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Qwest-MSN Subscription Switching: Unfair?
WallytheWalrus writes: "According to this article from today's Minneapolis Star-Tribune, the Minnesota State Commerce Department is investigating the fairness of Qwest DSL subscribers being switched over to MSN (as a part of the two companies' new "friendly strategic alliance"). A group of DSL service competitors have alledged that it's unfair that Qwest subscribers aren't being told of other ISPs available, and that if they do switch to MSN, switching out is overly complex and expensive. Can you smell the legal precdent abrew?"
Qwest and Microsoft *should* be partners -- Qwest is the Microsoft of the telecom industry. They telemarket numbers their customers have specifically asked to be unlisted; they bully, harass, and trick customers into accepting options they never wanted. A match made in heaven.
You can visit tsewQ.com for more info, or write their CEO at joe@qwest.com. It won't really help, but it might make you feel better to vent if you've been screwed by Qwest as, ahem, some of us have.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
No it isn't. Slamming is when a competitor to your current provider switches you without your consent. In this case Qwest is switching over their own customers.
The combination itself is pretty worrisome. Qwest aside from being a spammer's best friend, Qwest is being sued in Arizona by the state attorney general for "repeatedly defraud[ing] phone customers in Arizona by placing unauthorized charges on their phone accounts". In light of allegations like these, fairness seems to be the least of their concerns. Additionally, there is a huge uproar in Arizona about Qwest selling their customer's private information such as numbers called, etc. to marketing companies.
They are the perfect model for everything evil in corporations.
My sig hates me. That's ok, I never cared for it much anyway.
There's only a little bit of time left for you Qwest.net subscribers, so act fast. If you haven't gone looking for another ISP, (and don't want MSN) do so quickly. In the letter that I received from Qwest, they will switch your account to MSN automatically, contrary to what they said they were going to do earlier, which was to simply discontinue service.
I was a member of Qwest and just cancelled my account yesterday because I had a semi-popular web page on my account and wanted the redirector to be up as long as possible. Luckily, I found a great little ma 'n pa ISP in the local area who had good rates, the features that I wanted and are even *BSD and Linux friendly.
But trying to find the right phone number to cancel your service can be difficult, of course. After a half-hour of transferred numbers, I finally ended up at a number called Product Services or some name to that effect. Basically, the people you call to buy new services for your phone line, apparently they also handle(d) Qwest.net subscriptions.
(Note: Everything in the post relates to dialup service only.)
Yes, Slamming isn't a perfect analogy. However, this is a serious mistreatment of the customers 'best interests'. The penalties for leaving MSN are too high.
When you go buy a car at a Ford dealership, the salesmen don't tell you that Toyota makes better cars and that you should go elsewhere in their own best interests. It is the customers responsibility to shop around for a good car.
In this case, I think the commerce department definitely should step in. The average DSL customer doesn't know what their own 'best interests' are. It takes some small amount of technical knowledge to understand what exactly everything means. I think that Qwest definitely needs to tell their customers more explicitly what their other options are.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Seems like DSL providers are failing left and right. Is yours one of them? You don't want to take chances with your DSL. Qwest is a well-established national leader in broadband technology serving thousands of customers. You can count on us -- we're here to stay.
Soon all companies will spread FUD routinely! Like negative campaigns, FUD must work on stupid and brainwashed Americans because it's used so much. It is why I call anxiety the drug of choice for most Americans (just watch TV for an hour some day). But I digress!
What bothers me about this: Although some people say that MSN doesn't have a stronghold on the ISP market, their presence continues to increase. They are now the second largest ISP provider with 9%, after AOL, which has a whopping 33% [1].
But Microsoft isn't a monopoly. It's now metastasized into something much larger, as it has its tentacles into gaming, ISPs, aw, hell, you guys know the routine by now. And I'm not just spouting FUD. This is fact.
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
There is a service out there by qwest called Starterpack. Its a cross between the Office Account and Residental. The DSL Service Center for Qwest isn't allowed to talk about it so you have to mention it. You can get Static Ips and everything ^_^ (it is only 5 bucks extra).
FYI...the automatic migration was suppose to take place on Monday but they moved it back to March last minute
forget it.
I made the mistake of switching over to MSN voluntarily on Qwest's prompting several months ago. In december I had enough, and chose to switch ISPs. Bottom line:
Qwest is charging me a minimum of $250 for switching and new equipment, and I've been without DSL service for over a month; just to sweeten the deal, MSN had charged me for a month which I had no service.
So to get back to where I started, I'll be out of service a month and a half, I'll be charged $250++, and I'm gleefully paying for the privelege the entire time.
I understand there are class action lawsuits already started for their WA state customers like me.
The page is not easy to find, but you can get a list of alternative DSL ISPs here.
