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Making Linux Look Harder Than It Is

drkich writes: "According to an article on The Register (by our very own roblimo). Many 'gurus' teaching new users about Linux make it look harder than it needs to be, and apparently fail to explain that yes, you can make PowerPoint-style presentations in Linux, you can view Web Pages that use Flash animation and other "glitz" features, and that you can manage all your files though simple "point, click, drag and drop" visual interfaces. Could the biggest problem with Linux usability be that most of the people teaching newbies to use Linux are too smart and know too much?"

24 of 764 comments (clear)

  1. Too smart? by Hobobo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It might not be too smart as much as too arrogant...

    1. Re:Too smart? by Tachys · · Score: 5, Funny

      It might not be too smart as much as too arrogant...

      What!! a Linux user arrogant?!? No way

    2. Re:Too smart? by odsign · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the problem might lie in the difference between being self-taught and being taught by others. In my own experience, I have found that I become quite frustrated in trying to help people with computers, simply because just about everything I know was either learned from plain ol' messing around, or through some sort of document, without any sort of instructor. When I'm asked for help, I think "Why can't they just figure it out themselves, like I did?" Physics, on the other hand, something which I'm also not too shabby at, I find quite easy to help people with, because it is something which I have had taught to me. I know how to talk to somebody who doesn't understand physics, because initially, I didn't understand physics, and had to be taught.

  2. Right ON! by lysurgon · · Score: 5, Insightful


    The biggest obstable to widespread Linux adoption is not its actual difficulty to use, but perception that it's for geeks only. An idiot proof installer would be good, but evangelests and PR that speaks to average users is perhaps the single most important thing standing in the way of more pervasive acceptance.

    I understand how the general attitude that "you've got to know how to use a computer to use a computer" gets bred. I used to work 1-800-support. But that won't cut it on the public image tip.

    GNU/Linux needs salespeople. Jeez, I can't believe I just wrote that, but it's true. The barriers are 90% cultural at this point....

    1. Re:Right ON! by nomadic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're starting to think like a marketer. "Our product is too hard to use." "Well let's advertise that it's EASY, that will solve the problem." Linux IS difficult to use. Worse than that it's annoying a lot of the time. God forbid you don't have the exact version of a library in the exact place that a new program expects. God forbid you want to cut and paste something from one window to another. I've been using Linux for about 6 years, and I've run into a lot of simple problems that are solveable but take too much time. And since I might not use it again for another year or two, when I DO have to use it again I've forgotten about it.

  3. Agreed by LinuxGeek8 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can only agree with it.
    Part of the problem is that most "guru's" know how to use a commandline, but not how to use a GUI.
    When I install software, I use the commandline, not Kpackage, Gnorpm or Rpmdrake.
    So when someone asks me how to use such a program, he mostly knows more about it then I do, I just know more about the underlying architecture.

    Though I do think the users are coming along.
    Recently I heard about people who were using Linux, because they liked Tux, and were collecting pictures of him. Sure.

    --
    Well, don't worry about that. We can get you back before you leave. (Dr. Who)
  4. Nope. by FFFish · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Biggest problem with Linux usability is a lack of applications to use with it.

    WAAAAIT! Hold off on that flame-thrower!

    I'm talking serious productivity applications.

    There is no Linux equivalent to MSWord. Yes, yes, yes: I *know* there is StarOffice and others. But they aren't MSWord.

    There is no Linux equivalent to AccPac. Yes, yes, yes: I *know* there are other accounting packages. But AccPac is the defacto standard.

    There is no Linux equivalent to Photoshop. Yes, yes, yes: I *know* there's Gimp. But it's not Photoshop.

    WAIT! Hold off on that flame-thrower!

    I know it's unreasonable to expect Linux apps to be identical in functionality -- and misfunctionality! -- and appearance to the big-time, deeply-entrenched "standards."

    But that's not the point. The point is: the problem with Linux usability is that its lacks applications that are direct clones of the standards.

    That's unreasonable, illogical, stupid, and every other abusive word you can toss at the idea...

