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Free PCs Not AfFordable
rakerman writes: "Ford Cancels Computer Giveaway Program. I guess their 'Model E' program turned out to be an Edsel." We did at least one story about this at the time (and a Katz essay). A lot of people pointed out that the United Auto Workers union was the driving force (ha-ha) behind this program initially.
didn't they see that other commercial when they gave a free puter to everyone and the omish peeps took the wire...................
anyway, they should do more research first.
Runnin' On Empty
if i ever meet richard m stallman i will KICK HIS ASS!
Gentlemen, the time has come for a serious discussion on whether or not to continue using C for serious programming projects. As I will explain, I feel that C needs to be retired, much the same way that Fortran, Cobol and Perl have been. Furthermore, allow me to be so bold as to suggest a superior replacement to this outdated language.
To give you a little background on this subject, I was recently asked to develop a client/server project on a Unix platform for a Fortune 500 company. While I've never coded in C before I have coded in VB for fifteen years, and in Java for over ten, I was stunned to see how poorly C fared compared to these two, more low-level languages.
C's biggest difficulty, as we all know, is the fact that it is by far one of the slowest languages in existance, especially when compared to more modern languages such as Java. Although the reasons for this are varied, the main reasons seems to be the way C requires a programmer to laboriously work with chunks of memory.
Requiring a programmer to manipulate blocks of memory is a tedious way to program. This was satisfactory back in the early days of coding, but then again, so were punchcards. By using what are called "pointers" a C programmer is basically requiring the computer to do three sets of work rather than one. The first time requires the computer to duplicate whatever is stored in the memory space "pointed to" by the pointer. The second time requires it to perform the needed operation on this space. Finally the computer must delete the duplicate set and set the values of the original accordingly.
Clearly this is a horrendous use of resources and the chief reason why C is so slow. When one looks at a more modern (and a more serious) programming language like Java or, even better, Visual Basic, that lacks such archaic coding styles, one will also note a serious speed increase over C.
So what does this mean for the programming community? I think clearly that C needs to be abandonded. There are two candidates that would be a suitable replacement for it. Those are Java and Visual Basic.
Having programmed in both for many years, I believe that VB has the edge. Not only is it slightly faster than Java its also much easier to code in. I found C to be confusing, frightening and intimidating with its non-GUI-based coding style. Furthermore, I like to see the source code of the projects I work with. Java's source seems to be under the monopolistic thumb of Sun much the way that GCC is obscured from us by the marketing people at the FSF. Microsoft's "shared source" under which Visual Basic is released definately seems to be the most fair and reasonable of all the licenses in existance, with none of the harsh restrictions of the BSD license. It also lacks the GPLs requirement that anything coded with its tools becomes property of the FSF.
I hope to see a switch to VB very soon. I've already spoken with various luminaries in the *nix coding world and most are eager to begin to transition. Having just gotten off the phone with Mr. Alan Cox, I can say that he is quite thrilled with the speed increases that will occur when the Linux kernel is completely rewritten in Visual Basic. Richard Stallman plans to support this, and hopes that the great Swede himself, Linus Torvaldis, won't object to renaming Linux to VB/Linux. Although not a C coder himself, I'm told that Slashdot's very own Admiral Taco will support this on his web site.
Thank you for your time. Happy coding.
Egg Troll
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
if i ever meet the moderator who modded this down i will KICK HIS ASS unless he's a she in which case i will RANT INCOHERENTLY!
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
They'll cut your dick in half, and feed it to a pig,
And though it hurts you'll laugh, and dance a dickless jig!
Jesus, Michael, learn to give your posts at least a cursory fucking spell check before you hit that submit button. I mean, christ, i know you want to get back to downloading bestiality clips but settle down long enough to look your posts over.
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
first nigger
I think Ford can re-tool all of their plants right now if it wasn't for the auto unions. Re-tooling plants for full automation will greatly decrease the number of workers needed, and cut the unions' power. So of course they would be against it and threaten to strike.
