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Managing Mailing Lists

Posted by timothy on from the please-unsubscribe dept.

Reader Luke Tymowski gets the credit for this review of another O'Reilly book, one whose subject probably would be useful to more people than books on any single programming language. The book is Managing Mailing Lists -- read on to see how Luke thinks this book stacks up even a few years after its release. Managing Mailing Lists author Alan Schwartz pages 261 publisher O'Reilly & Associates rating 8.5 reviewer Luke Tymowski ISBN 156592259x summary The definititive mailing list manager manual

The Scoop

You subscribe to a handful or more mailing lists. You decide to start one yourself to fill a hitherto ignored niche. Which Mailing List Manager (MLM) do you pick? Where do you find docs for them? And how best do you go about managing the list -- performing duties of list mom, keeping everyone on topic and trolls off the list?

Alan Schwartz's Managing Mailing Lists will be your trusty guide, provided, of course, you're using one of the MLMs he writes about (Majordomo, SmartList, LISTSERV Lite, Listproc). He summarises how mail and mailing lists work, the applicable RFCs, how to install and configure the MLMs, how to administer them, and provides a reference to each MLM. There's enough detail here to grow you from a basic, competent list administrator to a near-wizard.

What's to Like

Many of us may assume we already know all we need to know about the basics. I've been running my own server for several years, and I still learned a few things reading the introduction. In fact, it should be required reading for anyone running a mailing list, assuming they are not already in the wizard category. Too many list admins I know are comfortable running a list, but don't understand how all the components work together. Then they wet themselves when something doesn't work and they have no idea where to start looking for the problem.

Chapter 1 provides a quick tour of mail headers, the relevant RFCs, email programs (MUAs, eg, Mutt, Pine, Eudora), mail transport agents (MTAs, eg, Sendmail, Postfix, qmail, etc.), mail reflectors (eg, Sendmail's alias file), and, finally, mailing list managers -- what they do, don't do, what they do well, what they don't do well.

Chapter 2 describes how to design a mailing list, everything from naming a list, to posting guidelines, to moderated vs non-moderated, to exploders and newsgroups, to handling large lists, to choosing your MLM (philosophy, features, programming language and source availability). This is a long, detailed chapter with plenty of valuable tidbits for the budding list administrator.

Chapters 1 and 2 stand on their own as the best discussions of list construction, management and protocol that I've seen yet. Everyone running a list will find something of value here, whether technical or political.

Troubleshooting mailing lists is covered in Chapter 8 (why not chapter 3?), and, while it's very short, it is a good summary of what can go wrong and how to fix the problems. This is perhaps a more difficult issue today than when the book was published because in the fight to thwart spammers, it's getting more and more difficult to sort out just why some list members cannot receive or post mail.

Each MLM gets its own chapter to help you install and configure the product, a separate chapter to administer each MLM, and an appendix which summarises the commands and directory structures.

Did you know you can maintain your own lists with Sendmail? I didn't realise just how powerful it can be when combined with formail and procmail. While I use Postfix as my MTA, not Sendmail, Postfix is designed to replace Sendmail and therefore most of the tricks for managing lists with Sendmail work with Postfix. I spent a few entertaining hours exploring just what can be done with these few handy tools. Of course, neither Sendmail or Postfix are as powerful as dedicated MLMs, but you can still accomplish a great deal with them.

What's to Consider

The book is three years old. Each MLM was already a mature product when the book was written, and none have changed very much since 1998. The biggest change is perhaps with Listproc -- it's no longer free. But otherwise the products have undergone minor revisions, mostly bug fixes and small, new, features.

Mailman, the Gnu MLM isn't covered. But then Mailman either didn't exist in 1998 or it was too new to enjoy sufficient popularity to justify a chapter. qmail, which allows each user to create their own mailing lists, is mentioned, but isn't documented -- again probably because it didn't enjoy the popularity it has now.

Summary and Table of Contents

Managing Mailing Lists is still relevant despite its age. The introductory chapters are excellent and could hardly be improved upon if it were re-written today. If you're going to manage a mailing list and plan to use another MLM, Mailman for example, which is not documented in the book, it is still worthwhile buying a copy. If you already have some experience managing lists as either a list mom or server admin, you'll still learn something. It is, I think, one of the best O'Reilly books I've read -- and I've got a few shelves full of them.

  1. Introduction
  2. Designing a Mailing List
  3. Maintaining Lists with Listproc
  4. Maintaining Lists with Majordomo
  5. Maintaining Lists with Smartlist
  6. Maintaining Lists with LISTSERV Lite
  7. Maintaining Lists with Sendmail
  8. Troubleshooting Your Lists
  9. Administering Listproc
  10. Administering Majordomo
  11. Administering Smartlist
  12. Administering LISTSERV Lite
  1. Listproc Reference
  2. Majordomo Reference
  3. LISTSERV Lite Reference
  • Index

You can purchase this book at Fatbrain.

