Dot-Commers vs. Government Contractors

StrangeBeer writes: "When the dot-Com movement went bust, it sent thousands of former employees running for cover (or the unemployment line, whichever was closer). One place they didn't go was the way of the Government Contractor who, incidentally, is doing just fine right now with or without a recession. Various reasons are given for this and one I'd like to point out is that the government managers would rather hire an underqualified person with a security clearance and later train them in their tradecraft. The vast majority of these kinds of employees are coming from other kinds of federal work (military, civil service, etc.) and not defunct dot-Com companies."

Comments

Why not work for the gov right now?

[msolnik]

Truthfully its a pretty good idea. Yes you wont get paid as much as usual but you do get a lot of benifits working for the government. And very good job stability considering they are in desperate need of good IT people with knowledge and experience. Also you know they wont pull an Enron on you. Just a few of my thoughts...

Re:Why not work for the gov right now?

[2Flower]

I'd like to second this. I got VERY lucky... just coming out of college and looking for my first job, I NEEDED something in the area, stable, and with decent pay. I found a job as a webmonkey (with training opportunities for database programming and multimedia) for the FDA's Center For Devices and Radiological Health.

The practical upshot is that I got lots of great training via the Killing-- err, the Learning Tree, expanded my skills tremendously, started out with a fairly eeeh salary but am now living quite comfortably... and most importantly, I did all of right at the start of the .Com Crash.

If I had jumped in on the corporate entry level (not that there were many jobs for someone who previously thought Cold Fusion was a physics thing) I'd probably have bounced around a couple jobs, maybe had to move once or twice, and definitely not had the ability to save money and get nice and financially stable. While others were auctioning off their Aeron chairs to afford cold cans of beans, I was sittin' pretty on my cheapo Ikea office stool (with homemade padding).

There are drawbacks. One, you don't start out with the Hat Made Of Money. If you can live 'comfortably' and likely single without needing a ferrari, this is not a huge hurdle. Two, if you're young, a lot of government employees are not. I'm the youngest guy in my office by about ten years. Three, no, the work is not very sexy. I view work as a means to an end (end meaning "$$$" which I spend on things I WANT to do). If a sexier job with the same amount of stability pops up, I'll go for it, but until then make mine federal.

Re:Why not work for the gov right now?

[2Flower]

Which, IMHO, is one of the reasons gov't isn't looking to hire outta work .com folks. The gov't will invest heavily in the long term growth of its employees, and does not want to see that expensive training walk out the door the first time something glittery comes along. They are looking for stable team players, not mercenaries.

A good point; I probably should have emphasized the 'IF' and the 'AND'. I don't see it being very likely that I'll find a sexy job that's as stable as my government job, so I'm probably not changing careers -- not unless the office seriously relocates or some other factor pushes me out.

There was a lot of concern when I was taking this job that I might want to move on rather quickly after getting the training, but I'm in it for at least the 'Medium Haul' if not the Long Haul. That's the kind of expectation you need to make going into a job like this; it looks bad on a resume to take a career-style job and then leave soon after, anyway.

not so fast

[Em Emalb]

As a former military person, I would like to debunk a myth a lot of techies seem to have. Not everyone who worked in the military is under qualified.

In fact, a ton of inovations have come from those supposed undertrained military folks. Getting a security clearance is easy.

of course the government is doing all right...

[jejones]

...they can always shake down the citizens for more money or pile on some more deficits rather than fold. If people would come and throw you in jail and take all your money if you didn't buy a BeBox, Be would have done a lot better. Wouldn't have been right, but they'd have done a lot better.

I work for a DoD contractor

[wiredog]

As was pointed out in the article, many contractors will hire someone with a clearance and no experience because training them takes less time than clearing them does. A top secret clearance is a real meal ticket. The cultural differences are interesting. The government contractor expects to provide support for a product for years where the dot-com guy expects the product to be completely gone in less than a year. The government contractor wants coding standards and lots of documentation, so that if the programmer gets run over by a bus someone else can step in. The dot-com guy doesn't have the time, or inclination, to do documentaton, and often feels that coding standards are an infringement on his creativity. The contractor expects to stick with the same company, often the same project, for years. The dot-com guy expects to go from place to place following the money or the latest new exciting thing.

