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Tolkien's sources: Icelandic Sagas and Beowulf

Danny Yee writes with the perfect background reading (once you've finished the Tolkein books, of course) before checking out the new LoTR movie: "For something completely different, reviews of The Complete Sagas of Icelanders and Seamus Heaney's Beowulf. Essential background reading for serious Tolkien fanatics! You might also want to check out my other medieval literature reviews." The Complete Sagas of Icelanders author Viar Hreinsson pages 2200+ (5 volumes) publisher Leifur Eiriksson rating 9 reviewer Danny Yee ISBN 9979-9293-0-8 summary stories of Viking Age feuds, battles, legal conflicts, love affairs ...

Beginning in the 9th century, settlers from Norway created in Iceland a society of fiercely independent farmers, fishermen, and traders; in the 13th and 14th centuries their descendants wrote a whole series of stories about them. These family sagas tell of feuds, duels and battles, legal conflicts, love affairs, travels and raids to Norway and the British Isles and further afield, and the attempted settlement of Vinland. The Complete Sagas of Icelanders is the first complete coordinated translation of these into English, containing all forty family sagas and fifty shorter tales.

The focus of the sagas is always on individuals and their relationships. They offer us strong men and outlaws, legal experts and tricksters, poets and warriors serving Norwegian kings, respected leaders and arbitrators -- and powerful matriarchs, faithful wives, and trouble-stirring women. The saga writers never venture directly into the minds of their protagonists, but they produce vivid, distinctive portraits of individuals caught up in memorable events: Egil, imprisoned in York by King Eirik Bloodaxe, with one night to compose a poem to save his life; the final ridge-top stand of the outlawed Gisli; Askel working for peace, to the point of trying to arrange in advance the settlement for his own death; Kormak's life-long obsession with Steingerd; Gunnar turning back from going into exile, moved by the beauty of the landscape; the imperious Gudrun, revealing at the end of her life which of her men she had loved the most; the burning of Njal and his family and the protracted legal and armed struggle to revenge them; and many others.

The sagas draw on local family stories, older myths and legends, and the broader body of medieval literature, along with a good deal of invention and original creation. While some are awkwardly structured, others rework their sources in sophisticated ways and some are literary masterpieces. In some, unity is provided by a biographical focus, sometimes ending with a peaceful death at the end of a long life, sometimes building with tragic inevitability to a climactic killing and the resulting resolution. Others are almost political studies, tracing the shifting balance of power between leading figures in a particular region. And while this genre of sagas is defined by a realistic treatment of early Iceland, many are (or incorporate) comic stories, fantastic tales, and romances.

In their attention to the actions of individuals within social networks, and the working through of their consequences, the Icelandic sagas are important precursors of the modern novel. They directly influenced many writers, among them Walter Scott and J.R.R. Tolkien. The sagas are also a valuable source of information about medieval Iceland, a subject of interest to more than medievalists. One of its notable features is that it had a sophisticated legal system but no executive government, which makes it a magnet for political theorists -- if you search the web for information on medieval Iceland, you'll find a running fight between the libertarians and anarchists over who can best claim it as an exemplum.

Some aspects of the sagas do take a little getting used to. They are episodic, sometimes covering events over several generations and jumping across decades to continue the story of a feud or the history of a region, and they alternate between periods of tension and relaxation. Characters are often introduced with a paragraph or two of genealogical information unrelated to the main story; and the sheer density of names, often shared by several characters, can be confusing. Though they never replace human actions and decisions as explanations of events, elements of foretelling and prophecy are nearly ubiquitous in the sagas. And obviously much of the cultural context is foreign to the modern reader. One soon becomes accustomed to these things, however, and overall the sagas are among the most accessible of medieval genres.

Unless your library has a copy or will obtain one for you, The Complete Sagas of Icelanders is probably not practical for a newcomer to the sagas; cheap paperback editions of any of the better known ones should be easy to come by. But if you become seriously interested in the sagas - and I should warn you that they are addictive -- then it's hard to go past The Complete Sagas.