    ...but it's the truth. The PHBs see it that way, and countless users who've spent years learning the ins and outs of the standard apps see it that way.

    It takes years of invested time and experience to become at all proficient at any comprehensive productivity application. No one wants to throw that investment away, just to move to Linux.

    And that is, I think, at the very core of it all, a usability problem. If it isn't exactly like the original, it is less usable for many folk.

    And now you can flame. Ouch.

    --

    --
    Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
    1. Re:Nope. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You're right, of course.

      But I do think that there are apps that are meant to be clones. Like StarOffice. The first time I used it, I felt like I was using office -- all the way to the exact menus and buttons you had to click to turn off auto formatting. I was amazed, until I realized that I hated StarOffice for all the same reasons I hate Office.

      But still this doesn't matter. Because no one is going to try out StarOffice to find out that it's exactly like MS Office, simply because it -isn't- MS Office and that's scary.

      Damnit.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  5. 100% agree by reaper20 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Newbie - "How do I use my dial up modem in linux, using redhat 7.2?"

    Expert - "First of all, you need to make sure ppp is compiled into your kernel, then recompile, RTFM."

    Newbie - "Is there an easier way?"

    Expert - "Yes, but first, lets's get you all the kernel patches, since you're using 2.4.9, which has some known VM problems under high loads, then, we'll need to gut your X server, then, you might as well recompile/build KDE, since the one in Red Hat sucks, which comes with GNOME, but I think it sucks, so I'll make sure that you think it sucks too ... you know, if you used Debian, this wouldn't be a problem...."

    Newbie - "What's a Debian?"

    ... and so on and so forth ....

    1. Re:100% agree by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Informative

      WRONG! you picked a wannabe or poser as your expert.

      Newbie - "How do I use my dial up modem in linux, using redhat 7.2?"

      realEXPERT - click on that configure dial up icon on your desktop and follow the instructions.

      an expert knows what he/she is talking about your expert example was that of a poser trying to make someone think they know what they were talking about and obviously never touched Redhat 7.2 or 7.1 for that matter.

      and that is a HUGE problem in linux. a ton of posers and very few real experts. Just like it is in the windows /mac/sun/everything else worlds.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  6. If my mom can explain it to my dad... by nsample · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think there's a lot of truth to this, but not just with linux. It seems to be a phenomenon at all increasing levels of sophistication, in many different fields.

    In my own example, I taught an advanced database course at Stanford, and how no trouble connecting with upper division CS majors and industry professionals in the course. Two quarters later, I taught "CS01i: Introduction to the Internet." I found myself at a loss sometimes trying to relate to the uninitiated Internet user. I had become detached.

    It seems that the same thing is true of linux. We get ingrained in an OS/culture that requires a certain level of sophistication to succeed. Then (for better or for worse) we often become trapped in that paradigm.

    I've found that with Linux education (and CS01i), that an old maxim holds true: "If I can tell my mom how to do it, and she can then successfully explain it to my dad, my job is done."

    It may sound like an elementary test of fitness, but it works as a good filter for teaching the uninitiated.

    (please note, this only works if your mom isn't a kernel contributor...):)

  7. Re:Right ON! -- addendum by lysurgon · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I should add a big "USER FRIENDLY DOCUMENTATION" to my previous post.

    I started geeting into this stuff about 2 years ago, and I'm naturally a technical guy. The documentation currently has a terrible 80/20 problem: 80% of it is...
    • Poorly written
    • Assumes you know things without telling you it assumes you know them
    • Was written by academics for academics (little practical value)
    • Or all of the above


    Most often, documentation is an afterthought to a coding project. This is not a good way to get novice users to get to use the software, because those writing the docs are too intimately involved with the project and usually burnt out to the max.
  8. Re:Yes by global_diffusion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As an addendum, I'd like to point out that using linux is extremely easy, especially with KDE or (somewhat) Gnome. It's the install that is tough for a newbie. When I first started using Debian, I was a little intimidated about picking out specific packages to install. I had no idea what was needed for the system I wanted. But nowadays we have Mandrake for the newbies, so even installing isn't a big problem (I tell people looking for linux distros that my mom could install Mandrake if she didn't have to do the partitioning step...).

