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Techie, Wrench-head, or Both?
An Anonymous Coward
throws this spanner into the works by asking: "OK, a response to another Slashdot question has made me wonder... Can techies fix cars? I know computers very well, I can fix VCRs, and I can wire home theater systems but I don't know the slightest thing about my car. I am not sure I even want to but I thought some other Slashdoters might want to way in on that. Could it be the whole "getting dirty" thing with cars? What do you think? How well do you know the inner workings of that thing that sits in the driveway?" I used to think I liked taking anything apart, not just computers, but after spending a few frustrating afternoons maintaining my car, I figured such things were best left to the professionals. However, I may be a minority in this, based on the responses from the last auto-related question.
Too much grease and oil. I don't know about other geeks, but I hate to get grease and oil and rubbish all over my hands because it's hard to clean off your hands, and then you get it on your keyboard :-(. I do have a car project though, but it will be a once off to remove all the internal combustion engine related gear in my car, and replace it with an electric motor. Once the old stuff is out it shouldn't be as messy.
David
I grew up in an auto shop. Replacing spark plugs, changing engine oil. Rebuilding trannys. I am equally at home with a car or a computer.. but on the other hand I have friends in the IT industry who are tops in their field but are uncomfortable even checking their own oil or filling their washer fluid.
If you can't figure out my address, just drop me an e-mail and I will explain.
I had a job doing tech support a few years back and when it was time for me to go home, my starter motor went out. I came back the next day with a new starter motor and installed it in the pouring rain. I walked into the building to return the wrench set to the sysadmin and clean up, at which time my supervisor asked me what I was doing there on my day off. I told him that I had to change the starter motor on my car and put in a new battery. His jaw dropped and he said, "You mean you can fix cars too!?!" For a couple of days he was going off about how I was able to fix my own car. To me its just another device. I guess its 'cause I was taking things apart and sometimes putting them back together from the time I could hold a screw driver.
I enjoy working on both cars and computers. I work as an admin fixing stupid student and professor problems, and then I go and fix the car 1966 Mustang. Last week I had the engine stripped halfway down to fix a head problem. Not the easiest thing in the world, but as long as you don't mind getting dirty, and can follow instructions it's pretty easy. A lot cheaper too :-)
Let Microsoft know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship
it seems no one has mentioned a (perhaps the) definitive work on this subject (among others): Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence
It says that one of the major things wrong with society today (and yesterday and tomorrow) is the "leave it to the pros" mentality that many people adopt regarding 'technology,' be it a computer, a leaky faucet, a motorcycle, or a car. I think most slashdotters have a DIY frame of mind when it comes to computers, but I think limiting that attitude to computers alone is confusing. One of the key elements of a curious, enthusiastic, and gumptionful attitude is that it encompasses anything and everything it comes across. So, before you write off car maintainence, think about the zeal with which you would attack a similar problem on a computer, think about what knowledge and tools you are missing to perform said fix, and get to it!
While I suppose that getting particularly dirty working on a car might be objectionable to those of you who are stereotypical non-bathing geeks, I don't seem to have much trouble spending 5 minutes with a jar of hand cleaner to save several hundred dollars in "professional" labor.
Most car troubles are fixed with simple, bolt-on parts. Starters, water pumps, alternators, and most commonly brakes, are bloody simple to replace. A couple of bolts, a wire or two, perhaps a belt and you're done - with enough extra money left over to buy a new bigass hard drive.
Suspension parts are easy. I replaced a rear wheel bearing on my Beretta in about a half hour. Shocks took slightly longer, but were still a walk in the park.
Oddly enough, I often find it easier to work on my car's hardware than my computer's. I don't want to remove every wire connecting my PC to the outside world when I work on it, just as I don't want to remove the engine from a car to change the spark plugs. Thus, I find myself crawling under desks, with my head and shoulders tucked between two shelves, and using my third elbow to install a new DIMM. Whereas, on a car, one simply puts the thing in gear, drives up a set of cheap portable ramps, and sets the brake to get at the guts inside.