Firstly, the translations are good. My academic friends assure me they are mostly of high quality, accurate enough to be usable for scholarly purposes. More importantly for the lay reader, they are lively and readable, avoiding inappropriate archaism or colloquialism. The sagas are each preceded by a brief note on when they were written and their manuscript sources, but otherwise they are clean, mostly unburdened by unnecessary commentary or annotation. The only regular exceptions to this are marginal glosses for the "kennings", highly figurative stock phrases in the poetry embedded in some of the sagas, and some explanatory notes where texts are partial or put together from different sources.

For readers who do want some background information, The Complete Sagas has a really good general introduction, a glossary of terms which are likely to be unfamiliar, some maps, and an index of characters. A minor complaint here is that the maps could show more detail and that they are all at the end of volume five, instead of in the appropriate volumes - and the index of characters is useful enough that it could almost have been repeated in each volume.

Perhaps most importantly, this is the only uniform, coordinated translation of the family sagas available. Collecting alternative translations of them all would be a lot of work, if it is even possible, and the result would not offer as coherent a presentation of the genre. Places, characters, and events often feature in several sagas, and motifs, stock phrases, and thematic elements often recur; a uniform translation scheme makes these connections easier to follow. On the other hand, the sagas do vary in style, mood, and structure, and this too is easier to appreciate when not obscured by variations in translation approach.

Finally, The Complete Sagas of Icelanders is beautifully produced. The leatherbound volumes find an elegant balance between attractiveness and austerity, and are of a size, shape and heft that makes reading them a pleasure (unlike some "great books" editions which are obviously designed to look impressive on shelves rather than to be read).

One minor caveat is that the title The Complete Sagas of Icelanders, while technically accurate, may mislead some: all the sagas about early Iceland (the "family sagas") are indeed included, but not any of the "fantasy" sagas such as the Saga of the Volsungs (based on older legends) or "romances" (based on continental models) from the same period. We will just have to hope that Leifur Eiriksson Publishing takes on the translation of those as a future project. A paperback edition would obviously make The Complete Sagas much more accessible; barring that, it would be nice if the volumes were available separately, so people could collect the set over a period of time.

Purchase The Complete Sagas of Icelanders at FatBrain or Leifur Eiriksson Publishing.

Beowulf author Seamus Heaney, translator pages 106 publisher Faber & Faber rating 9 ISBN 0-571-20376-0 summary An effective verse translation of the Anglo-Saxon epic.

For those unfamiliar with Beowulf, it is a late first millennium Anglo-Saxon epic about the hero Beowulf's fights with three monsters: Grendel, Grendel's mother, and, fifty years later at the end of his life, a dragon. Since its rediscovery in the early nineteenth century, it has become a recognised classic, translated scores if not hundreds of times. Not being able to read Old English, all I can say here is that Heaney's translation gave me a better understanding of why people rave about the poem than any of the others I have read.

Perhaps the most notable aspect of Heaney's Beowulf is that it can be read almost as if it were prose - and then mined more deeply for the poetry. Heaney writes in his introduction:

"I came to the task of translating Beowulf with a prejudice in favour of forthright delivery. I remembered the voice of the poem as being attractively direct, even though the diction was ornate and the narrative method at times oblique."
So he captures something of the Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse form, but not at the expense of "the sound of sense;" he doesn't inflict awkward archaisms on the reader and is never difficult to read. Here is a brief sample, from the wait after Beowulf dives to attack Grendel's mother.
"Immediately the counsellors keeping a lookout
with Hrothgar, watching the lake water,
saw a heave-up and surge of waves
and blood in the backwash. They bowed grey heads,
spoke in their sage, experienced way
about the good warrior, how they never again
expected to see that prince returning
in triumph to their king. It was clear to many
that the wolf of the deep had destroyed him forever."
An immense body of critical work on Beowulf exists. In his introduction Heaney very briefly touches on this, offering a few hints to understanding and interpreting the work. He also discusses some translation issues, feeling obliged to justify his use of one or two obscure Irish words.

Scholars may cavil at Heaney's liberties ("an interpretation and not a translation") and there are certainly better translations for scholarly purposes. Translation is always a balance between competing concerns, however, and a verse translation that attempts to convey something of the power of the original as a poem must inevitably deviate from the literal. Tolkien's seminal essay "The Monsters and the Critics" urged scholars to approach Beowulf not just as a philological curiosity or a source document for Anglo-Saxon language and history but as a poem and a story -- and Heaney offers lay readers a chance to appreciate something of that too.

