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Mount Rainier for Linux
Cpyder writes: "Seems like Philips is getting the "patents are bad"-picture, as they have decided to let Linux support the Mount Rainier next-generation file device system. Seems like the end of floppies+zips+cdrw+whatever is finally in sight. Check it out at The Reg."
This probably has more to do with IBMs incredible support for Linux and the momemntum that Linux is gathering than any enlightenment on the part of Phillips. Phillips, for example, did a crackdown on all CD pressing plants to make sure that all artwork on CDS carried the "Compact Disc Audio" logo. After this, it was impossible to press CDs at DFI in France, for example, without the CD logo. Thats more like the behaviour of the Phillips that we know.
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
http://www.licensing.philips.com/information/mtr/d ocuments103.html
Wow, Linux is a supporter. Cool.
Due to the opening up these standards, it's very easy for competitors to create compatible devices without license fees. So the initial inventors don't get very much money from their inventions like they could make initially. This is very bad because it will force other companies do the very same. You might say: good for open source community. But in fact it's very bad: it restricts the profit inventors get from their invention. Look for example at IBM, they nearly died from getting not enough money from their invention of the IBM PC. So nobody will do any more inventions, because they look at IBM and say: "Look, they nearly died from getting not enough money from their invention. Let's rather sell old, cheap stuff and get rich !" So, no more inventions will be done and there will be no enconomical and scientific advancement. So, you see that treaties like this are in fact very bad and might destroy our economy.
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
"...for now the working groups punningly refer to "CD-MRW". "
I can't wait to tell people about this. "Theres this great new super easy cd format!" "oh yeah? whats it called?" "CD-MRW!" "CD-huh?"
heh
full length albums complete with print resolution artwork -- earth2willi.com
Why doesn't the Linux/OSS community come up with an embedded, tiny-ass Linux hard drive like the iPod, with some simple GUI-and-pen based features, a 6 or 20 gig drive, firewire and not much else. We could greatly increase the establishment of Linux by having it up for sale to desktop users, and M$ won't be able to make quips about usability anymore.
Of course, having Linux in just another file server is nice too, I guess.
"Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
Remember that it's not patents themselves that are bad. They allow you to ensure that you'll get a return on the huge amount of money you spend doing research on algorithms, processes, etc. Then, unlike copyright, they ensure that your invention is released into the public domain before several generations of people have come and gone.
Patents are only bad when abused. By abuse I mean obtaining overly broad patents purposely, forming companies whose sole purpose is to sue everyone that does anything remotely related to patents they purchased from others, or similar. It's perfectly fine to use a patent to charge people to use your legitimate invention, however.
Also remember that Free Software, no matter how obscure, can cut into your profits if people use it instead of your own software. Why should someone pay lots of money for your product that implements an amazing new encoding algorithm that you payed a million dollars to develop when they could use Free Software that does the same thing just because you were too nice to demand a licensing fee from "free" projects?
Don't worry, if the technology is that good, someone will find a way around it. Look at Ogg Vorbis, for example, which implements an intelligent audio codec without anyone else's IP.
Someone has seen sense and realised the only way to have a mass-market storage device is to make it easy to develop for. Ever wondered why the Floppy/CD/CD-R/CD-RW/DVD-R/DVD-RW are each successful?
;)
But I think its the only way that Phillips can hope to compete with DVD-R, DVD-RW or whatever
Very interesting, but it sounds like the cost would be prohibitive. CD burning isn't that hard, my 72 year old grandma can do it. I think most people will spring for DVD+R/W then this because a burner's a burner, Mount Ranier's probably only gonna be little be cheaper than a DVD+R/W.
The Mount Rainier standard sounds nifty, even if the technology is still a couple of years out of wide consumer usage. But my only beef is this: does current CD-R(W) burning software for any platform have to be more complicated than the average computer user can handle?
Enter Apple's little-known Disc Burner software, and the Authoring Support software located under the hood in the system folder. The basic premise? Put a blank CD in and Disc Burner asks for a format (either hybrid ISO/HFS, Audio, or just plain vanilla ISO), and voila, on your desktop, is an icon of your CD. Drag-n-Drop to your heart's content, and then select "Burn CD" from the Special menu (or drag the CD to the trash, then asking you to burn the CD. Even I never have understood the user interface issues with dragging a disk to the trash to eject it). Done. Simple. My cat can even burn CDs now.