I work for a DoD contractor, and there's a war on. Woo! hoo! I'm gonna buy a house!

When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade.

Re:I work for a DoD contractor

[dhamsaic]

And yet you were saying how us at SAIC are "scary" a couple of months ago 'cause we do all kinds of secret stuff :)

Truth is, working at a government contractor is great right now - especially a defense contractor, which SAIC is. Our stock is going up. We've got thousands of openings. We're hiring, not laying off. The benefits are great.

The problem is, it takes discipline. I'm only 20, so this is something I had to learn the hard way. I'm still learning. Government contractors are different. They do require documentation. They want to know exactly how you made the broken software work so that if you do get hit by a bus, someone else can make it work. It's serious business. Unfortunately, not many from the dot-com bust really seem to understand this. It's a shame too, 'cause we miss out on a lot of talent simply because people don't understand the scope of what we're doing and how it must be complete and perfect because lives depend on it.

Those who do get it though... this is the place to be. You couldn't ask for anything more.

(OT: Where do you work again wiredog?)

dot-coms == bad investment

[J.D. Hogg]

"When the dot-Com movement went bust,"...

dot-coms are so 2000, I put all my money in dot-orgs now ...

Fedworld / Culture Clash

[Tackhead]

How 'bout the really simple explanation:

Any geek worth his salt has read Neal Stephenson's description of "Fedland" in Snow Crash.

Any geek who's ever seen the work processes in place in the real government (either through knowing someone who works there, or by morbid curiosity and reading policy/procedure manuals that describe to government workers how to process forms filled out by the public, for instance) has realized that Neal Stephenson's imaginary "Fedland" wasn't an exaggeration.

Stephenson's Demented Imagination: Fedland

NEW TP POOL REGULATIONS I've been asked to distribute the new regulations regarding office pool displays. The enclosed memo is a new subchapter of the EBGOC Procedure Manual, replacing the old subchapter entitled PHYSICAL PLANT/CALIFORNIA/LOS ANGELES/BUILDINGS/OFFICE AREAS/PHYSICAL LAYOUT REGULATIONS/EMPLOYEE INPUT/GROUP ACTIVITIES. The old subchapter was a flat prohibition on the use of office space or time forr "pool" activities of any kindm whteher permanent (e.g., coffee pool) or one-time (e.g., birthday parties). This prohibition still applies, but a single, one-time exception has now been made for any office that wishes to pursue a joint bathroom-tissue strategy. [ ... ]

Random Excerpt From The Real Thing: Meat, Poultry, Egg Produce Labeling Review Process"

FSIS streamlined the system in a final rule issued on December 29, 1995, (60 FR 67444) that became effective July 1, 1996, by expanding the categories of products for which labeling can be approved generically by industry. For example, the rule allows Federal establishments to design and use labeling that conforms to the regulatory requirements for meat, poultry, and egg products that have standards of identity and composition defined in the regulations (9 CFR 319 and 381) or in the Food Standards and Labeling Policy Book.

I'm a former dotcommer, and now I'm a gov't con.

[the_rev_matt]

Most of the former dotcom techies I know that are employed are gov't contractors. Maybe upper management/sales/marketing dweebs don't fit into gov't contracting, but tech types adapt and survive rather well from what I've seen.

Sure, things like reasonable development cycles, following set procedures, working normal hours, and documentation seem odd at first, but once you learn to accept those oddities it's a fairly easy transition.

The market favors the employer right now.

[(H)elix1]

The market favors the employer right now.

I saw the DoD comment, we will not change for the dot.comers, they will change to our culture. This is not only government; this is most companies out there. A couple years ago companies had to handle their employees with care because you could get another job by lunch. Now, well, I'd put a pained smile on my face and say sure - I can do that in VB for you. Reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon - You mean Unix programmer. Oh, just say never mind when the nurse shows up. Today, you would not get the option...