So we are left overpaying for our cars to keep an out of date organization alive.
...and all I got was a few lousy mpegs and a grossly overpiced ribbon.
My cat's breath smells like cat food.--R. Wiggums
Why not charge for the PCs and more for internet access to cover their costs and still be a good deal for the employees?
I know people that have it and love it. I'm sure they'd be willing to pay more for it.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
I would like to eat out Claire Danes's pussy.
Mad propz to panfried anal worms. Did you know that Mr Goatse keeps some in there?
:o)
It seems like a lot of companies are abandoning those visionary benefits they began to offer a few years back. My company had planned to equip EVERY computer for videoconferencing. Can you believe?
They could have kept the program alive because it would have been more cost effective.
You can read even more into this than Ford is saying. Not only is Ford making a statement that they can't afford to give PC's to their employees, they're also implying a couple of other things.
First, giving your staff free PC's isn't enough of a benefit to impress most of your staff. Let's face it, if you're working for a union-driven company like Ford, you're not living on Ramen Noodles, and you can probably afford any one of the dozens of el cheapo PC's being served up for the masses. Most of us would rather be given a credit at Best Buy to purchase the PC we really want, or maybe even peripherals if we already own a PC.
Second, in this economy, employee perks are the last thing from anybody's mind. Ford started this when employees were hard to find. Fast forward to today: due to massive layoffs everywhere, people are much easier to come by, and you don't have to go flashing perks in order to get people on board. Giving stuff away to your staff is an increasingly hard sell to the shareholders.
Third, the shareholders just got informed that they're getting decreased dividends for the first time that I can remember. Ford's always been a dividend-heavy company, and I'm sure it's hard for them to rationalize giving away PCs to their staff when their investors are getting less returns. Giveaways are associated with a dotcom, and typically the giveaways are cut just before the jobs are cut. Look out...
What's your damage, Heather?
It's the economy, stupid!
Now, back to CNN (Cheney News Network)
Everyone knows that the tastiest part of Claire Danes is her tight little bung. I would lap at her asshole like a kitten at a bowl of cream. Yes I would.
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Reactions to that statement from computer-savvy Ford employees are probably ranging from "I'm glad they stopped the giveway program" to "what are they smoking ?".
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Henry Ford is rolling over in his grave...
My parents and in-laws were recipients of the Ford giveaway. It amounted to about $500 towards the cost of the system, plus the dial-up account. IMO, the giveaway was useful. I couldn't convice my father-in-law that his 16MB P-60 just didn't have the horsepower to run his apps. The Ford giveaway saved me some forced tech hours.
DaimlerChrysler decided not to give away PC's, but instead they said, "we'll give you AOL." (great, more AOL users) For $2/month, DCX employees get AOL access and a special DaimlerChrysler portal site with access to benefit information and company news. (Hmmm, $2/month for international dial-up, we contractors lose out again)
Well, the UAW didn't like it enough. So, they came up with a "free" PC "giveaway" program too. The National Training Center (UAW-NTC)provided a program to give out computers from a company called Union Friendly. (a well known and respected vendor?) No, I'm not making this up, really!
For weeks, I had hourly UAW employees asking me which system they should get. (such is the life as the resident geek) The low end being a Celeron 500 (64MB RAM, 10GB, Win-ME), with a contribution of less than $200. Warranty was something like 90 days. The upgrade options were (*ahem*) "very impressive." (ok, that's got me laughing- $600 for 64MB of ram and 10GB of disk)
I've seen some of their systems in the UAW/NTC training rooms (not on our corp network), and they're pretty much basement built systems. With reliabilty and tech support to match.
I told people to compare the options, item for item, against Best Buy, CompUSA, Dell, and Gateway (can't make it hard on these people, many can't handle changing their password every month). Several who followed through, bought a decent PC from Dell.
I don't know how long UAW/NTC will keep their deal going, but somebody's probably making a few extra bucks for this Christmas season.
I wonder if the UAW did anything like this for GM employees?
