Slashdot Mirror


Cringely On Gates' Free Software Connection

cworley writes: "Slashdot recently reported on Gates' paternity claims over Open Source at a recent shareholders meeting. Although Gates' actual statement didn't make a great deal of sense, it looked as an attempt to revise history to portray himself as the creator of Open Source by initiating the PC's open architecture (or reverse engineering the BIOS to wrestle exclusive control of PC system sales from IBM). In Cringely's weekly article, he attempts to find the truth in Gates' statement. IBM's Jack Sams provides an historical perspective of Gates' role in the genesis of the PC's open architecture. "

19 of 303 comments (clear)

  1. Gates' Comment by Lemmus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I read the original statement, and, frankly, it didn't sound to me like Gates was claiming credit for Open Source. What he said was that if it hadn't been for M$ standardizing computing with DOS, there wouldn't be a market for Open Source now. However much I may disagree with M$ policies and coding today, I would tend to agree with the thought behind that statement.

    Anyone who remembers computing in the early '80's should recognize that the industry wasn't going anywhere. $5000 for an Apple 2? The only software is rudimentary databases and word processors. Games are less sophisticated than those on the Atari 2600. Monitors are monochrome. Apple is enforcing a closed source policy which improves the quality of the machines, but hampers development.

    It was the pairing of M$'s DOS with IBM PCs, and an open policy towards clones, that allowed the explosion of PCs seen in the mid-80's. Without that expansion, we'd probably still be looking at a computer in every 100th home, and no gaming or online community to speak of besides Nethack, university email accounts, and usenet.

    While Gates is hardly responsible for coming up with the idea of Open Source, he was certainly a key person in the expansion of the computer industry. It was that expansion which resulted in so many educated, trained, computer users that people started being able to program their own systems. If we still had to use machine language and punch cards, there wouldn't be open source.

    Gates' comments were perhaps worded less specifically than they should have been, but the Open Source community is likely also guilty of jumping on the comment more than necessary.

    At the very least, it's worth considering.

    --
    "Omnia quia sunt, umbra sunt."
    1. Re:Gates' Comment by OmegaDan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Im going to reply to your message with the idea that bill gates isn't a great man, but was merely the right person at the right time :) I don't see anything extrodinary in *anything* hes done.

    2. Re:Gates' Comment by Philbert+Desenex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I read the original statement, and, frankly, it didn't sound to me like Gates was claiming credit for Open Source. What he said was that if it hadn't been for M$ standardizing computing with DOS, there wouldn't be a market for Open Source now. However much I may disagree with M$ policies and coding today, I would tend to agree with the thought behind that statement.

      If you agree with that statement, you're simply wrong. In markets with a single CPU architecture and operating system (VAX -> VMS, SPARC -> Solaris, x86 -> MS-DOS) people just trade executables, they don't for the most part bother with source. You only need source in markets with a variety of CPU architectures and/or operating systems. The ideas behind Open Source were conceived in an environment of many, often propietary operating systems and CPU architectures, pre-1989, pre MS-DOS dominance. The economies of scale that caused cheap Pee Cee hardware have little or nothing to do with Open Source.

    3. Re:Gates' Comment by Watts+Martin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, I do remember computing in the early '80s. I remember a lot of vibrant hardware and software platforms that were manifestly different from one another, and that indeed most users of those machines were "educated, trained computer users" who were "able to program their own systems." In fact, this strikes me as the biggest flaw in your argument: the standardization on the IBM PC didn't make the microcomputer world open to the programmer, it made it open to the non-programmer.

      If we still had to use machine language and punch cards, there wouldn't be open source.

      No offense, but I can't think of a single microcomputer in the early '80s that could use a punch card even if you wanted one, and most micros only came with interpreted BASIC--if you wanted another programming language, including Assembly, you bought something. I had a BASIC compiler and Forth for my TRS-80, and could have also had Fortran, COBOL, C (K&R, of course) and, of all things, APL. And under CP/M, I could have had another program you might have heard of: Turbo Pascal. High-level languages supplanted assembly as the commercial programming environment of choice not because of the wonders of the standardized IBM PC, but because higher amounts of RAM in computers coupled with faster processors made it viable to program in them. When you only had 64K of RAM to load your OS, application and data, you needed to be real damn efficient.