The moral of the story? Mount Rainier will be an easily applied standard across all platforms. But who said the current technology's software had to be difficult? Granted, Disc Burner is not Mount Rainier, but it definitely is a current and usable facsimile of the technology.
For more info on what Mt. Rainier (CD-MRW) is all about, check out their mt-rainier web site
Hey, atleast we didn't have to fight for it this time.
No illegal code for people to wear on shirts...
No annoying hassels between Ac3 and dts...(why the hell doesn't sound work...why the hell can I get sound, but the video is only half decoded...)
Of course, this means that the chances of success are asimtonically close to n.
Where "n" is a low number.
-=fshalor
-=fshalor
I, for one, am really glad to see that Linux is supporting our national parks. Heaven knows that we geeks need to get outdoors once and a while.
(see subject)
From the article: Mount Rainier is needed because CD-RWs "are still too complicated to use for most users," says Philips' Eggert Gudmundsson.
This is frustrating because either:
a) End users are actually this technologically primitive or...
b) End users aren't but the Big Heads think they are and so we still get screwed!
I TA a CS course for freshman non-CS engineers at a Big Ten and, in my humble experience, the biggest problem is the perceived learning curve hurdle these kids have. Most just too easily throw their hands up in defeat and spout some slogan ("I'll never get these things" or "Only like ten people will need this stuff anyway"). But then you find that after they can break through the first through layers of syntax the class becomes pretty much hands off.
You know what? I think my Mom could use Debian.
Ok Ok. I know this post is OT as all get out but, c'mon, its 9:30 in the morning and I can't sleep!
What is music when you despise all sound?
I'll believe it when I see it.
Unless and until they openly support Linux on ALL of their computer based products, I will NOT be a believer. Case in point: the USB Webcams - they will only let a developer work on this through an NDA. Not very supportive as far as I can tell...
Ron Gage - Westland, MI
Well said!
For those interested in the mountain behind (or above, being the tallest mountain in the contiguous United States at 14,412 feet) go take a look at the Mount Rainier National Park Homepage. Its a beautiful place (I grew up there, my dad was a Park Ranger (look at his page for more pics of the mountain).
Remember Lexington Green!
TiVos are linux based, definitely consumer-oriented, and probably have one of the best user interfaces I've ever come across. They're also getting close to critical mass in terms of users, I figure.
woxy.com - Bam! The Future of Rock and Roll
Yet I can't help but be concerned. I'm one of the few remaining geeks who hasn't purchased a burner for his home computer, and now that this is coming along, I'm tempted to continue waiting for MR. But if there is no intercompatibility between traditional drives and thr MR medium, if any generic CD-ROM can't read an MR disc, then early adopters are going to be limited to archival work while the true beauty of the disk, transit, remains out of reach. I look forward to being able to quickly and conveniently create demo and project discs before I set off for classes.
So. Does anyone know if MR media is expected to be readable by standard CD-ROMs?
Pax Digitalia
you know, those CD's shaped like business cards. That would be cool if thus Rainier spec worked on those CD-RW's too. More convenient than floppies for sure.
After reading the article (Which seem to be more about IP issues than the actual format.) and the FAQ at the site I still fail to se whatäs so great.
Ok so you can have drag and drop support from the OS. Today you need an application for it, although in Win you can use DirectCD to make it more or less invisible to the user. Apparently that can be done in Mac OS as well.
It's true that a normal CD-RW disc doesn't work in all the old CD players, but if the alternative is to get a new burner it's pretty much moot if you ask me.
Why would I want to buy a new CDR unit just to avoid formatting the disk? What's the point of this?
Is Mount Rainier just a disc format (like ISO9660, UDF, etc)? There's mention of hardware recorders, but it sounds like they use ordinary CD-RW media. Will normal CD-RW drives be able to use this format? I think that consumers expected to have this drag-n-drop ability in the first place. Nobody's going to buy a new drive just to do that, are they?