Ford's been having some serious economic trouble lately, but I think they're justified.
What would have been more sensible would have been to provide computer training (like say RedHat certification or something like that), which would actually help the employee progress in their career.
Simply giving them a PC was not a structured approach. My guess is that a lot of these PCs ended up being used for the kids to do their homework on, or more likely to play games.
Ford is right to think of innovative ways to increase computer literacy, but it looks like they didn't put enough thought into the 'Model E' project.
One the one hand thousands of people have to look for work.
On the other, millions pay more for cars or buy cars elsewhere.
I'm not saying I don't mind being unemployed (I'm unemployed now, and I mind). I'm saying I mind paying someone to do what amounts to busywork because TheEvilCorp won't line up a job for their employees before obsoleting them.
Unions should be more than anti-corporate strong-arming. They should support their members in a changing world. They should educate their members and prepare them for layoffs instead of converting their union dues into dead-end jobs defended by lawyers.
Fix Or Repair Daily
Not much. Fucking tired right now. I might take a nap. You?
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
yhl. hand.
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
I think the proof is the simple fact that cars made in places such as Mexico, where the labour force is paid an iota of the price of the United States/Canadian auto labour force, cost just as much. VW, Chrysler, Ford : They've all opened plants there (many companies have opened plants based upon "low wages" and quickly pulled out after discovering that wages are only one small part of running a factory) and strangely I still see the price of cars rising and rising, yet at the same time the natural unemployment rate increases as an entire sector of workers is displaced. The idea that unions increase the cost of cars substantially is not based in any reality whatsoever.
Gee, what happened to that "digital divide" catchphrase? Forked tongued environmentalists out there are complaining about computers that are all piled up in junkyards because they're "obsolete" (read: won't run Quake 3 or Windows XP). Microsoft hasn't come up with a genuine new feature for MS Word since 2.0! Regardless, the most expensive computers are the ones with the latest graphics card, the zippiest hard drive, the most power-consuming processor. Imagine that!
The problem is, the initiative was only started a short time ago. This will most likely prompt other corporations to not even try something of this magnitude, this scale, and this... importance. Tell me the last time that a multi-billion dollar corporation gave you a computer (excepting your five finger discounts) and all of your co-workers a computer, and I'll tell you how pigs fly.
As to all this other talk about the jobs, in the most part these people have worked there all their lives, and their fathers and grandfathers. It would probably be assumed that they know the innards of a ford engine from top to bottom, but not a thing about computers. Some may, who knows? Nothing against the guys, but it probably didn't interest them. Now take those guys out of the setting (and women too) and tell them bye, good luck, don't let the door hit your bum on the way out, and maybe, just maybe, they might get interested in other things, fast. Could be good, could be bad... Time will only tell.
millions of people know how to hack linux. How many jobs are there for that?
A brilliant troll! I applaud you, and bow to your skill. I am in the presence of a master!
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
sixty-fourth post.
Whats the fucking deal with these invalid form keys? I had a beautiful flame for that nobgobbler Jon Katz and I got an invalid form key on it. WTF?!
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Gee whiz, you'd think these guys don't have an envelope with a back on it. 166,000 people each got a computer. In early 2000, 500MHz Celeron, 4G disk, printer, modem, cdrom, speakers, monitor, rudimentary software. A thousand bucks a pop in quantity? They were charging $5 a month for net service, probably broke even on that. So $166 million for the 166k folks that they equipped. By now, such a machine can be had for less than $500, so to cover everyone it might have come to $250M in all. Sssh, it's a secret.
fuck john katz. he's an idiot.
he's also Michael's lover.
We got an really good troll rate going here. This kicks ass yeah!.
Weekend trolling yeah. PC's suck get a mac you losers. Hey linux is the lamest shit around. and you use Peecee with linuxsux over mac?
"Unionized GM assemblers make $21.02 per hour, Ford assemblers $21.03 and DaimlerChrysler assemblers $21.01."