Maybe not yet

[opkool]

Maybe former dot-commers are not in Government-contractor firms (not yet) because the following points:

-Government-related positions run through a long and tedious line of HR, supervisors, interviews, political screening, more supervisors, more screening, yet more interviews... and all cluttered by unending bureaucracy. And now more than ever, after 9-11. So it takes some time (up to 2 years, IIRC from ComputerWorld or InfoWorld or something similar) from sending a resume to get hired.

-Many Government-related positions want only American citizens. Let's face it. Many IT workers are from outside the USA. So H1-B holders do not qualify. Then, permanent residents, legal aliens ans do on, also do not qualify. And, maybe, recent American-passport holders will not qualify by "security reasons".

-What is the ratio of Women in Government-contractor firms? How many managers do you see in Government Contractor firms? They all look to me like dinosaurs from the 60s. Yes, women only allowed as clerks.

So all this disqualify and dis-encourage most of former dot-commers: brilliant people that just cannot wait 2 years to get a job, people that has a good chance of being born elsewhere outside the US, and about 40% chance of being a women!

Hope those 2 years come-by fast, so I can get hired by Uncle Sam.

Of course this is my opinion as I see it.

Plese, what do you think?

Indeed

[FatHogByTheAss]

I've found, as a general rule, that people with some military training and background are generaly better engineers than your typical CS grad, as they have a real understanding of what mission critical means.

A 21 year old kid who has legitimately been responsible for someone elses life is far more experienced than the valedectorian at your local code monkey U.

Career prospects are very good

[wiredog]

For techies, anyway. The Federal Government has a severe shortage of techies and something like 50% of the workforce is going to retire in the next ten years. USGS has long been in the forefront of technology, in its field, NASA does pretty well. DoD understands the importance of technology, and pursues it avidly. Ever heard of Darpa? NSA tries to stay five years ahead of the civilian state of the art.

Of course, you have to avoid drugs, and the best jobs require a security clearance.

I'm a government consultant

[bryan1945]

I thought about jumping into the .com arena during the heyday, but I held back for some vague reasons. Sure, I only got my ok raises every year rather than huge bonuses and such, but I still have my job and have increased my income 50% in 4 years. I liked my job, I liked my coworkers, and I liked where I lived- why should I have jumped for the possible big gains? Turns out I was right, at least for my circumstances.

Some possible reasons why .comers won't go to government positions:
1) Less flexibility in hours and attitude.
2) Lots of military types in upper management.
3) Sensible business plans where everyone does NOT get $2000 chairs.
4) You actually have to work rather than just hype vapor.
5) You actually have to produce something, or provide a service, rather than just market yourself.
6) Generally need to have multiple skills in a variety of areas, rather than be _The Wizard_ in only one area.
7) MCSEs don't count as degrees in this line of work.

There's probably more, but this was just off the top of my head, and this is just my take from what I've seen of friends, coworkers, and acquaintances.

SEI CMM

[xphase]

I think the main reason that 'techies' don't want to work for Gov't Contractors is the strict development environment. Think of this in terms of an open source project. Generally there is no strict QA, no extensive version control, no set requirements, etc.

Now this, the general OSS development model, doesn't represent all techies, but I think many programmers, esp. the dot-commers, don't want to deal with all this crap. It's not that they can't deal with it, it is just that they don't want to.

The software development programs are many year long projects that have continual reviews: Design reviews, code reviews, SEI CMM(Software Engineering Institute Capability Maturity Model) or some other model reviews, documentation reviews, etc. These projects have *MASSIVE* code basses, and track *ALL* changes made. No one programmer can just decide to re-write a large portion of code. There are entire sections devoted to testing the software. Some employees do that, and only that. No bug fixing, no looking at the source, just testing.

Also time accounting is exact. You can't just decide to leave 15 minutes early and not report it. You must record all time worked, if you leave 15 minutes early, you must report it, then report again when you make up that time.

