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VeriSign/NSI Proposes Domain Name Wait Listing Service
David Harris writes: "Newsbytes and the folks over at DotcomScoop.com have good stories about VeriSign's proposal to start a "Wait Listing Service" (WLS) that would allow consumers to buy domain names before they expire. As with anything that has to do with VeriSign/Network Solutions the "WLS" ain't all it cracked up to be and there is opposition from the ICANN community. I'm not sure I like the idea of auctioning off domains before they expire either." CD: To quote Don Marti: "DNS is a consensus reality."
..."Wait Listing Service" (WLS) that would allow consumers to buy domain names before they expire. As with anything that has to do with VeriSign/Network Solutions the "WLS" ain't all it cracked up to be and there is opposition from the ICANN community. I'm not sure I like the idea of auctioning off domains before they expire either.
A good friend of mine is interested in using a name which has expired for allmost a year now. The previous owner has no interest anymore.
Verisign tells my friend he should ask the previous owner to use the transfer documents to transfer the domain to my friend. However, the previous owner does noet want to put any effort at all into it. "I am just not interested as to what happens to the name. That is why I let it expire. If you get it -ok with me. If not - ok with me." Now my friend is stuck. One wonders how they will handle names that did not even expire yet.
Right now, a lot of people are already complaining about the expired domains with NSI being released at an un-timely fashion. Domains are released anywhere from 9 to 15 weeks and without consistency. Think about the frustration for domain to be released while knowing that it has already expired....
Would this be a way for them to "selectively" release expired domain earlier?
New footnote at the bottom of your city's homepage:
Be ready for hot teens in six months at www.CITYNAME.gov!!!
Great idea! Sounds like another way to get money out of domain name holders.
Get your Unix fortune now!
If you are auctioning off the names, what is stopping the looser of such an auction from contacting the holder of an address, buy it directly and renew it, paying a nominal fee?
The article itself does not mention auctions, maybe the poster is jumping to conclutions. This scheme seems to involve not notifying the holders of a domain that they controll something valuable.
I'm really not sure how many active users Slashdot has, but if we all donated a few bucks, think we could bid for some big domain names?
I think it'd be interesting to see a bid from Slashdot on Microsoft.com, in 10 years it could be an open source page; directing users to the new Microsoft Home: www.geocities.com/microsoft.
We could also buy some other big ones, including AOL or Time. Just think of the amazing site traffic you'd get on whitehouse.gov, assuming Bush neglected everything important (like he always does) and forgot to tell someone to renew his Verisign lease.
Or maybe... just maybe... Anyone want to start a paypal to buy slashdot.org with me? If you still want to read the news, we'll provide a link to their new homepage, whichever company they decide to bid for.
Verisign is making money off an option that it may not even be possible to exercise! In their proposal, they plan to take the $40 to waitlist a .com regardless of whether or not the name becomes free. So, for instance, they'll happily sell you on to the waitlist for "ibm.com", even though you have no expectation of the name ever lapsing.
It's something that would make stock brokers proud. It's an option that can never be exercised in many cases, yet Verisign would collect full face value. And that face value of $40 is way more than the $6 they get for actually registering a new name.
I guess the theory is that "someone else bought it before, so you should pay us a lot for it this time around." Are there no limits to the intenet-ridiculous?
What we really need is an alternative DNS for those of us that know what we are doing.
Sure, most people would never be able to get at our web sites or send us email, only those who knew enough to use an alternative DNS but that's almost certainly not a bad thing. Keep out most of the idiots and most of the spam.
I'm amazed nobody has done this already. Or did I just miss it?
Sig is taking a break!
I never understood this either. I was looking for a potential name for an idea I had (This must be a sign of the "New Economy": Working out the name of your business based on whether the domain name for it is available :) ). Anyway, one of the names I checked had expired 2-Feb-2000 (this was only a week ago I was checking), and yet all the details were still there in WHOIS and the name still resolves to an IP using DNS. In fact, the last updated date was 13-Nov-2001, about a year and half after expiry!
:)
So it's expired but the owner can still use it because it still resolves? What's up with that? And especially if you're saying the owner needs to transfer it to you even if it's expired, seems to imply that they can keep the expired domain as long as they want.
This is a computerised system, it should be that as soon as it hits the expiry date (maybe +1 week at the most incase there is a delay in payment) the domain is deregistered and removed from whois, and available free for all again.
End Rant.
Since you can transfer names between registrars, what happens if someone decides to buy one in this when someone else is legitimately trying to get it but doesn't want to use Verisign/NSI (V/NSI)?
