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Michael Robertson Interview about Lindows
unclegus writes "I ran across this article talking about Michael Roberston and Lindows. Says a "Sneak Preview" will be available in a few weeks. Release 1.0 will be $100 for single user ..." Dan Gillmor, the author of it, has said that it appears to be the real thing - I'll be interested in getting my hands on it.
"More choice is always better than less."
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
I get paid to write ASP pages.. there is no changing that to PHP, JSP or any other non-M$ platform. With that said, if I could run Interdev under Linux, then I would never have need for Windows again. If Lindows can do that for me, then I'll give it a shot.
With all of the current "interoperability" software available (wine etc.), I'm not convinced someone can throw together something THIS good in the time frame they seem to have done it in, but I will keep an eye on it.
Mmmm. Seems to me it would be easier to write new versions of these "10 Major programs" for linux rather than reverse engineer every Windows API. It will probably end up flaky as hell.
That's if this whole thing isn't vapor..
i hate pansy republicans
Is this (serious question) a GPL violation? If Apple can't make BASH the MacOS X command line shell (apparently they asked, RMS said no, that would be a violation), how can Lindows make Linux the kernel?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Why in gods name would someone buy this at $100 a crack ????? It isnt gooing to be ANYWHERE (Windows isnt stable you say, Ok , whatever but for running Windows apps youre going to tell me a hacked emulator is)near as stable for windows apps as windows, and the Linux stuff is going to get dragged down by bloating everything to the moon for compatibilty ???
Hell now that courts have ruled its legal to resell throw a copy of Win98 under VMWare, at least there I can run all kinds of fun stuff.
At $100 a crack I cold buy a copy of whatever windows version I wanted, you mean to tell me I should buy this monstrosity because BillG isnt getting my money ?
This seems to me (I am a 30% Windows user 70% Linux user) te be the single stupidest approach for either system.
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
From the info in the article, it seems that they are either erverse-engineering the Windows APIs, or mimicking the functionality with their own code. This is a time-consuming task.
Also, they said they are focusing on only 10 or so applications. They list Work, Excel, etc. But what about future revisions of these programs? I wonder if Ms would purposefully change them to break under Lindows, which Lindows would have to change to accomodate.
So will this become a perpetual 'chasing' game, trying to catch up to Microsoft?
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
He ran several Microsoft Office applications on his IBM ThinkPad, though some functions of those programs still aren't working properly under Lindows. They'll come in time, he says.
So, instead of paying $100 for a Windows upgrade that crashes occasionally, but runs everything, we can pay $100 for an OS that crashes occasionally and can't run everything.
This
I know I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me the attraction of using Linux is not having to worry AT ALL about licenseing issues. If I have to worry about how many licenses is have I might as well use windows, then the windows apps I might be using will work (as well as they can).
Honestly this is a fine achievement if it does what it says. But for $100? To run on slow machines so that companies don't have to upgrade their hardware?
/etc/printcap entry w/printtool is not helping (even w/the drivers from the HP sourceforge page).
.02
Come on.
Unless it supports things like USB for devices Linux doesn't already support, etc. I really don't see this being a viable competitor.
My main beef w/Linux at this point is that I can't sync my Casiopeia via USB cradle (I have to use the serial keyboard "cradle") which is slow and painful.
My god damn parallel printer (HP 960c) is not very well supported and making a
If Lindows will solve those problems for me I would be less weary... For $100 though? I will suffer w/my serial cradle and using WP8 (which works w/the printer just fine).
Just my worthless
There are two screenshots of Lindows in use here:
h ot s.php
http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_screens
It looks impressive to me (so far).
The current WWN is convering the progress for some new testing tools for Wine..
But what if Lindows.com already HAD those tools? They could have fixed those regressions already, and boom, you have a 'more complete' Wine.
I don't think LindowsOS running Win32 apps is all that impossible. All the parts are already there, they're just not all working at the same time.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Home users are unlikely to - most of them stick with the windows that came preinstalled & M$'s oem pricing is sufficiently good that i cant see system manufacturers changing. Not to mention all those clauses that stop them shipping non-ms OS's. After all lindows is unlikely to run games or edutainment software well.
The business community are unlikely to - why would a sysadmin decide to put his neck on the line switching 5000 systems to lindows. When one critical application doesn't work as it's meant to, it all come crashing down around him. Most sysadmins will just stick to windows even if it does cost more.