I can recommend Visi and USFamily.net. I am sure other folks can recommend their favorites also.
I had the SAME CAP/DMT quandary. I moved, switched my DSL to the new address, and come the turn-up day, NO dsl. Crap. They switched me to DMT and of course nobody bothered to even mention it, and they weren't about to credit me for the new 678 I needed. Typical Qwest bullshit.
I raised HOLY hell, but sweet as pie. At first they said they'd split the difference with me, no lie.
Of course they shipped TWO 678's, like they always do, along w/ a $700 bill. I asked for and got a meeting w/ a billing specialist in Boise, approached it politely as win/win, and in the end I walked out owing $29.95 for everything (even my phone bill that month) she having seen fit to **eliminate** my bill just for being polite yet persistent.
Then again as a WAN analyst, I have gotten REALLY good at finessing the telecom vendors. They just want somebody to love them...
And the MSNQwest deal? You gain "use" of a Intel DSL card, no ownership. That sucks for MANY reasons, of course.
I switched from Qwest to Fiberpipe when Qwest told me and my Linux box to take a flying you know what...
Umm okay man. I'm sure Ricco didn't appreciate that.
Back on topic, I'd like to share my side of this fiasco:
I work for an ISP in Qwest territory with about 4000 Qwest DSL customers. I'll start at the beginning.
First we had USWest ISP services in Minnesota, well they fired all of them before merging with Qwest. Now we're only represented by a general salesperson. First clue that they want to stomp the little guy.
I'll skip a few random unsurprising screwups and mention that they limit 1580 connections per DS3 connected to their ATM. The true limit is 2000+. This is either stupidity or an attempt to charge us more. It could quite possibly be either, with their record of incompetence. We pointed out their error and got them to extend the limit, but their databases still show that 1580 limit, we just run at 150%.
Before I get into the recent issues, I'll mention that they just fired their entire techsupport staff and restructured it with a bunch of trained monkeys at tier 1, moderate fools at tier 2, and the people who actually know how DSL works at tier 2.5 and 3. It's impossible to talk to tier 2.5 or 3, internal only, and we have to call them to fix their screwups all the time. They're also firing everyone at Interprise, their ATM gurus and networking guys.
I can find Qwest's reason for this as restructuring to decrease costs. However, they'd be much better off firing the managers who think giving these great people the axe is going to save them any money. I'll stop before I rant.
Please note that MSN is considered a 'Volume ISP', or rather Qwest made up that classification when they struck their deal. Under those terms, the VISP is the 'customer of record' on the DSL line. They pay Qwest for the service and bill the customer. This is not available to anyone who cannot guarantee something like 60,000 users per (some term). In order to move away from the VISP, you have to disconnect your service and pay a reconnection fee. However, to move to MSN, there is no 7-10 day downtime.
Not only do they clearly have a manipulative advantage towards MSN here, but they are so clumsy and bureaucratic that they cost us hundreds of dollars per day.
These two examples are a perfect sample of what we go through on a daily basis:
1:
Qwest.net customer goes to MSN, hates it, wants to switch to us cuz we rock. He still has his original standard DSL equipment, but also has the MSN-only USB funkything they sent him. He has to have his service disconnected, then reorder service with full installation charges to connect to us. He calls MSN (who is the 'customer of record' for his DSL line, see above) to cancel his service. The order makes it into the Qwest billing system, but someone in provisioning didn't do their job and left him connected to MSN. Order in billing system is marked 'completed 12/17/2000' but 'dslam info' which provisioning uses says it's MSN.
Customer calls Qwest to connect to us. Order goes into their system, and when it reaches provisioning, is cancelled saying 'already has dsl'. Note provisioning never reads the billing system orders.
Customer calls us to have us place the order, we tell him we can't because he's still on MSN (the Qhost system won't let us make that order, even with customer's approval). Although he is not using his MSN service, Qwest/MSN's systems are out of sync. So customer calls Qwest and they tell him we're full of it and to 'do our job'.
Next I get a conference call from 'Ann' at the 'Executive Offices' yelling at me. I explain to her that it's their own database that says it's MSN. I call Interprise to verify that he is indeed translated to MSN and they verify it is. I can hear 'Ann' sighing in the background and she clearly could give a rat's ass that this is their fault (let's fire her and save money). I get 'Ann' off the phone and call the customer back.
We contact customer service and order another disconnection, per advice of Interprise. I console the customer and explain everything involved and how it got so screwed up. He's still to this day waiting to connect back up to us.
I passed this along to our full-time Qwest haggler and he tried to work out a solution where they could simply fix their problem in the database, but last I heard nothing happened.
Total my time: 3 hours
Total dsl admin time: 2 hours
Total customer time: 3 months
2:
Qwest.net customer moves to us, doesn't want to touch MSN with a 40 foot pole. They have the old-style CAP (carrier amplitude phase) line, the kind that uses the Cisco 675, 605 or Intel 2100.