Diagnosing a car is much like diagnosing failing computer hardware in terms of thought processes required. Does it crank? No. Does it click? Yes. Measure the voltage of the battery - if voltage is sane, the battery is charged and it's either a dead starter motor or a bad connection. If not, the battery is discharged, either due to age, abuse, bad alternator, or a bad connection.
Simple stuff. Turn the power on a PC. Does it boot? No. Do any fans spin? Yes. Check connections, re-seat memory, CPU and anything else that plugs in. Does machine still not boot? Yes. Measure power supply voltage. If it's sane, toss the motherboard.
I treat internal motor problems differently, but I also treat component-level problems on, say, a flakey motherboard differently as well. Which is to say, that I don't care enough to learn how to fix them - if I burn a piston on my car, it's either getting a different engine, getting fixed by someone who knows what they're doing, or being thrown away. Just like I would do with a motherboard which, for some reason, stopped doing DMA (though I'd be most likely to replace it first, and seek professional opinion later).
Point is, it's the same thing. The parts are heavier, and often dirtier, but I've never had sneezing fits from an oil-covered spark plug boot. The cruft inside of a 5-year-old PC is a different story.
And, besides, there's interesting problems to overcome. The vacuum resevoir's mounting tab broke off on my car. I noticed sthis ometime after the front tire had worn a hole into it, and delayed repairs until sometime after it had fallen off completely. Symptoms? Strange noises at odd times, and no control of heater vent selection under acceleration.
By the time I got around to doing something about it, it was not obvious at all where the thing originally mounted. I found a replacement resevoir and a length of suitable tubing at a junk yard for (literally) a couple of dollars. Using stout, expensive wire ties I attached it to one of the shocks inside of the front bumper cover. Fed the new vacuum line along the loom with the a bunch of wires and other stuff to the check valve where the old one connected.
The new location offers good protection from road debris. I'm satisfied that it won't ever break loose or become disconnected, unless I hit something hard enough to dislodge my teeth. It is thus better than the original.
Same thing with the stainless steel strap I fashioned together with grade 8 nuts and bolts to hold the muffler in place, rather than the rusty, and poorly-riveted iron strap that came from the factory. The OEM strap, given a few Ohio winters, didn't survive the impact of the car falling a few inches when the rear wheel bearing snapped. The new one, which I made from stuff I had sitting around, should outlive me, regardless of what type of abuse I deliver to it. I have no doubt that it will be justfine when the car once again goes skidding, bottomed-out, along the roadway as a complete wheel (and half of the brakes!) go bouncing merrily away. [not that I'm looking forward to a repeat of that particular episode.] GM didn't do this because it's relatively expensive, just as Dell doesn't use solid copper Alpha heatsinks for their customers' overclocking joy.
But I'm not GM or Dell. I'll use a copper heatsink if I feel like it, and I'll make up for it (with change to spare) by installing it myself.
Pride, cash in my pocket, and a working automobile that I learned something new about, which is now in some way better than new. What's not to love?
-
Kid-proof tablet..
... I can't see this is the sort of thing you can generalise.
Some people here are saying they think cars are too messy, too noisy, too big, whatever. Personally, I just like finding out how _anything_ works. Yes, _anything_.
I'm the kid who dismantled half his toys to find out what was inside them, who dismantles every click-action biro he ever gets his hands on to see what the mechanism does this time (there's surprising variety)... you get the idea. I don't actually do any more severe work on my car than changing wheels, simply because I've never had the time or enthusiasm to learn and I don't trust myself not to get something wrong and cause a dangerous / expensive problem. But I can describe to you how most of the bits there work and talk about new advances in the technology. I've done almost all my own bicycle maintenance and I've spent hours working building model vechicles and components in Meccano. No dislike for the mechanical, just no incentive (yet) to work on my car.
We're all different, we're all attracted to computers for different reasons. My reason happens to be the same reason that I'm interested in cars - and, well, pretty much anything mechanical. Yours may not be. Welcome to the diverse world of Computing.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
After all, every person I know which is interested in computers, programming, things digital are lazy. It is nice to say, "hey, line 10 is your problem, you can't asume the string will be terminated. Do this, and recompile", and wait for the computer to finish the hard work.
