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Michael Robertson Interview about Lindows
unclegus writes "I ran across this article talking about Michael Roberston and Lindows. Says a "Sneak Preview" will be available in a few weeks. Release 1.0 will be $100 for single user ..." Dan Gillmor, the author of it, has said that it appears to be the real thing - I'll be interested in getting my hands on it.
"More choice is always better than less."
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
Is this (serious question) a GPL violation? If Apple can't make BASH the MacOS X command line shell (apparently they asked, RMS said no, that would be a violation), how can Lindows make Linux the kernel?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
From the info in the article, it seems that they are either erverse-engineering the Windows APIs, or mimicking the functionality with their own code. This is a time-consuming task.
Also, they said they are focusing on only 10 or so applications. They list Work, Excel, etc. But what about future revisions of these programs? I wonder if Ms would purposefully change them to break under Lindows, which Lindows would have to change to accomodate.
So will this become a perpetual 'chasing' game, trying to catch up to Microsoft?
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
He ran several Microsoft Office applications on his IBM ThinkPad, though some functions of those programs still aren't working properly under Lindows. They'll come in time, he says.
So, instead of paying $100 for a Windows upgrade that crashes occasionally, but runs everything, we can pay $100 for an OS that crashes occasionally and can't run everything.
This
I know I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me the attraction of using Linux is not having to worry AT ALL about licenseing issues. If I have to worry about how many licenses is have I might as well use windows, then the windows apps I might be using will work (as well as they can).
Honestly this is a fine achievement if it does what it says. But for $100? To run on slow machines so that companies don't have to upgrade their hardware?
/etc/printcap entry w/printtool is not helping (even w/the drivers from the HP sourceforge page).
.02
Come on.
Unless it supports things like USB for devices Linux doesn't already support, etc. I really don't see this being a viable competitor.
My main beef w/Linux at this point is that I can't sync my Casiopeia via USB cradle (I have to use the serial keyboard "cradle") which is slow and painful.
My god damn parallel printer (HP 960c) is not very well supported and making a
If Lindows will solve those problems for me I would be less weary... For $100 though? I will suffer w/my serial cradle and using WP8 (which works w/the printer just fine).
Just my worthless
There are two screenshots of Lindows in use here:
h ot s.php
http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_screens
It looks impressive to me (so far).
The current WWN is convering the progress for some new testing tools for Wine..
But what if Lindows.com already HAD those tools? They could have fixed those regressions already, and boom, you have a 'more complete' Wine.
I don't think LindowsOS running Win32 apps is all that impossible. All the parts are already there, they're just not all working at the same time.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Home users are unlikely to - most of them stick with the windows that came preinstalled & M$'s oem pricing is sufficiently good that i cant see system manufacturers changing. Not to mention all those clauses that stop them shipping non-ms OS's. After all lindows is unlikely to run games or edutainment software well.
The business community are unlikely to - why would a sysadmin decide to put his neck on the line switching 5000 systems to lindows. When one critical application doesn't work as it's meant to, it all come crashing down around him. Most sysadmins will just stick to windows even if it does cost more.
The geek community are unlikely to. For the past five years i've kept a linux machine and a windows machine and will soon be readding a mac to that collection. Bluntly windows rocks for games and multimedia - whilst i'd love to do these on linux the support just isn't there. I'll keep my linux pure and gpl'd thank you very much.
The education community might. Although schools tend to avoid anything that they dont know since they dont tend to have a dedicated sys admin to set things up (and in the uk most schools pay sooo far over the odds for computers that the price difference wouldn't care).
Universities and Colleges might jump, since art students will be able to stick with word and it of course gives tech students unix as well. However most uni's at least have some linux workstations, or windows machines with exceed and big linux servers.
Quite honestly i dont see the market for it. Although if they go bust i really hope they open their code to wine.
Ultimately microsofts approach to this problem will be obvious:
Windows costs $W
Lindows costs $L
Office costs $O
Simply create a new bundle which includes Windows and Office at a price less than $O+$L.
I always love this metaphore. And how true that describes the situation of Microsoft's customers. You keep on putting in more efforts, keep on running, but you are going nowhere.
I think this is a great idea, but the execution is flawed. I can pay less for VMWare or Win4Lin and get access to all the applications that Lindows allows, plus some that it won't. I also don't care for the fact that not only will the final product cost $100.00, but the 'preview' will as well, at least according to their website.