This from: http://www.auto.com/industry/qgm17.htm
I don't see the point in giving away PCs to people with these salaries. Especially considering the percentage of these people in two income households. (Check the census)
Now if Ford really wanted to do some good for the world, they'd give computers to their foreign workers and leave the Americans to buy their own.
Who is going to be the lucky troll who gets the post with that magical number, post #2455542?
Pre-prize package for that number.. a night with Michael! You'll feel like the goatse man!
Somebody set up us the troll.
I have got to troll at LEAST six more times after this. After all when it comes to trolling it is quantity not quality that counts.
Exact mod points only.
out of 89 posts, only 23 are above 0!!
Holy goatse shit, batman!!
good show everyone!
btw, FUCK JOHN KATZ
La la la la la la la la la la la la la...catshit!! (Sing it to the old Batman theme song.)
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
whoever put a "troll" on this post...
if I meet you I *will* kick your ass.
Moderators loooove the taste of a crack hit in the morning.
Yeah. Weird. Hey have you played Operation:Flashpoint yet? Its pretty spiffy.
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
troll
troll
troll your boat
gently down the stream...
merrily merrily merrily merrily
slashdot's but a dream....
I think it's wrong to assume nobody is interested.
Sure.. they may not be intersted in computers the way some of us geeks are interested in them..
But nowadays.. the Internet has much to offer, whether or not you understand the underlying technology.
Key thing left out here, in much of the anti-union flavor of many posts is that the Ford workers were getting some hefty profit sharing bonuses in prior years, which they will probably not see again for a while, these were in the $2,500-5,000 range.
FWIW, if you actually have a fulltime job, go see your HR people and get a disclosure statement on the cost of actually having you there. It's often 1.5 times your salary, workplace expenses not withstanding.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Penis?
Penis!
Who's penis?
My penis!
How big is it?
Big enough to ream your ass in half!
What about Lexus? Their factories are all fully automated.
Why won't CmdrTaco suck onto my penis!? It's very, very suckable. At least my g0at says so. Don't you, go@tie?
Baaaaaaaaaaa!!!
"What about Lexus? Their factories are all fully automated."
Are they? I find it hard to believe, but I haven't been to one.
g0at? g0at? where ar3 y0u, g0at?
c0me 0ut, c0me 0ut, wher3ver y0u ar3...
i slash u up
my g0at slashes u up
7up
she bitten onto my penises n it hurt
so i clubbed unto her head becasue she was to be a bad g0at.
i was thought that g0ats do not be having the sharp teeths.
g0atmeat for sale!!!
g0atmeat for sale!!!
The last five trolls before this are mine. That's right, I posted them. Me. The g0atman. So go ahead and moderate me down, you suckers. I dare you. Moderate, mod, mod, mod, mod, moderate me!!
*burp*
Okay, I did some checking:
t ml
1 .h tml
v e2 000/Toyota040500.htm
:)
Georgetown (which is not a Lexus plant, but is a Toyota plant) employs 6,500
They are going to expand their engine plant by 200 (which is reasonable, our powertrain building is highly automated so it doesn't take near the same amount of workers as General Assembly would)
http://www.citynet.net/putnam/gazette/gz10127.h
300 jobs at their paint facility (water-based paint like ours)
http://www.datadetroit.com/news/Cambridge_05280
Ontario will employ 300
http://www.premier.gov.on.ca/english/news/archi
I'm sure that I could find more, but it's pretty obvious that they are not completely machine assembled.
I wouldn't mind touring one of their plants (we have exchange tours with Georgetown as it is)
Definitely a great car, it's our "target" as far as quality is concerned.
And allow me a plug...
As for us, we're #2 as of the previous J.D. Power survey (second to Lexus)
If you looked at the roots of home computer production the direction was one of greater and greater integration and lower and lower costs for the consumer. However, with the introduction of the PC the production costs have actually gone up compared to where they would have been with less complicated highly integrated units. In this day and age I believe that you should be able to buy a new computer for less than one hundred dollars that you simply plug into your TV/monitor, a sort of universal computing terminal.
