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Fast Track to a CS Degree?
kyrex asks: "it's been 5
years since I've been working in the tech industry and I've make
great progress. My salary has grown by an annual rate of about 50%
and I'm currently working as a consultant in a leading consulting
firm. But not having received any formal education in Computer
Science, and therefore having no degree will be a problem for
further progress. I've considered many options but they all take
time: at least 3 years. I've been programming since I was 12
(I'm currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS books. I think that I
can easily complete a CS degree in 1 year. I want to know if there
are universities/institutions out there that offers computer
professionals like me a fast track to a CS degree that will be
recognised as such by other universities (so that I can continue
with a MSc afterwards)"
There is definetly more to a CS degree than simply being able to program. Other courses in the arts, sciences and languages are usually required. The point of a CS degree is not to produce programmers; it is produce well rounded students who can apply their knowledge to more fields than just computer programming. If you want a quick and easy degree just go to some kind of trade school.
That's why a *good* CS department teaches theory rather than practice.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
For CS in particular, any university worth the effort of attending will probably require you to complete the first-year courses in all other sciences - physics, chemistry, biology. Plus first year courses in mathematics. Plus the humanities - literature, humanities, etc. You aren't expected to become an expert in any of these fields, but you should learn enough to be able to recognize when someone is trying to sell you a pack of lies in an election, in a courtroom (as a juror), or as the next-of-kin when a loved one is seriously ill. That's the stuff that ultimately matters, not just knowing how to write LALR(a) grammars.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
... did you know that getting a CS degree has very little to do with PROGRAMMING?
;-). Lots of calculus, and the hideous "discrete structures" courses. ::shudder::
I am in the same boat as you, and when I attended [a state school in Florida well known for computer science], I was surprised that the focus is entirely on the Science of Computing. Sure, some classes require you to know how to program in a certain language, but that is not the focus. The focus is on MATH. At least in the first years (that's as far as I got
In short, I don't see how a human could possibly get a CS degree in one year.
"And like that
I can understand the desire to have a degree, there are institutions that really want you to have that piece of paper that says you're in debt to a student loan processing center. I personally am in a similar situation with only a two year degree (electronics) and 7 years of IT experience. Here's my question though? Why do you want a CS Degree? Really, most employers are looking for *A* degree, it doesn't usually have to be a CS degree perse, especially with your experience.
If you're looking to advance your current career I'd say an MIS Degree (Management of Information Systems) would look better on your resume than a CS Degree.
It's been my experience that CS programs teach people to be programmers. How many CIO's and IT Directors are there that have come from the programming pool? Less than 1/2? Yes, programming is one road into an IT Career, but it certainly isn't the only one, or even the road that is the quickest.
All that said... a Degree isn't like an MCSE, you have to put in some time to get that piece of paper, but it'll be worth the time. Take the three years and learn something that will stick with you, rather than the current flavor of the day programming language.
What if it is just turtles all the way down?
It's not the paper; it's the wealth of information you get on your way to earning the paper.
I own my own consulting business, and it is true that my day-to-day contracting has a lot to do with the languages I learned after I left academia. BUT:
The problems I have to solve are many and varied, and often I find myself applying knowledge from my CS classes 15 years ago: "hmm... didn't we study a quadtree-like data structure which would be good for that problem?" "isn't that just a binary matrix multiplication?" And so on.
Academic CS is to practical CS what physics is to architecture: you need the theory to make a well-built product, and you need the product to make the theory meaningful.
True, you don't need the piece of paper to get the theory. But the piece of paper usually proves that you've been exposed to it, and even an average student will absorb things by osmosis.
I'm a bloodsucking fiend! Look at my outfit!
And of course, as you already know, in this field a degree is nice, but it's hardly essential. An impressive resume is much more important than a degree...
If you want to move beyond a programming position, and into some sort of management position, having a degree becomes much more important- largely because of the perception by venture capitalists and other suits that you need a degree to manage.
Part of this perception is based on stodgy "conventional wisdom", and part of it is based on the reality that people with basic and advanced degrees can sometimes feel a little resentful when having to report to someone with no degree at all. I'm all in favor of a full meritocracy myself, but I'm just saying how it is for better or worse.
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
I think that's a little arrogant to think that companies shouldn't consider a college degree when making hiring decisions.
If you've ever interviewed anyone for a job (or talked to anyone ever for any reason), you should know that people fudge all kinds of things on resumes to make themselves look better. A college degree is something that represents a substantial sustained work effort.
The attitude that you are too smart for college is not too far off from the attitude that you are too smart to work with non-technical people. It's a kind of superiority complex that I see from time to time in geeks (possibly as a result of a painful high school experience?). I'd just like to point out that if you think you are better than someone because they used to think they were better than you, then what sets you apart from them?