The geek community are unlikely to. For the past five years i've kept a linux machine and a windows machine and will soon be readding a mac to that collection. Bluntly windows rocks for games and multimedia - whilst i'd love to do these on linux the support just isn't there. I'll keep my linux pure and gpl'd thank you very much.
The education community might. Although schools tend to avoid anything that they dont know since they dont tend to have a dedicated sys admin to set things up (and in the uk most schools pay sooo far over the odds for computers that the price difference wouldn't care).
Universities and Colleges might jump, since art students will be able to stick with word and it of course gives tech students unix as well. However most uni's at least have some linux workstations, or windows machines with exceed and big linux servers.
Quite honestly i dont see the market for it. Although if they go bust i really hope they open their code to wine.
Ultimately microsofts approach to this problem will be obvious:
Windows costs $W
Lindows costs $L
Office costs $O
Simply create a new bundle which includes Windows and Office at a price less than $O+$L.
I always love this metaphore. And how true that describes the situation of Microsoft's customers. You keep on putting in more efforts, keep on running, but you are going nowhere.
I think this is a great idea, but the execution is flawed. I can pay less for VMWare or Win4Lin and get access to all the applications that Lindows allows, plus some that it won't. I also don't care for the fact that not only will the final product cost $100.00, but the 'preview' will as well, at least according to their website.
for $100, I could get MS windows and run it natively.
for FREE, I could download mandrake linux and run windows apps through wine or VMware.
What does lindows have to offer that the above don't? NOTHING.
'When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.' -HST
Is [creating a Linux kernel module] a GPL violation?
No. Linus has allowed binary-only modules into the kernel provided they communicate with the kernel using well-defined APIs. For instance, the vmware package includes a binary-only kernel module.
If Apple can't make BASH the MacOS X command line shell (apparently they asked, RMS said no, that would be a violation)
I don't see how it would be a violation under the "mere aggregation" clause of the GPL.
Will I retire or break 10K?
There may still be a Linux market for Lindows' extensions to WINE or whatever they're building on, though. There are certainly worse ways to burn VC.
So what is the big benefit of using Lindows? (Assuming it is not vaporware.)
- Not having to dual-boot?
- Price?
- Just to screw over Micro$oft?
You can get Windows cheap at several places. At the previous link Windows 2000 and Windows XP (both full version, OEM) are under $150.
As much as you may hate Windows, chances are good that Windows-based software is going to run better on Windows than Lindows. Why spend $100 on Lindows when you can get the real deal for a few bucks more?
The thing that always worried me the most about widespread linux, is hackers. With windows (safe for XP) script kiddies can DoS a machine, but they cant r00t it. Linux has some security issues, and the common user wont be upgrading and patching every time a security issue is found. Running Office applications on Linux doesn't make a user a Linux user. Imagine a world where a script kiddie can ssh to thousands of home users boxes. DDoS has suddenly a new meaning.
I know I'm going to be modded down to oblivion, but here goes nothin'...
Everything I've heard up until now has convinced me that Lindows is for sure a modified version of Wine, with some eye candy added and all this backed up by a team of PR goons.Also, not releasing the source speaks for itself...
Up until now, Lindows seemed like a good candidate for SatireWire's vaporware list, but they might have something to show after all.
Also, the price is unbelievable! Who would pay to run buggy microsoft software on an (almost certainly)buggy emulator? I'd rather buy a windows license:)
The bottom line is: instead of trying to emulate windows, try to help developing native linux applications. Like Staroffice and Gimp for starters.
> The business community are unlikely to - why would
> a sysadmin decide to put his neck on the line
> switching 5000 systems to lindows. When one
> critical application doesn't work as it's meant
> to, it all come crashing down around him. Most
> sysadmins will just stick to windows even if it
> does cost more.
I doubt that a sysadmin would switch of his own volition (unless it was a small shop), but often these kinds of decisions are made by management. They do care about the cost of software, and if Lindows.com can market it well, they might go for it.
I agree that it will be a tough sell, though. Let's hope that the Wine project can get a lot of good code out of it...
Robertson is also back in court. This time Microsoft has launched the lawyers, claiming that the name ``Lindows'' might be confused with Windows and thereby violate Microsoft's trademark.