Sound fun? Some enjoy this model of work/development(me), but it is not for everyone, i.e.someone who is used to the dot-com lifestyle.

--xPhase

Re:Why not to work for the government.

[TWR]

Bullcrap. I've found that private sector techies tend to be woefully under-trained and under-educated, and the quality of their work shows it.

Count the programmers at the average dot-com who actually have degrees in CS. Then count the number of people working in federal research labs who have MSs or PhDs.

When you're working on mission-critical systems, where "mission critical" means "lots of people will die if you fuck up", the stakes are higher and people understand that. Dot-commers tend to do highly slapdash work because they figure they'll just sell the bug fixes as an upgrade.

-jon

I really must agree

[argoff]

When I worked on a recent government contract, everyone I ran into just assumed that I would want to work there for the rest of my life. They also just assumed that I wanted a security clearence. I don't. I'd much rather be in an environment where I'm free to share what I know with whoever I want to share it with, and where every last anal probe of my private life is not imspected with a fine tooth comb to get some "elite" type of clearence that is likely to pigon-hole my career anyhow.

I saw my dad slave away for the government for 30 years+ of bullshit and politics, and seeing billions wasted without tangable real-world results. I cant stand the thought of it.

People there don't understand - this is not a normal market institution. You can be more efficient, effective, and competent - but that will get you nowhere in government because they are accountable to political forces and not market forces. The only one meere advantage that they have is that in some minute areas they are non-propriatory. Well dammit, with linux out on the business world now - and the comodity PC, that is not even a real advantage anymore.

They are wrong, it is not the government that drives the market, they are the followers, free enterprize is the leaders because they are accountable to real economics.

Geographical Context of the Column

[guttentag]

Shannon Henry is a good columnist, but her columns aren't directed at software engineers in Houston, New York, Seattle or Silicon Valley.

Her job is specifically to cover the DC area's technology industry, which is saturated with people who work for government contractors or the federal government itself. In that sense, it's quite different from other areas of the country.

Traditionally, the DC area experiences an economic boom when the country goes to war (thousands of jobs are created, houses are built, etc.), so there may be jobs created there that don't exist where you live. Just something to bear in mind.

Civil service blows

[imac.usr]

government managers would rather hire an underqualified person with a security clearance and later train them in their tradecraft

What bullshit. Government managers want somebody with 10 years of Java experience to come and work for $35,000/year. Then, once you get in, they remove all incentive for you to advance by promising cushy benefits, annual COLAs, and best of all, job security. Here at NIH, it took almost two years for a grossly incompetent worker to be fired, simply becuase of the bureaucratic crap they had to wade through. There are techs here who let their NT 4 MCSE certifications lapse because our institute is primarily a Novell shop (although we use Exchange, we have no full-time Exchange admin); when I asked if they were planning to go for the upgrade to Win2K, they said "why bother? I don't need it" That's the kind of attitude they have here.

Then there's the condescending view all government employees have of contractors. That Dilbert cartoon a few months ago where the contractor is asked to bring his own air? It's not a joke.

I hate it here. As soon as I pass my Oracle certification tests, I'm out of here, and the federal government can kiss my fucking ass.

I'm doing this first hand.

[reaper20]

Working for the government is a double-edge sword where I work. I'm also a contractor working at a government facility.

At first, I did it our of desperation, since I got out of the Army last August, and there were serious hiring freezes in effect. "Infantry Platoon Leader" doesn't garner accolades with normal businesses.

Government work was a no-brainer for me, I had the clearance already, all I had to do is basically show up. Yes, I have to wear slacks and shirts with collars on them, but all in all, not to bad a situation, considering where the economy is.

My problem is lack of challenge. Everything is pretty backwards here. Users are expected to backup and install their own software, and print/sharing is basically all we have, but that doesn't matter, because God knows where the hell everything is anyway. Desktops and Laptops that come with Win2k are immediately downgraded to Windows 98 first edition, because it takes a LONG TIME to get anything approved. Every piece of software and hardware that we buy has to go through 3 comittees before approval. (Yep, even that printer cable).