      I think it's somewhat dubious to say that the standardization on one hardware platform was a panacea for problems in the computing world before that standardization happened. If, say, three or four competing hardware platforms had split the market, I see no reason why computer users would necessarily be worse off. When one hardware/software combination has over 90% of the market, it's easy to blow off the other 10%. If that hardware/software combination only has 50% of the market, you don't blow the other half off so easily. The move toward platform independence for both (source) code and data interchange formats might well have been accelerated in a "no one standard" environment--and that's fertile ground for open source development, isn't it?

  2. /. and Cringley by Arctic+Fox · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Not to troll, but does /. have a Cringley story every he writes an article?
    I liked the article, but man... he's always on /..
    Kind of like having him on the payroll (Katz), but not paying him.....
    let's get rid of Katz!!!

  3. Ever seen "Pirates of Silicon Valley"? by aratuk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is true that Microsoft's contract with IBM, which stipulated that Microsoft could sell its operating system software to whomever it wanted, allowed Microsoft's creation of a universal operating system which would run on any computer similar to those made by IBM. The popularity of this idea caused other companies to build IBM compatible parts, which started the open system architecture revolution of the mid-to-late 1980's.
    However, Microsoft did not intend to create a level playing field for hardware manufacturers. It did not produce an operating system which would run on a machine which could conceivably be made by any company for the purpose of promoting creativity and competition between hardware manufacturers. Microsoft did what it did so that it could sell as many copies of its operating system as possible. It is hard to believe that a person as anticompetitive as bill gates would claim to have idealistically started the open hardware architecture revolution with the intent of benefiting science or computing or whatever by opening the doors to new influences. This is beyond hypocrisy.
    Microsoft may have played a large role in setting architecture standards with its operating system, but it did so to make a profit, and any benefits to technology ensuing from the hordes of companies who began to make IBM compatible hardware and compete with each other were a side effect to Microsoft's bottom line.
    Open Source software, on the other hand, has the benefit of everyone in mind and is notoriously bad at producing a profit.
    I'll believe Bill when he begins to merrily distribute Microsoft system code, philanthropist that he is.

    1. Re:Ever seen "Pirates of Silicon Valley"? by AbsoluteRelativity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I dont know what he meant by hypocrisy, but I know that Microsoft has not only stimulated (as the previous poster notes) but also taken advantage of a competitive PC market. While its own market practice is exactly the same as IBMs was for a proprietary system, before their BIOS was reversed engineered and a competitive PC industry flourished. Imagine if microsoft's windows was reversed engineered and information contained in it was passed through a lawyer and then passed to a programmer working on an alternate windows operating system. I dont think microsoft would sit back and let that happen, even the Open Source projects that attempt to create an open alternative windows operating system say they are not going to reverse engineer nor use information from someone who has reversed engineered windows.

      --
      disclaimer : My views do not represent those of every one else in slashdot.
  4. Of course Bill is right... by dido · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...just not in the way he thinks he is. The entire Free Software/Open Source movement mainly began as a reaction to propertarian modes of software production, of which Microsoft eventually became the greatest, most extreme, and most infamous example. Even Richard Stallman says the GNU Project began as such a reaction in his history of the GNU Project.

    All this shuck about open and extensible architectures was none of Microsoft's doing, and the Free Software movement would likely have existed even without it, though it probably would not have grown as rapidly.

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
  5. Re:Well, Gates is sorta right by itarget · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Linux, at least, was created as a free alternative to UNIX. It had nothing to do with Microsoft products.

    The GNU tools were also free alternatives to UNIX tools that wound up integrated into Linux (and others). Again, nothing to do with Microsoft.

    At the same time though, OSS thrives on competition. MS can bring it on.

    --

    "Where shall the word be found, where will the word resound? Not here, there is not enough silence." -T.S. Eliot
  6. anachronism by bcrowell · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It's just silly to try to discuss whether Bill Gates was doing open source in 1980. It's like claiming Jesus was a feminist, or Jefferson was a marxist.


    In that era, there was no internet, so there was no easy way to exchange free software even if you wrote some. There were BBS systems, but they were mostly local, not national or international. If you wanted to network two microcomputers together, you went to Radio Shack, bought a cable and a couple of DB connectors, and got a friend to show you which lines to cross and which pins to solder together with a paperclip.