Robertson has one word for the claim: ``absurd.''
There are thousands of computer-related products with ``Windows'' in their names, he says. Yet Microsoft has left those products unmolested.
Come on, Lindows, Windows. They are obviously trying to use the Windows name to generate intrest (and the lawsuit as well). While I don't think MS can make him change it, I do think there's not much point in denying that the name is purposly similar.
And 1000s of applications with the name "windows"??? I can't think of any, help me out??
TRoy
If Microsoft wants to get the maker of "Lindows" for infringing on the WINDOWS® trademark, the maker of "Lindows" can change the name to the Spanish word "Lindos" (meaning "pretty ones") which carries connotations of both Windows and DOS.
Will I retire or break 10K?
For those curious, you can sign up to get the sneak preview. I'm curious enough to at least see the sneak preview before I bash away like the rest of you. I'd rather be an informed basher rather than a newbie/fanboy/hax0r kind of basher that we see so much on /. :)
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
This OS, despite the near magical quality of Windows and Linux applications on one system, looks to be a nitch OS even if it succeeds. Here's why.
In the article itself, the opinion is voiced that there are about 10 major applications that Windows users use. OK, granted. Unfortunately, what we are discussing here is an OS switch, and it's not that simple.
Linux users are quite accustomed to the notion of things like using 8 different IRC clients as the situation warrants. Windows users, on the other hand, quickly grow accustom to even the tiniest quirk of their default system. AOL can't change anything, even on their website, without causing some of their users to be unhappy about the difference.
The point is, if Lindows runs Office and a few other major apps well, that's enough for some businesses. But for home users, EVERYTHING must work as they expect from previous experience, or they won't even consider switching. If their bizarre little propritary note keeper doesn't work, no dice. They ain't movin.
Linux users, who you might think logically would be more interested, will be put off by the commercial nature of the project and are far more likely to wait for/help the wine project. Also, VMware and WinforLin allow people to run Windows programs. There's already compeition out there.
So the only conceivable mass market for this system is business. Great. Unfortunately, we all know how keen the vast majority of the business world is on switching to something different and untried. Especially if it involves retraining. Linux applications won't intice them much - there are other ways to get those, using cygwin, vnc, remote Xwindows connections, etc. Lindows does most of this, let's say. It does it a little better than the above solutions. But will it do ENOUGH better to justify businesses upgrading? Unlikely.
Don't get me wrong - I hope it succeeds. It's just going to have a heck of a time doing so.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Sign up to see the sneak preview before you bash. Personally, I'm quite curious to see what it can do.
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
But here's my question... Is it going to be GPLed? I always thought that if you 'changed' Linux, you were obliged to GPL it. Here they come out, selling it for $100 for a single-user system? Granted, some people will probably buy this and love it. But, IMHO, a lot of Linux's success has been that you can get it free, in both terms of the word. Lindows might suck; it might rock. But I don't want to pay my $100 and hate it, so I'd spend a while talkign to other users, or maybe *cough* try someone else's copy *cough*. With Linux, you download it, or (legally) use someone else's disk, and if you don't like it, you delete it. If you end up liking Linux, you can put it on other computers too.
I think a lot of Linux's success has been due to it's license. Yeah, IMHO, Linux is incredibly stable and secure, but if people are too apprehensive to use it, none of that's going to matter to them. So, to sum up my ramblings... I think that, while $100 alone isn't all that bad (RedHat Pro is right around there, isn't it? It's GPL, but to buy the disk set and manuals and stuff...), the fact that it's "single user" is a bad move for them, in terms of attracting users. (Granted, being mentioned on Slashdot frequently may not hurt...)
________________________________________________
suwain_2
What this is really about is what MS basicly points out in taking Lindows to court over the name.
Take the ten applications mentioned and given enough time the GNU/linux/GPL side of the spectrum will come up with compairable products.
All Lindows really does is help the consumer who is stuck on windows to move over to linux. The the fear of moving from a product they paid for having such and such supposed support, to linux which is not the same "paid for and supported by the manufacture" type of system.....Lindows can only help.
Anyone here who wants to argue against that (knowing full well that wine also exist to base a market test against - regarding whatever success lindows has) is exposing themselves as being a potential MS cronie
(And the MS cronie tag game is on!! Only rule, when you find an MS cronie posting distortions here - point them out as being such! - Maybe slashdot could use a forth option on the pill [friend, neutral, foe] - a blue one for MS cronie tagging.)