Purchase the U.S. edition of the Heaney's Beowulf from FatBrain

29 of 332 comments (clear)

  1. Christianity... by FortKnox · · Score: 5, Informative

    I know this won't be a popular post to most slashdotters, but Tolkien was a devout christian (he converted CS Lewis to christianity), and several theologists suggest that his stories parallel many christian stories/tales. They even suggest that Gandalf was an "Angel" more than a "wizard" (which almost sounds like an excuse, so they can read the books and watch the movie, but I digress).

    I don't have any links right now, nor do I necessarily believe that this is the case, but I thought it might add to the discussion.

    Please no religion flames here, its just a point

    --
    Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
    1. Re:Christianity... by King+Of+Chat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Certainly large parts of the Silmarillion owed a lot to Christian mythology. The fall of Melkor certainly parallels the Satan thing - and yes, the Wizards to have cetain characteristics of angels.

      There are elements of the Norse stuff in there though - the quest of the human hero (sorry, been that long I've forgotten the names) to recover a silmaril so that he can marry the elven princess etc. is a very epic sort of a thing. Mind you, there are parallels to be drawn between many religions. Odin's trial hanging from the tree Yggdrasil for nine days in order to give mankind the secret of the runes could be compared with the crucifiction.

      The Silmarillion (nor Marillion - they're bloody rubbish) is well worth a read (although it takes some concentration). Don't judge Tolkien just by LOTR any more than you would judge him just by The Hobbit.

      --
      This sig made only from recycled ASCII
    2. Re:Christianity... by Kheldarstl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually much of "Western" Fantasy parallels the Judeo-Christian worldview, just as "Eastern" Fantasy parallels Buddhism, or Taoism or Hinduism. This in no way should detract from the overt pleasure of reading these tales. My Anthropology Prof. as an Undergrad was a huge Tolkien fan and as such integrated elements of LOTR into his lectures to provide a "Neutral" example of some cultural traits i.e. the Hobbits as English Peasantry, the Elves as the Romantic ideal of Nobility, etc. An important point which my Anthro professor made was that Tolkien was writing to an audience with a Judeo-Christian background, he WANTED to have his audience draw parallels between Biblical stories and his stories, I feel he was much more subtle about it then C.S. Lewis but the parallels are there and make sense when Tolkiens background is taken into account.

      I would be interested in reading decent Fantasy novels written from a non-Judeo-Christian perspective as well if anyone knows of any and could post titles.

      Just my $.02 worth

      Keith

    3. Re:Christianity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
      "I do not think Tolkien converted Lewis. Lewis was evanglical (see Narnia, the Screwtape Letters other christian writings) Tolkien was not evangelical."


      Actually, Tolkien's biography (by Humphrey Carpenter) and Lewis's autobiography do pretty much state that Tolkien was one of the major figures in Lewis' conversion from Atheism to Christianity.

      From Lewis' autobiography:
      "When I began teaching for the English Faculty [at Oxford], I made two other friends, both Christians who were later to give me much help in getting over the last stile [to accepting Christianty]. They were H.V.V. Dyson and J.R.R. Tolkien. Friendship with the latter marked the breakdown of two old prejudices..."

      According to Tolkien's biography (which I don't have in front of me right now to quote), one of the major catalysts to Lewis's acceptance of Christianity was a conversation between Tolkien and Lewis on the nature of myth and how in the story of Jesus Christ the myths of antiquity came true in human history. For a poetic rendering of this conversation, read "Mythopeia" by Tolkien.
    4. Re:Christianity... by vidarh · · Score: 3, Informative
      Several of the other characters as well have names from norse mythology. If you read the Seeress prophecy (Voluspa), you'll find a whole load of names that are used in Lord of the rings. Some of the names from these sections of Voluspa, for instance, should be familiar (yes, I know there's tons of names in them that Tolkien didn't use too :):

      10. Then Módsognir became the greatest of all the dwarfs, and Durin the other; they made many manlike figures dwarfs of earth, as Durin said.