This also sounds a bit like it is aimed for those same who would try to sue anyone with a domain name containing even the same letters or digits as their trademark (even though there are only 36 of them total). Now, if you fail to renew on time, will they be able to grab your domain from under you, or will there be a "cooling off" period for domains before they can be taken over by the person purchasing them in this auction?
I am sure these are only the tip of the iceberg, once this policy is considered. It seems to me that such a policy would require the application of thought, logic, and common sense, to try to minimize problems should it be implemented. (I know-my experience leads me to believe that such won't be applied either.)
you mean like this?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Well, this seems pretty stupid. I mean, Why not just have the people get in contact with those who already own the domain? If I wanted a domain that seemed to be out of use and someone was ahead of me in 'line' what's stopping me from just getting in contact with the person who owns the domain and buying it? Or will NetSol (the brand still used for name sales) put some weird shit in their contract saying you can't sell the domain if someone is on the wait list?
Talk about lameness. Why did the government have to sell the DNS system to these losers?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
A waiting list for blah.com. :)
So if I add my name to the waiting list for Microsoft.com do I get it after the current expiry? Now there's a pr0n URL
Last I saw networksolutions were offering a 'automatic grabbing' service which you paid your money for, and if they didn't reregister in time it did it for you automatically.
Just so you can try and steal someones domain (this is linked off network solutions). I don't really see how a waiting list is any different, and I also reckon it's a really daft idea.
Then again, NSI (sorry, verisign) do have some decidedly dodgy practices regarding domain names. Like auctioning (not going back into the $35 pool or whatever the cost is) old domain names on "Great Domains"
Or charging a 'preference' rate to get a domain transfer request actioned in 2 days rather than 6 weeks.
Looks like yet another extortion tactic by the domain monopoly.
Why don't we come up with a nice peer to peer system that does everything that DNS does and more?
It could even run in parallel with the existing domain name servers. If it turned out to be better then it will eventually superceed the existing system.
We need to get out from under this obsenity that is the monopoly on domain names. Doesn't it worry anyone else that what is essentially an extension of the US government runs the DNS system? I bet the NSA maintains the root DNS servers as part of the Echelon program and monitors exactly who is asking for what domain names.
It may even be possible to use this new system to make new kinds of peer to peer file systems scale to any size.
Hmm. Does anyone remember this story, about how NSI holds expired domain names? I guess we are seeing the resolution of that. They really have no right to auction off domain names before they expire. This is just another example of them abusing their control of the DNS registries (in addition to things such as taking a large commission out of every domain name sale, so that even if you register with their competitors they gain money).
Someone really should do something. Too bad ICANN can't do anything. Maybe they could, but I don't see the old members giving up their spots to the elected anytime soon. Plus, NSI could "accidentally" cause down time if they tried to move the DNS registries. Unfortunately though, there are no feasable alternates.
"I have not failed. I've simply found 10,000 ways that won't work." --Thomas Edison
That's funny, considering that Verisign won't let you transfer domains after they expire. I suspect if the original owner tried to, they would tell him he needs to renew with them first, so they can get an extra $70 for doing nothing. They tried to do it to me, but I said fsck that. Now my previous domain is owned by a porn site operator who re-registered it with another registrar before I could. That's where the domain your friend wants will probably end up too.
They'll use a Sales Contract. They're binding, ya know.
Too big to fail? Does that make me to small to succeed?
We are ALL collectively being screwed by NSI and we need to recognize and put a stop to this. Slowly they've been implementing changes that do nothing but erode our rights in order to increase their corporate profits and protect what little monopoly they have left.
First they started holding onto domain names that have expired. Then they implemented a system that makes it really tough for someone to transfer their domain name to another registrar. Now this.
Let me tell you what NSI is REALLY up to.
They've had the lionshare of domain name registrations since the beginning of the internet. So it's of no surprise that they have the largest pool of expired names. NSI holds on to every single one of them. Thousands, perhaps millions. They pay $0 to hold on to those names.
Now they start auctioning off these names. They've turned into nothing more than the world's largest CYBER-SQUATTER!
Let me make another prediction. If this change is allowed to go through, next they'll be saying, "if you win a name by auction for say $10,000, then from that point on every year you will have to pay $10,000 to renew that domain name, and you won't be allowed to change registrars either!"
It's time for the government to castrated NSI/Verisign.
eTrade SUCKS
It seems there is a problem to be solved here: at the moment there is no process for registering for soon-to-expire domains.
Verisign have been granted a monopoly from ICANN to handle the registration process. However, this proposed system is clearly extending this monopoly from the registration of new domains (via registrars) to a pre-registration phase.
