British Cops To Create "Naughty Children" Database

An anonymous naughty reader writes: "The Telegraph is running this story about the British police setting up a secret database of children who misbehave or commit 'trivial misdemeanors' so that they can be tracked throughout their childhoods. Officials cited a rise in youth violence as necessitating these measures." You have to admire the forward-thinking of a secret police "database of children as young as three who they fear might grow up to become criminals."

Comments

Overkill?

[Karma 50]

From the beginning of the report

Any child who is thought to be at risk of committing a crime by the police, schools or social services, will be put on the database

Later on

street gangs provided a safer and more caring environment than their homes or classrooms

1) Is it necessary to treat all children as potential criminals because some are in gangs?

2) If these children are safer in gangs than at home or in the classroom then - instead of putting their names into a huge database - wouldn't it be better to take them into care where they will be safe?

Re:Overkill?

[Anonymous DWord]

Or even encourage them to join gangs, where they will be safe.

Christmas in London

[PD]

He's making a list
he's checking it twice!
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice
SATAN CLAUS is coming to town.

Cheekiness, causing nuisances?--off with 'er head!

[dlek]

From the article:

Children involved in cheekiness, minor vandalism and causing nuisances, will be targeted under the scheme.

Cheekiness?

Causing nuisances?

Let me get this straight. For so much as talking back to your teacher, you could be stuck in this database? For loitering too long in the candy shop, you could be flagged in a national registry?

Society's still arguing about whether it's ethical to put CONVICTED PEDOPHILES in such a registry, for crying out loud!

Man, the world's getting creepy...

This could be very very bad

[Chardish]

If a child is told by the government at a very young age that he is a potential troublemaker, won't he then feel somehow obligated to make trouble?

-Chardish

Re:Cheekiness, causing nuisances?--off with 'er he

[camusflage]

For so much as talking back to your teacher,

Man, and here I come to find out that the infamous "permanent record" that they always threatened you with back in school wan't real until now.

From the article: schools and social services already had information about young children in danger of becoming criminals but at the moment they did not share this with the police.

With good reason. Social Services treats, schools both treat and punish, and police punish. Absent a crime, treatment is what you get, not punishment.

"We are aware of examples from within London where caring professionals have been told in confidence by children that they have been victims of quite serious crimes."

And the operative word is, yes, CONFIDENCE. If the kid wanted to go to the police, they should go to the police, or be directed to do so. Legislatively forcing them to do so is a Bad Thing.

Re:Cheekiness, causing nuisances?--off with 'er he

[camusflage]

By contrast this is a secret database, used only by the police for surviellance purposes.

And that's precisely what's so creepy about this. Of course, all police are incorruptible, and no policeman would EVER abuse law enforcement databases.

Our society

[RupertJ]

Before all the Americans here start harping on about privacy and civil liberties, people should first discuss how our (British) culture is different to that of the United States. Britain already has one of the highest volumes of CCTV systems in Europe (stats were in the Guardian a few weeks ago if you want to check). We have come to accept the Big Brother mentality much more than our US counterparts, even though it does not always benefit us the way we would like it to (the Lawrence murder etc).

I don't know if many of you will be able to relate to this, but when I was a child I had the greatest respect for my elders and for the authorities/law enforcement. It seems that in today's "yob" culture, violence, underage drinking and anarchy are seen as ways of expressing how "hard" you are. This crew-cut sporting, Kappa wearing football hooligan image of thuggery is further idolised by sitting around empty bus stops vandalising public property while drinking Diamond White cider and smoking Mayfair (very cheap) cigarettes - It is seen as a fashion by many young people and actions which will gain them "respect" or credibility among their peers, much like the gang cultures in the USA.

I believe the monitoring of young offenders will be benficial - Anyone who has studied criminology or worked in/with the police should know the old phrase "once a scrote, always a scrote".

Crimes perpetrated by minors are on the rise (this is an undeniable fact). You only have to look at events like the Jamie Bulger killing to realise that our nation is sliding down the same slope as the US when it comes to atrocities commited by young people (Columbine killings to name one).

I don't see this database as a civil rights issue for the children. The database should be managed and controlled like the data in the PNC (Police National Computer) - with the greatest care and confidentiality.

Before anyone flames me with "what about the rights of the children", please first consider the rights of their victims and any others affected by their crimes.

Re:Our society

[hearingaid]

You only have to look at events like the Jamie Bulger killing to realise that our nation is sliding down the same slope as the US when it comes to atrocities commited by young people (Columbine killings to name one).

Great, I'm glad to hear it.

Youth crime is down throughout North America. You don't see it on the news, of course; announcements that "The World is Getting Better" don't sell very many papers.

However, on to the effectiveness of the proposed measures. Speaking as a former victim of bullies, I doubt very much whether a system like this would have helped me very much. I in fact did accumulate a rather large permanent record through my school days; however, it was mostly filled with things teachers wanted to believe rather than the truth (which was often remarkably obvious; there are teachers who apparently really believe that I attacked groups of five or six other children by myself, unarmed, with many of these children being several years older than me, at recess every single day - right).