$100 for single-user mode is kinda spendy, I
wonder if init 6 costs extra? Hope not, if
it's as ustable as windows. I'm assuming run-level
3 is also available?</joke>
Comment removed based on user account deletion
While $100 isn't much money, seriously, I still would like to try before I buy, hopefully there will be such an option. It should not take more than a week or so to get the feel of the system after all.
But. Considering that I more or less feel I must purchase another system, because dual-booting is ridicolous when trying to get something done, and I don't feel I have an option of choosing either system, $100 is a bargain. I won't get under $3-400 in parts I lack to put up the minimum system I need to run two, and that is if I use my old 14" monitor or get some kind of switch.
To be perfectly clear, I can't do without Windows, and I don't want to do without Linux (I don't actually need Linux, but it sure makes life easier to test certain stuff, and it is lots and lots more fun).
If it is any good, I would definetely try and get a copy at work too, because it would make my life a lot easier there too. Being able to use the corporate-specific applications (yeah, you know the ones) and a few of my own specials alongside with running in a *nix environment would certainly brighten up my day. The applications I use in Windows are few, but extremely necessary, some according to me, and some according to guys that don't know shit, but does pay me cash. Heh.
And yes, I do love open-source, it has saved the day for me countless times, but I also believe in making money, so I understand the guy. Just possibly, this could add to the flora of open-source programs out there, as more people would possibly be able to write stuff on a *nix environment. I don't feel that whether the OS costs money is that important. Consider it a part of your computer, much like memory chips or the motherboard. It is a natural part of the system, and some prefer Intel, while some prefer AMD or Motorola. What you run on it is more important in my opinion (and in this imperfect world I might add).
Anyone know what the upgrades will cost if you buy this first version?
How many well intentioned competitors to the MS lock-in have failed because people cling to this notion that software can become dominant in the lowest common demoninator market without charging for the development? Don't get me wrong, I'm a FreeBSD developer, and a KDE lover, but I'm not so naive to believe that it won't cost consumers a crud load of money to dig themselves out of the hole they allowed themselves to be pushed into ...
...
Get it into your heads, people! It's gunna cost us ALL (including the entire US economy, to some degree, if one really purpots that MS makes way more money than they ever deserved to) to get outta this. Much of the richness and wealth and comfort of living in the western world owes itself to the very institutions that so many people wish to dismantle
"Old man yells at systemd"
They have all major distros? You mean
The enemies of Democracy are
> a) Windows is unstable. Period.
Which Windows? I know everyone loves to beat up the unreliability of the 16 bit Windows kernel, but with Windows 2000 and Windows XP it's a different story.
In a few years Microsoft won't be selling any of the Win9x series.. then the extra stability of Linux won't be such a novelty to users, and Linux folks will have to come up with a better line than a more stable kernel.
Or to say it differently, when most Windows users don't find Windows to be unstable, telling them that you've got a more stable OS isn't going to convince them.
- Steve
You mean those bastards are warezing Debian?!
The enemies of Democracy are
I know a guy in my neighborhood who's a really good Windows/MFC programmer. He used to own his own company, Axiom Technologies, maybe you've heard of it. He sold it to some big firm somewhere so he could move his family to San Diego. That's right, he's moving his family to go work on Lindows. Somehow I doubt that this guy would be spending all his spare time learning Linux as well as he knows Windows, and moving to San Diego, to partner with a guy who has no product.
;p.
Now all I need to do is see if I can get a job with them
A solution to the problem with music today
you still have to pay for Windows to run in VMWare.
you are paying for Windows, aren't you?
Oh, look, here comes the BSA. *duck*
Assuming they are using Wine (which it would be stupid not to... ), then that would be the second closed-source fork of wine (that we know of). While neither bothers me individually, it occurs to me that there are going to be features of both proprietary forks that would benefit the other... But since those changes won't get merged back into main wine, that potential benefit is lost.
You know... I like the GPL for a reason...
The enemies of Democracy are
Who carez that Microsoft is the company you're depending on when writing ASP pages. You're depending on Sun while writing Java. That's not a problem at all. I build n-tier webapplications for a living and some layers are ASP code, others are VB/C++ code, others are T-SQL code. All microsoft. Because my customers think the same I don't have to preach to them to tell them the stuff works. The same with linux developers who work for linux-minded customers.