Look, transistions suck. There is no question. Different industries get axed in different ways. We certainly need to be on the ball better to protect people during transitions. If someone loses a job because of incompetant, etc., then there is no problem with them being in trouble. However, those that lose their jobs because of structural changes in the economy probably should have a better safety net.
However, you understate the problem with busy work.
The United States has the world's largest economy. There are fewer than 300m of us, even with undocumented aliens, etc. We have a young (relative to our history considering life expectancy) retirement age, and a long childhood (mandatory schooling until 16, free schooling until 18, with over half the country going on to further education, 20 or 22), which leaves us with a small work force to push the economy.
During economic crisis, or feared crisis, we shrink the work force (great depression => social security, fear of post-war recession => GI Bill, other pushes for higher education).
During this last boom, wages were spiraling out of control for certain worker groups, which prevented companies from hiring, which likely cut off the boom earlier. Realize that we were PAST full employment... unemployment was lower than economists THOUGHT was possible with normal job switching.
If we can't rotate people into other sectors, our economy is going to peter out.
We need a system to HELP transition people. People replaced by technology need a system for:
A) training
B) maintaining their lifestyle during the transition
I normally don't like government programs, but I can see good reasons for federalizing this. If the company has to pay for the transitioning, the equation gets pushed AWAY from automation because of the added costs of paying former employees. If the employees pay for it, you screw people over. Spreading the costs across all Americans (taxes) prevents structual economic changes from falling upon the individuals hit or the regions that they are locating.
The other problem is what to do with older employees. Someone who is 45 or 50, that has held a job since they were 15-20, is in a difficult position to change functions. Perhaps we need a more useful early retirement system.
Ideally, we don't WANT companies or people to fear changes or avoid changes. We want to embrace changes.
It would be nice to live in a world where people (workers, entreprenuers always take risks) focus on doing their job and living their life. If there are changes, they figure out a way to adapt afterwards, instead of worrying or fearing change.
Just a thought, it might ADD efficiency to our economy...
Alex
I hear they don't have any unions in afghanistan. Go live there, you piece-of-shit scab.
(if you want it)
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entlygay ownday ethay eamstray...
errlilymay errilymay errilymay errilymay
ashdotslay's utbay a eamdray
fuck
fuck
fuck a duck
screw a kangaroo...
finger bang an orangutan
orgy at the zoo...
I am a Ford employee in the U.S., and I can confirm that all U.S. employees were able to get the computers through Model E that wanted them. There were problems in other countries, however, such as arcane tax laws that would have required employees to pay about as much in taxes as they would have to buy the computers outright.
Also, even though HP was supplying the computers, PeoplePC was managing the Model E program (distribution and internet access), and apparently couldn't deliver on their agreement overseas. It seems PeoplePC was overly optimistic in their promises.
Invalid form key: D7rQadpfEA !
OK Slashdot crew, once and for all, SOMEONE, ANYONE tell us what the friggin formkeys error is! There are posts I just can't reply to, logged in or anonymous, no matter what I do. What the fuck is a formkey error?!?!
Come on, all of us are waiting for a slashback explaining this.
Oh, and requireing a sourceforge login just to submit a bug is a really poor choice, but I guess otherwise you'd be flooded with error reports. I know when I saw a formkey error for like the hundredth time since the new slashcode went live, I swore I'd submit a bug report for every one of them, so maybe someone eventually would get the idea, but evidently I need an account that I have to log in to every time. Well done guys.
So did you first notice her in My So Called Life or one of her movies? I'm still waiting for BMG to release the rest of the fucking series on dvd. So far it has the first 3 episodes and some previews of the next 2 dvds. That as 18 months ago and still no word :(
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Perhaps it is the decrease in time spent in random internet surfing that is reducing the expected payoff from this proposition. Perhaps it is the continuing expense of keeping the computers up-to-date. Everytime Microsoft puts out a new version of Windows and IE, or Intel releases a new chip, the computers become one more generation out-of-date, and less of a benefit that the employees will appreciate. Perhaps it is the expected cmmercialization of the net, with big nedia companies and corporations controlling an increasing percentage of time online, that makes the process of grass-roots promotion online less viable.
