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Fuel-Cell Power With Methanol
foaty writes: "It has been reported that Japanese electronics companies have developed prototypes for fuel-cell batteries that can power the smallest of electronic devices for long periods of time, and they only need refueling, not recharging! See the article at FutureEnergies.com." That article links to this piece at ZDNet; what's interesting is that instead of hydrogen, this article talks instead mostly about methanol-based fuel cells.
old news
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
The ZDNet article mentions a fuel cell being developed by NEC using nanotechnology to process the methane, with 10 times the energy density of current lithium batteries - anybody know what that is about? I'd guess it was wild blue-sky stuff that won't be available for decades, except that I used to know somebody who worked at NEC research in the US, and they seemed pretty serious about practical applications of research.
Energy: time to change the picture.
This isn't some new miracle pulled out of the hat by the Japanese. For example, an MIT Technology Review article on some American work on a methanol fuel cell is here. A whole bibliography on recent Direct Methanol Fuel Cell (DMFCs) work is here.
Why would refueling be preferable to recharging?
I kind of like having only to plug into a wall to recharge my laptop, as opposed to having to stop off at a gas station, or buy a big supply of this stuff to keep in my garage.
Hemos posted methanol portable fuel-cells almost a year ago to the week - made by Motorola.
I'm a 2000 man.
Canaries. You'll have to carry around a canary, and if he drops dead, roll down the window on your SUV.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Actually, the "common" name for methanol is "wood alcohol". "Rubbing alcohol" generally refers to isopropyl alcohol. Methanol is actually fairly toxic and I don't think you'd want it routinely rubbed into your skin...
As this idea seems to be more and more common, I wonder what would happen if I try and take my fuel cell powered laptop on a plane. The only place I really like to use my laptop is when I travel. I don't know that I see the airlines allowing me onboard with a flammable liquid powered laptop.
Did you ever take any chemistry classes? It is used as a solvent, grease remover and makes a large part of cooking/technical alcohol. Methanol is pretty harmless unless you drink it. Of course, breathing a saturated atmosphere of metanol is dangerous, but then there couldn't be much more than a few millilitres in an electronic device.
There is also the environmental aspect. Methanol can be made from wood, so the net CO2 pollution is 0. I'd rather have a spill of some alcohol than undegradable heavy metals.
I picked this para from : Re-Solv
Butane gas is the main component chemical found in lighter refills, usually making up 90% of the product. As these flammable containers are activated under pressure, the fuel gas is released at a very low temperature, presenting a risk through direct oral abuse of cold burns, respiratory difficulties and death by vagal inhibition due to rapid cooling of the larynx. The vagal nerve runs through the neck and inhibition of this nerve leads directly to heart failure, slowing of the heart, and cardiac arrest.
The dangers of using these fuel cells is miniscule compared to the widely used lighters.
At least this is what Daimler Chrysler has found for vehicular fuel cells. When you're talking cell phone sized, however, I don't know if that's still true.
John
John
One can imagine the confused look on the Gas Station Attendant's face when you hand him a nickel and tell him "3 cents on Pump #7."
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I believe it is also illegal in some locales to sell mercury-based thermometers.
Of course, the mercury-filled button batteries powering most of those thermometers will probably end up in the trash next week...sigh.
John
John
With all of the current concern about bombs and the like, this seems like it might be a big hurdle.
I've seen so many companies/labs/etc... with prototype portable personal fuel cells for running electronics over the past 5 years, but none of them have made it to production. I'll believe it when i can get one off the shelf and use it for my wearable, but until such a time, it's just pie in the sky.
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Play Six Pack Man. I
Whenever fuel cells are discussed on slashdot, someone is always quick to point out the dangers, without properly realizing that common household cleaners come in larger quantities, and are just as toxic, or even more so.
Also, nobody thinks twice about handling cans of hairspray or lighter fluid which are thin, pressurized containers with extremely flammable contents. Or for that matter, Lithium batteries which contain very aggressive chemicals.
Of course, taking these things on planes may require some sort of safety standard.
In case you don't know what inhaled methanol will do to you, expect liver failure, blindness and brain damage.
I think you overreact a bit. If you spill a few millilitres of methanol and inhale the vapour, you're not going to come to harm, as long as you mop it up and ventilate the area. Also, you'd need to inhale a very large amount to get liver failure and brain damage. These symtoms are usually caused by ingestion.
I for one prefer a nice safe, Ni-Cad or Lithium-Hydride battery, but then I'm pretty health conscious.
As a chemist, I very much hope that was sarcasm. Cadmium is a cumulative poison (like lead but worse) which can cause lung and kidney damage.
Lithium Hydride reacts very violently on contact with water to produce Hydrogen and clouds of hot Lithium Hydroxide solution vapour, which are highly irritating to the respiratory system, and generally not very nice.
One has to take these things in perspective, and methanol fuel cells are no more dangerous that any other type of battery.
