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SonicBlue Going w/ReplayTV 4000 Despite Lawsuit
Ughhgu writes "Looks like SonicBlue is going to go ahead and start shipping. The Cnet article even has a quote from SonicBlue. It seems they can't understand why the industry would sue them. Sign me up for one!" I'd dearly love to test one of these.
For more information on ReplayTV 4000, see the official site. Interestingly, it's the only networked digital video recorder with broadband connectivity.
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Translation: "Our business model is antiquated, and instead of trying to find a new way we're just going to sue anyone who takes advantage of it." Methinks the networks want immunity from the darwinian aspect of capitalism. As I'm sure has been said on /. before, perhaps it's just time to find a better way.
I suppose VCR's are illegal too... oh wait, FAIR USE.
:D
When is the industry going to realize that the only difference between digital and analog, in the eyes of the consumer, is ease of use?
I mean, given a VCR and some electronics skill, it would be a simple enough task to send video over a phone line, 100% analog, right?
This is the same idea.
And how do the networks lose money if people record their shows?
The only "bad" feature, as far as I can tell, is the commercial skipping option. If it were removed, I'm sure there would be nothing even remotely illegal in there. Of course, that won't stop a lawsuit
The article doesn't list any sellers, but I want to buy one quick, before Disney stormtroopers sweep down and confiscate them from the stores.
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
Read a book! Go hiking! Learn to cook! Become a viking!
Fix that squeaky door hinge. Eat a banana. Buy a Japanese orange. Lay into some sweet ill-nana.
Log onto the web. Shave your head. Watch the tides flow and ebb. Don't be caught dead
watching that damned tv.
Life is waiting.
These units have the capability to send shows from one ReplayTV unit to another. There's not a whole lot of detail given about this functionality, but I wonder whether it can be fooled into thinking your PC is a ReplayTV unit. I slobber uncontrollably when I think about a DVR that would let me archive shows to my file server.
I've been a Tivo owner for almost a couple of years now, and in that time I've modified mine with extra disk space, a web interface, an ethernet port, and a shell prompt on a serial port. :> And there is some work going on right now to play raw video streams from the unit streamed over the network (Andrew Tridgell of Samba fame is the main culprit there), but something like this -- and the stand that SonicBlue is taking on this issue -- makes me sorta want a ReplayTV 4000.
For those interested, there's very little information on the "Send Show" functionality listed on the ReplayTV web site, but I am curious how a user with multiple ReplayTV units and a broadband hardware firewall would allow people to send video to them. I assume it's a TCP session and let-'er-rip, but the site is annoyingly lacking on details. I'd love to know.
I find it interesting that many of these companies could be throttling this sort of device as an oligarchy, yet have little or no influence on the use of the technology. Actually that's a good thing, because of many concerns about there eventually being only a few companies, some years down the road, through which internet service will be provided and dictating what technology would be available and how it could be used by consumers.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I'll buy it when I can use a SMB or NFS drive over my network to store an amount of video only limited by my hard drives, and I can access the files from my PC (to play on the PC, to extract clips, whatever I feel like doing).
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
replay tv allows you to send the copy of the show that you recorded to someone else with a replay over a broadband internet connection... tivo just records... you can't get the digital file off the box.
MP3 players were supposed to be the end of music companies, VCRs were supposed to be the end of movie theatres, Photocopy machines were supposed to be the end of books, Radio was supposed to be the end of newspapers. You know what? None of them created the destruction that people feared they would. This will all blow over like the fears surrounding the RIO.
but shouldn't the networks be going after the individuals who utilize the features of replayTV to violate copyright and not replayTV itself? Just because replayTV has the capabilities to allow users to violate copyright, it doesn't mean that all users will or that relayTV is forcing them to. Sure, going after users is difficult and expensive, but they are the ones actually breaking the law.
I guess the same argument could be made for Napster, and look where that ended up.
-B
Fishy policy, I'd say...
