Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft to Take on Java Again With J#
CptnKirk writes: "Many people liked Visual J++ as an IDE. The settlement with Sun, following it's Java suit, pretty much stopped this development. Apparently Microsoft is back at it again, with another attempt to bring Java development back to the Windows platform. J# (Jay Sharp), will be part of Visual Studio .Net, and provides "an implementation of the Sun Java spec". It however has IMHO some very severe limitations. It's not actually Java(TM) compliant, doesn't product bytecode, or read Java raw bytecode, or run in a VM. It also doesn't support Java runtime features past 1.1.4.
The InfoWorld article is here. As a Java developer, to me creating a product that is supposed to be some sort of Java tool that doesn't support any of Java's useful features or even latest language spec, doesn't cut mustard. I liked VJ++, it was a solid IDE and if it supported JDK 1.4 I'd be all for it. I wish Microsoft would just produce a good IDE, and not screw with the language."
Microsoft's download is http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jsharp/beta.asp.
---
http://slashdot.org/moderation.shtml
Why do this? Why bother coming out with a castrated, nearly unusable product that only supports an obsoleted version of the product that they're trying to kill? Especially when it's going to be competing for developer mindshare with the language that they really want to push to kill Java (C#, if you've been under a rock for the past year or so)?
I mean, maybe MS is hoping that people will try to use it so that they get pissed off at Java and go with C#? Do they really think that developers, even Windows ones (-: j/k, I'm a Delphi guy myself), are too stupid to look up non-MS Java information? What do they think will happen when those developers realize that they're getting the shaft to try to push them away from Java?
Anywho... Makes me wonder...
Pax, Ardax
the name J#. Whatever happened to J++?
What if sales of J# are flat?
Do they have some product naming obfuscator that they pump through a focus groupie algorithm to arrive at these things?
to allow any developper to work on their .Net framework. The .Net and C# are really close to each other.
.NET framework. You can use Cobol if you want to, does Cobol is object orienter? No? But the .Net will support they cobol syntax and create object under the hood somehow.
But what they did, IMHO, is they allow people to use another SYNTAX to code in the
So they are not supporting Java, but they are supporting the Java like syntax.
Pat
So much speculation and nothing has been proven yet. The best way to cut through this hype is to wait and let the .NET platform (along with all the #'s) prove itself...if it can. When I see a full scale application running on Unix, I'll take it seriously. I'm still waiting to see an enterprise scaled (stable!) application using COM, MTS, or COM+.
For the time being, I can't see J# making much of an impact. If someone is going to write an application using Java syntax, why would they not gear it for the proven JVM rather than something that has done nothing and could fall to the same fate as J++?
I agree MS can make quality IDEs. I personally find Vi to be the most efficient place to write code, but can see how a good IDE would go far.
Sincerely, Mike Bouma
For all the conspiracy theorists, there is a very good reason for J#... porting existing J++ code over to .Net. Also, as a side benefit(!?) you can port most Java code over to .Net. Some bright person in our organization decided that we were going to move to .Net going forward, and our port has saved us weeks of development time.
Personally, I would NEVER use it as a primary development language. There are quit a few issues with it, but its a life saver for people porting.
Whenever somebody referes to J# as Java, simple repond tha J# is broken, it is not Java! Management are capable of understanding this simple truth, without explaination.
Remember: In English, the # symbol is a hash, to hash something means to bodge or fcuk it up.
isn't C# supposed to be what J# is going to be used for? what the hell is going on?
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
Let's be frank. C# was designed to replace Java. It's got a C-like object-oriented syntax that allows package importation and that, through .NET, is compiled and delivered in binary form throughout the internet, right?
.NET?
What I want to know is what the heck the point is of continuing J++ as J#, which I assume also has a C-like object-oriented syntax that allows package importation and that, through regular Java compilation, is delivered in binary form throughout the internet?
Is the J++ user-base so large that it's profitable to help them migrate to
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Yeh. It's called C++.
Yeah, I'm confused. I thought C# was basically MS's replacement for Java. Why would developers work with J# since its just another Java look alike that is not Java?
Someone you trust is one of us.
From what I have heard, "real" Java coders are not even looking at C##, hence the M$ resurrection of J++ via J##. The trades I've read is that it's mostly VB coders (and to a much smaller degree VC++ programmers) taking a peek at C##.
I still do some coding with VB. I'll admit, although my JSPs, servlets and Java apps run on Linux, the M$ J++ runs pretty nicely on a 32MB or 64MB Win95 machine. The pop up syntax helper is a huge plus. Set your classpaths right, even 1.3 comes up. I've tried Forte and JBuilder on one of my 640MB dual processor P533 Linux systems via X/Win, but those IDE's are just too sluggish. I find myself writing the code in VJ++ but doing the compiling and testing via SSH or an X session on one of my Linux servers.
J## may be M$ attempt at keeping all of their bases covered just in case C## flops, and nobody wants to write vb.net code.
Is porting real Java to windows binary, for distribution to people who are too lazy or scared to download and install a JVM on their new Java-Free XP boxen.
SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
Given MS's loss to Sun with Visual J++ and the knowledge that MS wants to push C#, how many Java developers will actually bother with this one?
Obviously, MS's marketing people have a good track record, but maybe a Java to C# conversion tool would have been a better choice...
:q!
Besides allowing the J++ developers to port their code to .Net, this leaves the doors wide open and make it easy (easier anyway, they are massive) for a third party to implement the Java APIs (e.g. the J2EE family on top of .Net. To my way of thinking, that could have a lot of value.
.Net by making sure the language syntax isn't a barrier. Sure C# isn't all that far from Java, but now the language is no excuse at all. (The API learning curve may be a barrier but Microsoft has made that easy to get into through Intellisense, wizards, etc.)
To use a hockey analogy:
So Microsoft isn't allowed to score with the Java puck on the Sun goal anymore. But are they prohibited from making an assist? Nope.
Also, there is the idea that they may simply be trying to lure Java developers as a whole into
You know it's funny.. I just went to the MS DevDays conference this last week and no mention was made of J#. Hmm....
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
My only confusion with J# is that it looks the same as C#. C# is Java with a few keywords modified. What is different between the two? From looking at a page of code, I couldn't tell you which is which! They've even made VB look the same. Why would anyone prefer one over the other?
Microsoft compiles output from C# and J# to an intermediate code that is given, in turn to a JIT compiler. There is no virtual machine, but what the code is allowed to do is well defined (you can only make certain defined calls to a special environment. You can not self modify the code or execute data so calls outside the box are prevented.
There is no particular advantage to this approach as opposed to the JVM/JIT compiler combinations used for Java except that the execution environment is a lot friendlier to Windows type programs.
J# is just a way to lever Java code onto .NET, the same with COBOL# and FORTRAN#. As the C# language spec, the intermediate code and the execution envionmrnt spec is being passed to ECMA, I begin to feel more comfortable about this side of .NET (see also the Mono project). Hailstorm sucks big, but that is just BillG's normal attempt at world domination. The architecture doesn't need Hailstorm and some OS developers like what they see.
Of course, the reason behind .NET was to fight SUN, however, SUN openned themselves up to this by not properly opening up Java quickly enough. Frankly, SUN doesn't have the muscle to run the Java project by itself (having lived with the bleeding edge of Java betas, I see that). MS is no better but by giving it to ECMA, the standards are under public control/scrutiny so it is difficult for them to embrace/extend.
See my journal, I write things there
What about Python#
LISP#?
That would be interesting. Some say that # does not do scripting very well. Any opinions on that?
Table-ized A.I.
an asspiring scripot kiddy
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
'nuff said! ;)