I understand your dependence on Interdev. Trust me I know what it is to not be able to remember all the function names. But There are up and coming IDE's that will be able to keep up with the features of Interdev. I understand that ximian is producing a .NET system for the linux systems, and ChilliSoft has had it possable to run ASP pages on linux for years now.
Microsoft coddles you, and while i'm not saying that is a bad thing, it does make you that much more dependent on them.
I used to get paid to write ASP pages. I use to use interdev, and the whole VStudio. Now I write my pages in Java, I use Eclipse, and I don't have to worry about nimda. Tomarrow, I'll be able to do the same on Lindows
Is [creating a Linux kernel module] a GPL violation?
No. Linus has allowed binary-only modules into the kernel provided they communicate with the kernel using well-defined APIs. For instance, the vmware package includes a binary-only kernel module.
If Apple can't make BASH the MacOS X command line shell (apparently they asked, RMS said no, that would be a violation)
I don't see how it would be a violation under the "mere aggregation" clause of the GPL.
Will I retire or break 10K?
There may still be a Linux market for Lindows' extensions to WINE or whatever they're building on, though. There are certainly worse ways to burn VC.
> The business community are unlikely to - why would
> a sysadmin decide to put his neck on the line
> switching 5000 systems to lindows. When one
> critical application doesn't work as it's meant
> to, it all come crashing down around him. Most
> sysadmins will just stick to windows even if it
> does cost more.
I doubt that a sysadmin would switch of his own volition (unless it was a small shop), but often these kinds of decisions are made by management. They do care about the cost of software, and if Lindows.com can market it well, they might go for it.
I agree that it will be a tough sell, though. Let's hope that the Wine project can get a lot of good code out of it...
This OS, despite the near magical quality of Windows and Linux applications on one system, looks to be a nitch OS even if it succeeds. Here's why.
In the article itself, the opinion is voiced that there are about 10 major applications that Windows users use. OK, granted. Unfortunately, what we are discussing here is an OS switch, and it's not that simple.
Linux users are quite accustomed to the notion of things like using 8 different IRC clients as the situation warrants. Windows users, on the other hand, quickly grow accustom to even the tiniest quirk of their default system. AOL can't change anything, even on their website, without causing some of their users to be unhappy about the difference.
The point is, if Lindows runs Office and a few other major apps well, that's enough for some businesses. But for home users, EVERYTHING must work as they expect from previous experience, or they won't even consider switching. If their bizarre little propritary note keeper doesn't work, no dice. They ain't movin.
Linux users, who you might think logically would be more interested, will be put off by the commercial nature of the project and are far more likely to wait for/help the wine project. Also, VMware and WinforLin allow people to run Windows programs. There's already compeition out there.
So the only conceivable mass market for this system is business. Great. Unfortunately, we all know how keen the vast majority of the business world is on switching to something different and untried. Especially if it involves retraining. Linux applications won't intice them much - there are other ways to get those, using cygwin, vnc, remote Xwindows connections, etc. Lindows does most of this, let's say. It does it a little better than the above solutions. But will it do ENOUGH better to justify businesses upgrading? Unlikely.
Don't get me wrong - I hope it succeeds. It's just going to have a heck of a time doing so.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
I forgot to mention that it'll cost you $99 for a one year membership to become a lindows.com 'insider'. Bleh .. the audacity to ask me for money before they have a product! I might have to change my mind.
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
> a) Windows is unstable. Period.
Which Windows? I know everyone loves to beat up the unreliability of the 16 bit Windows kernel, but with Windows 2000 and Windows XP it's a different story.
In a few years Microsoft won't be selling any of the Win9x series.. then the extra stability of Linux won't be such a novelty to users, and Linux folks will have to come up with a better line than a more stable kernel.
Or to say it differently, when most Windows users don't find Windows to be unstable, telling them that you've got a more stable OS isn't going to convince them.
- Steve
Assuming they are using Wine (which it would be stupid not to... ), then that would be the second closed-source fork of wine (that we know of). While neither bothers me individually, it occurs to me that there are going to be features of both proprietary forks that would benefit the other... But since those changes won't get merged back into main wine, that potential benefit is lost.
You know... I like the GPL for a reason...
The enemies of Democracy are
I hate to say it. I think competition would be GREAT on the desktop, but this won't fly.
Why? I'm a network admin and I wouldn't switch for ~$50/machine. What happens when one of our apps doesn't work? What happens when the VP of whatever gets a new widget and there is no driver? Now I'm supporting a couple of operating systems.