      11. Nýi, Nidi, Nordri, Sudri, Austri, Vestri, Althjóf, Dvalin, Bívor, Bávor, Bömbur, Nóri, Án and Ánar, Ái, Mjödvitnir.

      12. Veig and Gandálf, Vindálf and Thorin, Thrór and Thráin, Thekk, Lit and Vit, Nár and Nárád, I have now correctly, Regin and Rádsvid, reported the dwarfs.

    5. Re:Christianity... by glenmark · · Score: 5, Informative

      Tolkein intentionally kept his real-world religious beliefs out of his Middle-earth works, preferring instead for his heroes to display an intrinsic moral and ethical nature, although his world had its own creation myth (as described in The Silmarillion). Within that mythical construct, Gandalf and the other Istari (the Wise) could indeed be characterized as angels incarnate.

      Here is the Middle-earth mythos in a nutshell. There is a central deity named Illuvitar in the language of the elves. From Illuvitar's thought's sprung the Valor, a host of beings who one might consider as demigods or archangels. Through a magical song, Illuvitar and the Valor created the world, and Illuvitar breathed life into the living things there. Illuvitar created Elves and Men, but left them sleeping while he sent the Valor to prepare the world for their awakening. One of the Valor, Melkor (the first Enemy) was jealous of Illuvitar's ability to create life, and sought to undo the work of his fellow Valor.

      Where does Gandalf fit into all of this? Ranking just below the Valor, there existed another rank of divine beings known as the Maier (roughly equivalent to the angels of Christian mythology) who served the Valor. Some of these were corrupted by Melkor. Among these corrupted Maier were beings who would come to be known as Balrogs (such as the fire-deamon fought by Gandalf in the Mines of Moria).

      Melkor's main lieutenant was a fallen Maier known as Sauron, who became the primary Enemy after the eventual defeat of Melkor. Eventually, to counter Sauron's rising influence in Middle-earth, the Valor dispatched a number of Maier there, made incarnate. The Maier-made-flesh were known as the Istari (the Wise), and included among their ranks Gandalf the Grey (Mithrandir), Saruman the White, Radagast the Brown, and the two Blue Wizards, who are only mentioned in passing.

      I'm only hitting the high points here. For the full story, it is well worth reading The Silmarillion, or at least perusing the Encyclopedia of Arda.

      --
      *** Quantum Mechanics: The Dreams of Which Stuff is Made ***
    6. Re:Christianity... by elmegil · · Score: 3, Informative

      There were some previous Slashdot articles (which I'm too lazy to go look up) about Roger Zelazny and a few of his novels based on hinduism, theories of egyptian theology, etc. They are more hard sf explanations of the myths (kind of like Stargate in a way), but they're great novels, and they do have a little bit to say about the traditions he mines. One of them is _Creatures of Light and Darkness_, another is _Lord of Light_. I suspect a search in slashdot for either of those would bring up the previous discussions.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    7. Re:Christianity... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Insightful


      > Certainly large parts of the Silmarillion [amazon.com] owed a lot to Christian mythology. The fall of Melkor certainly parallels the Satan thing - and yes, the Wizards to have cetain characteristics of angels.

      The problem for people who want to really push the idea is that the Tolkien mythos doesn't have any Redeemer, which is the central concept of the Christian mythos.

      Conversely, the Numenor meme plays a fairly large role in the Tolkien mythos, but it's derived from the Atlantis myth rather than from Christian myth.

      The problem here is that people see a few points of contact between Tolkien and Christianity, know that he was a Christian, and take that as license to hammer everything else into the mold. But it simply doesn't stand up if you look at it objectively.

