Posted by
ryuzaki0
on from the but-the-megacorps-punch-back dept.
Krimsen writes: "It's nice to see we still have some stories like we used to hear all the time in the mid-late 90's of the little guy beating the mega-corporations to the punch."
We Had Mom & Pop ISPs Too...
by
puppetman
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
and where are they now... eaten up by the big guys. Of course, lots of those big guys are out of business, on their way out of business, or just scraping by.
Good for the little guy - might dream big, but starts with a small realistic plan, and doesn't lose billions if it doesn't work.
The problem with big companies is that they can't see small. Every market they want to enter, they do so by spending millions of dollars. They try to hang a picture on the wall with a railroad spike, and are amazed at the size of the hole they create.
do the division
by
call+-151
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
From the article (speaking about Metricom):
Its network cost $1 billion to build, but it had just 51,000 customers.
That's almost $20k of capital investment per user-
what a business plan that turned out to be!
For that much per user, I could arrange a pretty impressive setup for the 10 apartments on my floor-
$200k= $2000 in setup and 802.11b equipment plus
many many months of T1 service to share...
-- It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
Building infrastructure for AOL
by
el_doop
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
the little guy beating the mega-corporations to the punch is really nothing more than the little guy building a customer base for AOL/Earthlink/MSN to buy out.
It happened with dialup; I can't see how this will be any different. I'm getting flashbacks of my 2 mid/late 90s layoffs as a result of small ISPs "merging" with the mega-corporations.
Wireless access.
by
Night0wl
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
I'm glad to hear this as well.
When people say that wireless is a bust I look at them a bit funny and point at the Atenna on my roof.
It's quite a spectacular antenna sence my ISP up-graded it to a highly directional antenna, I was having connection problems which turned out to be software, so now I've got this wicked looking dish.
The only downside to the wireless in my area (Omak, Washington) is it isn't really a mobile solution. And I don't feal left out either, I would perhaps if I was in a larger town, Seattle for example.
There is no point at citysearch'ing for Omak, there's nothing to do any way. Bowling, WalMart? And one theater which often times is beat by the rental company for new movies sad isn't it?
Our wireless is provided by the local radiostation. It's a small 4-5 man operation. Rather pitiful. But I live.:)
-- Computational Madness in a round package.
Beating mega corporations to the punch?
by
vanguard
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
I don't know if this guy really beat Paul Allen to the punch. He just runs a small business with low overhead. Good for him.
However, let's not pretend he and his 70 customers are the reason these larger companies went bankrupt. They went under because their customer base was too small to support their cost structure.
They'll be back in any market where wireless is the best option for broadband. Broadband really will be everywhere at some point. People really do want it and eventually they'll pay for it.
-- That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
The Dynamics of Starting an ISP
by
Renraku
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
Starting an ISP is almost like trying to start a town. You can't just say, "This is an ISP" and people magically start to dial in or connect to your service. First, you have to have something that can support the connections. The hardware to support the data transfer, and the users. That's where your routers, servers, landlines/WAP's come in. Second, you actually have to have a connection to the Internet yourself. This, along with IP ranges, would come from something like UUnet. If all goes well, you'll have a nice background for an ISP set up. For the most part, setting up an ISP requires money. And lots of it. Pay a bit of attention to being efficient, and you'll save a lot. Now that you have your ISP, what next? You'll need a team to take care of charging people (Billing), a tech support group, an advertising group, an IT group, a legal department, and last but not least, facilities and logistics to support everything. Now we can see why the 'little guy' has more of a chance of launching himself to the moon than trying to start an ISP that is the least bit competitive. If anyone wants to start one, best of luck!
-- Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Re:The Dynamics of Starting an ISP
by
Lumpy
·
· Score: 3, Informative
you are missing a HUGE part of it. as a one owner of an ISP I'll tell you a bit of the problems.
your backbone. a T-1 is 700.00-1500.00 a month and a T-3 is way too damned expensive. Those prices is without internet connectivity, that's just the wire going from point A to point B. The internet access ranges from 1/2 to the same as the line's cost per month. Now you need dial in lines. If you go woth a maximum of 28.8 as a dial in speed, you can get some really nice Boca modem racks for cheap... but at 28.8 you'll get no customers. so you need 56K modem racks, Oh and a T-1 for every modem rack of 24 incoming lines. you HAVE to buy 24 phonelines at a time as that is how a T-1 is sold. This T-1 is more expensive than the above T-1, as you get charged per call on it.. incoming or outgoing. incoming is cheap, 0.01 per call but it does add up.
wireless is different. you need to set up 1-2 towers, and if you have a 2nd tower you need a t-1 or t-3 to it also. (selling broadband? t-3)
t1 is ONLY for selling 28-56K speeds. if you are trying to offer broadband a t-3 is the minimum you can buy, and you should have 2.
sorry, mom-pop types of these businesses are not normal anymore... most mom-s and pop-s dont have 1-2 mill to drop into equipment and 3 months operating capitol just to server a few dozen customers.
-- Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Of course, Smaller ISP = Car Salesmen
by
BrookHarty
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Its bread and butter time for the smaller ISPs, they almost live month to month when they first start out they cant have a burn rate.
Starting at a small BBS turned ISP (cet.com), I seen how the owner would sell a full T1 and split it a dozen ways, scam customers on software packages, replace broken hardware that wasnt broken. I moved onto another ISP, and saw how the salesmen reminded me of car salesmen, "Let me talk to the manager..."
People dont see whats going on behind the scenes, how the young kids are working thier ass off to keep the servers up cause they cant hire professional admins. The systems are always having outages and they blame the larger telcos as a "network problem..."
That was my biggest problem, I couldnt stand being dishonest to a customer, and you cant be a good salesmen without bending the truth, spreading on the bullshit like butter. Even with a good product, its thier job to sell or they dont eat.
Smaller ISP's have to cut costs too, I remember when all the ISPs in Spokane moved into the tel-west building so they could cut out the local exchange. Save 200 bux on federal taxes and transport fees. A T1 that costs 900 bux wholesale could be bought for 500, since all they had to do was run some cable down the hallway (overhead). Sell the T1 (frac) to 10 people paying you 300 bux, and they pay thier own costs, you could out bid. And then charge them for any hourly work needed. (You need help configuring your router? 10 hours billed) Another reason ISPs needed to move into the telco buildings was the digital lines, to have the 56K v90 modems, the ISP has to have digital lines. I remember how everyone and thier brother was buying livingston port masters and running radius. Every ISP was the same, except for the modems on the end of the portmasters.
I think most slashdotters can confirm the shady side of the ISPs. How some run out of computer stores in the back, or BBS's that turned ISP. H
Hell, one of the most popular ISPs Eskimo here in seattle runs out of his living room. When I moved over here to this side of washington state, I went over and met the guy. Typical homegrown ISP, but this guy has shitloads of customers.
Been there done that, now I work for a major wireless telco, millions of customers, and I never have to be shady. Drawbacks? Less ownership in the product. I get paid, but I dont make the choices. Management and Marketing does. Sometimes I just shake my head and say "Umm, if our stockholders only knew....)
Someday Im going to start another business, and try to keep the "mom and pop" attitude. Actually sell what the customer wants, and give it to them. Only thing stands in my way, People are cheap. (-;
-
There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)
I don't think CNET get it...
by
rmckeethen
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
It not really fair to compare wireless service from companies like Odessa Office Supply with Metricom's Ricochet. The two markets they serve are vastly different.
Odessa, as I understand it, is mainly in the business of being a high-bandwidth ISP to their local customers, most of which are either too far out for DSL or cable modems or not in an area that is easily served by other types of carriers. As such, they do provide a pretty valuable service to the communities they serve, communities that would not have anything better then dial-up service otherwise. It's really pretty much intended to do only point-to-point service, they're not really intending that you will be running around the neighborhood with the equipment. They do support some mobile applications but nothing like what Ricochet did. From what I hear most of the wireless ISPs like Odessa use Breezecom equipment and 802.11 stuff for their networks, again a lot less expensive then the proprietary Ricochet stuff. And Odessa serves a rural market, not a metropolitan one.
Metricom, on the other hand, was in the business of providing a true mobile wireless service within metropolitan areas. Unfortunately, this is a lot harder to do then point-to-point service. To ensure that everyone will have service wherever they happen to be within the area you have to build the network to provide service even to areas that may not have any customers in them. That means that a fair fraction of the network, at any given time, isn't generating any revenue at all, even though it's still got to be operational. Of course, until you have good coverage, customers aren't interested in paying for your service, so it's something of the old chicken or egg situation. No in-place network, no customers. But the costs to build that kind of network can be staggering. Is it really any wonder that Merticom failed?