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What is needed is a way to have a fully functional system that doesn't take the software upgrades that will inevitably be coming to disable the sharing features and other features that the networks are complaining about. To compare it to TiVo, to use the full TiVo features you must leave a phoneline plugged in to "phone home" and take whatever software upgrades are forced on you. Pull the phone line for more than 30 days and you basically have yourself a glorified VCR. At some point in SonicBlue is going to be forced to send a software update to disable or alter some of the features of the 4000. Unless there is a way to hack the software to have a fully functional system without taking software updates, you're just wasting your money on this.
Hey Hemos -- the story does NOT state that Sonic Blue "can't understand why the industry would sue them. It DOES say that they don't think they should be viewed by the industry as an enemy but rather as a partner. Keep it objective.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Sonicblue's DVRs range from $700 to $2,000, depending on the size of the hard drive, which can hold 40 hours to 320 hours of programming.
Ya... exactly which hard drive costs over $1,000?
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Not knowing what this was exactly, I went to the site linked in this article that slashdot had on it's site. I then went to the site that was linked on that article. These are two quotes that I guess would sum it all up for the companies suing.
" Unlike its competitors, Sonicblue will not charge a monthly service fee. "
"The boxes will display digital photos and skip commercials automatically, which differs from the ability in current ReplayTV boxes to fast-forward through commercials"
The first statement, that they would not charge, would knock tivo down. The second would literally destroy the way that television content is paid for and profitable. Nuts, but true. Just thought I would point out as to why the companies are suing, although I do love the idea and plan to get one as soon as it hits the market.
Click on the link.. Then type "www.replaytv.com or "www.sonicblue.com" into your browser, and find out.
Moderators, this is not Flamebait, it's common (freaking) sense.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
From the email they sent me:
Dear SONICblue customer,
Thank you for pre-ordering the ReplayTV 4000. A customer service representative will be contacting you shortly to confirm the specific details of your pre-order. In order to expedite the shipment of your ReplayTV 4000 model DVR, you are encouraged to call us toll-free at 1-877-ReplayTV (1-877-737-5298) to verify your desired shipping method and other details.
Our Sales department can be reached Monday through Friday, 5:00AM to 5:30PM (PST).
Thank you and Happy Holidays!
SONICblue Customer Care
I immediately called and waited about 20 minutes on hold. The main options for shipping ran $22 (ground) $55 (2nd day) and$80 for Next day, though he mentioned that they ship friday so next day would be Mon at the earliest. CA residents need to pay taxes.
People think Microsoft is the answer. Microsoft is just the question, "No" is the answer.
* Ban the programatic detection and elimination of ads. Do this either with laws, or de-facto, by owning media "browsers"
* Make ads use non-standard and random time lengths, sizes, volumes, ect., so that ads cannot be programatically detected
* Interrupt TV, web pages, and even music CDs and movies with ads at irregular intervals so that ads cannot be even generally anticipated
* Supperimpose ads on the sidelines of shows, web pages, CD covers etc. with a constant, nagging presence so that it is difficult to escape from ads even after they have been identified
* Work ads into the background of the action of shows, web pages, etc. to make it more difficult to mentally "tune out" the ads' presenece
* Work ads into the hearts of the plots of fictions, the comments of characters, and the opinions of pundits so that it becomes difficult to even distinguish ads from non-ads
* Replace entertainment, information, opinion, and art with ads wholesale; completely removes the troubling burden of somehow "integrating" ads with non-ads
* Attempt to ban the use of all mass media except for ads; eliminates non-ad competition
What will they think of next?
What they're really scared of is that with devices like this in the hands of the consumer, the networks' plans for pay-per-view replays go out the window.
What the networks want is to get more money from the consumer by charging for video on demand replays of TV shows. Keep in mind that they're pushing for "locks" on digitally delivered programs so they can mark programs as "unrecordable" and "protected" at which point your VCR/whatever will refuse to record/show the time-shifted broadcast.
The only reason they could want something like this is to be able to charge you for a time-shifted showing.
"Not home for the big game? Well, you can't record it, but we'll let you watch it as video on demand for a small fee! Suck it down!"
With a network of digital recorders that can share programs you no longer have to ask of family and friends, "hey, did you tape ER on thurs.? I missed it and forgot to tape it." Instead you search and download...and if people can do that, why would they buy a rebroadcast from the network?