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:-P
I've seen so many companies/labs/etc... with prototype portable personal fuel cells for running electronics over the past 5 years
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Hydrogen gas 3x the energy of gasoline but takes too much space. Methanol has slightly less energy than gasoline but has comparable space requirement and able to use in fuel cell. What you want to look for is ROOM TEMPERATURE fuel cell which hydrogen can readily do (although is optimum at 60-70'C. Methanol with platinum catalyst need to be heated up above boiling point. For laptop this probably not a problem because we can finally put that heat from the microprocessor to good use.
Honestly, officer, that's just extra fuel for my laptop. It's a shame, but I think this technology is not going to make it for security reasons. Essentially, you are carrying a little Molotov cocktail on board.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
I believe it extrudes CO2. Like, say, our mouths do.
It's about as safe as a cigarette lighter, which no one seems to have problems with.
Also, you drive every day in front of the massive bomb you call your car's gas tank.
It's just a matter of fear, and familiarity.
Oh, sounds so dangerous. It would never be possible. I mean, carrying a small amount of a highly flammable liquid in a small container so close to your body. The technological hurdles to make that safe are huge.
Hang on, let me light a cigarette...
oh wait...nevermind.
The interesting thing about this device is its incredibly small size.
The nanotechnology they are referring to is commericial technology that isn't really nanotechnology, unless you count the structure of the solid phase metal oxide catalyst nanotechnology. I'm guessing they're referring to the size of the metal oxide which does all the chemical work of converting the methanol to hydrogen and CO2. If so, then they're using NMOs (Nanoscale Metal Oxides) as catalysts, and this technology has been around for quite awhile and is in use today. Technically, NMOs are "nanotechnology" in that the active structure is nanoscale sized. But its not the type of nanotechnology most people think of.
The fuel cells mentioned are probably based on technology that came out of Los Alamos about 4-5 years ago. It used a ceramic support for the NMOs (cerium oxide I think) to convert the methanol into hydrogen and CO2. The hydrogen then gets "burned" to generate energy and water. Again, this isn't blue sky stuff, it exists now.
Interestingly, water-based fuel cells can work as well. Some prototypes exist, but they're solar powered and the catalysts which breaks the water down into hydrogen and oxygen don't have a lot of catalytic cycles before they die. Also, they're VERY expensive, which is the big reason why they're not being used, even if they have great potential use.
-When going for broke, go for Ithaca!
How long before we'll have vending machines dishing out fully-charged batteries (and accepting your discharged ones in return, only to charge them and put them back in circulation) ? Just an idea...
Haven't we been using stuff like lead-acid batteries for years...What's so dangerous about having to use another highly toxic product for our energy needs?
Methanol is only poisonous if you chug a few ounces of it. That's why they put it in denatured rubbing alcohol. You can't suffer any harm from inhaling a few milliliters of the stuff.
Also, its not explosive. Alcohol WILL NOT EXPLODE. It just burns. It's not as volatile as gasoline. The fire danger is much less than if you carry a lighter in your pocket.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
I used to use methanol in an ultrasonic cleaner to remove crud from instrument parts. After the sonic bath, I would use a spray bottle of methanol to hose the deposit dissolved alcohol from the parts. I have gotten quite a bit of it on my hands and it did not make me go blind or even so much as get dizzy. I worked in a well ventilated room and neither drank or deliberately inhaled the stuff. It's toxic if you drink it or inhale a boatload of it.
A few drops on your hand will NOT make one go blind. Gasoline is more dangerous than this stuff.
BTW I sense some flames coming so I will point out the ultrasonic cleaner was NOT filled with methanol. The tub held water as usual and the parts were put in a little tupperware dish of methanol. The tupperware dish was covered and THEN put into the cleaner. Once the parts were cleaned and rinsed with fresh methanol, they were allowed to drip dry and then baked out in a lab oven.
And those little batteries are also a concern. In fact, all batteries should be properly recycled so that the materials can be properly disposed of or even better reclaimed.
Not all environmentalists are complete cranks. I am, but not all of them are.
:wq
There are too many preannouncements in the fuel cell business, and very few products shipping. Ballard Power Systems maintains the illusion of having a product line, but when you look closely, you can't actually order units and get delivery. Everything is a prototype.
Does anyone know if it would be possible to use fuel cells in place of large diesel enigines?
For example: Locomotive engines use a giant diesel engine to power a generator, the generator in turn powers electric motors that turn the wheels. If you replaced the diesel engine with a shit-load of fuel cells, you lose the weight of the engine and generator and have no emissions, but would there be sufficient torque to pull several thousand tons of rail cars?
Another use would be for industrial UPS's or maybe even larger fuel cell plants to supply residential electricity.
Would any of this be practical?
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with. - Tennessee Williams
Cadmium is a cumulative poison (like lead but worse) which can cause lung and kidney damage.
Chemist #2 here. Cadmium can also cause your testicles to rot. Or so they taught me in that one class where we did heavy metal poisoning and chelation therapy and that kind of thing. Pretty peculiar, eh?