It's however sad to see still people think by writing ASP pages you seem to have an above average risk to catch all kinds of silly virusses: server/internet development isn't easy sometimes and you need knowledge to write and setup solid systems. That's true on all platforms.
I only use interdev for the intellisense in asp code (no other editor has that, otherwise I'd have switched already).
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
.. the next version of Office won't run on it.
Get off my virtual lawn, you damned virtual kids!
I hate to say it. I think competition would be GREAT on the desktop, but this won't fly.
Why? I'm a network admin and I wouldn't switch for ~$50/machine. What happens when one of our apps doesn't work? What happens when the VP of whatever gets a new widget and there is no driver? Now I'm supporting a couple of operating systems.
Also, what happens when an app is flakey. You think the vendor will support me when I'm running Lindows? Good luck! It sounds good in theory, but I just don't see it. One thing people need to realize is that the cost of software is very small compared to support and other things. Saving ~$50/machine is not a big deal. Sure, you may save a lot if you buy 10K machines at a time, but if you do you can get some good deals from other vendors as well.
I think the OpenSource community will have much better luck with a *GOOD* Office type application, not so much on the operating systems. That's where the real money is spent. Since the OS comes on the system the price of that is usually overlooked, and low enough not to matter when a $100 competitor comes out. Give me a good supported Office app for $100 and I'll switch from my $350/user app.
I heard Lindows is at least partially based on WINE.
Is Lindows just a WINE repackinging, and if not, what new code does it add that WINE does not have?
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
His whole point was: I'll switch to Lindows if it can run (My Favorite App)
Not: InterDev + ASP RULEZ!!!
This is a great point, especially for Win32 developers. If you can't run your Win32 development tools on Lindows, what can you run?
Lastly, I don't understand this IDE hate. What's wrong with using productive tools like integrated debuggers, color coding, code templates, etc. Are these extra features a major cause of sezuires? He finds them very useful, as do I. Why should he or anyone have to REVERT to notepad?
I can understand another editor like CodeWarrior, Emacs, etc., etc. but NOTEPAD???
Maybe we should all revert to assembler... no...no... HEX!!!
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Or to say it differently, when most Windows users don't find Windows to be unstable, telling them that you've got a more stable OS isn't going to convince them.
Exactly. And I would add:
In a few years (or right now) telling my mom that she can have Linux for free and hack network admin software sources OR pay a couple hundred (or whatever) dollars for an system that she can do what moms do, what do you think she will prefer?
What Six-pack-Joe-User cares about stability when you can't play the games? Access thousands of websites (badly done, but still...)? Runs multimedia software? (From Adobe to whatever)? Runs the latest app trend? And the list could go on...
The two most important keys to succed on the desktop is Software That People Want To Use And Good Interface.
Btw mod me down as a troll if you wish so badly.
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
Isn't Michael Robertson the same tool that founded MP3.com because he realized that MP3 was a popular search term on search engines? I guess he's picked up on the next buzzword and tried to build a business out of it.
I have a website. It's about Macs.
I really doubt that; do you have any references? More likely, Apple picked tcsh because of the BSD heritage.
I went to their website and trolled around. I couldn't find any references to what OTHER applications they run. (Besides Office)
Can anyone provides links with more info?
(i.e. Does it run Half-Life?)
Half-Life? Pfft. If Lindows is going to push for compatibility with games people love, they should focus on getting the game that vast majority of Windows users have become enthralled with. The game that's built a cult following due to it's blazing fast action and amazing eye candy. The game that so many Windows users consider the coolest, most exhilarating and most addictive game ever:
Solitaire.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
Like, will it run the RDP Terminal Server that pisses over X, VNC and seemingly everything else available for remote access in terms of speed, without the bizarre and restrictive licensing scheme.
I'd like to run Linux apps over RDP, but there doesn't seem to be an RDP server available for Linux.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
"More choice is always better than less."