This isn't about protecting an old and out of date business model, this is about changing current laws and controlling the technology so that a new business model can take off.
The bottom line is, I think TiVo is doing a very good job of making both the viewer and the network happy. The sonicBlue box can share over the internet out of the box - on the TiVo, mods are necessary that put this out of the reach of Joe Blow on the street. And TiVo underground has "secret" remote sequences.. once of which gets you a 30 second skip button on your TiVo. I've actually gone back to using the Fast Forward button instead. The automatic backup when you exit makes it easier.
If you're into hacking, you can add a 10mbps ethernet port to your Tivo, get bash running, and use ExactStream to pull programs off your Tivo, so you can burn them to a CDR.
:), this same show takes up over 9GB of space. I can't imagine trying to send something this large over broadband.
I personally think this whole "Send your friends TV shows over broadband" feature of ReplayTV needs some serious rethinking. At its lowest quality setting, an hour of TV takes up around 1.2GB of disk space on your Tivo. At the best quality (called "Best"
More than likely, ReplayTV is hoping to use this connection so they can push commercials and other promotional video clips to your unit (if you check ReplayTV's website, they say you *must* have broadband and you *must* make your box accessible from the internet - meaning you can't put it behind your firewall or NAT box.)
The banner ad died, we cheered. Then came the pop-under, the flash ad between pages, etc.
Yes, perhaps the idea of putiing commercials into breaks in the programming so that it does not interfere with the content is over. Commercials will be integrated into the program so that it cannot be skipped without skipping the program.
Yes, we now get to see a station badge in the lower right corner, and now we will have a marquee running across our shows too. "Make 7 Up Yours!"
Hammy
Actually, what caught my attention first was the previous line that you left out.
When in use, the Commercial Advance(TM) feature may not skip all commercials.
I wonder what that means...you just bought a $1700 appliance that selectively skips commercials? It doesn't skip the ones that are produced by companies affiliated with Sonic Blue I bet...
there are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots
Perhaps worse; we're all getting widescreen TVs now. How about instead of widescreen versions of the shows, HDTV ends up carrying a 4:3 show in the middle of the screen with ads on either side?
Ok, slashdotters, think outside the "box" will ya...
Ok, it is a little about broadcast material. It will allow transfer of information outside the advertisor's area. (look at the SHIVA laws regarding protection of local broadcast rights and the effect it is going to have on picture quality of DBS systems)...
But here is where it really matters. ALL PAY PER VIEW material. This includes Actual PPV, Premium Channels, DVD's, and Video's from blockbuster. Since the Replay will be able to record anything coming in on a given channel (like channel 3) at high resolution, and then distributed across the Internet to those that have not payed for the privelage, a technology like this, will result in less potential income to content producers. Less money to HBO, less to Disney, Less to Don King, less to the WWF.
The biggest difference between this and VCR is convenience and distribution. Distribution of Video tapes is so limited to not really matter in terms of money. When distribution becomes "easy" (And in this case, Napster is an appropriate analog), then non-payment use of PPV material becomes rampant and uncontrolled.
In this case it will only be a matter of creating "replay" groups that will create material that will be "easy" to get... "Hey, I missed the last episode of the Soprano's can someone send it to me?" "Does, any one have "Shrek?""
Fair use laws never intended to allow easy distribution of copies of material in a fashion that allows use outside of the intended commercial distribution method. It is meant to allow fair personal use.
IANAL but I think that they can demonstrate that this moves from personal use, to extra-commercial distribution of intellectual property, without compensation to the owners of that property.
that's fine - i'll grab a widescreen to 4:3 converter that chops off the sides.
Reboot macht Frei.
Which universe do you live in? Hell, I know more than 12 DirecTV hackers myself. There are thousands of 'em.
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
anyone have a clue to the hackability? The thing that's been holding me back on these is the required "service" to just see schedule or set the clock. I want my pvr to talk to my server which gather's show information from the net via perl scripts.
Free info, and my control. control of my viewing habit data.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Congratulations, you now have a 50" widescreen TV with a 19" 4:3 picture. For a couple grand, plus the cost of your converter.