  9. Take A+ for example by The+Ape+With+No+Name · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a *nix person who has had to pick up Winders skills, I will be the first to admit that all the Windows training I have taken has had the tone "This isn't really that hard."

    In contrast, I went to a LUG meeting where a workshop was held for Newbies and I distinctly remember someone saying "Look, mounting a share with NFS is hard." You would never hear this at a Windows workshop.

    Take my example:

    C:\net use p: \\foo\bar

    versus:
    hookado@monkeyfudge ~$ mount -t nfs gorilla:/export /mnt/disk

    Why is one "easier" than the other? Is it just cultural?

    --
    Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
  10. Maybe too stuck in their ways... by Gen-GNU · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I recently had this problem. My roommate was using my computer to burn some CD's. He had mp3's that he wanted in cd audio format. I tried to show him how to do what he needed...starting with command line ftp, to command line file management, to command line cd recording.


    He looked at me like I was from mars.


    Then he said, "Don't you have explorer like in windows?"


    I was stunned. Of course I did. I was running KDE for Crissakes. I never use it, so it just didn't occur to me. Then I showed him again, using konqueror for ftp, and file management. (He was impressed that you could use the same program to get files from other computers, and file management.) He did have to do command line cd recording, since I didn't have a gui, but he was ok with moving files to the right directory, and hitting up-arrow, enter.


    When he was done, using almost all GUI tools, he came in and said something about Linux not being as tough as everyone said. If he hadn't hit me over the head with the obvious, though, he would have given up in frustration at the command line.

  11. The problem is... by gillbates · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most casual users don't want all of this complexity - heck, to most the idea that they need to login to their home system seems absurd.

    Linux was written by geeks, for geeks, and it shows. Most Linux users (myself included) would not give up the security and reliability of Linux for the sake of using something simpler.

    And from a user design standpoint, the system fails - unlike windows, 3 different Linux boxes can have 3 different interfaces - each of which confusing to the new user.

    Linux will be ready for the clueless masses when:

    • Users can use the machine without logging in. (perhaps under some restrictive user account...)
    • Users never have to manually configure hardware - the kernel detects the hardware and compiles and loads the requisite modules automatically
    • There is one standard GUI interface across all distrubutions; even though GNOME and KDE are remarkably similar in function, the different appearance of windows will confuse the average user.
    • The user can install or upgrade any system with a single click of the mouse.
    Granted, this is an OS that not many geeks would like. However, there is a tradeoff involved - one can run a good, but obscure OS, or use a popular, but buggy and restrictive OS. If Linux is changed to suit the average desktop user, most technically astute users wouldn't use it; the old adage holds - make something that even an idiot can use, and only an idiot will use it.
    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  12. YES by MongooseCN · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Most of the people who know Linux well assume that everyone else can learn Linux just as easily as them. I think that's about all that needs to be said because that is all I have ever seen.

    These are some of the major points I've seen guru's forget about "average" computer users.

    1. Average computer users are afraid they will break their computer. Example: Many think if they mess up setting up a drive in the BIOS, the drive will physically break.

    2. Average computers users need to get their information visualy. Just look at all the Visual MS products. People don't know where to look for information so they need all the info laid out in front of them. They need menus and GUI's that can show them all the options they have to use. They don't have the time or ability to hunt out where the information is they need.

    3. Average computer users have a very short time span for learning something on a computer. A computer is just another utiliy they need to use. They don't learn how it works for the same reason they don't learn how their TV, VCR, microwave, refrigerator, cellphone, etc works, they don't have the time. They expect someone else to do all the detailed work for them.

    4. It takes logic to understand a computer, and most people just can't grasp the concept of logical thinking. "The computer shouldn't do that when I click there!" "Why?" "Because.. that's a stupid thing to do!"