It's small consolation, but I metamoderated that happysock loving moderator as 'unfair' out of principle. At least that whore (karma) will take one in the sac.
Basic is something used by kids before they learn
how to write programs.
C is still king when not overrun by C++. Most
small embedded processors use C. Only the people
who have no clue about programming use basic.
If you are too scared of C but someday you want to
learn how to program in a real programming
language and at the same time have the benefits
of the visual design use Kylix or Delphi or both.
Yes!!! Yours is about the only sensible post in this topic today.
I work for Ford Motor.
0 9.html
Please see here: http://www.thestreet.com/tech/siliconvalley/10249
This isnt the 'best' description of the situation, but BASICALLY the Ford PeoplePC deal has been a scam from day one.
Ford announced this program internally as an effort to jumpstart the rank-and-file computer knowledge in order to enable the company in the new 'ecommerce' universe (robost-corporate-speak-bullshit). They invested MANY MANY millions into PeoplePC PRIOR to their IPO. PeoplePC, as some of you may rememeber, was basing its business on "we give you PC now for a 36mos. ISP contract" ala Iopener and some others... when the big Dot Bust occured, all these companies started to fail. Ford, having its NUTS in the vice for about $25 Million dollars, Ford volunteered to ENROLL every Ford employee in the PeoplePC program... the cost to Ford directly? Im not sure, maybe something, maybe nothing - frankly I have no reason to believe that it cost Ford ANYTHING to do this, I believe it was an effort to further finance PeoplePC, give them customers (keeping them working/solvent) and give the impression that PeoplePC is a viable business.. remember Ford was in bed w/ PeoplePC pre-IPO... and they had a contract deal to be able to buy another $25M at IPO stock price.
So, basically, when PeoplePC the market ran away from all the DotComs and other fantasy-technology companies, PeoplePC became a worthless company.. they trade at like $0.18 per share.
Ford knows the company is doomed. They are not going to 'throw good money after bad'... they are going to let PeoplePC die.
THIS IS WHY THEY CANCELLED THE PROGRAM
Let me tell you very frankly - there are alot of people at Ford Motor Canada that are VERY VERY ANGRY about this. It could be a very heavy point in the next CAW contract (sept'02)... and the Salary Staff (which I am one of) are VERY aware of what is really taking place... the worst thing in the world is to be this close, this aware to something like this announcment and realize that the company you are working for is a decietfull(sp?) pack of liars.
Um, does anyone read news besides slashdot? The car companies are getting killed right now. They're offering 0% financing just to get people into the dealerships and GM and Ford both announced several-hundred-million dollar losses for the quarter.
This isn't about a program that doesn't make them money, it's about a new benefit that they just can't afford any more! They've cut out overtime, idled plants and are getting ready to lay off 5000 to 10,000 white collar employees. I'd say this was expendable.
"Can I say you're my lovepuppy?" Founding member of SODAMNHOTT
Maybe if they would spend less money in court costs against hackers they would have the money to give their employees the benifits that they had promised!!
... cooked and delivered to my door. I could save a lot of time that way.
and "you" are?
Those workers could also be running cells, which wouldn't necessarily mean that they need to touch the parts ever, just set the machines and make sure they stay running properly. I don't know. I read it in a book, the title of which I forget the name. I'll post it once I can find it.
A hundred years ago, Ford gives the incredible wage of $5/day (or was it $10) to reduce voluntary churning of employees, whose training was expensive.
Years later, socialists argue the government should mandate minimum wages and use Ford as an example.
Years later still, Ford starts giving out free computers and virtually free net access.
Prediction: soon, socialists will promote the government give away computers and net access for free, mandated to corporations.
Oh, wait. That happened in a Gore speech about 6 years ago. Nevermind.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.