It'd be cheaper to just tape a couple of pieces of paper over the screen.
Here we have the same concept, large corporations trying to control what consumers do with the radiation that is being beamed through the walls of private property.
I want some of what you're smoking. Hughes is beaming the signal, at their cost -- and you think it's unreasonable for them to want to get paid for it?
Launching a multi-million-dollar satellite into space isn't free, nor is keeping it running and fed with data. If they weren't paid for it, then nobody would have satellite TV.
If you want the shit to be free, you build the frickin' satellite, put it in orbit, and let everybody in North America use it for free. Otherwise, give it a rest. This "information wants to be free" crap is getting pretty old when all it really means is "I don't like paying for anything".
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
At some point in SonicBlue is going to be forced to send a software update to disable or alter some of the features of the 4000. Unless there is a way to hack the software to have a fully functional system without taking software updates, you're just wasting your money on this.
If SonicBlue ever sends down an update that takes away functionality that is advertised (printed on the box, mentioned on their website, etc), then they would do this at their own peril. It'd be like shouting, "I hope all of our customers get together and file a class action lawsuit against us!"
I think the MPAA or similar organization could get an injunction stopping the sale of these units, but could they force SonicBlue to send out an update taking away functionality that was promised to the customer during the sale?
Talk about prompting a backlash... yeesh.
"And like that
It probably means: "When the networks figure out how Commercial Advance(TM) works, and it gets popular, they'll figure out how to mess with it. Plus, the algorithm isn't exact, anyway."
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
I'd rather not see the average consumer wasting any bandwidth of the internet sending episodes of soap operas to each other. Besides wouldn't an hour of high quality video require sending something like 500MB to 2.0GB of data anyway?
Excuse me, I think my screen must have gone blurry or something. Did you just say "DivX AVI's" and "perfect digital quality" in the same context?
Look up the term "lossy compression" some time. (:
"How can you claim that you are anti-crack, while still writing a window manager?" — Metacity README
I want some of what you're smoking. Hughes is beaming the signal, at their cost -- and you think it's unreasonable for them to want to get paid for it?
If I mail something to you unsolicited, I can't require that you pay for it, even if you actually want it and decide to keep it.
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
I'd dearly love to test one of these.
So buy one, you cheap bastard, instead of whoring around for free samples with a /. submission.
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Here's a question: Instead of trying to STOP progress...Why don't Disney and them just make their own recorder? They could even integrate this into ABC somehow: If you have this specific recorder at this time, you will receave this special bonus footage of whatever instead of a commercial break. Something like that. It seems reasonable to me, and is certainly an improvement over bannig anyhing that could hin the lining of their pockets.
Anyway, just a thought.
You can watch TV while studying, while doing your homework, while programming, while reading, while chatting over the net, while playing Pokémon, while playing chess, while building a lego robot, while listening to music, while painting, while cuddling with your sweety...
It's all good, and stuff...
[o]_O
If I mail something to you unsolicited, I can't require that you pay for it, even if you actually want it and decide to keep it.
... what? A reason why it should be legal to steal satellite TV?
And this is
I'll try to use smaller words this time.
If - nobody - pays - for - satellite - TV - there - will - be - no - satellite - TV.
That's all I'm saying. If stealing the signal (i.e. decoding it without paying for it) were legalized, the net result would be that satellite TV would instantly disappear. It would no longer be in anybody's interest to broadcast it. Unless you're arguing that the world would be a better place if this happened, or expounding upon a scenario in which it wouldn't happen like that, you aren't making a useful point.
People need to make money, folks. They provide a useful service, you pay 'em for it. If you don't want to pay them, you'd better not expect service. This isn't a new phenomenon.
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
Here's what I watch, and why I want a DVR:
Monday: Stargate SG-1
Tuesday: 24
Wednesday: Enterprise, The Amazing Race
Thursday: Survivor
Friday: whatever
Saturday: whatever
Sunday: Stargate SG-1 repeats, Simpsons
Friday and Saturday, there's nothing on. Most other days, there's all of an hour of TV.