100 comments

  1. MLM by [amorphis] · · Score: 1

    MLM == Multi Level Marketing??

    This book is indeed spammer heaven!

    1. Re:MLM by gus+goose · · Score: 1

      MLM == Mailing List Manager ....

      --
      .. if only.
    2. Re:MLM by dataroach · · Score: 1

      Mailing List Manager

      Most people say "listserv" which isn't correct because LISTSERV is a mainframe based MLM.

    3. Re:MLM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet that Andrei guy from Russia who everybody here is championing has made good use of this book. He's the guy whose day job is working at a company that produces email address harvesting software for commercial sale.

      Kind of the poster boy for the hacker movement, one would presume. Mr. Spam himself.

  2. Next book... by Chocky2 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now all we need is a good book teaching subscribers how to _use_ mailing lists - not replying to all, not sending admin commands to the list, realising that digested people really don't like binaries.

    1. Re:Next book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      digested people really don't like binaries

      I'd think that if you were being digested you'd have other things in your mind than binaries.

    2. Re:Next book... by Christian+Goetze · · Score: 1

      I never understood why MLMs don't catch the reply to all thingy by simply removing any email address from this particular instance of the distribution list that already appears explicitly in a To: or Cc: in the header.

    3. Re:Next book... by Masem · · Score: 3, Informative
      At least with Majordomo (I'm *sure* that similar features have to be in the MLM), you can force replies to go only to the send (forcing that messages back to the list have to be changed before sent), catch most administravia requests and direct them to the list admin, and limit the size of messages that can be sent. Of course, specifically limiting attachments is not in there, but I would not be surprised to see newer mailers have this feature.

      However, it should be noted that typically, by default, new lists are created with "reply to list" enabled, no administravia checks, and no message limit.

      In other words, these common problems with mailing lists are a result of poor list management and not from stupid users (at least most of the time). It takes but a few seconds to prepare these configurations in Majordomo, and thus there's no reason to not have them if that is something you want to enforce on your list.

      --
      "Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
      "I can see my house from here!" - ST:
    4. Re:Next book... by Martin+Spamer · · Score: 2
      Now all we need is a good book teaching subscribers how to _use_ mailing lists
      - not replying to all, not sending admin commands to the list, realising that digested people really don't like binaries.


      Since no two mailing lists are ever quite the same, even when a common solution like Majodomo is used; Such a book would be be pretty difficult and near impossible to do well.

      To blame the 'end users' for poor admin is out of order, mailing lists users are rarely newbies; so if even the old hands making mistakes, it's usually because of the lack of consistency and poorly implemented/managed lists, not miss-use.

    5. Re:Next book... by jkthatcher · · Score: 1

      "In other words, these common problems with mailing lists are a result of poor list management and not from stupid users (at least most of the time). It takes but a few seconds to prepare these configurations in Majordomo, and thus there's no reason to not have them if that is something you want to enforce on your list."

      I agree - also some simple human measures - how hard would it be for upon a subscription to a list, to point out a reference to (or even just inline) a quick 'netiquette' page or somesuch highlighting.... (quoting original post)

      "...subscribers how to _use_ mailing lists - not replying to all, not sending admin commands to the list, realising that digested people really don't like binaries."

      Not one mailing list I have subscribed to (okay, only a small few, but still) have done this?

    6. Re:Next book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL

    7. Re:Next book... by tangram · · Score: 1

      Dude, if they won't read the admin posts they're not going to read a whole book.

      --tangram

    8. Re:Next book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, what we need is a good book teaching Slashdot writers how to write goodlier, as some of those writers would say.

      This is Miss Fussbudget speaking. I was Luke's 7th grade English teacher. Luke writes much better now than he did when he was my student, but he still has some rough edges. Take this sentence (I have interpolated numbers to itentify items in a series): "He SUMMARISES (1) how mail and mailing lists work, (2) the applicable RFCs, (3) how to install and configure the MLMs, (4) how to administer them, and (5) provides a reference to each MLM." Luke, dear, you can't say "he summarizes provides a reference." Item 5 does not belong in the series of items introduced by "summarises."

      What you were trying to write, Luke, is really a sentence with (1) a main series of two predicates -- "He SUMMARIZES . . . and PROVIDES" -- and (2) a subseries of four items -- items 1 through 4 -- under the first main-series item. So we need an "and" before the last item in the subseries (item 4); the "and" in front of item 5 serves only the main series and thus cannot reach back to item 4. Correct: He (1) summarizes (a) how mail and mailing lists work, (b) the applicable RFCs, (c) how to install and configure the MLMs, AND (d) how to administer them and (2) provides a reference to each MLM. By the way, Luke, do not put a comma before the "and" that introduces item 2. Rule: Don't put a comma between the two items in a series of only two items. For more information on this error, which is called "Series Out of Control," read THE CAREFUL WRITER, by Theodore M. Bernstein, page 414.