      The interpretation of LoTR as an allegory for WWII seems to work better, though Tolkien himself disavowed it. I'm with those who say that Tolkien was immersed in Western culture (with a deeper than common familiarity with the languages, literature, and folklore of northwestern Europe), and not unexpectedly his writings reveal some of the notions deeply embedded in his culture.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    8. Re:Christianity... by Samrobb · · Score: 3, Redundant

      I'm lacking mod points, so instead, I'll just repost the AC comment from below:

      From his own letters:

      "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work," he wrote, "unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like "religion", to cults or practices, in the Imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." (Letter 142).

      http://catholiceducation.org/articles/arts/al0108. html

      --
      "Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
    9. Re:Christianity... by Earlybird · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't remember the exact reference -- though I think it's mentioned in the introduction to the first book of The History of the Lord of the Rings -- but Tolkien later regretted stealing names from Voluspå (note correct spelling; the title means "wolf's prophecy") for The Hobbit, saying that with hindsight, choosing the names was admittedly pretty silly and unoriginal of him. In writing its sequel, The Lord of the Rings, he was forced to keep those names.

    10. Re:Christianity... by Hieronymus+Howard · · Score: 3, Informative

      You could also arguably equate the Valar and the Maiar to the norse Vanir and Aesir. OK, so they're not quite the same but there are some similarities.

      HH

    11. Re:Christianity... by ptrourke · · Score: 3, Informative
      1. Devout Catholics identify themselves as devout Christians.

      2. C.S. Lewis is best known outside of the Narnia and Perelandra books as a Christian apologist, and his religious identity in writing those books was as an Anglican. Anglicans sometimes identify themselves as "High Anglican" or "Anglo-Catholic," meaning Anglicans whose doctrinal beliefs were closer to those of Catholics than were those of other Anglicans; C.S. Lewis did not identify himself as such (while e.g. T.S. Eliot did, explicitly describing his conversion from Unitarianism to Anglo-Catholicism as becoming "Christian").

      Thus the doctrinal differences between Tolkien and Lewis were rather minor: similar to those between an American Catholic and an American Episcopalian.

      3. That Tolkien was a Christian, and that his Christianity consciously informed his writing, is undeniable. But he was also an Anglo-Saxonist and Medievalist, and some of his Christian imagery is probably unconscious, in reflection of the medieval influences on his work. Also, that professional interest exposed him to a lot of non-Christian imagery. In other words, many of the influences identified in this thread are probably validly identified. But allegorical interpretations, on the other hand, were explicitly denounced by Tolkien, and one should speak not of Tolkien deliberately identifying e.g. Gandalf as an angel, but using a different name (which would be a kind of allegory, though a transparent one), but rather as Tolkien using the concept of angels (a concept in he which might well have believed) to help him create Gandalf.

      It is worth noting that the Christian element in LOTR isn't as remarkable as that in the Perelandra books.

    12. Re:Christianity... by jjo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, I consider the Christian element in LOTR to be more remarkable than that of the Perelandra books, because it is deeper and more subtle.

      Lewis is quite up-front about the moral and theological bases of his imaginary universe, and his protagonists often mull over (for the reader's benefit) the moral dimensions of newly-discovered worlds and creatures.

      As has been mentioned, Tolkein quite consciously removed any overt religious elements from LOTR, but be did so only to highlight the underlying relgious/moral message, and to make it more accessible. In this he succeeded magnificently.

    13. Re:Christianity... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Interesting
      > Part of the problem here, however, is that Christians, including Tolkien, have this habit of assuming that Christianity invented or dominates things like forgiveness and friendship and good vs. evil. So, they consider having written a story that emphasizes those themes to be distinctly emphasizing Christianity, when in fact they are quite universal in character.

      > This could exaplain why Tolkien believed himself to be writing a very Christian story, but in fact one that rarely comes accross like that to anyone not interested in forcing the comparison.

      Thanks to everyone who commented, especially those who posted the quote from The Man Himself.

      However, per the quotes above, I simply can't see it by looking at the text. The following would genuinely terrify me:
      Final Exam. 1 question, 100 points. You have three hours.

      List the ten most important characters in Lord of the Rings, briefly justify the inclusion of each in the top ten, and then describe the role each plays in the interpretation of LotR as a Christian allegory.
      FWIW, my choice would be something like {Frodo, Samwise, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gollum, Sauron, Galadriel, Faramir, ... two wildcards}. But how would you work all, or even most of them, into a coherent Christian allegory? (If anyone wants to write the essay and post it, I'll certainly read it.)

      Also, JRRT seems to be somewhat inconsistent on the topic himself, as some people quoted his "yes it is" statement, but others say he is also on record adamantly against any allegorical interpretation.