    There was a tiny population of hobbyists who would write code and give copies to each other at users' group meetings, but it wasn't big or visible -- as a teenaged computer hobbyist in 1980, I wasn't even aware it existed. Actually, that scene was probably smaller in percentage terms than it had been in the days of the Altair, etc., because there was starting to be commercial software that you could buy, rather than having to depend on other hobbyists. It was considered a good thing that you could buy a game at Radio Shack on a floppy, instead of having to write one yourself or type it in out of a listing in a magazine.


    Copyleft hadn't been invented, and "open source" would have been a derogatory term. Lots of software was sold as BASIC source code, but not the high-quality business and OS stuff, just games. Yes, it was cool being able to buy a commercially produced game and examine and modify the source code, but those machines were so slow that anything in an interpreted language would run really slow. The really good software was all written in assembly language, which meant it was fast. (There were good compilers for CP/M, but the development tools were a lot more limited on the more popular consumer computers like TRS-80's, Apple II's, and Commodores.)


    What was different and good about Mac and PC-DOS was that the hardware manufacturers didn't try to maintain a monopoly on the application software market, as Radio Shack, for instance, had tried to do.

  7. Gates Is Right Again by istartedi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He made the SW dominate the HW. You have to make HW that can run his SW or you are DOA. The rise of OSS was an unintended consequence, but there is a causal relationship.

    Now that BG has this "little problem" with OSS, he has a solution: XBOX. If XBOX turns into a PC, it fragments the HW market which will allow BG to sell different versions of Windows for different architectures, providing a logical set of divisions for MSFT so that the next time the DOJ tries to break them up it can be done in a manner similar to the ATT breakup--very beneficial to shareholders who end up with shares in all the major industry players who must sell more product because competition leads to overlapping purchases. If XBOX does not become a PC, BG just sits on his existing market and/or reaps game and DVD profits. Either way, he wins. This guy is so smart he has you knocked out before you even know you are in the ring and that there is a boxing match. He's 50 moves ahead of your game. You are checkmated before the board is even set up. He makes the rules! The OSS people are foolish to think they have any chance of competing.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  8. Obvious Fallacy by oGMo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a fairly blatant case of a false dichotomy. This basically implies that Gates and Microsoft created the current platform industry standard, but without Gates we would still be using punchcards and mainframes. This is, of course, ridiculous.

    Microsoft has a long history of crushing competition, of course, even before it was Microsoft. We all know how DR-DOS, the main competitor back-in-the-day, ended up. Without Gates, DR-DOS would likely have been the operating system of the x86. Microsoft did not invent MS-DOS, either, as we all know (being bought from the QDOS people). Microsoft did not invent the home computer either, that was Atari, or Commodore, or even Apple.

    In short, Microsoft has never made an original move in its existance that would indicate that, without its presence, the technology and market conditions would be the same or better than they currently are.

    There is always someone else.

    --

    Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

  9. Re:Paternity? by DaoudaW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Interesting that you used the term midwife because I've suggested the same analogy with regard to Al Gore and the Internet. No, Al Gore isn't the father of the Internet, but given that for several decades it was developed nearly 100% on government money and that Al Gore was the politician that best understood and supported it through those early years, I for one believe that Al Gore does deserve the title midwife of the Internet

  10. Ignorant newbies and BS artists. by clovis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Digital Equipment started the open architecture thing with the PDP series in the '60's when most of these characters were still bed-wetters. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8/
    I worked for Burroughs in the '70's. If you had one you got the source code for the OS (Burroughs MCP) and source for just about everything that went with it. It wasn't free, and you couldn't republish it, but you could (and many did) modify and recompile it to suit yourself. But, I digress. Digital really gets the credit.