We're running some sort of hybrid Novel 3.x network with some hastily thrown together login scripts, 10 Exchange servers that go down all the time (I believe it's 5.5 they are running), and some Computer Associates stuff that has yet to do anything. Some people even use Ghost to install client software, but only certain people are 'authorized', so all in all, the Dell Desktops (not allowed to buy anything else) are the default install, complete with AOL icons and everything. The typical 'security bulletin' is "Everyone go to Windows Update."

Of course, the mail system is clogged by the 'normal' US Army 300MB Powerpoint presentation that needs to be forwarded to multiple people, multiple times, at least three times a day. That's always great over our antiquated network.

What I don't know is if this is a typical situation in corporate America. I know other government agencies are more advanced, but its definately not us. I would like to know, because I'm pretty darn sure that Outlook shared calendars and Powerpoint "collaboration" using file sharing is considered enterprise level.

If that's the ONE great thing about working for the government, there's never a shortage of stuff to do.

Re:Why not to work for the government.

[C. Mattix]

Look at TRW Space and defence in Redondo beach CA, look at BAE Systems in San Diego. Those places are cutting edge. I don't understance the "2nd or 3rd rate" comment, definitly troll.
Remember that ARPANET was developed by government contractors.

Job for life mentality? What does that mean? Their company offers a pension instead of stock options that may well evaporate? They offer job security? Those things are more important as you grow older and get married and whatnot.

I interviewed with TRW. (Didn't take it because I decided I didn't like Cali). One of the people that I was interviewed by was actually a telemetry engineer for the Apollo 13 mission. That was cool.

The reason that a lot of places don't get much attention is that most of the really cool stuff to work on is rated DOD Top secret.

Stop bashing .com workers...

[curunir]

I'm so sick of everyone bashing .com workers. The media is so quick to label everything .com a failure. The reality that many of us .com'ers know is that the .com bubble burst because of terrible business plans and greedy venture capitalists. It was *rarely* because engineers weren't able to get the job done.

People have the mistaken idea that just because workers were given more freedom, that the quality of their work suffered. The idea that people working for .com's don't document their work is just wrong. Every .com I worked for (and there were 5) highly valued detailed functional and technical specs. We had coding standards which included fully commenting code. The difference was, we didn't have two years to complete the product. It was always ASAP. As a result, we did view our work less as striving toward a finished product and more toward meeting a deadline and then revisiting it again to add in the features that product planning decided were necessary.

It is truly a shame that so many great ideas are being discarded by labeling them part of the .com phenomenon. Ideas like respecting your workers and trying to create an environment where they can achieve as much as possible. From someone who saw them first hand, these ideas worked. Some amazing things were accomplished by tech workers at .coms...they just didn't have any business application.

So, if you have to slam the .coms, talk about the marketing people who spent millions on advertisements before the company saw revenues, let alone profits. Don't blame it on the engineering teams...we did our job.

Re:You looked at the wrong agency

[Roblimo]

Yup. I did both the Army and DoD thing, many years ago (hardware and RF) and I am still seeing "new" civilian stuff that I remember from back then. I got to play with a lot of seriously fine electronic-type toys, and even got to drive a tank a few times and play with things that went BOOM! very loudly now and then.

Saying "the government" or "the military" doesn't mean much. Different government agencies and different military units can be as different as civilian companies are from one another, and sometimes you find technical challenges in the government where you wouldn't necessarily expect them. The Department of Agriculture has done some serious supercomputer research. Ditto the National Institutes of Health. The IRS was a sinkhole for puter people for years, full of incompetence, but I have a friend who's doing system design there now and having a great time replacing some of their ancient junk. He took the job because the pay was okay and he wanted stability, not because he thought it would be fun, but he's really gotten into it. No clearance required, either.

There are lots of idiots and bad places to work in the government, but there are also great people and great places. Even in the Army, I generally did interesting things and didn't suffer too much from bureacracy. And as a free benefit, I didn't have to worry about what I was going to wear every day. :)

- Robin