That's true, and that makes sense. However, consider Microsoft making another version of Windows. Sure, now we have another Windows we can use.... but there are factors other than the availability of a new product or piece of software that affect the amount of "choice" we really have. Microsoft affects user's choice by brute force. It's not just Microsoft though... it's a common practice in the software industry. So who's to say whether this Lindows company will provide us more "choice"? In the end, they are. Also consider that Microsoft can easily break Lindows compatibility with later versions of Office and what not. They have the upper hand in that battle (bar the U.S. government's hand in the matter). I'm not saying this will not be a good thing.... just stating some thoughts, and I welcome your thoughts/counterthoughts.
Please help! I'm stuck inside my virtual reality headset!
These people seem to be thinking inside the box that says "the only way to REALLY make money in software is to sell licenses." WRONG. Software is a service! Until people get that straight, nobody's going to make much money on free software. You can't make a half-hearted attempt and expect it to fly. It's free software or die. GPL everything. Control nothing but your services. And the beauty of the model is that it fits perfectly with the OSS development community. Contributed code allows everyone to provide customers with better service.
My question is who's gonna buy Lindows. OSS meets all of mine and my organization's needs. We don't need to run expensive MS Office apps or Lotus Notes. And for those who mistakenly think they need such pricey commercial software, why would they spend another $100 to use it in emulation?
That's why M$ never changes anything, right? Sorry, but that does not hold water. I'm sitting here at a new w2k machine. There are dozens of UI changes from NT and 98. Many of the changes are on heavily used items, like find which used to be under tools and is now under a right click. So why is it that people like you never apply the same criticisms to OS from M$?
It's funny how shifing convienence is more difficult to use than a constant CLI tool. Let me tell you how frustrating it is to not be able to pull up a command prompt and get the same find tool I've been using for the last four years under Linux.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You missed nothing. They intend to throw a bunch of proprietary stuff on top of Linux (namely the Windows compatibility stuff and the installers) to make sure that you end up paying a $100/seat license for this. I don't know whether to cheer or jeer myself.
I guess I'll wait to hear whether they contribute money or code back to all the Free Software and Open Source projects they'll be taking advantage of in the process. I suppose they can't de-GPL anything, so that's a major plus.
The real question is, why for $100 would anyone switch off Windows for less than 100% compatibility with their Windows software? What guarantee will Lindows make that the next upgrade set from MS won't break Lindows, leaving users in the lurch with applications going stale?
I do not have a signature
Last time I checked, free is better than not free.
These Lintel guys are opportunists who are not interested in improving Linux or giving back to the community that wrote 99.99% of what they're about to sell. I can't say I wish them well. I only hope for a "deathbed conversion" in which, upon going bankrupt, they release their code. But I wouldn't count on it... as long as MS is willing to offer them $500 for it, we can be almost certain that we'll never see a line of it.
Let me elaborate what I meant. I know, obviously, that the US economy can run without a large company called "Microsoft".
:)
However, I also know that the economy seems to be in the shitter right now, and that MS went 10 years without so much as a profit warning. Dismantle MS tommorow, and the economy plummets, I think. I'm talking short term here. If, over time, people just switch to Lindows, we're all good. Thus, even if tommorow, I had a fully complient OS that 'replaced' Windows, for free, while keeping application compatibility, that there would be powerful forces still at work, not just IN MS, trying to keep people keeping that company strong.
It was less to do with saying that the US economy cannot run with Bill Gates, the man, but rather that the 'Dont Switch Horses In the Middle of the Stream' mentality is a very powerful force in times of economic downturn, regardless of what that horse is doing. Is that better?
If it makes you feel any better, I also know that the Earth can survive without Humans, but really, you can get so macro that you might as well not have a point.
As it relates to the original post, I'm saying that you cannot downplay the element of entrenchment, both technologically AND economically. Product A may be superior to product B, but if a capitalist economy senses (through social patterns here, not on individual basis') that it may hurt our standard of living to make the switch, product B will continue to dominate. What's the use in switching to a superior os if it means many people will end up not being able to afford computers? Now, of course, you can disagree with this analysis, but I think you will always approach an adoption time frame given new technologies that will do more damage than good for many reasons - one being economically.