This must be a matter that ICANN should take responsibility for. The way to allow pre-registration should be defined, and explicitly included in any registry agreement - if the only sensible way to approach it is to allow Verisign a monopoly then it should be regulated accordingly (i.e. $46 is way too much to be allowed). Apart from anything else, it would be nice to have a standard process for all TLDs (.com/.uk/.whatever).
They'll use a Sales Contract. They're binding, ya know.
Wanna buy a piece of land on Ganymed?
Don't think that is impossible.
So the Q: what can they really put in their contract? What do V really deliver?
You know, I've had my eye on my neighbor's car for some time now... maybe I should put myself on the DMV's waitlist so I can snatch it from him when he's late in renewing his registration. I'd better start saving now, though, because I saw the old lady across the street checking it out today.
I hope this isn't redundant, but wouldn't this mean that domain owners would have to re-register their domains several times a day to make sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands when it expires? (ie, the domain expires every minute of every day since anyone can come along and buy it just like that)
Or people would be forced to register domains for 50 years and on? In that case it would cause an even bigger lack of available domain names than there already is.
/penhead
I've been looking at a few domain names held by network solutions for almost three months now. They expired three months ago and are still not available.
Oddly enough, the owner of the *expired* name is willing to sell it. Net. Sol. is the most expensive registrar out there, with the worst agreement contract. The system is seriously broke. The only solution I can think of is government action, but I can't see the current Bush administration doing anything. I hold out some hope that maybe some technocrats in Europe will pick up and run with this travesty.
evanchik.net
I wouldn't mind paying some amount of money to pre-register a domain which I expected to expire for some reason. But such a scheme would be dependent upon Verisign to keep my interest confidential from the current owner.
Much more eloquent things said Rob Pike and Peter Weinberger.
Also, SDSI by Ron Rivest and Butler Lampson touches on the same territory.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
January 2002
- My domain name expires in 6 months.
- My neighbor wants my domain name, so he pays NetSol $50 to be waitlisted.
June 2002- I log on to netsol.com and renew my domain for another year.
- NetSol takes my renewal money and keeps some or all of my neighbor's money.
- My neighbor is SOL (but he'll get another chance next year!).
IIRC from the college entrance experience, "waitlisted" is not a guarantee. It's a "we'll see." It sounds like NetSol is forming an online gambling institution: people pay NetSol for the right to purchase a domain name in the event that the current doesn't renew.That's like going to the only real estate agent in town and giving him money to guarantee you your neighbor's house in the event that your neighbor decides to sell. In fact, you have to do that this becomes the only way you can buy an existing house in town because if you don't someone else will.
:::GASP:::
Could the proverbial "abuse of absolute power" we've all heard about in fables but never seen with our own eyes?
I think there's a way around this. Contact the owner of the domain you want and ask if he's going to renew. If he's not going to, offer to buy it from him for half of what NetSol would charge for the waitlist fee. That way you save money, the person who was dropping the domain makes some money, and NetSol doesn't get anything it hasn't earned.
Well, bang routing is fine for a few hundred or thousand hosts, but doesn't really scale to hundreds of millions of hosts. And unlike dns can't cope with any of the route changing.
On the other hand, the article you mention SDSI looks really interesting. I've only looked at it quickly, but it does look like a good way to organise what is essentially a peer to peer replacement for dns, but which can incorporate dns too.
Sig is taking a break!
Now the jokers will have a real incentive, having paid cash for something they haven't gotten!
This will only escalate fraud!
A message from our sponsor
The entire concept is absolutely absurd.
Such a product (I'm uncomfortable calling it a 'feature') would encourage domain squatting and further pollute the available namespace.
However, I'm not oblivious to the fact that it would be profitable for registrars that are involved. I miss the days of the non-profit Internic. With all of the 'progress,' I don't really see a single thing that's better about root management and domain registration today than it was in, say, 1994. In 8 years, all that we've done is create a handful of useless companies and waste a significant amount of money. That's without even mentioning the countless leeches (domain squatters) that are encouraged by this system.
This is the wrong step to take for Internet DNS. Luckily, this is only a proposal and thus not much should be made of it. I'd be quite shocked if this made it much further, especially in the state that it's in.
Cheers.
If you don't know about Snapnames, read about it here, but essentially it's a back-ordering service.
NSI are actually a Snapnames affiliate, so they get $7 per back-ordered name through their site. I guess they want the rest of the money too.
Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
You think 3 months is bad... I'm looking at two domain names. One expired Aug 30, 2001. The other expired Jan 10, 2001, over a year now. I tried talking to a rep in their little live java chat and to someone on the phone. All they tell me is the domains are on registrar hold, but I know that already. When I ask when they'll be released or why it's taking so long, they tell me they both can't and won't tell me why, not even when I'm holding credit card in hand.