Customer calls Qwest to order change of provider, and order is processed. However, when it either never reaches provisioning, or they don't do their job when it hits their desk. Not only did they not retranslate the PVC, they mark the order as completed!
This has happened many dozens of times.
We get a call from the customer, who is still functioning through Qwest.net, and we can't turn them up. We call Interprise and it's fixed in a few minutes. Remember, they're firing those guys.
There is a 'known software bug' per some monkey we talked to once. So fix it already!
OK, that's a lot to read, but think what we go through every single day. Either Qwest needs to pay the salary of our full-time employee whose primary job is dealing with their f***ups, or maybe those quarterly bonuses are meant to buy us off.
There is a reason US/Qworst has been rated the worst service for a decade. The red tape and internal barriers are astounding. We talk to our sales rep weekly. We've sent detailed problem descriptions which get forwarded onto department heads, and we've even talked to the DSL product manager and nothing ever gets done.
Like our DSL admin said once, "I wish Qwest would hire me as a consultant, I could come in and point out every weak point, every problem, and save them tons of money." Oh yeah, and there's a damn good reason we have one single phone line from Qwest, and that's for testing only. The other 3000 or so circuits/channels are through a phone company that treats us like the customer we are.
Time for a few facts. Needless to say, try to switch.
:)
MSN _WORST_ rated isp on dslreports.com
The letter states on the front that prices will not increase (or something to that effect), on the back, it states that additional rates will apply, so msn is probably more expensive than a local mom and pop - and will be certainly more expensive than your qwest service ($5 a month or so, depending on region).
Switching over to another isp is a major hassle, though the same thing happens with msn, they have to tear down your dsl circuit, and rebuild it. Give about a week for qwest to rebuild a circuit because of the volume that they have at the current time, and all the corporate bullshit. I'd say some kind of fuckups happen around 1% of the time.
MSN call times - 6 1/2 minutes or less, essentially high school age kids / parolees are hired at $6.50 an hour. Forget about help from these people - no doubt they have good intentions and some may actually be good techs (albeit masacists(sp??)), but it takes about a minute to get user's information into the db and to bring up the user info, so. . .
Ask the tech to check the service logs to see if
a) you are correctly translated (i.e. no "fail" in the bottom of the service logs).
One last thing - people in tier 2 are under pressure to fix tickets, so occasionally they will just close the tickets without even working on them, and that is plain fucked up.
DSL Service Center 1-800-247-7285 1,2,4
Call these people to switch isps. MF 6-6 PST
Good luck I guess....
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The problem has nothing to do with MSN. MSN is just an ISP and has no direct control over your line. It's Qwest and Qwest alone which can reprovision your line.
Mmmm.. Donuts
First, Qwest's plan was to can the programmer people who knew the systems... in their original press, part of the reason they bought USWest in the first place. Next, Qwest moved out those line and upline managers who knew anything about how systems and anti-systems worked at the phone company. Now, the Qwest Way is to can the worker bees who have been trained and actually work issues, know the equipment and the black holes that were worked-around in anticipation of programming fixes that ain't gonna happen because there aren't any people who know that code any more. All that to pour the money into stock options for the top dogs and build out local connections in Europe and Asia, where the local equivalent of bellheads have bankrupted their state-owned telcos on God-awful overpriced licenses for 3G wireless frequencies. in those areas Qwest should be able to get local drops and service by gods riding Unicorns for one Euro per country per lifetime as long as they pay cash, and pay it promptly.
there is another all-managers meeting next Friday in Interprise land, after which the expected gutshooting will probably take place among staffers. previous tricks in this 5000-layoff cross-company sweep include moving a regulated switch and carrier monitoring center from Minnesota to Iowa because the regulators protest too much, and oh, yes, only 2/3 of the jobs will be staffed there... as well as lots of work center moves from one state to another, without staff moves, and without training for the new functions in the new location. And HR has admitted to at least one un-bargained hire that they are canning "expensive" people to hire cheaper ones, so be patient, and more jobs applicable to your experience will open in a short while. If you're on a work visa, so much the better.
this is what happens when people who wouldn't know a wire if it was strung between their ears get in charge of a regulated utility, try to run it like a McDonalds in a 15% unemployment area, and blow off their tech talent for the clueless and cheap. even high managers are asking where all the money went.
My experiences were similar to those mentioned above. I am fortunate that I am a developer by trade, knew how to configure a CISCO DSL modem by hand and chose a great local ISP who walked me through setting up my modem to bridging ATM mode from PPP mode.