  13. No, the problem is not that it looks too hard by Monkeyman334 · · Score: 5, Informative

    It is too hard. Okay, maybe not too hard, but definitely a bit harder than Windows or Mac. After the wu-ftpd warning I decided to update all my RedHat 6.2 servers to the latest version. What do you know, the RPM doesn't work. Why? Because it wants RPM version 4. So I go to install RPM 4, it wants glibc. Surprise surprise, glibc wants RPM 4. And when I got my RedHat user friend of many years, he managed to get glibc installed using force or nodeps, but RPM version 4 and wu-ftpd also wanted xinetd, and for some reason we couldn't get it installed. So we had to resort to getting the latest 7.2 CDs and taking the server down for a while for an upgrade. Windows on the other hand, will tell you when updates are there. It installs them automagically and one reboot is all that's needed. I hear people claim that Windows Update can make it unbootable, I've never seen it happen.

    Now, installing something like flash under Mozilla/Linux. I managed to install it fairly easily. But at our crowded computer lab at school, where the only box left was a linux one (we usually use mac), a student couldn't quite figure it out. He downloaded the file, and that was the end of his knowledge. He doesn't know how to use tar. And I'm sure he didn't know what root was or where mozilla was installed. I even had to start X for him. In Windows/IE it's auto install. You click "Yes" on a prompt and it's installed.

    When I was first running Debian I wanted to get my sound card running to play some music. I went into modconf and I just couldn't get it installed, even though a pnpdump seemed to find it. So a friend suggested ALSA, which I tried to install. What do ya know, I need to do a kernel upgrade. It still doesn't work. In Windows its found, you put in the driver CD or floppy, don't have to worry about mounting, and a reboot. Maybe it's just my crappy hardware, or I'm just stupid, but with 6 billion people on this planet, I'm sure more than one person has the same problem as I do. The worst part is I got smart people with their degrees to try and help me out, who have been using linux for years. Like the sysadmin for our school district, someone else who just got their CS degree and is a debian package maintainer, someone who is in college learning the kernel. They couldn't get it installed as fast I could, someone who has taken zero (0) college courses in Windows.

  14. Re:Too knowledgeable?? Hardly. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Well, I'm not going to say I'm humble, but I will say that I already have everyone I'm teaching linux too impressed enough where I don't need to show off. ;)

    Anyway, I actually have found myself having problems helping people with linux because I really can't see the problem from their point of view. It's hard for me to recognize what they will or won't know, and I tend to make assumptions, completely unintentionaly, about their knowledge base such that I end up just confusing them.

    It also doesn't help that I have never wanted my Linux box to be "easy to use" (as defined by those who say Linux needs to be more so), and thus have a hard time trying to make it so for others.

    All in all, I'm just not that great a teacher, but I do think that the difference in technical knowledge is part of the problem.

    Not that roblimo isn't still an ass.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  15. You can't convince anyone that it's hard. by jchristopher · · Score: 5, Insightful
    My main frustration with Linux is not only that it's hard, but that you can't even convince anyone that it's hard! There is a big "can't see the forest for the trees" problem.

    Example: "How do I use a USB hard drive under Linux?" Answer: "modprobe usb-mass storage, and use the mount command (man mount)"

    And no one sees why there is a problem with such a statement.

  16. Re:it's a two way street.... by Osty · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Today, a guy at work told me that Linux will never catch on because there is a lack of virus software for it. I had to explain it to him, he still didn't believe me!

    Did he not believe you when you said, "Linux doesn't have any anti-virus software because Linux is not popular enough yet to be the target of viruses"? Or was it because you told him that Linux is intrinsically safe from viruses. That's not true, and here's why:


    Right now, most people running Linux know better than to do everything as root. As such, there is a logical separation between what the user can do, and what can damage the system (in that, little of what the user can do can damage the system). Also, right now, there aren't any e-mail apps that are as featureful (bugful, if you must) as Outlook, in that they won't automatically handle whatever attachments you get (you have to download the attachment and then load it up with whatever tool you use to view it). This is a bane when it comes to executable code (already been fixed in Outlook for some time -- people just don't patch), but it's a boon for everything else. It exemplifies a fundamental design difference between the Windows experience and most Linux GUI experiences -- being that Windows is very much "Document-centric". You don't open Word and then open a document. You don't open Excel and then open a spreadsheet. You just double-click on the document or spreadsheet, and Word (or WordPerfect, or Star Office, even, if that's how you have things set up) fires up and loads that document for you. Now, to get off of that tangent and back on to the original point -- as Linux grows in the desktop market (if Linux grows in the desktop market), more and more and more people will be running as root 24/7/365. What that means is that suddenly, viruses are very much dangerous. Or, users start clamoring for an e-mail app that has the same power as Outlook, at which point we get mail virii spread through Linux. Oh, sure, it won't affect you, but what about that guy at work?


    The point? Linux is not intrinisically safe from viruses. It's "safe enough" right now, through a combination of obscurity (it's not worth the time to write a virus for it, as it'll see little spread) and security (though a virus could still trash a user's $HOME just fine, even if it's not running as root). Expect to see that change if Linux does penetrate further into the desktop market (this will take some time -- the Macintosh is fairly free from virii mainly due to the obscurity argument, so Linux would have to substantially overtake Apple's marketshare to make itself a target).

  17. fonts by jchristopher · · Score: 5, Insightful
    A perfect example would be fonts. Install RedHat 7.2 (very recent, presumably containing the most up to date widgets). Start it up, fire up Netscape. See how shitty the fonts look?

    I've seen people ask how to fix that. I'm sure there's an answer, too. But the fact is that it's fucking RIDICULOUS to have fonts that look like that in the year 2001.

    If you give them some complicated instructions for fixing it, 95% of new users will just say "screw that" and either: 1) abandon Linux, thinking it sucks, or 2) keep using Linux with crummy fonts, and think it sucks, or 3) keep using Linux and waste a bunch of time fiddling until the fonts are right.

    All three of these situations are horrible, yet it doesn't seem to bother any of the developers that RedHat still ships this way.

    This type of situation is common and it infuriates me that not only are you assumed to be stupid if you can't make it work, but everyone is amazed that you'd complain about it in the first place, because fixing it is supposed some sign of your computing prowess.

  18. /. and Linux Bigots by quakeaddict · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People who post here are very smart. In many ways they sort of look at the computer as something that an average person shouldn't really touch unless they know what they are doing, and if they don't know how to administer their own box then that is their problem.

    And for people who devote alot of their time to making the stuff work, I don't find this unreasonable. I mean, after all there is real effort and dedication involved is it too much to ask to read a man page?

    What MS gets and the Linux commnity doesn't is that most people just want the damn thing (the computer) to do something useful. They want to turn it on and have it work. They don't give a crap about the technical merits of the OS or the effort behind it and for the mass market that is how it should be.

    They don't want to mess with config files.

    They don't want to care about what hardware is in their box.

    They do want to be able to plug stuff in (USB) and have it just work.

    They don't want to compile a program to install it.

    They dont want to untar things

    They don't want to deal with RPM (they want something called setup.exe).

    they want easy access to the internet.

    they want a browser that works.

    and above all they certainly do not want to have to recompile a kernel to upgrade their OS.

    MS has money and time to spend on these and other usability issues. Linux does not. Linux is not easy to use unless you are steeped in Unix. There is no way around it.

    I think Linux should stop wasting cycles on a mass market that will never happen.

    --
    I'm still working on a clever footer.
  19. Re:Right ON! -- addendum by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Insightful
    > I should add a big "USER FRIENDLY DOCUMENTATION" to my previous post

    One problem with that approach.

    Users. Don't. Read. Documentation.

    Go around your office, and ask your non-technical (marketing, accounting, etc.) Windows users questions like:

    • Did you get a manual with your computer? Did you use it?
    • How did you learn how to use Windows?
    • Did you get a manual with Windows?
    • Have you read any manuals for Internet Explorer?

    I'll be amazed if more than 5% of your user community answers "yes" to any of those questions.