Welcome to the REAL world. Most companies can't afford
to give you 50% raises every year. 15% is a GREAT
raise! Look at other fields like teaching where they
go 6 years before they see a 6% raise!
The only nominal way you will see beyond a "percentage"
raise is by jumping ship. If you like your job and
like the people you work with -- think about that prospect long
and hard right now. Jobs are NOT secure right now ANYWHERE in
the technical trades - so if you feel secure, that in itself
has some value right now.
Have you compiled your kernel today??
This is absolutely correct. Your BS or Bachelor of Science indicates that you have completed a certain set of requirements relatively common across all types of degrees that indicate they are of this type. For me, this included a few Chemistry classes, a few Physics classes, a good many Mathematics classes, various humanities and social science classes (various psychology classes, a literature class on Sci-Fi, and quite a few foreign language courses in my case) as well as classes in other disciplines such as Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering (logic gates, anyone?) to name but a few.
As was mentioned above, you may be a crack programmer, but that's not all that's required for a degree, which is why you need a degree to continue to progress on your career ladder. The tasks that most probably await you will require certain degrees of critical thinking that are enhanced with the variety of non-CS classes that are required for the BS degree.
Another thought: do you have any degree? I assume you do not, but if you *did* many CS Masters programs (for example that at Chicago's DePaul University) will allow you to either take or test through a variety of core classes that essentially determine if you have what it takes for the Masters courses, if so - you're home free and on your way to your Masters. If not, you simply take the classes you need (shouldn't take more than a couple semesters) and then you're on your way. Again, I believe this only works if you have an undergraduate degree of some sort already.
I think you are wrong, not in your conclusion but in your premises.
Academic CS departments do not need to keep up with the latest iteration of C++ or Java and should not even try. Their job is to impart the fundamental knowledge of algorithms and systems that allow graduates to adapt to any particular application.
Self-taught gurus often have knowledge that is a mile wide but an inch deep, or they may be highly specialized in one particular field and know nothing whatsoever of anything else.
CS graduates avoid these two extremes, and can pick up new languages and concepts faster because of their grounding in basic science.
As an analogy close to my experience, it would be theoretically possible for a non-physician to become so skilled at a certain narrow field (for example reading mammograms) that most of the time the results would be as good as a board-certified doctor. However, every once in a while a really tough case comes along that requires knowledge of basic human medical science to interpret and integrate correctly. This is why you wouldn't want anyone but a doctor reading your wife's mammograms.
That's why we have the MD and by the same token, that's why we have CS degrees. However, the consequences of a mistake are rarely so dire as in medicine, and so the dilettantes and autodidacts of the CS world are free to flit from company to company, leaving half-baked useless projects in their wake wherever they go.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
You presume that because you have are good at computer programming, you can easily finish a CS degree in one year - in essence, you propose that you know pretty much all that a CS major knows. But what is taught in a CS degree is FAR DIFFERENT than what you know having programmed for however many years. This also is precisely the reason why your advancement potential MAY be limited because you DON'T have a CS degree - the business world recognizes the difference.
Its unfortunate that so many people value pieces of paper with writing on them.
It's unfortunate that so many people think that college is just about getting a piece of paper.
Not so.
:-).
I've been developing software for 18 years. I've designed a few motherboards (Motorola '340, ColdFire and PPC) and many other, "specialized" embedded cards -- a few are still on the market. I've been managing people (including managing managers) for the last seven years.
I have a vocational Drafting School certificate (got it 20 years ago), a pseudo-AS "degree" from a vocational Electronics School (they used ALL the Grantham books -- anyone know what I'm referring to? You're smiling right now as the pain returns to your forehead). CLEPed (or "challenged") Pascal, Assembly and C/C++ at a community college (lots of on-the-job experience helped me get a 4.0 on each exam
But absolutely NO degree. Nor will I ever get one, TVM.
If college teaches you anything useful, it's how to smash through a book and get *something* out of it. If you can learn this on your own, you're done! You can learn better ways to *design* software, architect hardware, program large-scale PLDs and DSPs, budget for your department and effectively manage employees (disputes and all).
My current team of developers is the best I've ever had the privilege to work with. Some have degrees; most don't. I have yet to tell the difference, and don't really give it much thought.
Yes, some companies bar non-degreed candidates. I think they shoot themselves and their hiring managers in the foot. They are also the very-rare exception.
Not having a degree has *never* kept me from getting the job I want. I seriously doubt it ever will. (I've been told, "Our policy is that we require a degree, but...")