    These guys all know this history and are not being honest when they pretend to have a part in creating the open source movement. In fact, they've done more than anyone except Apple to set it back - The only open part was publishing a subset of the API. Hell, Microsoft did not even document all the switches to DOS commands (fdisk /mbr), much less release a complete list of the system calls.
    ...grumble

  11. Re:IBM's BIOS was OPEN SOURCE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Right, it was just there- like it was 'just there' on the motherboard, sitting on a ROM chip, just waiting for anyone to pull out and throw in a ROM reader-but it was LICENSED+COPYRIGHTED, intellectual property. Try putting that code in your box and selling it. Sell any volume of boxes and prepare for the onslaught of Lawyer-Drones. Read thru that Assembler, then write your own? Lawyers. By reading that source you no longer were 'clean' in the eyes of the law. You used IBM IP, and any BIOS you used would be 'tainted'. You want to make an IBM compatible add-on HW or SW? here's the specs. You want to make IBM-compatible PC? Pay $$$$$$$ for the license.

    The whole concept of a clean room implementation is that developer X would pick through the ASM + machine language, poke and prod an IBM until they could produce a resonable and complete set of documentation on how the BIOS worked (like documenting an API), which was then passed to coders who had never touched an IBM machine, who were free to create a ip-clean system.

    Remember: Source available != Open source.

  12. Re:IBM's BIOS was "open" because.... by rmadmin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The reason Open Source thrives is to spite you.

    I beg to differ. =) Linus has said on multiple occasions that he doesn't care about Microsoft, nor Bill Gates. He doesn't even brag at the fact that an OS originally inteded to be run on only his machine has put a dent in Microsoft's monopoly attempt. Just because you hate Mr Gates, and his evil empire, doesn't mean you can attack him with Open Source! The entire Open Source community doesn't hate Bill Gates, some don't even care what he's doing (see: Linus Travolds). Don't use OSS's name to flame Gates and Microsoft, because your voice does not represent the entire Open Source community.

  13. Re:Bill, you big fibber, you! by gorilla · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And in those early days, who's software wouldn't run on non-IBM MS-DOS systems? That's right, Microsoft's. Until clones stablized, the standard program to test how IBM compatable a clone was, was Microsoft Flight Simulator.

  14. Re:Well, Gates is sorta right by haruharaharu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How is wanting a Unix for the i386 a reaction to Microsoft? More likely, he was at Uni, saw unix and liked it, and wanted it on something he could afford.

    --
    Reboot macht Frei.
  15. Why Bill Gates has this exactly backwards by JoeBuck · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This point has evidently been missed because most of you are too young to remember. The large population of identical boxes isn't what makes open source possible; it's what makes closed source (proprietary binary-only software) possible. The root of open source and free software as it exists today is Unix (even though it was not open source), and in particular the notion of a portable operating system, together with the C language.

    Back in the 80s, there was a huge diversity of machines running some flavor of Unix, with about a dozen different instruction sets and 50-odd distinct Unix-based or Unix-like operating systems in use. For most of these, there were simply too few machines to justify the sale of more than a few applications optimized to that particular machine. The result was that folks needed to learn how to program portably and needed to distribute source code. In many cases the license terms did not correspond to what we now call open source (one common licensing scheme was the single sentence "do whatever you want with this as long as you don't take my name off or try to make money with it"). And there were a number of "gated community" projects (you paid a company to get a source license, and you could compile it yourself).

    Possibly the most significant program Larry Wall wrote in the old days was Configure -- he pretty much invented the concept of querying the system to obtain a portable set of #defines that would then allow the program to be built on many platforms. The original one asked the user too many questions that it could have figured out for itself, but is was chatty and witty and would insult your OS if Larry didn't like it. But in any case the point was that if a program didn't come with source, the users would not be able to use it in all probability, there were too many different machines. Proprietary apps that cost tens of thousands could be sold to those with mainframes or maybe Vaxes, but there was no possibility of a mass market. It was Usenet that drove the culture, though, especially the netnews software itself, which was the first example most folks saw of extremely portable C code. My first free software work was the contribution of a port of the 2.11B news software to an obscure Unix-on-top-of-VMS thingie called Eunice (Larry Wall's Configure had a specific insult if it figured out that you were running Eunice, something about a foul, musty stink).

    Without this pre-existing free software culture in place, mass market machines like the Apple II and the IBM PC would not have produced it; there would have been no need. What would have happened in its absence, if machines got cheaper without converging on one architecture, would be that we'd all be using something like the BSD ports setup: a binary package would be useless, you'd have to download source and compile it locally, using "make world" to keep up to date. But it still could have worked.