      I just wiped a tear from my eye, because I see another problem in the very next sentence. You have allowed yourself to become infatuated with trendy "vogue words," Luke, in this case "grow" used to describe the raising or increasing of something other than plants (e.g., "grow your opportunities"). That sort of speech isn't sophisticated; it's merely grating to the eye and ear, and it marks you as an undiscriminating copycat. You write, "There's enough detail here to GROW you from a basic . . . list administrator to a near-wizard." Please, Luke, use the right word: "change" or "turn" or "raise" or "elevate" -- or, if you want to be pretentious (I hope you don't), "metamorphose."

      To your credit, though, you don't use some of the other vogue words good writers avoid: "dialogue," "early on," "impact" (used as a verb), "address" (used as a verb), "conceptual framework," "look to," and "pro-active." Regarding "pro-active," I do remember that your physics teacher, Mr. Wimple, said you were his best student. You apparently were the only boy in the class who could grasp that the Seventh Law of Physics is "for every ACTION there is an equal and opposite reaction," not "for every PROACTION there is an equal and opposite reaction."

      Oh dear, oh dear me. Here's another mistake. This time it's subject-verb agreement, complicated by an or-nor mistake. You write, "Neither Sendmail OR Postfix ARE as powerful as . . ." Luke, you know the Queen would not approve of your use of either of the two words I have capitalized. First, NOR always goes with NEITHER; OR goes with EITHER. Second, what you essentially are trying to say is "neither one IS." Would you say "neither one ARE"?

      Now I guess you know why no man would ever marry me.

  3. Mailing list software by jd · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Unfortunately, the more useful a package is, the more likely the author/company is to get greedy and pull it out of the free osftware arena. Invariably, it then dies, slowly and horribly, from neglect and disuse. Amazingly, the author/company never figures out why this happens, and often repeats the process, elsewhere.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  4. "digested people"?! by Chris.Boyle · · Score: 1

    Well of course they don't like binaries. Would you really expect someone who's been reduced to their component substances to interpret attachments?

  5. No EZMLM? by Howie · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't run any mailing lists these days, but in the past ezmlm (the qmail mailing list manager) seemed pretty good and efficient. Odd to mention qmail but not it's MLM.

    --
    "don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
    1. Re:No EZMLM? by vulgarDPS · · Score: 0

      Yeah it's a good mailing list manage. TOO BAD ITS FOR QMAIL. I admin Qmail boxes all day, and qmail is horrible, horrible, horrible. Exim is the only mail server I would use by choice these days.

    2. Re:No EZMLM? by Howie · · Score: 2

      When we moved from sendmail to qmail it was like having a huge weight lifted from the server. The leraning curve is a bit steep on it sometimes, but generally I like it a lot. Very fast too.

      Still, whatever floats your boat.

      --
      "don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
    3. Re:No EZMLM? by Fruit · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with it? It's my personal favourite, the only thing I don't like is its license...

    4. Re:No EZMLM? by Kazir · · Score: 1

      Seems that O'Reilly has a new book out on Exim, by the creator of Exim, Philip Hazel.

  6. Hm by strombrg · · Score: 1, Insightful


    No mailman?

    'seems to be the big one these days. Maybe it wasn't, back when the book was written.

    1. Re:Hm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mailman's my favorite...

  7. Lyris by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At Digitized Solutions (http://www.digitized.com) I manage our mailing lists with the Lyris List Server software. Does anyone else use this software, and what are you experiences with it?

    thanks.

    dmarien
    www.dmarien.com

    1. Re:Lyris by gutter · · Score: 3, Informative
      I've done a lot of work with Lyris for a company called SKYLIST, who does list hosting, management, and Lyris customization and integration. I would highly recommend Lyris to anyone with list hosting needs.

      As far as managing mailing lists goes, Lyris is definitely the best software I've seen - it's fast, reliable, stable, handles bounces well, and has a nice web interface for managing everything. It is also extremely scalable. That's the great part.

      Unfortunately, I've also had some less than pleasant experiences trying to customize and extend Lyris. It has a number of hooks for extending it, and has it's own protocol (LCP) for communicating with the server that has bindings in Perl, Java, ASP, and PHP coming soon. However, the programming interfaces depend on a lot of knowledge about how Lyris does things internally, so expect a LOT of trial and error when doing anything interesting. That's the only bad part.

      Overall, if you're handling important lists, and don't want to spend too much time on administration, and can afford it (it can get pricey for the high end versions) I would highly recommend Lyris.