Perhaps resting on degree-laurels has kept me from hiring some candidates, though. If you know your stuff, it shows; If you don't, you can't hide behind a degree.
>social skills. It was a problem that the
>university I attended (LaSalle University)
>offered NO challenge to me on any level, in any
>course.
Quite bluntly, if you couldn't find a challenge at a Christian Brothers' school, you either weren't looking very hard, or got *very* bad advice.
What faculty did you talk to about finding more challenging material? What did you do to go deeper into the material? What projects did you involve yourself in outside of class? Who did you talk to about taking upper division courses early.
The Christian Brothers are second only to the Jesuits as educators. It's *tough* to not get challenged around them . . .
hawk
>I've been programming since I was 12 (I'm
>currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS
>books. I think that I can easily complete a CS
>degree in 1 year.
"I've been using microwave ovens since I was 12 and have read hundreds of books on using microwave ovens. I think I can easily complete a degree in high-energy physics in one year."
Okay, thats pushing the analogy a little far, but you get the point. Programming is a trade skill, period. Computer science is NOT about programming. I'm sorry I'm reacting so violently to this, but you've hit a *very* sore spot for me.
I do computer science for a living and I am a mathematician by trade and training. Yes, I can program and enjoy doing so, but this is not what makes me a "Computer Scientist". I also enjoy tinkering with old sports cars and have a decent grasp of mechanics. I certainly don't consider myself a qualified automotive engineer though.
You claim to have read "hundreds of CS" books; but have you really? Is there a chance they were programming and technology books? If you want a taste of what real "computer science" looks like, I happily recommend reading the following:
- Computational Complexity by Papidimitriou
- Automata Theory and Languages by Hopcroft and Ullman
- Compilers... I can't remember the whole name but its got a big picture of a dragon on the front. If you ask anyone in the business about 'the dragon book' they'll know what you mean... by Aho, Sethi and Ullman (I think).
- The Russell and Norvig AI book
- Any book on lambda-calculus and recursive function theory (I can't think of a good introductory-level text at the moment). Even better if it introduces semantics too.
Those will give you a feel for some of the areas that are considered "Computer Science". The ability to program will get you through first year; after that, its more about math and.. gasp... thinking, than it is about whipping up code.
Again, sorry for the rant, but I think Edsgar Dykstra (a famous Computer Scientist) summed it up best when he said:
"Computer Science is as much about computers as Astronomy is about telescopes".
Truer words were never spoken.
In the place that I work, several people who used to work here had college degrees in CS from respectable colleges. And you know what? They couldn't cut it AT ALL on the job. Sure, they knew the fundamentals, but they didn't know how to apply those to their work.
That is what things like internships and "the first job" are for. As hundreds of others have pointed out in this thread, college is not about getting, for example, the programming skills for the rest of your life. The idea is completely different. Colleges realize they are not trade schools, and nor can they replace on-the-job experience. But they provide something completely different.
Which makes them pretty much worthless on the job.
No, they have potential. They need to be trained for the specific job, just like an employee who never went to college. You do train your new employees, do you not?
A degree will only help to:
1) Get your foot in the door.
2) Back up the skills you actually have.
You forgot one:
3) Know how to learn.
I would argue that #3 is the most important, and what you are not allowing your new employees to do.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
Ok, here's some of the experience I've had, and the conclusions I've drawn from them:
./'ers are not taking into account that you don't just need a degree to move into management. You might also need it for the leg up on your competition. Take this economic heap of steaming s___ that we're in. If you're laid off, then you are most likely competing with several other people who have the same qualifications and who were also laid off. Given the pick, who would most managers choose? You got it, the guy with the degree. Why? Chances are, he'll catch less hell from his management.
The degree isn't always required to get a good job. And you can live a good life without ever getting one. However, for good and bad, there are people who are unwilling/unable to hire non-degreed people. It's just a fact. Most
I personally have fought this battle my entire career. I've spent time on the degree on the side because I will eventually need it some day. For all of you out there who are still having a problem with the idea of getting a degree just to satisfy some suits, look at it using this analogy: neighborhood hockey. Lemme explain:
You might just be the best damn player in the neighborhood. All the other kids know it, and you're THE first to be picked. The only problem is, on Saturday, you can't play with them because you didn't pay the municipal fee to play in a city league. Therefore, when you go to the rink, the Ref is going to have to keep you from playing. Does it mean you are any less qualified? Absolutly not. It just means to some suits in your city government, you haven't paid the fee, and can't play in the official league for whatever reason they've come up with. Possibly an issue of liability for the city, or maybe something else unseen to you. It doesn't matter what reason they use though. You still can't play, because they say so.