I've noticed that some domains I had with register.com that I let expire were gone in a couple days from WHOIS, yet ones registered by netsol continue to linger. I'm not the least bit curious why netsol is the largest holder of domains... they don't ever remove them!
I hate to disagree but I cannot see any reason for a "pre-registration" process. NSI^H^H^HNetSol^H^H^H^H^H^HVerisign should simply be forced to release domain names on a known schedule (i.e. 0/5 days after expiration, preferably at the original time of registration). Then everyone can jump in and try to buy it first :-) As long as their is no systemic preference for who will get any domain (like people who pay the extra to go through the worst registrar should not be able to purchase first) this system would be fine.
As for having a standard process across all TLDs, you are living in a wildly optimistic dreamland, but that's ok with me, I'd rather let some TLDs make their own bizarre rules than have one set of rules created by one global devil.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
The main reason why this would probably work is the fact that this is to scare the s*** out of current domain name owners, let me explain.
Let's say you are the owner of Slashdot.org, you surely don't want someone to "steal" your domain if you have forgot to renew your domain. Remember they've just have an option to register the domain for 10 years? Seeing next to no one is going for that (god knows what happens to the net in 10 years). With ths waitlist thing, more people would probably go for a longer registratoin period because they don't want to lose their domain name.
kawai
I would like to offer a bit of perspective on why Verisign is doing this. First it is important to note that it is Verisign GRS (the registry) which is considering this and not Network Solutions (the Verisign Registrar). Currently when a name expires it is up to each registrar to determine what happens to that name. When a domain expires it is actually automatically renewed by the registry. It is then up to the registrar to decide if the name should be deleted permanently. The registrar has up to 45 days to make that decision before the 1 year renewal fee is permanent.
Now, Verisign the Registrar releases a lot of domains to the public right now after a certain period of time. At this time the names are released and numerous registrars attempt to snag those names when they are dropped. This practice has caused headaches to no end at Verisign the Registry. It essentially acts as a denial of service attack as all the different registrars pound the registry trying to snatch those dropped names. Were talking hundreds of thousands of queries every minute.
This new propsed system is a response to this situation. It is designed to end the constant pounding of the registry. Granted it may not be the best solution but it is only the first draft and it must be okayed by ICANN first, thus there is a strong possibility that it will not be implemented. However something is needed in order to make the domain deletion process less system intensive as the registry cannot continue to support the amount of traffic caused by these domains dropping.
I don't even understand how this would work. It seems to indicate that they would be trying to sell the domain, before it even expires? Thought one pretty much had up till the expire date on the record, get they next payment in?
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Exactly.. MONEY MONEY MONEY! I've had my eye on a domain name that expired back on April 15 2001. It has YET to be removed from their database and when I inquire, NSI suggests I sign-up for this new "first come first serve" registration queue.
It was explained to me that for ONLY $45 (USD) you'd be placed in a queue to purchase the domain upon availability, through a third party company. Let me guess... the domain I'm looking at hasn't been removed in 10 months... but I bet if I pay this $45 to get in line, it will mysteriously be available?
A domain I wanted had been expired for about 8 months. I wrote to NetSol about 3 times, got a single reply that said that no information was available since I was not the registering party...DUH, the name was EXPIRED. There wasn't a re
The day after I sent my third email the WHOIS information became unavailable, but I still couldn't register the name. The day after that a bulk domain reseller showed up in the WHOIS.
Needless to say, I was pissed.
"Hello?"
"Is this Mr. Fantastic Lad?"
"Why, yes it is! What can I-"
"Please hold."
"What?" I'm on hold. So I hang up.
Ring ring ring:
"Y'ello?"
"Um, Mr. Fantastic Lad?"
"That's me. Who is this?"
"I'm calling from Network Solutions. Are you the owner of *********.com?"
"I don't think you understood my question. I don't care who you work for. Who are YOU? What's your name?"
"Um. . , (gives name)" Let's call him, 'Bob'.
"Okay, Bob. Did you just call ten seconds ago, ask for me, and then put me on hold?"
"Well, yes, but I have an important-"
"Stop talking Bob. You blew your chance at 'nice' by being incredibly rude. Nobody likes to be put on hold for no good reason. Do you understand just how rude it is to call somebody and then immediately put them on hold? It's a psychological trick used to establish dominance in a conversation. Do you think I want to be in a submissive position when I'm talking to a total stranger? Bob?"