      --
      Check out DRM-free movies at http://www.bside.com
    2. Re:Lyris by johnwbyrd · · Score: 1

      Lyris rules. I have tried every other piece of software, and Lyris beats them all in terms of features and stability. John Buckman is very very good about getting feature requests into new releases; almost all changes to the Lyris codebase are now feature requests from regular users.

    3. Re:Lyris by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woov. Looks like www.digitized.com is a high end site.

      It displays a nice white rectangle on a near black backround, and a nice jigsaw icon titled "Click here to get the plugin".

      Too bad.

      Cheers,

      --fred

    4. Re:Lyris by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see it too. Too fancy for me.

  8. How to handle mailing list vacation responses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'm on a mailing list that if I post I get ten million 'I'm on vacation' responses. This is really annoying. The responses are not regular so I can't make a filter for them all. What do other people do?

    1. Re:How to handle mailing list vacation responses? by NerdSlayer · · Score: 1

      Tell them to switch software or change their configuration. If the reply-to header is set to be you, there's not a lot you can do about it. A good discussion list will have the reply to set as the list address, and a good List Manager software like Lyris will have filters and mail loop detectors to stop things like this from happening.

    2. Re:How to handle mailing list vacation responses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't there supposed to be some mail-header? X-preference: Bulk .. or something like that? I know that the unix "vacation" command respects some of these features. Other programs I don't know..

      goatse.cx!!!!!!!!!!!!
      (just to avoid positive moderation)

    3. Re:How to handle mailing list vacation responses? by Dead+Fart+Warrior · · Score: 1

      Hunt down each, and every one of them, pin them down, then fart into their nose until it bleeds.

      Works for me!

      --
      Quality straight pr0n goes here
  9. A really good book, but needs a few updates by whoppo · · Score: 4, Informative

    I maintain several mailing lists for both work and non-work related topics.. This is the book that taught me how to do it. It certainly gets a thumbs-up from me. It does, however, need a little updating. Maybe the next revision will include some of the newer MLM's.. like Mailman.. that'd be nice.. Also, for security reasons, newer versions of Sendmail want nothing to do with directories that are "group writable". This was a small headache until I decyphered the error messages, but should be taken into account in the next revision of the book. (yes.. I did send e-mail to O'Reilley about this one). Still, like most O'Reilley books... it's worth buying!

    --
    chown -R us /base
    1. Re:A really good book, but needs a few updates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does anyone know of any book that _does_ cover mailman? Or of any better documentation than list.org?

  10. digested people by wiredog · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ummm, digested people? Like, they've been eaten? I reckon that binaries aren't the only things they don't like.

    --

    Best Slashdot Co
    1. Re:digested people by MindStalker · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, you can often get mailing list as one daily "digest." He made up a word there, kinda sick really. But you know.

    2. Re:digested people by mazur · · Score: 1
      Redigested people?

      Ow, come on! Lets keep it mature, here!

      Stefan.

      --
      The truth shall make you fret. (Ankh-Morpork tImes motto)
  11. /me rubs eyes by A_Non_Moose · · Score: 1

    oh, man, at first read I thought it said
    "Maligning Mailing lists".

    Heh, are mailing lists *that bad*?

    Remember kids (Ed Asner voice) Reading Is Fundamental!! (RIF, god I'm {carbon?} dating my self, aren't I?)

    Moose

    --
    Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
  12. Egroups by Theovon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I find it easiest to just go to groups.yahoo.com and set up a mailing list on their servers.

    1. Re:Egroups by justinstreufert · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And I'm sure your subscribers enjoy all the little ads tacked on to every message. :)

      --
      "Why would God give us a waist if we wasn't supposed to rest our pants on it?" - Rev. Roy McDaniels
    2. Re:Egroups by pease1 · · Score: 2, Informative
      I use egroups and also Majordomo at home. I run MD for two reasons:

      • It's just fun to do it yourself. Hey, I'm a geek and a bit of a control freak;
      • There are some lists that I run that I want total control over privacy of the subscriber list and the best privacy I can get for the subscribers. I don't really trust the public/egroups systems in this regards. Did you read the changes Yahoo made to the egroups privacy statement when they bought it?

      This book taught me how to run Majordomo... I wasn't a complete novice, but mid level and it certainly made things go faster, especially when it came to hacking the aliases file and tying up some loose security knots.

    3. Re:Egroups by Howie · · Score: 1

      and still people ask how to unsubscribe, when it's printed on the bottom of EVERY message in the list!

      --
      "don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
    4. Re:Egroups by NerdSlayer · · Score: 1

      I'm sure he enjoys having free list hosting, though.

    5. Re:Egroups by Ghengis · · Score: 1

      Which brings back to a simple truth which, by the way, has made Bill Gates Billions.... The average user is an idiot.