If you spot a problem inside a car's motor you have to crawl around, lift heavy things, get yourself dirty, hurt yourself with tools and parts with sharp edges and generally waste much time on not-brainwork.
For me the most interesting part is figuring out and solving a problem in theory. If in practice that means I have to do routine tasks for many hours, I usually don't do it at all.
That's the difference between recompilling code and reassembling a motor.
Thanks.
Where did the dust puppy from UF come from then?? ;)
Yeah, I can fix my own car, but I don't. Back when I was younger (read less money, and more time) I used to fix my own cars. No I don't have the time. Cars were somewhat simpler then too - no computer. As someone else said, suspension, brakes, shockes etc are simple - struts are just about as simple IF you have the tools.
Now days I get my mechanical fix buy BUILDING steam engines - 1.5" to the foot scale. No these aren't electric models - they have REAL boilers, can bull 20-30 people around and coal.
To do this requires I have a rather nice shop - Metal Lathe, Vertical Mill, arc welders, torch set, etc. (Gotta get a surface grinder someday)
So, yeah, I can fix a car
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Yeah, okay... I'm a nerd. Sure, I can take apart a computer in less than thirty seconds in most every instance. That's just the nature of the beast.
Cars are different. Don't get me wrong, I do work on my car often--usually aided by my brother, who is a mechanic. Why not do it all myself? Tools. A computer can be nearly completely taken apart with a single #2 phillips screwdriver. A single screwdriver won't get you anywhere on a car. We always like to say "the right tool for the job", but in the car industry nearly every job has its own specialized tools. And those tools can be expensive. My brother's tools ended up costing him over $15,000 when all said and done; and that's not even everything.
I think geeks (like most people) simply don't bother working on their cars because that would mean buying more tools. My garage is full enough with two cars, thanks--I don't want half of that taken up with Ryan's Full Service Center. If I can get my car up to my brother's, I'll work on it there. If not, I'll pay to have the service done locally--only because I don't want pay $50 for necessary tools to replace a $15 part and it will only cost me $40 to get it taken care of. Sure, the tools pay for themselves over time, but I'm just not interested in the losing my car's place in the garage.
Long, cute, or funny Sigs are just another form of over compensation, used by geeks, nerdz, etc.
In a car, these things don't always apply. Electricity is intermittent? Perhaps, during a particularly heavy rain, sometimes water gets onto a loose wire and creates a short. And on and on.
Reminds me of the time we were kids and drove to the store with a friend of ours and his little old Italian dad. The car wouldn't start when we came out of the store. So our friend hopped in the driver's seat, and the dad pulled out a hammer, opened the hood, and whacked something. 'Try it now, Freddy!" he yelled. Nothing. Whack, whack. "Again!" Nothing. Whack, whack. Whack! "One more time, I've hit every fucking thing in there." And it started.
I've written code using that approach. :)
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
As long as it's something mechanical, it's pretty easy, actually. Especially if you pick up a good manual. A dealer can get for you the same manual their mechanics use for working on your car (ask for the "shop manual" or "factory service manual") - For a Chrysler product, it runs about $90 but you can literally disassemble and reassemble the vehicle with it.
Get some help for the first couple times and from there you'll be all set. Start easy - spark plugs, for example. I started there and now I'm comping at the bit to start ripping the top of the engine apart. Only things stopping me are parts availability (the intake manifold I want is on national backorder), money, and physical resources (rules about working on cars in the apartment complex where I live). Thus far I've replaced my shocks, air intake, throttle body, spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap & rotor, thermostat & fan (and then put the old fan back on when I trashed the new one in a mudpit), added a tonneau cover, trailer hitch, skidplates, and more to my truck. Most of which I did myself.
Once you get into electronics-related stuff, however, or the need to use a scan tool to pull codes stored in the computer to diagnose problems, you're looking at spending serious money or just taking it to a dealer.