"Old man yells at systemd"
I am thinking a bit possitive about this for 1 reason. Michael Robertson did some neat things with mp3.com (before the bullies got to him) I think the idea of being able to purchase a CD online -- and then listen to all mp3's of that CD instantlly was a brilliant idea. So I will give him some credit. What is funny -- is that 1 1/2 years ago -- many of us NON-Windows users would have given some random left extremity in order to be able to run the latest version of IE on Linux. Now -- with a lot of money, blood, sweat and tears from the likes of Mozilla, Opera, Konq. -- et. all. Having IE on Linux now would really be no big deal. I think native Linux apps (ported or original) are more important and long term than the voodoo ideas of emulation, API manipulation, and smoke and mirrors. I may very well donate the hundred bucks to people working on KDE or such (Linux desktop apps that rise above hobbyist status and can compete at any level)-- rather than send $100 in Mike's direction.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Basically, all that money that MS is responsible for pushing around in the economy has to be replaced by something.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Linux is a multiuser OS. Are the Lindows people going to bill me for every user account I create? The multiuser power is right up there with not worrying about licenses and all the other blessings of freedom. Being able to share my computers with other people and myself is important to me.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Well, for an operating system costing as much as MS-Windows and pretending to be a competitor, I see a couple of problems.
First of all, I don't know which problems can be with the GNU-GPL license of Linux. If they don't include any kind of non-distributable code, then it might be distributed with PC-World or similar (as they do with other Linux distributions). In this case, perhaps they won't earn so much money as they thought (look Corel LinuxOS).
And second and most important, his argument for catching people to use Lindows instead of Windows is stability to run the 10 most used apps (Word, Excel, etc), which are mostly by Microsoft as well. What will the result be? As happened when a lot of other DOSes appeared, MS will just create new AARDs for Office, so that it only runs on Windows. And that's the end of the story.
I think they should try and encourage the use of other office suites, as KOffice, or better, StarOffice, as there won't be such problem with this packages.
A FreeDOS user and developer,
Aitor
Well, what it really does it is illustrate the power of open source. There was a recent study done on Debian Potato based on the amount of lines of code in it. It was estimated that commercially developing it all would have cost approximately 1.9 billion. They really aren't developing the OS, they are simply developing the translation layer.
...and last time i checked service is better than no service. And please don't say that my family will be able to get on IRC and get help there. Usability is much more important than $50-100.
Also, you need to take a look at where Linux is selling and where it's not. 1/4 of all new servers last year shipped with Linux preinstalled. Redhat, by far the most succesful Linux distributor, focuses almost exclusively on high-end corporate sales, as do most others who are doing well. I'm sorry to say this, but your piddly Windows XP Home Edition "stability" does not count for squat in the eyes of any CIO. Hardware demands, throughput, speed, requisite stability -- the bar is set so much higher in a typical business environment than you, as a home user, could possibly fathom. It's estimated that eBay lost close to $10 million in cash when it went down for 22 hours last year. Would you bet $10 million dollars of your money on the stability of Windows XP? That's the level of assurance we're talking about here. And in this arena (at least from what I hear and read) the NT 5.0 kernel still can't hack it. Don't take my word for it, do a google search for "Active Directory Server stability" and see what comes up. So I would object when you say that "Linux vendors will have to come up with something better than stability to sell their distros." Perhaps in the home market this is true. But it's clear that, at least for the time being, any Linux vendor worth their salt isn't targeting just the home market. Even Mandrake.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
> The real question is, why for $100 would anyone
> switch off Windows for less than 100%
> compatibility with their Windows software?
As I understand the article, Lindows(tm) will be targeted at those who want to use a core of 11 commonly used Windows applications yet don't want to upgrade to the latest versions of Windows and/or those core applications.
In essence, the target group will stand pat with their current applications and still have the ability to cash in, as it were, on the availability of alternative applications in LINUX.
As for the $100 price tag, there is a little story I would tell you.
There was a company that made excellent shoes for men out of the very best materials. They priced their shoes very low to generate demand. While they had a loyal clientbase, their profits dropped off so much, they almost went out of business.
An analysis showed that:
1. The shoes were an extremely durable product.
2. The loyal clientbase were ready and willing to pay much more for the product.
3. Some prospective new clients were put off by the low price - viewing price as a status symbol and the shoes as not a value at the low price.
The company raised prices on the shoes and immediately saw an increase in clientele and a coresponding jump in profits. The loyal clientbase continued to purchase the product and new clients viewed the product as a durable value item and a status symbol on the foot.
Now, how does that tie into your $100 dollar question? Well, we are dealing with folk who will probably be willing to foot (heh) the price because they view the product to be a value proposition. (They will eventually be forced to upgrade by Microsoft(tm).) Value in that the price is competitive with Windows, will allow them to continue using the products they already own and likey give them a bargaining chip to use against Microsoft(tm).
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
As the poster above notes, it might not be for you, but you're not this apps target audience. If you think Tex and Metafont are preferable to StarOffice or MS Office that means you.
Furthermore, there's no reason why this can't work very well. I have a nifty little program from Codeweavers called Crossover, the 1.01 version of which allows me to run Quicktime, Shockwave, Ipix, QTVR, and a bunch of other Win32 web browser plugins under Galeon (or KDE, or Skipstone, or Moz if you like web browsers to run slowly on your Athlon). The plugins work seamlessly, and running Quicktime on its own works reasonably well (one bug with minimisation seems to be the only real sticking point).
So yeah, Codeweavers can allow me to run a selection of Windows web browser lugins under Linux.
Also, Transgaming can allow me to run Alice, Tony Hawk, Return to Castle Wolfenstein (single or Multi), Sacrifice and a much of other selected Windows games under Linux
If the above two are possible, I see no reason why Lindows won't be able to make MS Office and Quicken run under Wine either. They already work 98% functionality with Wine and a lot of patience. With a cute app to remove the need to patience, and some money into going the last mile of COM and the other missing pieces, I see no reason why Lindows won't be:
a) Able to deliver what it promises
b) Worth it. Maybe....
* When that hundred buncks was *Australian* I thought it was reasonable, but they mean $US - ouch. $40-50 US would be more like it.
* I already have a Linux distribution. I want Lindows if its good. I am not going to fucking well install another OS to run it. Make Lindows an app for God's sake.
I know I can't speak for anyone else here, but for me the attraction of using Linux is not having to worry AT ALL about licenseing issues.
Fair enough. Personally, I just want something that works. So do most people I think.
Sometimes Linux is the best tool for the job. Sometimes Windows is. This has the potential to make Linux more often the best tool for the job.
Works for me.
My main beef w/Linux at this point is that I can't sync my Casiopeia via USB cradle (I have to use the serial keyboard "cradle") which is slow and painful.
/etc/printcap entry w/printtool is not helping (even w/the drivers from the HP sourceforge page).
My god damn parallel printer (HP 960c) is not very well supported and making a
VMWare 3 has a lot of new abilities in terms of getting stuff like your digital camera to work, and probably your printer too. It should solve your problem.
And in this arena (at least from what I hear and read) the NT 5.0 kernel still can't hack it. Don't take my word for it, do a google search for "Active Directory Server stability" and see what comes up.
The most noteable problems with Active Directory have absolutely nothing to do with the NT5 kernel. They are problems with Active Directory itself. And I don't know what you've been reading, but I'd like to see it myself. Having done a lot of development on Win2K, my opinion--based on experience and not just what I've heard or read-- is that the NT5 kernel can hack it.
And lastly, remember that this entire story is about a product aimed at desktops. You go off on this tangent about Linux on servers, but that isn't what anyone is talking about. We're talking about Linux on desktops, which is an entirely different ballgame.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
Exactly. Switch to friend mode. ;)
"Old man yells at systemd"
You like the GPL for the wrong reason... chances are that if they coludn't fork wine like that they wouldn't invest the money required for their proprietary additions, so they and their product simply wouldn't exist. By definition then, a potential benefit (to those that might have a use for their product) would have been lost.
Anyway, I am sure that at some point they will release part if not all of their proprietary additions simply because maintaining a fork of such a complex software is quite expensive, and once their proprietary additions don't give them a commercial advantage (ie, when they developed some OTHER prporietary additions) it would serve them well to donate them. This scenario happened so many times in the past, ie with BSD, people should have noticed the pattern.
Whatever dude, when I run Linux, I run Debian. Debian will be here as long as Linux is.
thanks for the info man. I went and got CUPS and I have it working beautifully and even over Samba :)
My girlfriend will be very happy that she no longer will have to unplug it from my desktop and plug it into the laptop to print.
Thanks again.
Why would anyone pay for bottled water when you can get water for free? Free is better than not free isn't it?
Have you tried running Interdev under Wine? The list of Wine-compatible apps seems to grow daily. It's not at all clear how Lindows is superior to Linux with Wine -- or even if the software is different.