      --

      "The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS

    6. Re:Egroups by jdavidb · · Score: 1

      A Christian mailing list I'm on is about ready to have me set up a real list on our own server instead of a Yahoo list specifically because of those ads. Lately Yahoo's been showing a lot of skin.

      --
      Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
  13. Not 8.5, maybe 4.5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have quite a number of O'Reilly books. This is the only one which I would not recommend.

    It is only for beginners, the typical O'Reilly detail is missing. New software is not considered at all. Advanced features of the software is nowhere to be found.

    1. Re:Not 8.5, maybe 4.5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There have been a number of other O'Reilly books recently that have been drivel.

      That comic book they published a year or so ago. And that Open Source crap with all the Raymondisms in it.

      It's a sad, sad day, because up until the mid nineties the O'Reilly books were near sacred.

  14. Why ezmlm+qmail is used for gcc.gnu.org lists by devphil · · Score: 3, Informative

    Some have wondered why GCC -- arguably the GNU project's flagship, after the Emacs operating system^W^Weditor -- doesn't use Mailman as a list manager.

    Because Mailman has an annoying tendency to be web-based. You have to do the little password thing to do anything interesting, like subscribe.

    ezmlm, on the other hand, is near totally administered via email commands. Which is damn handy for automating tasks. [Un]Subscribing, retrieving archives, even banning individual users, is all done by sending an email message to the software. Actually, the commands are all part of the address itself, you don't have to pay special attention to the formatting and contents of the subject line and message body.

    And qmail can handle a metric buttload of message in parallel, which is quite handy.

    --
    You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
    1. Re:Why ezmlm+qmail is used for gcc.gnu.org lists by jacobito · · Score: 2
      Because Mailman has an annoying tendency to be web-based. You have to do the little password thing to do anything interesting, like subscribe.

      i'm pretty sure that this statement is untrue, and that you can send list management commands via e-mail. unfortunately, the mailman documentation leaves something to be desired, and i couldn't find any specifics on this besides a few statements to the effect of "no, you don't have to use the web interface."

      having said that, the web interface is a good thing for most users; it's fairly slick and easy to use. why bother explaining majordomo/whatever commands to a newbie when you can just point him/her to a web page?

      jacob

    2. Re:Why ezmlm+qmail is used for gcc.gnu.org lists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Mailman has an annoying tendency to be web-based. You have to do the little password thing to do anything interesting, like subscribe.

      Anything you can do from the webpage, you can do from mail commands. At least learn how to use your software before you try to bitch about it.

    3. Re:Why ezmlm+qmail is used for gcc.gnu.org lists by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2
      You can also do the reverse...Majordomo is fully functional via its email-based interface, and for browser users, there is a Webmin module that will allow them to administer lists. We use it here for our secretaries and it's great.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    4. Re:Why ezmlm+qmail is used for gcc.gnu.org lists by devphil · · Score: 2
      i'm pretty sure that this statement is untrue, [...] unfortunately, the mailman documentation leaves something to be desired

      Okay. I'm willing to be corrected.

      why bother explaining majordomo/whatever commands to a newbie when you can just point him/her to a web page?

      Primarily, they do; for GCC at least. The page describing the mailing lists has a little sub/unsub form. Type in the address, select a list from a drop-down, etc, one click (whoa! amazon patent infringement! *grin*) and a server-size form assembles the empty email command.

      For non-newbies, however, it's also wonderful. When I go on vacation for long stretches of time, I have a shell script which sends empty emails to the "command" addresses, suspending my subscription. And at one point, I used an at(1) job to send the renewal command emails, so that the list mail would start arriving at the same time I returned. :-) Then the airline industry allowed their schedules to become totally stochastic and nondeterministic, so I don't try to predict the return time anymore.

      --
      You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
    5. Re:Why ezmlm+qmail is used for gcc.gnu.org lists by Jamie+Zawinski · · Score: 2

      As a user, I hate Mailman.

      Compare and contrast this sequence of actions:

      With sane mailing list software:

      • Mail "unsubscribe" to "foo-request".
      • Get "please confirm" mail back.
      • Reply.
      • Done.

      With Mailman:

      • Mail "unsubscribe" to "foo-request".
      • Get "I don't understand that" mail back.
      • Find the admin URL in that web page.
      • Load the web page.
      • Try to log in.
      • Realize you don't remember the password it generated for you, because you haven't ever used it even once.
      • Find the "mail me my password" button.
      • Wait for the password to arrive.
      • Go back to the web page.
      • Try to log in.
      • Waste some more time trying before you realize it doesn't work without cookies.
      • Turn cookies back on.
      • Log in.
      • Find the unsubscribe link.
      • Done.

      Now which was easier?