It really, really helps to find a club, mailing list, or similar, of people who own the same car yo've got (such as the Durango Owner's Club and Dakota Mailing List). They can be immensely helpful in getting you started in doing your own maintenance, and will recommend to you better parts than a mechanic or dealer will sell you, probably for less money. They'll also give you confidence you need and sometimes even step-by-step instructions. And in the process, get you spending even more money and time on modding the vehicle.
I find there is much more to it than 'fixing it when it breaks'. It's an issue of preventative maintenance -- fluids (not just oil!), brakes, shocks, and other moving parts. I have a tendency to keep a car so long that I need to replace the clutch. If one takes proper care of a car, pays attention to what noise is normal (and what isn't), then you won't end up playing catch-up.
Just like windows systems need regular anti-virus updates and other patching, cars need their attention, too. I've bought the Bentley manuals (2-inch thick complete reference books) for every vehicle I've owned, and (for the most part) I follow the maintenance schedules. As a reward, my cars are reliable, and I'm not shackled to a bank via a car payment. The car is mine, period, and I like it that way, thanks.
Another issue comes into play when one is willing (and capable) of such mechanical and electrical prowess -- used cars are a lot less expensive, and when purchased from individuals, you never have to interact with slimius vulgaris Rex, also known as the (used) car salesworm.
I have owned Volkswagens exclusively for 15 years now, and I've been able to appreciate the engineering that has gone into each one. You can see the thought that went into the evolution from original I-4 gas & diesel engines to 15 V-6 (VR6) to the 1.8t & TDI engines popular now. Each one of these has been interesting to work on (I can't absolutely say "fun"), and at least logical in their assembly. The evolution from mechanical/electric to solid-state systems has been great in my opinion; it makes things easier, more powerful, and more efficient. (I especially appreciate OBD-II)
I find that the more I have worked on my cars, the more easily I can diagnose noises and problems. I won't hesitate to dive into an A/C compressor replacement (with its associated 'gotcha's and other 'mandatory replace' components), and repairing a power window is something I can do in an hour after work.
On the other hand, I watched a fellow try to change spark plugs on a Mitsubishi 3000 GT -- he had to remove the intake manifold to get to the rear 3! The more I have looked at other cars, particularly ones of Asian design, the more I realize how VW specialized I have become. Looking at a Toyota Supra Turbo, for example, I almost felt the same way I did the first time I sat down in front of a UNIX computer -- completely out of my element.
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
you left out "techies who need a wrench in their heads"
Liberty uber alles.
A good example is my Ford Contour: although the on-board comp can't actually seize control of the shift lever (the Corvette's can!), it can refuse to put the power back on after the shift if it thinks my doing so is not in the best interest of the engine. And that's not even an adaptive control system! A good friend of mine decided to leave the wrenching world when he was trying to diagnose a problem with an automatic transmission, and the computer changed the behaviour of the trans every time he drove it. Even Windows 98 doesn't do that!
sPh
Well said. It seems that cars and computers elicit similar reactions from people. Either youre one of those "super geeks" that understand their workings, or you're too scared of that complicated machine to touch it. We all find it amusing when someone says that computers are really difficult to work on or figure out. I have the same reaction to people who claim cars are complicated. Then, I grew up on a farm with a dad with a pretty hot '70 chevelle (yes, the LS6), so I knew mechanics before I knew computers. An engine's simple, the systems are simple, but if someone's made up their mind that the device is "too complicated" for them to learn, then they'll never learn about it. Really, that's sad, because it's far easier to get screwed out of hundreds or thousands of dollars getting a car fixed than it is when getting a computer fixed by "professionals". Personally, I think that there should be a basic auto shop class required in high school for everyone who might drive someday. You don't have to know a wrist pin from a water pump, but you should know that low tire pressure will affect mileage and how to change oil before you can own a car.
Oh, to answer the question, I'm a wrenchhead and a computer geek. Learning makes me happy, creating make me happy, and variety makes me happy. That's why.
Ok - let me give you a bit of "insight" on my own personal experience...