      Finally, what are we to make of his idea that an author can "unconsiously" [sic] produce an allegory? Though he adamantly denies that LotR is a WWII allegory, it seems to work better that way than as a Christian allegory, and the time and place of its writing would certainly be conducive to it as well. So can we conclude that he "unconsciously" wrote a WWII allegory and never recognized it?
      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  2. Strange by gowen · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't know how anyone can review the Heaney Beowulf without mentioning his Irishness (whose vernacular is used to capture the flavour of the original). For a less superficial review, try this one or this one

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  3. Arthurian works by MikeCamel · · Score: 4, Informative

    Other good background is Malory's "Arthur" (Le Morte D'Arthur?), which is pretty much readable by a modern audience, and is a good romp through most of the Arthurian myths that you know and love - lots of magic, knights, and the rest. Much of the original Arthurian legends can be traced to "Layamon's Brut", which was an early pseudo-history of Britain, and it not easy to read if you're not into Middle English, though there are some good translations of parts of it. Of course, once your Middle English and Anglo-Saxon are up to speed, you'll be able to read Elvish with no problems (it's what Tolkein based the language on).

  4. Re:Recycling of Story Lines by CaseStudy · · Score: 3, Informative

    What is worrying is that now business is trying, through the ever tightening web of copyrights, to take ownership of what deem to be demonstrated to be universal human myths.

    Typical uninformed Slashdot copyright-bashing. Here's why it's wrong:

    Businesses don't create copyright law. Sure, they lobby for influence, but law is created by legislators and interpreted by the courts. At least in the U.S., the Constitution provides important checks on what monopolies can be granted through copyright.

    The Constitution provides Congress the power to create copyrights for limited times only. Though life of the author plus 70 years is a long time, universal human myths are quite a bit older. (No, Star Wars is not a universal human myth, it just draws on them.)

    Copyright protects only expression, not ideas. The story of a demigod undertaking a quest is unprotectable. The character of Hercules as found in Greek myth is in the public doman. Artwork from the Disney animation is protected by copyright--but Disney can't sue Renaissance Pictures for "Hercules: the Legendary Journeys" (or vice versa), because they don't use each other's protected ideas.

  5. Quenya is heavily influenced by Finnish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Tolkien discovered Finnish and with the help of a Finnish grammar he began to translate the Kalevala (he had already read the English translation) but he never learned Finnish enough to work on more than part of the original. He said 'It was like discovering a wine-cellar filled with bottles of amazing wine of a kind and flavor never tasted before. It quite intoxicated me.' This must have influenced his undertaking to create a private language heavily influenced by the Finnish language. This was the language that would eventually emerge in his stories as 'Quenya' or High-Elven.

    1. Re:Quenya is heavily influenced by Finnish by freddled · · Score: 3, Funny

      Please. Tolkein did not 'discover Finnish'. Finland is a large country in Northern Europe with lots of inhabitants who have a prior claim.

    2. Re:Quenya is heavily influenced by Finnish by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's interesting. I once read that some scholars postulate that, in a lot of Norse folk tales and myths, whenever the central character encounters some sort of being that's essentially a "wizard" or "weird faery folk," they're probably talking about somebody from Finland. The Finns (or the Lapps at least) had that reputation even at the time, apparently.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
  6. literature, Tolkien vs. "xxx," Grendle by tcyun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Good literature is a great thing. A fairly obvious statement, really, but worth saying every once in a while.

    That said, I have had an ongoing discussion with my circle of friends. The quick summary is: How do the Tolkien books compare with Lewis' Narnia books and more recently, Rowling's Potter books. Now, before you jump and defend/attack, the question is in reference to the way the stories are constructed. I have learned a great deal talking this out with my friends. It would be interesting to see what you all have to think.

    That said, Beowulf is a very interesting book to add into the mix. Beowulf, being one of the older stories known to exist from Europe, has proven its worth by sheer existance today. I also think that it is interesting to note that several other pieces of literature have based directly from it. Grendle, by John Gardner, is a great retelling of the Beowulf story. A great read for those of you familiar with Beowulf.