      I use Smartlist for all my mailing lists. It's a huge pain in the ass to configure, but it does the "reply to this to confirm" trick completely painlessly from the end user's point of view, and not having that is a deal breaker for me.

    6. Re:Why ezmlm+qmail is used for gcc.gnu.org lists by jacobito · · Score: 2
      Good point. I've been bitten by that sort of thing myself before -- needing a password I didn't even know I had.

      In fairness to mailman, though, if you send a message with the body "unsubscribe" to foo-request, it will respond with a usage statement for the unsubscribe command. But then you're back to needing to know your password. :)

      I imagine that the password feature is an attempt to cut down on unsolicited/unintended subscriptions and unsubscriptions. I've never been the victim of a prank unsubscription myself, though. :)

      Nevertheless, I still like mailman's web interface. I manage a few majordomo mailing lists, and I ended up rolling a crude web interface because ordinary joes don't grok the e-mail interface and would constantly send admin requests to the mailing list itself. If you tell them just to go to http://blah.com/list.cgi, they usually can deal with that just fine.

      Anyway, to each his own...

    7. Re:Why ezmlm+qmail is used for gcc.gnu.org lists by Jamie+Zawinski · · Score: 2

      I imagine that the password feature is an attempt to cut down on unsolicited/unintended subscriptions and unsubscriptions. I've never been the victim of a prank unsubscription myself, though. :)

      But that's exactly my point: it doesn't work for that. By which I mean, it provides no more protection than the "reply to this message to be subscribed" mechanism. So long as you can tell the web page to mail you your password, the only real validation that is going on is that the person issueing the subscribe request is a person capable of reading mail sent to the address they are subscribing.

      It's important that mailing list software do this check, to avoid prank subscriptions. But the "reply to this" method is N less steps than the password-I-don't-know-I-have method, while being absolutely equivalent from a security point of view.

      So the password thing is merely irritating and a waste of time: it has no benefits.

  15. Insightful? Read the review by Indomitus · · Score: 1

    If you read the last couple of paragraphs of the review, you'll see that he mentions mailman.

    Moderators: you should at least be reading the articles before you start throwing mod points around.

  16. Does this deserve a book review by boxless · · Score: 0

    I hardly think that the subject could fill a book. It certainly doesn't need a review. This seems like the classic topic that Slashdotters would simply research on the web, and not run to ora.com just because the books look so cool sitting on your shelf.

  17. eScribe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Here's a tip for those of you that use MLMs without archiving functionality: eScribe is a service that subscribes a bot to your mailing list and creates a searchable online archive. Very helpful.

  18. Bad interface design by Pseudonymus+Bosch · · Score: 3, Insightful

    not sending admin commands to the list

    As Jakob Nielsen says, "provide a special email address for each of the main commands: subscribe, unsubscribe, post discussion group message, etc. Keep the list short and there is a chance that users will understand it".

    You should get better software if you can't get better users.

    --
    __
    Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
    GW Bu
  19. 0 Sales by Sloppy · · Score: 2

    Useless idea for a book, IMHO. People who read books and look up how to do things, don't commit the acts you describe.

    But I guess such a book might make sense as a "gift item." Still, I predict that publishing such a book would be a great way to lose money.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    1. Re:0 Sales by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 2

      Useless idea for a book, IMHO.

      You've obviously never been thrown into the position of Mailing List Maintainer for an active list :)

      It's a harrowing experience on an active list (the list I was thrust into has 400+ members at any given time with people subscribing and unsubscribing constantly, and averages 100+ messages per day). A book like this would have been an invaluable asset. Hell I still might pick it up.

      One word to those who'll listen: If you're using Majordomo and Sendmail, use Bulkmailer. It gave me a logarithmic speed increase (literally: a 20 minute delivery became a 2 minute delivery time).

      --
      by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
  20. It's not the technology by johnwbyrd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've set up and run mailing lists with hundreds of users, and one list has run continuously for nearly ten years. It strikes me that what these "introduction to mailing lists" books really need is a chapter on the practical, human aspects of running a mailing list. I think that most of the Slashdot crowd really wouldn't have any problems with the technology of mailing lists. The most difficult aspect of running a newspaper is not necessarily getting the type pressed upon the page.

    If we take mailing list technology as a given, there are still some pieces of advice that I think are required for anyone running a mailing list:

    - Always moderate your mailing list. There are too many e-mail worms and other nasty crap that happens via e-mail these days. It's possible to infect hundreds of people instantaneously via an unmoderated mailing list. This stuff can be caught if a human reads every submission.

    - Moderate daily. People hate seeing their messages sit in queue for too long.

    - Moderate mistakes. One-line "I agree" posts, "fuck you" posts, posts that clearly were not intended for the list, and empty posts should never go to the list.

