FreeBSD Foundation Announces Java License for Free

nt2UNIX writes: "There is an article on Daily Daemon News that the FreeBSD Foundation has announced the inclusion of a FreeBSD native SUN Java SDK and RunTime Environment for the January 2002 release of FreeBSD 4.5 The whole announcement can be found here."

Comments

Too bad the licensing blew it

[freebsd guy]

As a former FreeBSD committer, I worked extensively with the team that produced the JRE/JDK project. Since programming languages can only be protected by patents (not copyrights), our original intention was to craft a clean-room version of Java that we could release under the BSD license, just like everything else in our distribution. Unfortunately, manpower was tight, and we were not able to do it all on our own. Hence, we discussed the matter with Sun and (IMHO) compromised our principles (unrestricted distribution in source and binary forms) in order to get the project done.

Our experience should serve as an important lesson to open source developers who try to tackle too large a project by themselves: do not sell your soul to Corporate America. Sure, we have a native JRE/JDK, but the only advantage is that it is native - not Free in any stretch of the imagination. (Not even restricted-Free, e.g. GPL).

All that aside, I have been testing several snapshots of the Java tools and they are very responsive and stable. More so, I am afraid, than Blackdown - although the ultimate test will be to see how it compares with the JRE running on a Solaris/SPARC machine.

freebsd guy

Re:Too bad the licensing blew it

[Metrol]

Hence, we discussed the matter with Sun and (IMHO) compromised our principles (unrestricted distribution in source and binary forms) in order to get the project done.

Certainly a fully open and free version of Java would have been preferrable and all. Even still, is this really that much different then having the Netscape 4.x browser included? For years this has gone along with both Linux and FreeBSD to provide what the community couldn't, a functioning browser.

Just because Netscape provided a browser didn't mean that work wasn't done to produce a more open product. The folks over at KDE stepped up to the plate and knocked one outta the park with Konqueror. And of course we now have Mozilla going pretty nicely. Two great apps displacing the closed source version that preceded it.

All I'm getting at here is that Sun need not displace any and all efforts that might look to go into a JVM for FreeBSD. Maybe it fills the role needed for a couple of years until interest in doing a fresh version as you described gets enough going to actually make it happen.

This is nice

[metlin]

Since Microsoft is slowly trying to push third party development applications away from it's platform (apparently to make way for .NET), this is a good sign.

I'm not a big fan of Java, but if there are enough number of viable platforms for development, I'm sure attention could be shifted from the Win* platform to other unices.

FreeBSD is a very stable and robust platform, but to what extent has it managed to penetrate the existing MS market? Apparently Linux seems to be doing this, and the reason is not anything else, except support for existing applications.

I'd like to see where this takes the FreeBSD marketshare.

Java license for Free (as in ???)

[GGardner]

Well, it isn't free as in speech, cause we don't get source code, which means it is x86 only (amoung other issues).

And the FreeBSD team had to pay $3k in legal fees to lawyers to wrangle licensing terms, so it is hardly free as in beer.

Hm... don't know.

[burtonator]

I am a big fan of Java. I think my accomplishments speak for themselves. I have done a lot of work under Jakarta and founded two of its core projects.

That said. I am very upset at what SUN has done to systematically *destroy* Java's potential.

In 1995 everything was great, Java was going to change the world.

Then they decided to play games, they pulled out of the standards committees and now there will be no ECMA or IEEE standard for Java.

Not only that but they have shown that they have NO interest in EVER Open Sourcing Java.

Every new Java specification is dumped into the JVM as proprietary code.

I mean I can understand that Open Sourcing a large proprietary product like Java can be hard. Good examples are the Mozilla and Tomcat projects. Proptietary products can end up using libraries that you don't have the license too. Not only that but you have to get sign off from all the morons that think proprietary is the only way to go.

But SUN *continues* to dump code into the proprietary JVM making it bigger and more bloated than ever before.

In case Some of you don't know, SUNs MO for extending the VM is to work on a dedicated sub-project outside of the VM and then getting it targeted for the next revision.

So for example JSSE (Java Secure Socket Extension). This is a external library that can just be plugged into any VM. Instead of releasing this as an external project that has different licensing they just dump it into JDK 1.4 with the same old stupid non-OSS license.

THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT SUN!

I think it is great that FreeBSD can now distribute the JDK.

It just seems too little too late for me.

Java has real competition now. They are not the ONLY game on the block.

Python and C# are going to give you a REAL run for your money SUN.

So, they way I see it, you have two options:

1. Loose. C# is an IEEE standard as well as the CLR. When mono is successful no one is going to want to use your proprietary JVM anymore.

2. *WIN* Open Source license the JVM. Yes... I know it is scarry but this is you ONLY choice. Java still has a lot of great momentum. (*cough* Jakarta *cough*)

Clearly you aren't interested in the standards process, this is fine. I can't blame you. Standards are not a panacea! Nice to have but not really a requirement.

So just BSD license it and be over with it. MS isn't going to steal it! They aren't interested in Java anymore.

What? Aren't going to Open Source Java?

Fine. I am just going to use C#.

Sorry if this seemed like a troll. I am just sick of these stupid games :(

I just want to change the world. Is that so bad :)

Re:Hm... don't know.

[markj02]

C# is an IEEE standard as well as the CLR. When mono is successful no one is going to want to use your proprietary JVM anymore.

Well, first of all, AFAIK, C# is an ECMA standard, not IEEE. Now, I don't get your complaint. You say that there is a problem with Sun "dumping proprietary libraries" into the Java spec. But the Java language, JVM, and core libraries are as-well specified as C#/CLR, and they are stable. Beyond the core ECMA specs, Microsoft is completely proprietary, with NO free implementation at all and NO decent specs. And there is no guarantee that Microsoft will even stick to their spec--they will likely extend the hell out of what they submitted as a standard. Sun at least writes pretty good specs for what goes into new releases of the Java platform and they give you a free implementation.

When mono is successful no one is going to want to use your proprietary JVM anymore.

Why would anybody care about Mono? It's going to use non-standard APIs on a little-used platform.

2. *WIN* Open Source license the JVM. Yes... I know it is scarry but this is you ONLY choice. Java still has a lot of great momentum. (*cough* Jakarta *cough*)

That makes no sense either. Why do you care about open sourcing Sun's JDK? Implementing C#/CLR as part of Mono is at least as hard as implementing Java/JVM. Yet, you seem convinced that Mono will be successful. Well, if the Mono people can hack up C#/CLR, why does it matter whether Sun open sources Java/JVM? Why can't someone else just implement a high-performance Java/JVM? And what has Microsoft done for the open source community later? Ever?

Sun makes available a great implementation under usable license terms. If you want something open source, rather than whining and stomping your foot that they aren't giving you more, go implement your own. Sun has already given you more than Microsoft likely ever will.

And, in fact, the equivalent of C#/CLR/CLI already exists for Java in open source form in the form of several open source Java compilers, the Intel ORP, and open source libraries. If that functionality is what you or the Mono project are after, you could have had that years ago.