You see, you will always be able to get a job without the degree, but it's going to be harder. You will end up fighting more for those positions.The degree is a key to open several doors that you can't open on merit alone.
Now, in respect to the experience you get with a degree, here are a few comments:
a degree does not an engineer make.
experience does not an engineer make.
It's the combo of the degree (theory) with the experience (practical knowledge) that makes the best engineers. The theory tells us how something
is supposed to work, and the practice tells us where the theory is wrong so that the theory can be refined. You can operate exclusively in either domain, but you will get the best results in the area where they overlap.
As for the BullS*** arts classes that they make you take? Well, believe it or not, they're very useful too. History enables you to see patterns
of behavior in human culture. So does poly-sci and psycology. English ensures that you will be able to communicate your ideas clearer. Foriegn language expands your view of "those" other people in other areas of the world, as well as helps you communicate with them in an ever increasingly global market. Business and economics gives you the ability to identify trends your future employers will be following, and will give you a set of tools to judge how well they are doing in whatever market they're in.
Besides, let's remember who our customer's are: the non-techies. Yep, you'll be dealing with them some day. And you'll do much better if you have a way to talk with them. That's where the Liberal Arts classes come in.
Just some thoughts and conclusions.
PacketKing
Ignorance is lacking knowledge, stupidity is a choice of ignoring knowledge.
I've been in the IT industry for 16 years now, the last 6 in management. I almost finished a degree in 1985, but the fact is I do not have one. My story is similar to yours -- get started, work your way up, do not accept unnecessary limitations. It's always encouraging to see that others occasionally follow this path.
I have hired people ranging from non-degree up to MSCS. Looking at the performance of the entire group, the degree people fit the "normal curve". Some good, some bad, most were at least adequate. The non-degree people were hired only when they could demonstrate superior skills. As it happens, those skills made them top performers when it was time to actually do the job. Of all the non-degree people I have hired, I have yet to be disappointed.
In my opinion, the degree is part of the selection criteria ONLY when ALL of the applicants are light on experience.
Some of the other posts are correct in that certain industries are militant about the degree requirement. Around here the common examples are government, insurance, defense, banking, and pharmaceuticals.
Case study #1: I once hired a guy whose only work experience was as a VCR repair technician. He was an engineering/computer hobbyist, whom I had known for years. He was an incredibly sharp guy, just a little unfocused. He was part of my staff for a few years, and then left to become a system manager for one of the largest banks in New England.
Case study #2: Same story, except this guy was an electrician who was doing mostly Cat.5 network wiring. He was on my staff for a few years, and is now the network manager for an state government agency with a very sophisticated WAN and LAN environment that includes numerous remote sites and thousands of PCs.
Case study #3: I knew another guy who earned an ASEE. He looked for a job and found nothing. He goes back for an AS in Data Processing. New job search, same result. He goes to another college and earns a BSCS. Still no job. Finally, he goes to college #3 and gets an MSCS, and EVENTUALLY, a job installing PCs and LANs in Georgia. We would still be driving a van full of PCs from Georgia to Alabama if I didn't hire him. Since then, he worked his way up through operations and became an Oracle DBA. He now works for a major pharmaceutical company, so things worked well for him too. Then again, if he never graduated from anywhere, I don't see how his life would be any different today, aside from possibly earning an additional 6 years of salary.
Let's face it, when the IT job market is cold, MOST applicants are going to get excuses instead of job offers. In such a tough market, you have to outwit, outplay, and outlast your competition, degree or not. In a hot IT market, the offers are out there, and exceptions are being made by employers, beyond what most people can possibly imagine.
Does the lack of a degree reduce my theoretical number of potential employers? YES, it does. However, I don't expect to get an offer from every interview. No one ever does. In my career, I have interviewed about 12 times and received 5 offers, for a hit rate of about 42%. Did I get "screened out" of several opportunities? Sure, but who cares? I only accepted 2 of the 5 offers, and I've been promoted 6 times by two employers during 16 years of uninterrupted employement. I don't let the degree become an obstacle, and every so often I find employers who agree with me. After all, I can only DO one job at a time, right? If I apply for ten jobs and I'm ranked #1 once and dead last for the other nine, that's a hell of a lot better than being ranked #2 all ten times, as described in case study #3 above.
In my opinion, things that don't make you a #1 choice are not all that useful. To me, the degree is what helps you reduce the number of reasons why an employer might NOT hire you, but it's not as valuble as adding a reason why they WOULD hire you. Think of yourself as a hiring manager. Can you imagine telling your boss something like "I hired Joe Smith because he has a degree." On the other hand, would you rather say "I hired Joe Smith because he has great experience." To me, one of those statements sounds much better than the other.