Ellison's ID Card Plan Gets More Attention

fredbox writes: "A Mercury News article reports Oracle CEO Larry Ellison and John Ashcroft have been meeting to discuss creation of a national ID database including fingerprints, facial scans, etc. Other supporters include Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNealy. They claim these cards would be 'voluntary', much as the act of leaving your home or purchasing groceries are voluntary activities." Update: 10/18 01:48 GMT by M : Hah! btempleton writes: "Here is a prototype of Larry Ellison's new national ID card."

Comments

huh?

[Patrick Cable II]

Voluntary? Whats the point then? A Drivers license is voluntary.

Re:huh?

[pherris]

Patrick Cable II said:
"Voluntary? Whats the point then? A Drivers license is voluntary."

But try to live almost any where in this country without a driver's license or auto. Or imagine your local supermarket saying that you "need" one of these cards to shop there. Don't like it? They'll say "Go someplace else. We're doing this for 'National Security'."

The SSN system has been so exploited by big business it's not even funny. This is a dream come true for those that want to track your life. I guess it's voluntary if you don't need to work, eat or receive health care. Sad.

Pherris

Re:huh?

[pherris]

An AC said:
Honestly, who wants to track your life?

Hey! If I had a life I'd be offended by that =). Who wants my (or anyone elses) life's story? The company that thinks I need to buy their product(s) because of my choices. For example:

I've bought a six pack of Bud (it lasts the week) and a large pizza most every Friday night for the last few years. In turn:

Coors wants to me buy their beer and sends me coupons. Time to deal with more junk snailmail/email.

My auto insurance company decides to "adjust" my rates because I drink. Time to work a little overtime.

My employer also decides that my eating and drinking habits could cost them money in lost hours of productivity, possible tardiness, an "on the job" injury or just too fat and drunk to show up in the future. Time to find a new job.

The police, while on a routine cruise, have been automaticly been running everyone's license plate checking for possible criminals. On Saturday morning they run my plate, see I normally have a few cold ones on Fridays and want to see if I'm sober. Time to assume the position.

Whatever happenned to the idea of privacy? What people do in their own lifes, so long as it doesn't hurt someone else, should not be the business of any goverment or companies.

pherris

heh...

[caseydk]

Yeah, it'll be really cute when you can't fly on a plane, ride a train, get a credit card, open a bank account, or get a job without one...

Not to mention have email...

What the hell for?

[CaptainCarrot]

Could someone in the press pleas at least ask the damn question? To wit: how exactly would these ID cards have prevented the events of 9/11? The terrorists didn't have to lie about their names to get on the airplanes, they just had to buy the tickets!

Re:What the hell for?

[rtaylor]

Hello!!! 4 guys who were known terrorists (or had watches on their names) did buy tickets on the same airplane and were allowed to do so without questions, comments, or concern.

Having an ID card won't accomplish anything unless someone actually checks the data.

Guide to air travel in America

[The Milky Bar Kid]

The cards also would be instantly checked against a new national database. That database would base would link existing criminal and immigration data to screen out potential terrorists.

But AFAIK, none of the terrorists HAD criminal records. They were perfectly good citizens as far as anyone knew up until getting on those planes. So criminal data's no good.

Ah, but they did just emigrate from Afghanistan, or Iraq. That would show up on the immigration data.

So what this suggests to me, is that if you've just immigrated from Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd be allowing another thirty minutes at the airport, to deal with all those 'are you a terrorist' questions. Because that's the only thing that separated all those terrorists from the rest of the travellers.

It'd be good to see a policy from the US that didn't assume that terrorists have a big flashing sign on their forehead that says "I AM A TERRORIST." Because that's how I think they're planning on telling Osama Bin Laden from all the other robed, bearded guys carrying AK47s in Afghanistan.

We already HAVE national ID cards!...

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

When was the last time you heard of any US citizen being able to do much without presenting their social security number?

How long before Feinstein sells (ahem, I mean, "legislates") access to this database to major publishers and media conglomerates? After all, with all the talk of encryption crippling and government-mandated copy-prevention lately, perhaps the mysterious terrorists are financing their operations by selling bootleg DVDs (perhaps even with secret terrorist messages steganographically embedded in the signal! Gasp!) and using hacked no-back-door versions of commercial encryption software, so, just in case, we should probably let MPAA and BSA use the database to correlate with any 'suspicious' activity they might notice...