I have an artist friend who licks his paintbrushes... I keep telling him that's not such a good idea. Sadly the more IQ points he loses the less likely he is to listen!
I'm not sure why anyone would think of a child as a sex object, but keep it to yourself.
Because, Chester, the Japanese did it first. If you knew more about the weird animation and comics the Japanese produce the parent post would have been offensive AND funny instead of just the former.
Back in the old days, we had methylated spirits, an ethanol/methanol mixture. Some people drank it and went blind.
However, at least one legitamate use was lighting the Tilley Storm Lantern, a pressurised parrafin lanp. To get the mantle up to temperature to burn the parrafin mist/vapour, you had to light a heater composed of wad of cloth which had been soaked in meths. The stuff was also often used as a solvent for cleaning, less so now, but it still gets used.
See my journal, I write things there
Lithium Hydride reacts very violently on contact with water to produce Hydrogen and clouds of hot Lithium Hydroxide solution vapour, which are highly irritating to the respiratory system, and generally not very nice.
It won't do your skin much good either. Alkai metal hydroxides are caustic.
I like your comment about methanol being made from biomass, but its use (maybe production too) would still release carbon dioxide.
The good thing about fuel cells is that they are highly efficient (not restricted like a heat engine), so their CO2 impact is likely to be less than using combustion to produce electricity.
No the amount of carbon dioxide produced is going to be exactly the same (unless someone can produce a hydrocarbon fuel cell which also grows diamonds.)
The important issue is that the carbon in biomass derived fuels was carbon dioxide a short time ago. So by using such fuels little change is made to the proportion of carbon dioxide in the air. Since on average for every carbon atom coming out of the "engine" as carbon dioxide a molecure of carbon dioxide is being taken into a plant used to produce the fuel.
Consider the use of cigarette lighters. These use butane. If one really goes by the properties of butane then a cigarette ligher is more hazardous than this new invention.
Most aresols use either butane, propane or a mixture for propellant.
At least one company claims to have a workable ethanol fuel cell, which would not have the toxicity problems of methanol.
:)
Ethanol is still fairly toxic, just that a fair proportion of people have mechanisms for dealing with it. Because their ancestors dealt with contaminated drinking water by turning it into beer. (Presumably people who's ancestors made tea are more likely to be resistant to the kinds of chemicals plants put in their leaves...)
They reportedly demo'd it running off plain vodka.
For a fuel cell you want as pure as possible a fuel. It certainly wouldn't like it with tonic water added
Id rather inhale methaonal then to drop a pda or cell using hydrogen cells last thing i need is a pda equivalant of the Hindenburg.
Except that the problem with the Hindenburg is that the outside was painted with something not unlike solid rocket motor fuel. A hydrogen leak would have burned mostly above the airship, since it would have needed to mix with air and Earth's gravity is not great enough to hold any hydrogen in the atmosphere.
Going off topic, but what they hey.
I hate to say it, but I'm just telling it like it is. I'm not a huge fan of anime, but I do occassionally skim through the anime newsgroups. Let me be the first to say that a lot of it makes me ill. It's increasingly difficult to find the honest-to-goodness alluring, semi-mature anime amongst the "alien sex fiend" variety anime.
Sure, you can call me a troll, I fully expected it. But I didn't say it because I look forward to someone producing this kind of material, it was more of a harsh, sarcastic look at the real world.
I don't mean to make light of rape. It's a horrible crime and rapists shouldn't just be chemically castrated or jailed; they should be killed. But I do mean to point out that anime (the majority of which is produced in Japan) is polluted with sick, twisted, demeaning fantasies.
The joke here - as if you could possibly get it - is that anyone (meaning sicko anime producers) who could come up with the crap that they come with is likely to adapt any new technology into some sort of demeaning, cybernetic sex fiend theme.
Aw, why the hell am I explaining this? Humour, no matter how subtle or explicit is obviously lost here.
My sigs always suck.
Now if they really want to make a practical fuel cell, make it work from Methane, then you can really take literally those signs that say: Eat Here and Get Gas.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Speaking of recycling ALL batteries, is there any environmental hazard created by alkaline or carbon-zinc batteries? I saved the dead ones for years, and had a pail of them in the basement next to the dead NiCds and button batteries. When I hauled my recyclables to the center, they took the NiCds and the button batteries, but they would not take the others, and they advised me to throw them in the regular garbage. I did, (what else could I do with them if the recycling center wouldn't take them?) but I still wonder what environmental effect they have, other than occupying landfill space.
And not all cranks are wrong, either...
John
John
I'm sure that today you will be visited by members of the FBI and Secret Service, who wish to know of your al-Qaeda links. Please post your experience in a follow-up.
"What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
Anything can be funny, it just depends on the context.
Not that he was funny.
Humor is a great way to express a point, and its a great measure of what is going on in society. to make something "never ever funny in any context" to the point of physically harming them is wrong.
You need to listen to more george carlin, he puts it far more elequontly then I.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on