    So, another question to ask in light of all of the views posted already, what literature has been created directly based on the LoTR books. (Or, do modern copyright laws just make this a moot point...)

    (Also, see "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead" by Tom Stoppard if you like re-tellings...)

  7. Monty Python and Iceland's Legal System by jonesvery · · Score: 3, Funny

    One of its notable features is that it had a sophisticated legal system but no executive government, which makes it a magnet for political theorists -- if you search the web for information on medieval Iceland, you'll find a running fight between the libertarians and anarchists over who can best claim it as an exemplum.

    Yes, indeed...it's entertaining to read swashbuckling epics that spend a great deal of time discussing property rights, the complications of joint ownership, legal machinations surrounding property...some selections from Njal's Saga:

    "There was a man called Mord Fiddle, who was the son of Sighvat the Red. Mord was a powerful chieftain, and lived at Voll in the Rangriver Plains. He was also a very experienced lawyer..."

    "Thorarin lived at Varmabrook, which he owned in common with Glum, who had spent many years trading abroad. Glum was tall and strong and very handsome. The third brother, Ragi, was a great warrior. The three brothers jointly owned Eng Isle and Laugarness, in the south."

    "At the Thingskalar Assembly in the autumn, Kilskegg made his claim to the land at Moeidarknoll; Gunnar named witnesses and offered to compensate the people of Thrihyrning with money or another piece of land lawfully assessed at the same value. Thorgeir then named witnesses and charged Gunnar with breaking their settlement.

    And you thought that Monty Python was making all that stuff up... :)

    --

    * * *
    It is a dada story -- it has no moral.

  8. Kalevala by Longhair · · Score: 3, Informative

    Good reading for those seeking the myths behind the Middle Earth is Kalevala which is the saga and tales of the Finnish people. Tolkien was greatly impressed and influenced by the Kalevala, specially Silmarillion has many similarities to Kalevala. Tolkien also studied the Finnish language and used it to create the Elf language.

  9. Re:Find it Free! by Hieronymus+Howard · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I found it interesting to compare the Internet Wiretap translation of Beowulf with Heaney's translation. Wiretap is quite a literal translation, whilst Heaney is more poetic. I'd certainly recommend reading Heaney, especially if you've never read Beowulf before. Tolkien also published an essay on Beowulf entitled "The Monsters and the Critics", which I have not read, but have heard is excellent and was the cause of an academic reappraisal of Beowulf.

    HH

  10. Before the posts get too out of hand by btellier · · Score: 3, Informative

    let us not forget that Tolkien hated allegory in all its forms. He has repeated stated that while inspiration comes in many forms, he never meant LoTR to parallel the bible, nuclear arms race, or any of the dozens of theories that people with degrees love to speculate on.

  11. He was a devout Catholic by epepke · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's a difference. Of course, Catholicism is a form of the religion called Christianity. However, when one says "a devout Christian," at least in the U.S. and increasingly in the U.K., it carries a connotation of a certain type of person, one who feels compelled to consider Halloween "of Satan" (even though it's one of the earliest Christian holidays), to state that when the Bible mentions "wine" it's really unfermented grape juice, and above all to make every creative work a footnote to the Bible.

    In contrast, Catholicism was truly catholic, because it engulfed and incorporated all of the myths of the cultures it touched. Tolkien saw no conflict at all between being a devout Catholic and being fascinated by the mythology of various places in Europe. He referred to the world in LOTR and The Silmarilion as "sub-creation" and didn't think it conflicted with his religion at all. He asserted more than once that Middle-Earth was the Mediterranean, only very long ago.

    Tolkien attempted to convert C.S. Lewis to Catholicism and was by all accounts really ticked off when it didn't work, and Lewis instead adopted something much more in line with the connotations with "devout Christian." Hence The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, which is the sort of blatant Christian allegory that such people like. Tolkien himself said he detested allegory, although he wrote a little allegory in his youth. He would certainly have considered the assertion that Gandalf was somehow "really" an angel to be absurd and simplistic, especially as the name, borrowing from a pastiche of Northern European languages, means "wizard-elf."