You know, as recent as a year or so ago, the above would have sounded like paranoid ranting to me. It worries me that it no longer does...

Ashcroft & Fienstien like it?

[Tassach]

If Ashcroft and Fienstien both like it, it HAS to be a REALLY bad idea. Come on, I can't think of many people who have worse records when it comes to undermining the Bill of Rights than those two.

It would be funny if they were not serious

[Kefaa]

The card would contain basic information about the holder, including Social Security number, and would be linked to a federal database containing detailed personal data, including digital records of the person's thumbprint, palm print, face or eyes.

Later of course we could expand it for more specific information like your health records, financial status, political slant, religious affiliations and employment history. Of course you would not have to provide this to anyone else, but then again they would not have to hire you, provide products or services, and extend credit to you.

To handle these issues I am certain we will be asked to trust them. And should it prove to be an issue You they will take it up in a future bill.

I am reminded of the principle of SAM (Specific, Attainable, and Measurable). I then ask the simple question (the same I posed for cryptography "back doors"), "If this was in place on 9/11, would it have stopped the terrorists?" Ding-ding-ding, I am sorry, but at last count something like 14 of the hijackers were unknown to anyone. They would have had cards that allowed them to get on without an issue.

"But what about the others? They would have been stopped." No, they would not have been on to begin with, or they would have paid someone to create or reprogram cards.

So what will work? With regards to planes, no one on a plane will believe a hijacker is anything but suicidal. Even if they are not, and really just want money. Sorry, we are going to be looking out for ourselves and each other. The best security you can ever hope to find.

Ellison is a lying sack of shit

[legLess]

Mod me down for the salty language if you want, but damnit, he really is. This is a bald-faced lie, straight from the article:

"I made this offer not because the government can't afford to pay for the software, but because I shut up the critics who were saying, 'Gee, Larry Ellison wants to build a national database because he wants to sell more databases,' which is pretty cynical and bizarre. What's in it for me is the same thing that's in it for you: a safer America." emphasis mine

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. What's in it for him is a death-grip on the identities of the entire country. What's in it for him is becoming as important as a public utility, but having all the benefits of a for-profit corporation. What's in it for him is that this is the only way he'll ever get richer and more important than Bill Gates, and he's got a woody the size of Florida.

National ID card = eBay rating system

[swordboy]

Sure,

It may make you *feel* safe, but when it comes down to it, anyone with a card or a good eBay rating can really screw you over.

By all accounts, many of the terrorists were quiet, neighborly people. An ID card will only allow for these people to be registered. Secuirty is not something that exists. This card is just something to make us think that it does.

Re:Too hard to keep up with...

[sharkey]

It certainly does. My parents paper-carrier has a 55+ years-old tattoo of blue numbers on his wrist. Did I mention that he is Jewish, and hails from Germany?

ID cards in Europe inefficient against terrorism

[SysKoll]

What is the point in this proposal? Is it to make the country more secure against illegal aliens that might be dormant terrorists? Is it to prevent criminals from usurping other people's ID?

If these are indeed the goals, then I'd suggest to take a look at developed countries that already have implemented nation-wide ID cards. Namely, Europe. Why, it's fascinating.

Because you see, illegal immigration is totally out of control in Europe. As for terrorism, Spain (Basque Separatist movements), France (Corsican Separatists, Basques, Muslims), UK (IRA), as well as Greece, Italy and Germany have had severe terrorist attacks in the 1990s in spite of strict ID card policies.

How come these countries can harbor terrorists in spite of mandatory ID cards, you ask? It's because ID cards are not a silver bullet against crime. First, they can be forged. Always. France recently replaced its obsolete ID card with an embossed, hologramed, specially printed ID card, the deployment of which was a very expensive program. All this achieved was to raise the cost of a fake ID to about 5000FF ($600-700) on the black market. The best forgeries come of course from corrupt officials who fabricated cards with fake IDs using the state-approved machines.

So unless you have totally non-corrupt officials, all you're going to achieve is put terrorism out of reach of poor students. That's a tempting solution considering what is said in some literature circles after a few vodkas. But I don't think it will be the best one.

Look at Europe, for Heaven's sake, because they already did all the stupid things before us!

-- SysKoll