Besides, how do writable DVDs fit into this picture?
Mod me down if you like but Windows XP has this basic capability built in and every one thinks its a bad thing....
Here is what happens when i insert a blank CDR in the disc drive.
Windows can perform the same action each time you insert a disk or connect a device with this kind of file:
blank CD
What do you want windows to do
1 Open writable CD folder using Windows explorer
2 take no action
Select if you want a default action to occur
Personally I dont use the built in software because I have other hapits but just to see if it could work I created a shortcut to the CDDRIVE and placed the shortcut on the desktop then dragged and dropped music files to the shortcut and lo and behold they were waiting to be burned. To do the actual burning I opened the shortcut and selected write these files to CD.
bobs your uncle
Now on to CDRW if the media costs come down and preformatted disks are cheap and they dont damage easily then I would probably use more of them. My own experience is they dont hold up as well to general everyday use...
ymmv
I can already "drag and drop" files to a CDRW that will be read in Windows, MacOS, and Linux, with DirectCD, or packet-cd on Linux. Microsoft even wants to include CD writing tools in Windows, so I guess soon you will not even need DirectCD. The same goes to Apple. So why is this "revolutionary" new format necessary?
This type of CD-R/RW usage has been available (in Windows) for years via third-party software like Adaptec/Roxio's DirectCD or the NTI's FileCD and so on. CD players already support packet writing! Why is Microsoft, IBM et. al. taking about reengineering the CD from at such a low level? Doesn't it just require someone to write a Linux version of DirectCD/FileCD? Why can't we just format CD-R/RW discs with the UDF file system that DVD's already use instead of inventing a brand new one?
Also, I'm not sure I even like the idea of this becoming the "default" behavior for CD writers. I strongly dislike the overhead involved in formatting. I find that a packet writing CD-R/RW hold about 100MB less. I'd rather have the full capacity. I mean, if you are using this thing for business backup (which seems to be the primary argument for needing Linux support) then you are only going to be burning once a day, so why not just burn a full 650/700MB worth of data as a single data track?
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
I can't agree with this more. While I agree with your general sentiment WRT the U.S. patent office policy, I find the statement "US government is more interested in floating the stock market than in supporting economic fair play" to be particularly insightful.
:) )
.sig.
With average Dow P/E ratios hovering at 23 and, a flood of cheap money coming out of the Fed (just *look* at M3 since 9/11!), and the Treasury's recent decision to end the 30 year long bond in an effort to push down long term interest and mortgage rates, it's pretty clear that the policy is to squeeze out real estate equity inflationary (and illusory) gains through refinancing in order to float consumer spending and stock market speculation. The frightening thing about this is that it doesn't in the least promote healthy economic activity through increased productivity, it's entirely speculative -- as evidenced by the stock market continuing to rise even with ridiculous P/E ratios making stocks such an obvious bad long term bet. Which makes your analogy of the patent office creating a new "gold rush" all the more relevant: patenting obvious mathematical algorithms doesn't increase productivity as much as it creates exclusive monopolies for the big players. Sure, they get to claim the gains on their balance sheet, but it's a net loss for the economy as a whole.
I'm worried that the Fed won't be able to maintain and prop up the credit bubble as rising unemployment creates a certain rise in consumer bankruptcies. With increasing unemployment, huge consumer credit and mortgage debt (backed by unreasonably inflated property values) defaults, I fear an unraveling from the banking system through the stock market. Never mind all the crazy derivative hedging going on making many major banks and financial institutions leveraged beyond belief. I fear a recession like we haven't seen since 1929. It could get bad.
Of course, I could be wrong... (hope so -- I just bought a house!
Cheers,
--Maynard
ps - like your
Which is why in Mac OS 10.1, the trash can changes into an 'eject' symbol or a 'burn' symbol when you start dragging a drive icon. Perfectly clear and logical.
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
Have anyone seen the changelog?
The only thing I can find at ftp.kernel.org
is the changelog for 2.2.19...
roy
--
Computers are like air conditioners.
- They stop working when you open Windows.