    - Resist the urge to limit discussion. If someone has an opinion that you disagree with, this is exactly the sort of thing that you want to see on your list. Most moderators make the mistake (as they do on Slashdot) that because they disagree with the poster's opinion, it shouldn't be seen by anyone. A healthy disagreement is critical to the survival of any online forum.

    1. Re:It's not the technology by Skater · · Score: 1

      I used to run a moderated list (FYI, it was a mailing list for a bicycling team that I was on), and the users hated it: "You're limiting our free speech!!" And other such crap.

      For example, someone would post a "For sale" message. Someone else would reply to it, but send it to the entire list. That's why we were moderating.

      The solution hit me one day while I was dozing. Change the list so that replies go to the original sender rather than the list (unless you hit reply to all). Worked like a charm, everyone was quite happy. And I didn't have to read a dozen or so messages a day just to approve them. (I also took the opportunity to add a header to the subject line and some other things to make it easier to use.)

      I still subscribe to the list though I no longer run it. They're still using those settings. :)

      --RJ

    2. Re:It's not the technology by kimihia · · Score: 1

      I do agree. Its nice to have a package dependant HOWTO, but that can be found in the man pages (hopefully). I can find all I want at ezmlm.org, but it doesn't tell me how to help keeping the people on the list happy.

      They need to teach you:

      • Reply-to munging, and why not to do it
      • List-* (RFC 2368?)
      • Proper footers and unsubscription instructions
      • Responsible mailing
      • List useability (see Nielson)
      • Etiquette

      Not how to give sendmail a -HUP.

    3. Re:It's not the technology by johnwbyrd · · Score: 1

      The Reply-To munging question is worth at least a chapter in itself; there are the technical considerations (Lyris can do it, as can Listserv, but some mail programs ignore it anyway and simply reply to the From field!) and there is the moderation concern that you'll get a bunch of mail directed to your list that was never intended to go there.

      There is no correct solution to Reply-To that works for everybody. I personally put the effort into manually forwarding messages to people that were incorrectly intended for the list. This means that discussions tend to end up on the list that might have originally been private. YMMV.

  21. Which is the best? by Futurepower(tm) · · Score: 2


    The author of the review says, "Managing Mailing Lists is still relevant despite its age." Translation: This book may be useless if you are picking a mailing list manager now.

    What is the best mailing list software? What is the best open source mailing list software, if the answer is different?


    What should be the Response to Violence?

    --
    Bush's education improvements were
    1. Re:Which is the best? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is the best mailing list software? What is the best open source mailing list software, if the answer is different?

      Probably, as most poen source software tends to suck on the balls of capatalism.

    2. Re:Which is the best? by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 2
      ezmlm seems to be a good mailing list manager if you have qmail installed. I don't believe it works with other MTAs. Users can create their own mailing lists, which is (I believe) a completely novel feature. There are some good aspects to the interface too, which uses email addresses for most of the commands (again, possible because of the integration with qmail).

      Mailman is a pretty good program. It's relatively easy to set up, and includes the whole bundle -- mailing lists, archiving, and web interface. These are all available for the other MLMs, but not generally bundled. I find Mailman's passwords annoying and useless (why do I need another completely unsecure password?) -- otherwise the interface is fairly good. I don't know about other MTAs, but I've set up Exim so that creating mailing lists is easy (no need to edit /etc/aliases).

      No one should ever use listproc or listserv, they are old and pointless. I don't know anything about Smartlist. Majordomo is still an option -- I don't think it offers any features over ezmlm or Mailman, but with some work can be at least as functional. Still, I found it a little awkard to work with, and it seemed to take considerable work to patch in all the features that more modern MLMs have aquired.

      I don't know why you'd ever want to use a commercial MLM. The free/OSS programs are all entirely sufficient -- if you are having problems setting them up, pay a consultant to help you. You'll get better service than you would with shrink-wrap software anyway. I know the Qmail site has a list of consultants for hire.

    3. Re:Which is the best? by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 2
      One of the reasons Qmail is hard to configure is because licensing keeps it from being well packaged. You have to make it yourself. The other problem is that Qmail does all sorts of things different from other Unix services -- it sets up a whole alternate infrastructure. It might be a good infrastructure even... but it's still nonconventional and thus somewhat annoying. lifewithqmail.com does a decent job of leading you through it.

      I use Debian, and Exim is the default MTA. I like it well enough. It's dead simple to set up Mailman as well -- you just install the package and you're off (though to avoid editing /etc/aliases you'll have to do some digging -- I wouldn't bother unless you were making lots of lists or someone untrained was going to make lists). I don't know about other distributions.

  22. Majordomo 2 by Earl+Shannon · · Score: 1

    I've been involved in managina an email list server for about five years now. We at NCSU recently switched from Listprob 8.0 to Majordomo2. This was a rough experience for some of our list owners but almost everyone agrees that the new software is much nicer. So, for anyone looking for a MLM, I would recomment it. And you can look ours over at http://lists.ncsu.edu.