The reason, IMO, youth crime is down these days is not because of measures such as this British one to track children, but rather because of a rise in simple common sense: when a 10-year-old and four of his friends are fighting with an eight-year-old, it's reasonable to suppose that the eight-year-old did not initiate the battle (which is what they were; I'd been to the emergency ward at the local hospital several times before I turned fifteen, and hospitalized some kids myself as well) but rather take the more appropriate action of punishing the group, even if the teachers don't like the eight-year-old.

It's also inappropriate for teachers to give students time off from class for the express purpose of rounding up other students to beat somebody up. (Okay, that only happened to me once.)

It's basic principles like these that could have stopped Columbine.

Re:Our society

[GigsVT]

I don't know if many of you will be able to relate to this, but when I was a child I had the greatest respect for my elders and for the authorities/law enforcement. It seems that in today's "yob" culture, violence, underage drinking and anarchy are seen as ways of expressing how "hard" you are.

As it has been throughout history. Zoot Suit Riots. for example.

Exerpt:
During the time leading up to the trial and for two weeks into the trial, Henry Leyvas and his co-defendants were not allowed to change their clothes by order of the trial judge, Charles Fricke. The district attorney reasoned, and Judge Fricke agreed, that the jury should see the defendants in the zoot suits, which were obviously only worn by "hoodlums". During the trial, 22 of the 24c o-defendants including Henry Leyvas were tried together.

-------------
The old always will attempt to oppress the youth, the youth will always find a way to rebel, just as the modern symbols you mention, cheap cigarettes, haircuts, etc, signify a certain rebellious attitude today, Zoot Suits, haircuts, and other things did the same 50 years ago.

Don't think that anything has changed, it hasn't. We are no better or worse off today then we used to be, as far as crime goes.

I don't know much UK history, but I seriously doubt that things have changed much there either.

Re:Our society

[rwally]

Well, as an American, I'll pipe in and give my two cents worth. At the seat of this problem, are our cultures so different? We both exist in a society that, for the most part, has both parents working (if the parents are still married), where we depend on nanny's and day care workers to rear our children and after school programs to entertain them until we can get off work. Society demands we work these long hours so we can provide the clothes and things our families need. We also tend to buy our kids way to many things to "entertain" them but not to "engage" them. We give all this authority to society to raise our kids, yet seem to get upset when society tries to correct our children.

As a kid, I was fortunate that even though my mom worked, she always saw us off to school each morning and was home when we got home from school. I romped and stomped outside most afternoons with the neighbor kids, playing cowboy and indians or whatever. Even though we had TV, I rarely watched it. When I got into my teens, I got into my fair share of trouble, but nothing like kids today. Why? I too had a respect for authority instilled in me by my parents and society. Kids are like ships that float on the currents of society. They will be guided by whatever wind and wave is the strongest.

Today's kids often lack that rudder to keep them pointed straight. They know they have influence over their parents and more and more they are able to exert that influence. Its really upsetting to watch a 14 year old tell their parents that if they aren't allowed to go to an all night boy/girl party, they (the kid) will call the police and say the parents are abusing them. The parents are so afraid of a system that automatically assumes the guilt of the accused, that they feel they have no choice but to give in. You say the above can't happen... try again, I witnessed it in a friend's living room one evening.

Should we monitor kids in a national database? No, I think that's just an attempt to cure the symptom, not the illness. When we as parents abdicate our authority to raise our kids to the government, we shouldn't be surprised when they use governmental institutions, like national databases, to try and manage the behavior of our kids.


Wally

Re:Our society

[hearingaid]

Its really upsetting to watch a 14 year old tell their parents that if they aren't allowed to go to an all night boy/girl party, they (the kid) will call the police and say the parents are abusing them.

Let's analyze this. Why is it upsetting?

• The parents don't want their 14-year-old offspring to be possibly having sex.
• The youth in question are willing to blackmail their parents into allowing entry to a potentially sexual situation.

Okay, so now, let's analyze a little further. Why are the youth willing to go so far in pursuit of what they obviously consider to be normal social interaction?

There's the rub. The 14-year-old doesn't think there's anything wrong or even unusual about 14-year-olds spending the night out in the company of friends of both genders.

Now, let's look at a little history.

How long ago, in Western civilization, was it considered normal - by those legally defined as adults - for 14-year-olds to participate in sexual activity?

Why... about 150-200 years, at the most. If you go back that far (particularly if you look at frontier societies), 14-year-olds were getting married. It's worthwhile to note that in Romeo & Juliet, the lovers (who get married and have sex) are roughly 14.

Now, how old is Western civilization?

Conclusion: During the vast majority of Western history, normal 14-year-olds have been having sex, or at least seriously thinking about it.

Of course, it hasn't been premarital sex, by and large (well not that anyone would own up to it anyway), but that's quite a different issue.

No, the real problem is the modern post-Victorian illusions of parents. Human society has changed a lot in a thousand years, but the basic instincts haven't been modified really at all, and there's a conflict.