Been reading the Pravda dictionary to the english language again, have you? Hate to break it to you, but comrade dictionary seems to be wrong here (or at least highly biased). My dictionary makes no mention of having to derive power fro[m] capital to be a capitalist.
Capitalist n 1: an owner of wealth used in business 2: an upholder of capitalism 3: a wealthy person
(from Webster's New World Dictionary, 1996)
0 1 - just my two bits
This sounds a lot like the basic concepts behind Flash Translation Layer - you take a pile of sectors that are slow to erase, and insert a layer that allows you to map logical sectors to physical sectors any way you want. Thus, when you need to "erase" or "re-write" a logical sector, you just change the mapping to a physical sector that hasn't been written to. You then do a background process of taking physical sectors that are "dirty" (written to) but unused and erase them.
Funny how this idea comes around - FTL, LVM, and now Mt. Rainier. Similar concepts, different applications.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I guess this is good news for the average joe who has problems figuring out when to single click or double click while using Windoze(then again my computer illiterate sister had no problems using Fireburner to burn audio cd's for herself).
Am I the only person here who wants to move past the normal CD format? I'd rather see something like MiniDisc's replace floppies and normal CD's(or DVD?). CD's are pretty delicate, they get scratched up easily and the cases are pretty huge compared to MiniDisc's or Zip discs. I want smaller and more sturdy data storage alternatives and yet still let me store +640 megs.
I just set up my Linux boxes to do UDF packet writing on my CD-RW drives. It seems to work great, and is a truly handy storage format.
Could somebody clarify for me why I would replace my apparently perfectly good CD-RW drives with CD-MRW capable ones? I guess there must be some technical advantage to the MRW format. Speed? Reliability? Certainly can't be portability: one of the reasons I chose CD-RW packet is that I can read it on most boxes these days.
I'm obviously missing something here...
Perfectly clear and logical.
... Fitt's Law) but the dual-nature of the trashcan isn't obvious upfront.
No, it's neither clear nor logical.
You have to know beforehand that dragging the icon to the trashcan is going to eject it.
The icon change when you get there just helps confirm what you already know. The change is useful for letting you know when the icon has reached its destination (see also
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http://slashdot.org/moderation.shtml
Too bad that feature consumes 1.4 GB of disk space and takes 20 minutes to burn a CD (with a 16X drive). Maybe my PowerBook's hard drive is just slow, though.
It sounds nice, but if the media doesn't fit in my shirt pocket, then it's no Zip replacement.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I don't think Mount Rainer can be patented. This format is declared "next-generation" because it allows you to treat CD-Rs and CD-RWs as regular media with drag-and-drop capabilities for burning data. But I'm pretty sure the latest version of Mac OS X already does that. I run Mac OS X but don't have a burner, so I haven't been able to try it myself, but after reading a recent review on C|NET, it appears you can drag-and-drop onto DVDs, CD-Rs, and CD-RWs to burn data. Prior art, right there.
And since the main purpose of this format appears to be the functional benefits of treating CD-Rs and CD-RWs as regular removable media (floppies, JAZ disks, etc.), the only thing left to patent would be the physical disk. But, that's not possible because there's nothing special or different about "MRW" disks: they are just regular CD-RWs. The real support for MRW comes from the OS and software, not from hardware.
So don't get your hopes up that Philips decided to forego the royalties in favor of widespread adoption. It's entirely possible that someone who works for Philips actually has a Mac OS X system and discovered that the project they've been working on for two years was just shown up by Apple.
In my opinion, however, Philips is more interested in making money by selling lots of disks marked "MRW" at a premium instead of selling CD-RWs. Having support for MRW everywhere then makes more sense than charging developers for support for the format. I doubt Philips ever intended to close off access to the specification despite what Andre Hendrick says. Perhaps they were just keeping it closed until it was finalized.
"Look for example at IBM, they nearly died from getting not enough money from their invention of the IBM PC."
You're joking, right? Try boning up on your history, pal. IBM made (I don't know if they're still involved in all of these areas anymore) a number of business products, including typewriters (the Selectric being a computer-like typewriter that lots of people hacked), mainframes, punch card equipment, and even fire alarm systems. Their bread and butter were the mainframe computers, where the price was high, the margins were high, and the service costs (paid to IBM, of course) were high.