By "day", I am a coder (currently Java, but will hack on anything thrown at me - including - "shudder" - DB/C - a COBOL varient - "shudder"). But when I go home, especially on the weekends - things can get, well...interesting...
On the "low" end I have fun with simple mechanical stuff (case in point - the other night I spent a couple of hours tearing apart, in full - a Logitech Trackman Marble - to clean it. It was a friend's, who gave it to me because it was "broke". He lives in one of those icky, dirty, roach-infested "gee-I-wonder-why" "geek" houses. Needless to say, it now works). Up a little higher I do digital electronic design and interfacing, mainly for custom robotic, virtual reality, and "embedded" application. IE - I break out the soldering iron and multimeter, and become a "wire-head". A little further I start doing fab work - breaking out the bigger tools (ie, dremel, saws, drills, etc) - for a variety of projects in metal, plastic, and wood (typically, these bits of work are parts of similar projects in robotics and VR).
But recently (well, it started soon after I got my first and current vehicle) - I have started down a fun, sometimes exciting, sometimes scary, and always dirty, dirty, dirty - path.
I have, with the help of my brother-in-law (whom I have mentioned in my past comments - he's the guy who drives a 10 wheel dump truck, and thinks nothing of using ether to "air up" a backhoe tire) been learning how to repair my vehicle - as I have learned the basics, I have become more comfortable working around and on it, and other large machines. I have always loved machines, but it used to scare me to think about pulling one apart, changing parts, etc. As I have worked on my vehicle, I have become much more confident. I regularly change my oil (both engine, transmission, and differential - ohh, does gear oil STINK!), spark plugs, battery, etc. I have done both front and rear brakes, drum and disc, repacked bearings, changed shocks, etc. I recently helped my brother-in-law remove and replace his clutch on his pickup, as well as diagnose and fix a loose steering wheel (bad u-joint). I have even learned how to do a home-brew wheel alignment!
This man has showed me a lot - he is all the time tearing his dump truck apart (mainly because it is over 25 years old, and has more new parts than original - but you got to keep it running, because that is his job) - I have seen him take the entire side of his engine off, to replace a blower housing on his engine. I have seen him drop the differential and replace it. He is always changing tires on the thing, or repacking hydraulic rams, or doing something. I have seen this man covered, head-to-toe, in dirt and grease working from sundown to sunup - to keep his truck going and provide for his small family. He is my mentor in these things, and I couldn't ask for a better one.
Recently, he has been teaching me a new "trade": metalwork - mainly Arc Welding. In addition, he has showed me how to properly use an OxyAcetylene torch for cutting steel. In the future, once I have regular stick welding down, I hope to move to an Argon gas wire-feed his dad has in his shop. Grinding, cutting, welding - red to white hot steel, flowing down, dripping near your toes. Hot bits of steel flying past your head (encased safely in a welding mask, of course) - some hitting your arms, and bitting like fire ants - that is what I am learning about.
Where to next - well I have been pondering home-based smelting...
Now, you may ask - how will this help me? I am a coder by day, after all - what good can all this do me? One thing, it lets me take my mind off coding - relaxes it, allowing time off to mull over other things, and maybe solutions to a coding problem come to my head because of that. But you know what I look forward to?
Imagine me combining my knowledge of coding, electronic design and interfacing, fabrication, autowork, metalwork, welding, cutting, grinding, and smelting - what can I design? What can I do?
<Smiling, with visions of a jet powered, teleoperated walking robot dancing in my head...>
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
But it's way too expensive a hobby for me to actually do anything aside from basic maintenance.
So, I change my oil, flush my coolant, replace worn parts, but that's about it, I don't have the time, money or space for a project car, as much as I'd like to have one.
C-X C-S
Cars, are smelly, murderous, obs1337 industrial equipment
So that's why I like them!
C-X C-S
ObSpandexIsFuglyNoMatterHowTonedYourAssIs:
One pro to cars even you can agree with: people don't wear neon spandex while driving them.
Why do cyclists feel the need to wear that crap?
You're just riding a damn bike, not being jammed into a giant anime robot.
(Yes, I know that's not a robot. But it's close enough.)