Looking at it this way, it's easy to see why companies like Odessa survive while Metricom went under. The markets are simply different and it's unfortunate that CNET appears to have missed this point. Oh well.
If anyone is interested, you can find more information on Odessa at http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/
Additionally, Marlon's a frequent contributor on the ISP wireless e-mail list. See http://isp-lists.isp-planet.com/subscribe/
Small Isp advantage
by
jchawk
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
I have a couple friends that just launched a small ISP about 9 months ago and they are finding success in the market because of the poor service provided by the other large ISP's.
They also have the advantage of being able to roll out small wireless mesh networks in areas that are overlooked by the MegaISPs.
These guys will probably never become multi-millionaires, but they will probably make a really nice living. Plus they work for themselves and make their own hours. As long as you keep the network running smoothly there is no way for a customer to tell that you are out on the golf course or on the couch at home, as opposed to a server room.
Plus look at it this way, eventually when the economy turns around (6 months, 1 year, 5 years, whenever), they stand to make a really nice chunk of change if they are bought out.
The little guy is only going to get bigger.
by
cosmosis
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Ok, I'm going to break from the pack and say that we have not seen the end of the little guy. And by little, I mean every one of us - you, me, your nextdoor neighbor. The dot-com failure wasn't becuase of the technology, it was stupidity plain and simple. Their really is a new economy and it is going to change everything, depsite EVERYTHING you keep hearing to the contrary after the dot-com crash. The only reasons it crashed in the first place, is becuase what has always been obvious to me since the beginning of all this (pre-1994) is that the internet revolution isn't about the big guys - that is the who fricking point! It is about the little guy.
Think 802.11a, b, g, z? Everyone will have one on their house talking to everyone else on their houses. A wireless P2P 'gnutella', 'freenet' Neighboorhood LAN (NAN).
While the rest of the idiots continue to get more depressed at the the rediculous dot-com crash, I'm celebrating the birth of individuality that is emerging quietly between the cracks. Ha ha ha ha haaa!
Re:The little guy is only going to get bigger.
by
Elwood+P+Dowd
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
Absolutely. I'm a senior CS undergraduate. When I was a freshman, we were in the thick of the moronic dot com business models. "We'll revolutionize online toilet paper delivery!"
All of the ideas coming out of my classmates were equally moronic. Or moreso. (even my older classmates:) Now that no one is *looking* for businesses to start, and no one is hiring, they're just finding ways to make money. And it's working. They're not incorporating, they're not talking about venture capital, and they're thinking smaller.
People realized that they're not going to be millionaires, and they're making money. The internet can still make you money. Small businesses rule.
here's a locator-thingy for wireless isps:
http://www.bbwexchange.com/wisps/
Just for the information (and slightly off-topic)
by
Cpyder
·
· Score: 3, Informative
This is the same guy of the utterly cool "Homebrew Dsl" (covered in this Slashdot story)
Back then, he said:
"So, having looked into wireless... My POP is at a very low point of town and it is right beside a rock bluff. Wireless would also cover the downtown corridor very nicely but it would also be limited in distance and would be much more expensive to get up and running. Especially when you consider that I would probably have to put in a point-to-point system to feed a multipoint-to-point system on top of one of the local grain elevators (If the grain company would let me)."
Looks like he finally convinced them...
Wireless is happening in the UK too.
by
Colin+Smith
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Tele2 (http://www.tele2.co.uk/) springs to mind, however, the bigger boys are also looking at it due to the last mile problems. It makes a lot of sense.
802.11b can't be used to provide a commercial ISP in the UK so Tele2 are using something up in the 4GHz range.
802.11b is however being used by individuals to connect together volunteer run wireless area networks, the biggest I'm aware of being Consume (http://consume.net/).
Slashdot Mirror
and where are they now... eaten up by the big guys. Of course, lots of those big guys are out of business, on their way out of business, or just scraping by.
Good for the little guy - might dream big, but starts with a small realistic plan, and doesn't lose billions if it doesn't work.
The problem with big companies is that they can't see small. Every market they want to enter, they do so by spending millions of dollars. They try to hang a picture on the wall with a railroad spike, and are amazed at the size of the hole they create.
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
the little guy beating the mega-corporations to the punch is really nothing more than the little guy building a customer base for AOL/Earthlink/MSN to buy out.
It happened with dialup; I can't see how this will be any different. I'm getting flashbacks of my 2 mid/late 90s layoffs as a result of small ISPs "merging" with the mega-corporations.
I'm glad to hear this as well.
:)
When people say that wireless is a bust I look at them a bit funny and point at the Atenna on my roof.
It's quite a spectacular antenna sence my ISP up-graded it to a highly directional antenna, I was having connection problems which turned out to be software, so now I've got this wicked looking dish.
The only downside to the wireless in my area (Omak, Washington) is it isn't really a mobile solution. And I don't feal left out either, I would perhaps if I was in a larger town, Seattle for example.
There is no point at citysearch'ing for Omak, there's nothing to do any way. Bowling, WalMart? And one theater which often times is beat by the rental company for new movies sad isn't it?
Our wireless is provided by the local radiostation. It's a small 4-5 man operation. Rather pitiful. But I live.
Computational Madness in a round package.
I don't know if this guy really beat Paul Allen to the punch. He just runs a small business with low overhead. Good for him.
However, let's not pretend he and his 70 customers are the reason these larger companies went bankrupt. They went under because their customer base was too small to support their cost structure.
They'll be back in any market where wireless is the best option for broadband. Broadband really will be everywhere at some point. People really do want it and eventually they'll pay for it.
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
Starting an ISP is almost like trying to start a town. You can't just say, "This is an ISP" and people magically start to dial in or connect to your service. First, you have to have something that can support the connections. The hardware to support the data transfer, and the users. That's where your routers, servers, landlines/WAP's come in. Second, you actually have to have a connection to the Internet yourself. This, along with IP ranges, would come from something like UUnet. If all goes well, you'll have a nice background for an ISP set up. For the most part, setting up an ISP requires money. And lots of it. Pay a bit of attention to being efficient, and you'll save a lot. Now that you have your ISP, what next? You'll need a team to take care of charging people (Billing), a tech support group, an advertising group, an IT group, a legal department, and last but not least, facilities and logistics to support everything. Now we can see why the 'little guy' has more of a chance of launching himself to the moon than trying to start an ISP that is the least bit competitive. If anyone wants to start one, best of luck!
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Its bread and butter time for the smaller ISPs, they almost live month to month when they first start out they cant have a burn rate.
Starting at a small BBS turned ISP (cet.com), I seen how the owner would sell a full T1 and split it a dozen ways, scam customers on software packages, replace broken hardware that wasnt broken. I moved onto another ISP, and saw how the salesmen reminded me of car salesmen, "Let me talk to the manager..."
People dont see whats going on behind the scenes, how the young kids are working thier ass off to keep the servers up cause they cant hire professional admins. The systems are always having outages and they blame the larger telcos as a "network problem..."
That was my biggest problem, I couldnt stand being dishonest to a customer, and you cant be a good salesmen without bending the truth, spreading on the bullshit like butter. Even with a good product, its thier job to sell or they dont eat.
Smaller ISP's have to cut costs too, I remember when all the ISPs in Spokane moved into the tel-west building so they could cut out the local exchange. Save 200 bux on federal taxes and transport fees. A T1 that costs 900 bux wholesale could be bought for 500, since all they had to do was run some cable down the hallway (overhead). Sell the T1 (frac) to 10 people paying you 300 bux, and they pay thier own costs, you could out bid. And then charge them for any hourly work needed. (You need help configuring your router? 10 hours billed) Another reason ISPs needed to move into the telco buildings was the digital lines, to have the 56K v90 modems, the ISP has to have digital lines. I remember how everyone and thier brother was buying livingston port masters and running radius. Every ISP was the same, except for the modems on the end of the portmasters.
I think most slashdotters can confirm the shady side of the ISPs. How some run out of computer stores in the back, or BBS's that turned ISP. H
Hell, one of the most popular ISPs Eskimo here in seattle runs out of his living room. When I moved over here to this side of washington state, I went over and met the guy. Typical homegrown ISP, but this guy has shitloads of customers.
Been there done that, now I work for a major wireless telco, millions of customers, and I never have to be shady. Drawbacks? Less ownership in the product. I get paid, but I dont make the choices. Management and Marketing does. Sometimes I just shake my head and say "Umm, if our stockholders only knew....)
Someday Im going to start another business, and try to keep the "mom and pop" attitude. Actually sell what the customer wants, and give it to them. Only thing stands in my way, People are cheap. (-;
-
There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)
It not really fair to compare wireless service from companies like Odessa Office Supply with Metricom's Ricochet. The two markets they serve are vastly different.
Odessa, as I understand it, is mainly in the business of being a high-bandwidth ISP to their local customers, most of which are either too far out for DSL or cable modems or not in an area that is easily served by other types of carriers. As such, they do provide a pretty valuable service to the communities they serve, communities that would not have anything better then dial-up service otherwise. It's really pretty much intended to do only point-to-point service, they're not really intending that you will be running around the neighborhood with the equipment. They do support some mobile applications but nothing like what Ricochet did. From what I hear most of the wireless ISPs like Odessa use Breezecom equipment and 802.11 stuff for their networks, again a lot less expensive then the proprietary Ricochet stuff. And Odessa serves a rural market, not a metropolitan one.
Metricom, on the other hand, was in the business of providing a true mobile wireless service within metropolitan areas. Unfortunately, this is a lot harder to do then point-to-point service. To ensure that everyone will have service wherever they happen to be within the area you have to build the network to provide service even to areas that may not have any customers in them. That means that a fair fraction of the network, at any given time, isn't generating any revenue at all, even though it's still got to be operational. Of course, until you have good coverage, customers aren't interested in paying for your service, so it's something of the old chicken or egg situation. No in-place network, no customers. But the costs to build that kind of network can be staggering. Is it really any wonder that Merticom failed?
Looking at it this way, it's easy to see why companies like Odessa survive while Metricom went under. The markets are simply different and it's unfortunate that CNET appears to have missed this point. Oh well.
If anyone is interested, you can find more information on Odessa at http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/
Additionally, Marlon's a frequent contributor on the ISP wireless e-mail list. See http://isp-lists.isp-planet.com/subscribe/
I have a couple friends that just launched a small ISP about 9 months ago and they are finding success in the market because of the poor service provided by the other large ISP's.
They also have the advantage of being able to roll out small wireless mesh networks in areas that are overlooked by the MegaISPs.
These guys will probably never become multi-millionaires, but they will probably make a really nice living. Plus they work for themselves and make their own hours. As long as you keep the network running smoothly there is no way for a customer to tell that you are out on the golf course or on the couch at home, as opposed to a server room.
Plus look at it this way, eventually when the economy turns around (6 months, 1 year, 5 years, whenever), they stand to make a really nice chunk of change if they are bought out.
Ok, I'm going to break from the pack and say that we have not seen the end of the little guy. And by little, I mean every one of us - you, me, your nextdoor neighbor. The dot-com failure wasn't becuase of the technology, it was stupidity plain and simple. Their really is a new economy and it is going to change everything, depsite EVERYTHING you keep hearing to the contrary after the dot-com crash. The only reasons it crashed in the first place, is becuase what has always been obvious to me since the beginning of all this (pre-1994) is that the internet revolution isn't about the big guys - that is the who fricking point! It is about the little guy.
Think 802.11a, b, g, z? Everyone will have one on their house talking to everyone else on their houses. A wireless P2P 'gnutella', 'freenet' Neighboorhood LAN (NAN).
While the rest of the idiots continue to get more depressed at the the rediculous dot-com crash, I'm celebrating the birth of individuality that is emerging quietly between the cracks. Ha ha ha ha haaa!
www.enthea.org
here's a locator-thingy for wireless isps:
http://www.bbwexchange.com/wisps/
This is the same guy of the utterly cool "Homebrew Dsl" (covered in this Slashdot story)
Back then, he said:
"So, having looked into wireless... My POP is at a very low point of town and it is right beside a rock bluff. Wireless would also cover the downtown corridor very nicely but it would also be limited in distance and would be much more expensive to get up and running. Especially when you consider that I would probably have to put in a point-to-point system to feed a multipoint-to-point system on top of one of the local grain elevators (If the grain company would let me)."
Looks like he finally convinced them...
Tele2 (http://www.tele2.co.uk/) springs to mind, however, the bigger boys are also looking at it due to the last mile problems. It makes a lot of sense.
802.11b can't be used to provide a commercial ISP in the UK so Tele2 are using something up in the 4GHz range.
802.11b is however being used by individuals to connect together volunteer run wireless area networks, the biggest I'm aware of being Consume (http://consume.net/).
Deleted