Re:Our society

[rwally]

do you have kids?

In this case, the party was a kegger being held at a house where the police had routinely arrested the owner for allowing underage drinking and twice for assault on a child. Still, all the kids found this guys "Cool".

The point was, my friend as a parent, could see the inherent danger of possible arrest and was trying to protect his underage child from that danger. Its the same reason we don't let toddlers stick paper clips in the wall socket. Yeah, they'll learn a lesson, but it just might injure them for life. Of course maybe if we did, it would help clean out the gene pool.

Re:Our society

[hearingaid]

No, I've managed to dodge the kids bullet so far. However, I don't see how that's relevant: like everybody else who's once been 14, I remember what it's like. (Or at least that's what you would think.)

Toddlers are a different issue. We've restricted what toddlers can do for a very long time, probably since before recorded history.

My argument is that we're drawing the line too high. And yes, you're right in a sense: the police are suffering from the same illusions as the parents are. (At least in some cases. I still remember the 15-year-old boy I once knew who was drunk out of his mind one night and walked past a group of police officers bellowing that he was god. He was in a public park that was closed because it was after hours, and remarkably obviously underage: he looked about 12. Thus, he was guilty of three offenses: trespassing, underage drinking and disturbing the peace. Yet, they didn't arrest him. I'll never know the real reason why, but the best theory I've heard is that they were at a checkpoint checking for people without driver's licenses, and if they'd busted him, they might have missed their quota. It probably helped that he was white and had obviously middle-class clothes on, too.)

Maybe I shouldn't complain too much, though. I used to stick my thumb in wall sockets when I was a preteen because it felt neat. I suspect you'd disapprove of that too :)

Re:Our society

[hearingaid]

I guess the crux of this whole issue for me is that parents have, in many ways, given up their authority to raise their kids to government (or pseudo-government) agencies. How can we expect a governmental agency to respond except with a governmental process like a national database for kids who back talk.

The problem, I think, is the nuclear family. Two people just aren't enough. Most civilizations in history have used some form of extended family to raise children.

We've gone to this nuclear family model, and it's insufficient. Unfortunately, instead of going back to the extended family model, we're trying to artificially prop up the nuclear family and make it work.

On a personal note, I too put foreign objects into wall sockets as a young child. I wonder if that has any reflection on the fact that we both read slashdot?

Perhaps. I didn't start programming until after the first wall-socket experience. (Although not right after... that would just be too funky :)

Re:Our society

[hearingaid]

Simple. Quit trying to push nuclear families on to people.

Our whole family law system is based around the idea of the nuclear family. We make it very difficult for children to be passed around between caregivers that they're related to, unless they happen to be direct parents.

For an example, look at the Elian Gonzalez case. This case was hyped up by the American media as a battle between Cuban exiles and Cuban communism, but I think that's a misperception.

Elian was taken away from his father by his mother to be placed in the care of his extended family. Unfortunately, his mother died, and his father turned up to get custody back.

Elian's extended family couldn't even get a hearing to determine if they were more suited to take care of the young boy. The nuclear rights of the sole living parent were so strong as to completely override even the wishes of the dead mother, simply because she was dead.

Perhaps the right thing was done in the end: I don't know. But it does bother me - a lot - that Elian's family in Miami couldn't get a hearing. And the reason is because it's saying that the extended family doesn't exist.

Maybe if they...

[linzeal]

Have they thought to get the child sex offender list and the naughty children list together for drinks ?

Re:Cheekiness, causing nuisances?--off with 'er he

[Jon Chatow]

IANAL, but, AFAIAA, there is no such thing as the phrase 'in confidence' in the U.K. legal system WRT childen; if a child tells someone something, they are legally bound to tell the police if it is of a certain type of severity (abuse, etc.) and they cannot technically offer to withhold information from the police without infringing the law (even if they don't, as it would then be misleading...). I'm not entirely sure, but priests of the (Anglican) Church may be exempt from this.

Re:There's no evidence

[fireboy1919]

There's a huge coorelation between them - people who commit crimes as youngsters are more likely to do so as adults than those who do not commit crimes at a young age.

You don't consider that evidence? SOMETIMES you can argue that evidence is not causal. But the data is separated by TIME. So I'd have to say that your statement is incorrect, at least for the instance of actual crime. Now, mind you, you could be talking strictly about noncriminal behavior, then you're right.

Peter Rabbit - Guilty of Lettuce Theft?

[hughk]

I suppose we can imagine the situation when Peter Rabbit is accused of lettuce theft. Ok, maybe he doesn't end up in rabbit pie (like his father) but is he guilty because he walks past the field and some lettuces happen to be missing?

This idea is bad, bad, bad. What criteria will be used to enter kids in this register? They certainly haven't been through due process. Yes, there are some right little beggars out there, but perhaps someone could take a long-hard look at the parents.

Children are children. I can imagine a local education authority passing on comments that "little Johnnie is a trouble maker" between schools, but that is nothing to do with the police. Some of those trouble-makers grow up to be extremely useful people.