    --
    -- Some people say they can tell the time by looking at the Sun, but I have trouble seeing the numbers.
  23. Corrections by rickmoen · · Score: 2

    Because Mailman has an annoying tendency to be web-based. You have to do the little password thing to do anything interesting, like subscribe.

    The premise is incorrect. To see the extremely extensive list of e-mail-accessible options for any Mailman mailing list, send message text "help" to [listname-]request@[listserverhost].

    Some have wondered why GCC -- arguably the GNU project's flagship, after the Emacs operating system^W^Weditor -- doesn't use Mailman as a list manager.

    Almost certainly because it was set up a long time ago, before Mailman was available.

    Rick Moen
    rick@linuxmafia.com
  24. ezmlm by hyperstation · · Score: 1

    too bad there's not a section on ezmlm, the mailing list manager for qmail

    http://cr.yp.to/ezmlm.html

    1. Re:ezmlm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hey...it's the spammers handbook!

  25. Out of date? by rixdaffy · · Score: 3, Interesting


    this book has been released back in 1998 (which is centuries ago in Internet time :) ) and currently there's a lot of more choices when it comes to mailinglistsoftware...and not to forget the important technologies used (ldap directories, databases) it's kinda weird to review it now.
    maybe it's time for O'reilly to make a 2nd edition though...

    Ricardo.

    1. Re:Out of date? by alansz · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Thanks for the kind review and the useful comments. I'm pleased that the book still has some value today, though I agree that the specific MLMs covered are no longer current -- I've just sent a copy of this page to O'Reilly along with a suggestion that we do a second edition, so we'll see what they say!

      My playlist for MML2 would include mailman, majordomo2, listar, and ezmlm; greater discussion of non-sendmail MTAs (qmail, postfix, maybe exim), coverage of commercial options (running your own with lyris/listproc vs outsourcing vs. egroups.com approaches), and greater depth in terms of list policy, spam issues, legalities, and tips for specific kinds of lists (like opt-in marketing to established customers)

      It was a thrill to see this on slashdot. :)

      - Alan Schwartz (author of Managing Mailing Lists)

  26. What about Listar? by UnixMan · · Score: 1

    There is no mention of listar (http://www.listar.org/), one of the best mialing list programs out there.

  27. Any mention of legal liability? by cgadd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If not, there should be. There is a pending lawsuit against the list manager and the ISP hosting the list, because of comments made on a mailing list.

    More info (including the full text of the complaint) is available at http://216.168.47.67/psw/

    The lawsuit is being brought by a merchant, against the list manager, and several list members. The list members had simply posted their negative comments about the quality (or lack thereof) of service they received from the merchant.

  28. More useful than all the books on C? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2


    "one whose subject probably would be useful to more people than books on any single programming language. "

    I am guessing that this line comes from Timothy. Does he really think there are more people managing mailing lists than writing software in, for example, C? Bizzare!

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  29. Distribution only? by tomRakewell · · Score: 1

    I've been looking for a nice distribution-only list. Until now, I've used majordomo and GNU Mailman, but in each case I've had to spend a lot of time configuring them to reject posts, prohibit the detection of other lists, etc. I guess I feel like Majordomo/Mailman are just too much tool for what I'm doing.

    I think the features that are needed are:
    - fast delivery/processing
    - bounce detection/removal
    - automatic unsubscribe facilities

    Anybody know of any good distribution only lists?

  30. Invalid Form Key by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just tried to post something and failed. My post was rejected with a message that said "Invalid Form Key." That message was followed by a mysterious string of letters and numbers (totally meaningless to me) and another message: "Please choose 'formkey' for the category." Neither the message nor the page nor the preceding page had any formkey window; there was no way to choose.

    Will someone please explain what this is all about, what I did wrong, and what I should have done.

  31. Which is the best? by Futurepower(tm) · · Score: 2


    Thanks for the great answer. I was impressed with the QMail web site.

    Some of the posts have said that QMail is difficult to configure. It that true?

    What would you recommend, Exim or EZMLM?

    --
    Bush's education improvements were
  32. Which is the best e-mail package? by Futurepower(tm) · · Score: 2


    Thanks again. "Life with QMail" is astonishingly well-written.

    However, open source software suffers from a high implementation cost. For example, here is a statement from "Life with QMail":

    "For example, to run rblsmtpd under tcpserver, try something like: [script]"

    I'm guessing that it would take maybe 50 hours to get started with QMail and EzMLM. So, realistically, it is a $3,000 package, or some amount like that.

    Thanks again for the help. You've provided what's usually missing: top level help. I can handle the details once I choose what area needs to be handled.

    --
    Bush's education improvements were