I fix my own cars. Probably beyond the point of sense, occasionally beyond my own ability, for example breaking something else in the process.
Being comfortable working with your hands & getting messy is probably the main difference.
It took me years to be truly comfortable with cars, just as with computers. I had lots of cars that were so crappy that it was unlikely I could make things worse.
They both share:
I take pleasure in their design & execution. Who doesn't like a good hack?
I like understanding how things work, and using that understanding. The question of "why doesn't it work?" is a way to further understanding of how it does work. I also enjoy working with my hands and my mind at the same time.
I have on rare occasion made trivial parts that I needed, and on other occasions used hideous hacks. I have also irreparably broken things.
It's fun looking at something and figuring out "why the hell did they do _that_?" whether the answer is finally money, or a fit of perverse originality.
It's a secure feeling knowing that if you don't understand a problem, it is very unlikely that the professionals will be able to do any better.
Not true of software:
Physical stuff if fun to play with.
Break things. Perhaps only things that can't be used otherwise. They break in interesting ways, if you're paying attention. Besides, they make a great noise.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
Get the factory service manual for your car - not the cheapie Chiltons or Haynes manuals, but the ones that the dealer uses. These go into great detail on how to fix things the right way, with very tech-like flow charts, trouble trees, etc.
A lot of the same characteristics of fixing computers applies to cars - take a methodical, structured approach to things and RTFM. Make one change at a time and see how it affects things.
"...'75 El Camino with a 350HO crate motor..."
....otherwise known as Elky. Which is definitely *not* a Norwegian Elkhound...unless, of course, it slurps down unleaded and can run 130+MPH. (Now *that's* a bitch I'd like to own!)
$6.21 is the number of the beast before sales tax. Meh.
Your electric motor is going to have a lot less kick to it than the old ICE - I hope you're doing this to a fairly small car, and a newer one - they're made of lighter materials that the older Detroit iron. Uh, you do know they build electric car chassises out of lighter materials than conventional ones, don't you? Also, the weight of the bateries will eat up any weight loss you gain from removing the internal combustion engine. Is this really something you want to do?
I'm the stranger...posting to
Lucky me, my wife knows enough about cars so that there's only one of us scratching our heads when a problem comes up. I try to learn from her when I can, but I still don't ever seem to get the hang of them. ("What the hell is the distributor cap again?" etc.)
For the record: yeah, I don't know squat about cars. I hate cars. Cars are a money pit. Anyway, I don't really have a spare car to dink around with. I'm comfortable completely fucking up my computer and then spending a hundred dollars to get it back up and running... but not my car. See, if I screwed my car up real bad, it'd probably end up costing me more than the cost of a whole new computer just to fix one thing! (Well that, and my wife would get really, super pissed off. She could care less about my computer. ;)
Maybe I'd change my mind if I spent some time figuring out how to hook into the car's diagnostic(?) computer. Not sure how much good it'd do, though...
Where do you get the fuel cell mixture, or the fuel cells themselves? And fuel cells of batteries, they're still heavey as heck. Still, good luck - I'd really like to see this hack. What motor are you using?
I'm the stranger...posting to
It's one of those things that's simple in concept, but is full of fiddly little details. But here's hoping you do get /.ed - although considering the number of dupelicate posts lately, multiple /.ings are more likely :-)
I'm the stranger...posting to
From about 17 I could strip an engine completely (5 cylinder Audi 2 litre job:) and would love to still do the maintenance myself, but it just is not cost effective. I can pay someone £100 quid to replace all my spark plugs, distributer, oil etc in an hour, but it would cost me maybe 3 times that in time wasted if I did it. So I don't bother
On the other hand, you rarely have to upgrade the trusty 1/2 inch socket driver, so once you have collected most of the tools, things get cheaper as time goes along and you begin to be able to solve problems under the hood with only the tools you have.
Personally, I think it's a completely reasonable thing for a geek to do his own auto repair. In my case, it was darned near required-- I hate black magic. I refused to believe that I could not figure out what was going wrong with my truck.
I learned a few things along the way: