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Driver's Licenses to Become National ID Cards
XorNand writes: "Time is reporting that the Dept of Transportation, acting on instructions from Congress, is in the process of linking together states' drivers' license databases. They figure that it'll be cheaper and easier to slip under the radar of civil libertarians and privacy watchdogs. Wonder if Larry is a bit peeved that he's not getting his cut?"
In MO (and probably most states) you can opt out of having your SSN (Social Secutiry Number) from being your DL number. What if these states overlap (ie I have 666 as my ID from MO and you have 666 from IL)? Wonder who will have to pay to correct this little oversite? This is just one thing off the top of my head...
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
I don't know very many places that don't require a driver's license as the standard form of identification. State sponsored photo ID's are basically the only form of ID that is accepted everywhere (i.e. using personal checks at stores, getting into nightclubs, etc). Making em national isn't going to be much of a change, except for 2 things. 1) Your less likely to be thrown out of a club in another state for having an ID they don't recognize, and 2) You can't get away with speeding in another state quite as easily, because now the state trooper has access to ALL the state databases :)
I am !amused.
specifically:
10th Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
You have been a number for years. Now it's overt. The technology has made invasion cheap, we can fight it or roll over. Any ideas on how to fight?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This is true - states can choose to play ball, or not to.
For example, the Feds decided that they'd like the national speed limit to be 55 mph back in the seventies(?).
They couldn't mandate the speed limit on the interstates, but -could- withhold federal highway funds from states that elected not to enact the limits.
So you're correct when you say that the Feds don't have the power to mandate this - but they carry a pretty big financial stick to persuade states to play ball.
In Texas it's not that you have to carry around an ID at all times although many cops interpret it that way. The exact statute states that you must identify yourself to a police officer when requested. Simply telling the policifer your name will suffice.
You can't copyright facts. One of the necessary qualifications for copyrightable material is that it be "original", and facts fail this test. For example, if you copyright a map (of a real place, that is), it covers the coloring, symbols, etc., but not the actual factual meaning of the map (locations of things).
This was the subject of a lawsuit over phone books. One phone book produced sued another for copying the contents of the book, claiming copyright infringement. The court dismissed the suit, saying that the names and numbers in a phone book are factual in nature, and thus not copyrightable. If there were some novelty to the ordering, organization, or selection of the names -- some piece of "original" work -- then it would be copyrightable. But alphabetic ordering certainly fails this test.
Your name, address and personal data are all factual. So your idea doesn't really work. Cute, though.
I'll point out one of the biggest:
The standardized databases would save the California state trooper a phone call to Atlanta; he'd be able to run a nationwide check from his car.
Everyone familiar with law enforcement will laugh at this statement. Officers and dispatchers do this now, via NCIC (National Crime Information Center). It's been years since there was a need for a "phone call to Atlanta."
All that is needed to find the drivers license of anyone is the DL number or name and date of birth. These can be used to run nationwide checks to locate the record. To find a drivers license issued out of the country, a request is made to US Customs and/or Interpol.
Here is an interesting idea that some people have on how to stop people from getting real licenses by forging SS cards and birth certificates. They suggest that when you go to get a license, the DMV will query other agency and commercial databases and present you with challenge questions that make you prove your identity. The financial industry is already doing this. I know when I requested my credit report online, I had to answer a bunch of multiple choice questions like "What is the monthly payment for your auto loan with Chase bank?" before they would authenticate me. States could make you answer questions correctly on things like your tax refund, driving history, etc. to prove you are who you say you are.
Sounds like it would be more secure than the current methods but it does create a huge Big Brother infrastructure by linking all of those databases. Also, I know how hard it was to get an error on my credit report erased. I imagine maintaining the integrity of this would be a mess. Still, the concept is interesting.
When violence rules the world outside / And the headlines make me want to cry / It's not the time to just keep quiet
I recently got my drivers license. In the process of doing so, I was told that someone in Alabama with the same name birthdate as myself had multiple DUI convictions. So it seems this information is already national available to government agencies. I don't think we need to be really worried until they start talking about tying it to biometrics or something ridiculous like that. I mean, its worrisome, but only to the extent that systems like this have been worrisome since their introductions in the previous century. Not a new, or necessarily worse, problem.
As though no one possessing a valid ID has ever committed a terrorist attack...
"(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
Most (all?) states will issue non-drivers a state ID card, typically through the same agency that issues driver's licenses.
Essentially it's the same as a driver's license except it doesn't license you to drive. Use it to prove your identity, residency, and age, buy booze, cash checks, etc.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
The states drivers records databases are collected into a central commerical database already for the purposes of (1) driver insurance (2) car rental screening (3) job application screening (integrity) and (4) general credit screening.
In CA, if you cannot produce identification you can be arrested and held until they figure out who you are.
Luckily I have left CA and I am screwing up WA now with my other Angelino refugees. I don't think that is the law here but I honestly don't know for sure.
All German citizens are required to have a national ID card. The card is about the same size as a passport (see below for why). It has a photo, place of birth, ID number (which is not the Social Security number -- since the national ID has its own number, there is no need for using the pension fund number for everything as in the US), physical description and city/state of current residency.
The ID card also is used in the German passport (which is why the size is what it is), thus killing two birds with one stone.
The card must be renewed every few years, with a new photo and so on; any time you move, you must also get a new card or have the current one updated with the new place of residency. You have to show proof of residency -- a rental contract, a lease or a deed for land, for example. (Foreigners have to do a lot more -- proof of right to work, proof of employment or place of study, proof of income, statement of renouncing of rights to social services, no prior criminal record, in some cases an affidavit from a German sponsor, etc.)
The thing is, the whole infrastructure of making this work is missing in the US. Not only is there a lack of legislation regulating the use and defining abuse of the ID card (privacy is actually strictly protected in Germany, at least against private individuals), but a lack of people to manage that information.
Every German city and county (Landkreis or Gemeinde) has a residency office, or Einwohnermeldeamt, where all residents (citizens and foreigners) are required to register (and unregister if you move), along with showing documentation for previous places of residency, next of kin and so on. It is a serious offense to lie on any of those forms or to have a false ID; it is a minor offense to not carry an ID at all times (driver's license doesn't count).
Because the national ID is not directly linked to the retirement system (or anything else), there is a greatly reduced danger of identity theft WRT the pension or health insurance system. (Cashing checks almost never happens in Germany -- checks are rarely used -- and for an ID at the bank, you use your bank card anyway.)
The information stored is decentralized -- meaning, while the authorities can quickly access it if need be, it's not all in one spot waiting to be abused; and no one but the government and the inidividual may access that individual's information. Anyone caught trying to misuse or hand over that information to third parties is in deep doo-doo.
What I want to know is, why not have such a system in the States, rather than this half-arsed idea with driver's licenses? As many have pointed out already, it's vastly open to abuse or chaos and won't do a thing to identify people out-of-state...
Anyway...
Cheers,
Ethelred
Everyone wants to be Ethelred. Even I want to be Ethelred.
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
They did pass a law like this at one time, but it was ruled unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court under Brown v. Texas in 1979.
On the grounds of the 4th Amendment, you may not be punished for refusing to identify yourself, unless they have reasonable suspicion that you engaged in criminal conduct. So if you're stopped for a traffic violation, you do have to identify yourself if requested.
I don't know what kind of cop you were talking to, but you don't need a piece of paper to prove your identification. Stating your name and a way for them to check is just fine.
Either that, or your part of Oregon is different than my part of Oregon.
They CAN detain you, if they have probable cause, and hold you until they figure out who you are. That is NOT the same as an arrest, and you MUST be released in a certain amount of time, unless you give them good reason to not.
For those interested, the Oregon Revised Statutes are located here.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
The more and more I search, the more it looks like at least in VA, this could be somewhat illegal.
The Virginia ID card and drivers license form state:
The information provided on this application is for DMV's record-keeping purposes and may be disseminated in accordance with 46.2-345.
46.2-345 states:
G. Any personal information, as identified in 2.2-3801, which is retained by the Department from an application for the issuance of a special identification card is confidential and shall not be divulged to any person, association, corporation, or organization, public or private, except to the legal guardian or the attorney of the applicant or to a person, association, corporation, or organization nominated in writing by the applicant, his legal guardian, or his attorney. This subsection shall not prevent the Department from furnishing the application or any information thereon to any law-enforcement agency.
The Department of Transportation is NOT considered a law enforcement agency, is it?. I'm sure this can seen differently by others.
If your VA license number is your SSN, it probably violates other information reporting laws also.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
Not innocent until proven guilty anymore I'm afraid. My little brother was arrested, thrown in prison for a weekend, and now has to go to "therepy" where doctor patient confidentiality has been thown out the window because the state needs to know, "why he did it, and if if he'll do it again."
He has yet to go to trial, where is his innocence before proof of guilt?
--Nuintari
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