Pause. "It's not a psychological trick. I'm just calling-"
"Look, Bob. You might be a somewhat nice guy on your own time, but for the purposes of here and now, I've decided that I really don't like you. I don't want to have an actual conversation with you. So I'm only looking for one word answers here. Look up from your little script, and answer either 'Yes' or 'No', or I'm ending this call. Got it?"
"But I've got important information about your account. I've-"
"Bob. . !"
"Sorry. Sorry."
"Alright then. Okay. Now first things first: Please answer this question: --Do you think I like being called up and put on hold by a total stranger?"
(Annoyed sound) ". . . No."
"That's right, I don't. And most people don't. In the future, you should consider that before being acting like a dick on the phone. I don't care if this is how you were instructed to treat people. If you find yourself faced with having to choose between being socially decent and following instructions by your boss to mistreat people, you should take it up with your employer and if you can't get beyond the impasse, you should quit. You've got a crappy job anyway. There are a lot of other things you could be doing in the world. Being rude to people over the phone is a choice you're making. And it's a dumb one. Now then. . , you tell me you work for Network Solutions?"
"Yeah."
"Alright. Now then, does Network Solutions really have something to call me about that I actually need to hear, or is it just an attempt to sell me something I don't want?"
"You might want it."
"Ahh. I see. So this is a sales call, then. So what, exactly, are you selling?"
"Well, I don't know, actually. . . My job is just to call people up, and verify that they own the web address on my list, and then connect them to the sales people."
"Sigh. Oh, Bob. I see you've been compartmentalized. I sympathize with you, Bob. -I'd quit your shit job in five seconds flat if I were you, but I do sympathize with you. And you don't actually have any idea what your sales people want to push on me?"
"I'm just told to tell people that it's important."
"Gotcha. Well, I'm sure if it's that important, they'll be in touch. I'm going to hang up now, Bob. Good luck with your life, and honestly. You should really consider quitting. Don't let the world bully you into thinking that you need to take their bullshit treatment of you. You won't die if you take the jump, Bob. Goodbye."
"Bye."
Click.
I got this call about five months ago. I'm told by others who received similar calls, that Network Solutions was trying to get people to buy similar sounding website names before competitors bought them up. A lame sales fear-tactic.
Verisign can go to hell.
-Fantastic Lad
Bingo. It's ridiculous that they are setting this up to handle existing names that haven't expired yet, when there are names which have already been expired for one or two years which cannot be claimed due to various registrars' screwed-up policies.
The whole name registration racket is in dire need of either total decentralization (to empower the customer) or else some real regulation to make sure that all registrars are playing by the same rules. Since I'm not too confident in ICANN's regulation so far, decentralization sounds like the way to go.
Heck, I'd love to see the Commerce Department (or an international disinterested party (you know, like ICANN was supposed to be?)) take back over the actual database, and provide the same access to all registrars alike. As it is now, any one of NSI's bad business ideas are basically unstoppable without a significant court battle.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Decentralization. Regulation always ends up with the business being regulated controlling the regulators. (At least I don't know of any exceptions.)
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
That there is no mention of how the current holder of the address would be handled? Would they get a chance to renew their contract? Or do they have to prepay to be on the waiting list? I can see these people doing the latter because it woul dgive them the most money. Either way, this idea doesn't sound good at all. We all one type of site that would be on almost every waiting list--p*rn.
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
It was interesting to read about this. I think there's a fair chance it may explain something that happened to me. I have a number of domains that just came up for renewal. I got notices for all of them except for one. It is one that I have been approached about before but I want to keep. It may just be a coincidence but it leads one to wonder.
I think a WLS would be a very questionable service all around. Even if it is implemented with every intention of being on the up and up, it still poses a very significant opportunity for abuse.
There is also the question of a waiting period for the current registrant of an expired domain name. I'm not sure if there is any offical grace period at the moment. I beleive there should be at least a 30 day period, preferably 90 days, from expiration to pay the renewal fee.
In addition to a grace period I beleive that anyone who is interested in an expiring domain should be able to register their interest for free on or AFTER the expiration date. If the domain has not been renewed at the end of the grace period it should then be auctioned off to all those who have registered interest.
I think that this would be an equitable solution that would be above reproach. Of course this mechanism may not be as profitable as the WLS.
After getting all of these people onto the "wait list", watch them try to auction the names at renewal time instead of merely accepting a renewal payment from the existing owner. That way, when you buy a name you will eventually have to outbid everyone else just to keep it. Of course a dishonest registrar could put bogus people on the wait list and drive up the auction price with bogus bids. Hmmmmmm.
http://www.you-suck.com/mutant/mutant.shtml will take you to the real page, no matter what browser...