Also, what happens when an app is flakey. You think the vendor will support me when I'm running Lindows? Good luck! It sounds good in theory, but I just don't see it. One thing people need to realize is that the cost of software is very small compared to support and other things. Saving ~$50/machine is not a big deal. Sure, you may save a lot if you buy 10K machines at a time, but if you do you can get some good deals from other vendors as well.
I think the OpenSource community will have much better luck with a *GOOD* Office type application, not so much on the operating systems. That's where the real money is spent. Since the OS comes on the system the price of that is usually overlooked, and low enough not to matter when a $100 competitor comes out. Give me a good supported Office app for $100 and I'll switch from my $350/user app.
I heard Lindows is at least partially based on WINE.
Is Lindows just a WINE repackinging, and if not, what new code does it add that WINE does not have?
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
You missed nothing. They intend to throw a bunch of proprietary stuff on top of Linux (namely the Windows compatibility stuff and the installers) to make sure that you end up paying a $100/seat license for this. I don't know whether to cheer or jeer myself.
I guess I'll wait to hear whether they contribute money or code back to all the Free Software and Open Source projects they'll be taking advantage of in the process. I suppose they can't de-GPL anything, so that's a major plus.
The real question is, why for $100 would anyone switch off Windows for less than 100% compatibility with their Windows software? What guarantee will Lindows make that the next upgrade set from MS won't break Lindows, leaving users in the lurch with applications going stale?
I do not have a signature
Well, what it really does it is illustrate the power of open source. There was a recent study done on Debian Potato based on the amount of lines of code in it. It was estimated that commercially developing it all would have cost approximately 1.9 billion. They really aren't developing the OS, they are simply developing the translation layer.
> The real question is, why for $100 would anyone
> switch off Windows for less than 100%
> compatibility with their Windows software?
As I understand the article, Lindows(tm) will be targeted at those who want to use a core of 11 commonly used Windows applications yet don't want to upgrade to the latest versions of Windows and/or those core applications.
In essence, the target group will stand pat with their current applications and still have the ability to cash in, as it were, on the availability of alternative applications in LINUX.
As for the $100 price tag, there is a little story I would tell you.
There was a company that made excellent shoes for men out of the very best materials. They priced their shoes very low to generate demand. While they had a loyal clientbase, their profits dropped off so much, they almost went out of business.
An analysis showed that:
1. The shoes were an extremely durable product.
2. The loyal clientbase were ready and willing to pay much more for the product.
3. Some prospective new clients were put off by the low price - viewing price as a status symbol and the shoes as not a value at the low price.
The company raised prices on the shoes and immediately saw an increase in clientele and a coresponding jump in profits. The loyal clientbase continued to purchase the product and new clients viewed the product as a durable value item and a status symbol on the foot.
Now, how does that tie into your $100 dollar question? Well, we are dealing with folk who will probably be willing to foot (heh) the price because they view the product to be a value proposition. (They will eventually be forced to upgrade by Microsoft(tm).) Value in that the price is competitive with Windows, will allow them to continue using the products they already own and likey give them a bargaining chip to use against Microsoft(tm).
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
As the poster above notes, it might not be for you, but you're not this apps target audience. If you think Tex and Metafont are preferable to StarOffice or MS Office that means you.
Furthermore, there's no reason why this can't work very well. I have a nifty little program from Codeweavers called Crossover, the 1.01 version of which allows me to run Quicktime, Shockwave, Ipix, QTVR, and a bunch of other Win32 web browser plugins under Galeon (or KDE, or Skipstone, or Moz if you like web browsers to run slowly on your Athlon). The plugins work seamlessly, and running Quicktime on its own works reasonably well (one bug with minimisation seems to be the only real sticking point).
So yeah, Codeweavers can allow me to run a selection of Windows web browser lugins under Linux.
Also, Transgaming can allow me to run Alice, Tony Hawk, Return to Castle Wolfenstein (single or Multi), Sacrifice and a much of other selected Windows games under Linux
If the above two are possible, I see no reason why Lindows won't be able to make MS Office and Quicken run under Wine either. They already work 98% functionality with Wine and a lot of patience. With a cute app to remove the need to patience, and some money into going the last mile of COM and the other missing pieces, I see no reason why Lindows won't be:
a) Able to deliver what it promises
b) Worth it. Maybe....
* When that hundred buncks was *Australian* I thought it was reasonable, but they mean $US - ouch. $40-50 US would be more like it.
* I already have a Linux distribution. I want Lindows if its good. I am not going to fucking well install another OS to run it. Make Lindows an app for God's sake.