    Do many of Tolkien's ideas parallel stories that some call "Christian?" Of course they do, just as they parallel similar stories in just about every culture on the planet. What Tolkien wrote made use of what might be called "archtypes." These stories are basic stories that human beings tell because they are human beings. To say that Gollum was really Coyote is just as accurate and just as silly as to say that Gandalf was really an angel. The value of an archetypal story is in the telling, not the plot, and Tolkien told it very well.

    When modern apologists make these assertions, they're dealing with their own internal conflicts, not Tolkien's.

  12. The Matrix by RazzleFrog · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I remember when the Matrix came out there was a similar debate about the influences and the deeper meaning behind it. Some people associated Neo with Jesus; others noticed the Simulacra and Simulation book in the movie and applied that; still others applied the teachings of Jung and the collective unconscious.

    The point is that there are probably several things that influenced Tolkien both directly (or consciously) and indirectly (or unconsciously). This holds true for everything and anything ever written. Really one of the best places to look at this is religion. We are all fairly familiar with the similarities between Greek and Roman Gods (because the Roman's were greatly influence by the Ancient Greeks) but the correlations occur with many other distant religions. Virgin (or miraculous) births, sibling rivalry, great floods etc. appear in many different religions.

    In summary, we are all the product of thousands of years of collective ideas and experiences. While the names in Tolkien's works may be from Norse or Germanic mythology, the ideas are from all of World History.

  13. Welsh Sources in Translation by llywrch · · Score: 3, Informative

    > I have never found a good verse translation of the original Welsh tales (Mabinogion et al). that also inspired the Tolkien mythos,
    > so if anyone has a suggetion

    Could it be because the Mabinogion & related stories *weren't* written in verse but prose?

    Helpful information follows:

    I have two translations of the Mabinogion in my library: one by Gwyn Jones and Thomas Jones in the Everyman's Library series, & a more recent translation by Patrick K. Ford. Of the two, Ford's is done in contemporary American English, & I remember finding it slightly more readable. Both contain a translation of the related tale ``Culhwlch and Olwen", which contains the earlier Welsh description of Arthur before the late Medieval poets recast him as the ideal monarch.

    Speaking of Arthur, there are translations of Aneiryn's ``Gododdin", the earliest Welsh poem which mentions Arthur in the middle of describing an unsuccessful North Country battle against the Saissons, aka Anglo-Saxons. K.H. Jackson's translation is useful for the extensive notes.

    And if you want to get truly serious about Welsh traditions, hunt down a copy of Rachel Bromwich, _Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Welsh Triads_ (2nd, ed., University of Wales, 1978), ISBN 0-7083-0690-X. Bromwich's edition is a treasure trove of information, aswell as including an index of most of the personages of Welsh legendry.

    Geoff

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  14. Re:Philology by Doomdark · · Score: 3
    Tolkien was fascinated by the study of languages (in particular Old English) and indeed the tales of Middle Earth were built around the languages dreamed up by Tolkien.

    Yes... I think Tolkien also was one of anglo-saxon romanticists (or whatever proper term is... there was such a movement on early 20th century), hoping to get some of the already forgotten anglo-saxon words to be 'resurrected' (major reason for 'downfall of anglo-saxon language' was William the Conqueror et al conquering England, french becoming the "civilized language"... and as a result, tons of new words were imported from latin via french, often replacing 'native' words, sometimes just adding... in some cases there still exists 3 varieties of words, like 'regal', 'royal', 'kingly', from latin - french - anglo-saxon... and supposedly going from most formal/prestigious downwards).

    In addition, Tolkien was interested in quite a few other (european) languages. I think I read somewhere that finnish was actually a big influence in elvish (whatever the language was called...). Thus, it might be that yet another book that may have been influencing some of Tolkien's books would be 'Kalevala', which is based in finnish (fenno-ugrian, actually) folklores, and was compiled in late 19th century by a finnish scholar. There is an english translation available (which seems kind of decent, too, although translating mythical epic books is always difficult), I read it a year ago. Because of the vastness of Tolkien's production, it's not surprising that there are parallels (and of course even Kalevala draws heavily from bible, christian legends mixing with existing folklores in medieval times). Wonder if someone has already studied these similarities. Hmmh, got to check Google for that. :-)

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