There are also TV shows I watch when I'm bored, or nothing else is on, or I'm paging through the channel list and see them, and nothing else is on, or are on every day.
Earth: Final Conflict, Andromeda, Relic Hunter, CounterSpin, the CBC National news.
The thing is, these are really good shows, but are not good enough to justify rearranging my schedule. Likewise with the X-Files, which I just stopped caring about.
If I had a DVR, I would record these TV shows when they were on (during the day, middle of the night, etc); as well I would record movies that were on Movie Central (there are quite a few good movies on this month, but never when I want to watch them, it seems).
After I had them recorded, I could then watch them whenever I wanted. Lazy days off, while working at home, when my favourite shows are pre-empted by hockey games, and so forth.
Ideally, I'd like to be able to convert some things to MPEG-2/DivX and store them long-term, but the vast majority of things I would do this for are CounterSpin (like CrossFire on CNN or HardTalk on BBC, only better), and the national news.
I honestly don't think the CBC, which is largely funded by my tax dollars anyway, would object to me storing news for the long-term. It's not exactly a hot trading item on IRC fservs, and it won't get me any accounts on hotline, to be sure.
Also, I would like to use such a feature to store television shows that I -cannot- buy seasons of on DVD. I'd rather buy a season on DVD than record, encode, and store (on hard drive or via iDVD), but if necessary, I would buy an 80 gig hard drive (or three, and RAID them) to store these episodes.
It would also be nice if they stopped charging so much for the damned DVDs. I mean, they cost me more than VHS tapes and they probably cost about $0.50 to press. Come on, cut me some slack here!
--Dan
If I mail something to you unsolicited, I can't require that you pay for it, even if you actually want it and decide to keep it.
... what? A reason why it should be legal to steal satellite TV?
And this is
I'll try to use smaller words this time.
If - nobody - pays - for - satellite - TV - there - will - be - no - satellite - TV.
That is true of the business plan I described as well, but it doesn't make it a good business plan.
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
All they have to do is sell it with the contentious fanctions disabled by default.
Then make it easy for the end purchaser or retailer to enable those contentious functions by having say a mini screw switch on the PCB acessed by a tiny round hole in the back one could sloyt a csrew driver down.
Just like DVD players in Oz are virtually all sold with multi-region re-enabled, even though officially they are all only region 4 capable.
VCRs were supposed to be the end of movie theatres
In fact, VCR IMPROVED attendance at movie theatres overall. It widened the scope for the movies, bringing a wholenew audience in. I'm not a huge movies fan, but watching crappy VHS copies just kind of makes you want to go to the BIG SCREEN and soak the thing in. It improved the possibility of getting a small film funded because the direct to video revenue stream was viable.
What broadcasters need to do is produce better BROADCAST television, so we find some benefit from watching live / watching through their hardware. Other than sporting events I cannot think of an example of a TV show I'd pay extra to watch 'live'
OR they need to find a different charging mechanism than subscription / advertising.
Actually. All TeeVee should be funded like the BBC. The BBC is great!
Just remember - DVRs don't infringe copyright, people infringe copyright.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I don't usually reply to Anonymous Coward posts, but I will in this case because the poster is incorrect.
The PVR would need to tell the digital box to tune to a particular
channel, and this isn't possible right now.
This is not true, in fact. My digital cable box has a serial port that the TiVo can connect to and change the channel via. Interesting technology. Now, if only the TiVo could get the channel lists via this port (but that would lose them subscription dollahs, wouldn't it?)
--Dan
See: just crap programs, or repeats. Hardly anything worth investing
thousands of pounds into.
Well excuse me, but I happen to like my crap programs and repeats.
Haven't you heard of things such as hobbies?
I have several hobbies, but when one comes home from work (or in my case, is working at home), one does not necessarily feel like going kickboxing or learning a new language. Television, music, and books are the three easiest, lowest-energy ways to relax, and I can listen to music and read books whenever I want. WHy can't I watch TV whenever I want?
Yeha, it's a luxury that I don't need, but so's my computer, so's my stereo, so are my books. Doesn't mean I'm not going to give up on literature.
--Dan