Some guy over at IBM saw the Apple II, saw the killer app for it (some spreadsheet app, maybe Visicalc? I don't recall right now), thought that maybe there was something there and had a few guys put together a prototype with off-the-shelf components, and marketed it to smaller businesses who couldn't afford any of the mainframes that IBM's bread-and-butter section created. IBM didn't bet the farm on the PC, you dolt. Apple bet the farm on the Mac, though. Maybe you've gotten your companies mixed up. I don't see how you COULD get the two confused, but I guess in some lesser minds it would be possible.
Yeah, it's a flame. Go ahead, flame back.
Drag-n-Drop to your heart's
content, and then select "Burn CD" from the Special menu (or drag the CD to the trash, then asking you to burn the
CD. Even I never have understood the user interface issues with dragging a disk to the trash to eject it).
Dragging a disk icon to the trash for ejecting has historical reasons, from the time when a Mac had no hard drive or only very limited free spacce on a hard drive:
normaly you ejected a disk by hitting fan/command E (the sign looking like a fan left from space, the key may also have an apple as sign).
If you eject a disk like that, the disk comes out of the drive but the icon stays on the desktop, in dark grey.
If you now insert a nother disk you get a second disk icon, usable like usualy.
That means you can copy data with drag and drop from one disk to the other and the system asks you to insert the required disks at the appropriated times.
Basicly a Mac is able to mount a unlimited number of disks despite it only has ONE disk drive.
To get rid of a disk icon of a disk you allready have ejected(in unix speak: to unmount a disk), you drag the grey icon to the trash.
So dragging a mounted disk to the trash means: eject and unmount. Its only a shortcut for eject (apple menu bar, special menue eject or fan/E) and unmount later by droping the unused icon to trash.
Regards,
angel'o'sphere
(In our days you realy never ever need to mount two disks so most people do not know that it is possible I guess)
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
mount: What, twice?
Whenever you hear stories about patents being evil, it is always framed in the realm of software and inevitable references to IBM and MS are thrown around. People claim most advances come out of the universities and other public institutions. While this is partially true for software, look at some of the other realms like electrical engineering. Without the abililty to patent their inventions, it is not like Motorola, Intel, Transmeta and the likes would dump billions into developing new CPUs if their competition could just copy it and offer it for a lower price because they would not have to cover R&D cost. Without patents, it would be hard to convice the CEO and board of directors to invest large amounts of money when the results would benefit their competition equally. "We will make a revolutionary new CPU, spending billions on the process. Then our competition will copy it for free and sell it for a quarter of the price because they do not have to pay for R&D." Yeah right, I would like to see that pitch. Companies exists to make money, not to try to make the world a better place. If they can get money by creating products that benefit someone, they will do it. Patents give a chance to create new products and make money. I agree that there are serious problems with our patent system, and that it is extroadinarily abused at times, but it is beneficial. We all know how business works, they dont care if they make better products or not as long as they make money. Patents give them an incintive to make better products to beat their competitors. Sure, we need to change our patent system, but we do not need to destroy it. Linus works for a company that holds many patents, he does not seem to have a problem with it.
Patents don't encourage innovation - they stifle it.
proof of Osama's guilt..
What I want to know is how is CD-MRW any different than current Packet Writing tools?
For example, Nero comes with a Packet-Writer program, and the Sony Spressa drives all come with AbCD. These utilities allow the CD to be mounted as a large removable media, and used in a simple drag and drop fashion. As far as I know, AbCD and the Nero one (I can't remember it's name -- help -- someone?) aren't compatible so there is of course this whole compatibility issue that CD-MRW does fix up for us, but my question is this:
If packeting writing DOES the same thing for us already -- then what is preventing CURRENT drives from supporting Mount Rainier?
Logically, if the drives can DO Packet Writing in other formats, then it's only a driver issue that prevents them from doing it Mount Rainier format, right? If not, why not?
By the looks of it -- everyone is going to need whole new drives and media, something I'm not too terribly keen on considering that I've been using a Sony Spressa for a while now and I ALREADY HAVE packeting writing.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Apt, no?