The main point of disappointment I had was that the process for switching to MSN was EXTREMELY easy. From telemarketers who called on two different occasions to remind me that the switch was coming to multiple promotional mailings. Ultimately, if I did nothing about it, I would be switched automatically. This level of service was NOT given for alternative ISPs. For example, I had to make SEVERAL phone calls to Qwest customer support, got re-directed to wrong extensions multiple times just to get a list of alternative local ISPs that would support Qwest DSL.
As I mentioned above, I am a developer by trade, so when a local ISP tells me I'm going to have to reconfigure my DSL modem, I say, "OK, no problem". However, a majority of people out there are not "technical" and would probably hang up the phone right then go with MSN because it was so much easier. To me, that is a HUGE problem.
I don't mind Qwest making a deal with Microsoft to give them access to their Qwest customers. What I
do mind is making alternative choices so difficult that only the people who are dead set NOT to become MSN subscribers will jump through all the hoops required. Everyone else will "live with MSN" as they don't either have the time or support to choose anything else.
--I don't mind the school of hard knocks, it's those darned refresher courses I hate. =)
You are exactly correct. The way to fix the problem is to get a couple employees that do nothing but deal with Qwest. However to get them to do this you need to make it worth their while. Promise them $150 million over 5 years or so in services and you will get what you need.
The telco I work for did something like this last year and we now have several Qwest employees who work in our offices processing our orders and dealing with the rest of Qwest.
Qwest needs to satisfy the regulators, so if you work with them and show them how you can help them do this you can get what you need. Of course if you're too small they really don't (and won't) care.
I'm not saying this is the way it should be, just that this is the way it is.
I moved to Portland, Oregon about 10 months ago and immediately hooked up with Qwest DSL. Believe it or not everything went smoothly - perhaps because it was a new line and a new number.
Another friend of mine had moved here shortly before me and received a few services on her phone line that she didn't want - and explicitly refused - during her setup call. After several calls to Qwest she was able to get those services removed but was unable to get a refund for the months in which she was charged for these services.
Two other friends of mine *both* received extra DSL modems they didn't order or want. One of them was able to *refuse* the package when it arrived and wasn't charged. The other one wasn't so lucky when she sent the package back. Qwest couldn't verify that it had come back to them, and she spent several phone calls negotiating with Qwest reps about getting a refund. She was basically told it was her fault for not getting the tracking number at the time of her refusal. Both of my friends received extra charges which were a big hassle to get removed.
During some period last year I managed to somehow miss paying some phone bills. To get my account reinstated I had to send $175 or so dollars to Qwest which they would *hold on to* for a whole year. If I managed to keep up with my bills from now on I would get the money back - though I believe Qwest will keep all - or most - of the interest earned on that money. C'est las vie.
When I had purchased my DSL modem last year Qwest was running a "deal." $195 for the modem with a $100 rebate after three months. (More interest for Qwest - woohoo!). What I didn't know was that to get the rebate I had to send in a claim form. I must've missed it in my phone bill. I never read the crap advertisements that come lodged in with my bill. I never saw the refund reflected on my bill, and recently thought to chack up on this. I wrote a polite email to Qwest who informed me I would have to email the marketing firm handling the refund claims. I did so, and just last week - believe it or not - I received my $100 back from Qwest. I suppose this could be considered holding money in escrow, but I received none of the interest earned on my 100 bucks.
So I moved recently and decided to transfer my DSL account and ISP to the new place. Unfortunately I moved to a different part of town than my old exchange covered so I had to get a new phone number. I placed my DSL order and followed up by calling Qwest a week later to check the details of my order.
First, I needed no DSL modem. I already had one. So I canceled the modem. Next, I needed to retain my Qwest ISP service since Macs aren't covered by MSN. Everything seemed cool. I'm told to just call up Tech Support to hook my account up correctly after the service starts. I will be hooked up in 2 weeks, they tell me - December 21.
Around New Year's Eve I start to wonder where my DSL is. It hasn't been turned on and it's way past the due date. A couple days later I received the Qwest CD package with my ISP info. They've given me a whole new ISP account - a new email address and everything. I don't want it, so I call up Tech Support to straighten it out. About 30 minutes later I'm told it's all set, that my original ISP account will remain and my new one will be terminated. Cool. But they inform me that my service due date is January 7. Ugh.
January 15th rolls around and still I have no DSL service. I spend two hours getting transferred around only to learn the following:
1) My new ISP account is indeed scheduled for termination as it should be - including the DSL line!
2) For the first tie I learn that my Cisco 678 is no longer supported. It won't work because it's a "CAP" modem. I'm told I need a newer enhanced modem. I was incredulous. A 678 is a 678 isn't it? Nope, the helpful representative explains that it's like the difference between 8-Track tapes and CDs. "It's different inside, see?"
At this point I'm thinking: Whatever! The speeds are exactly the same, the model number is the same, the plug wiring is the same. Nothing is gained by going to some new format - except Cisco gets to sell a whole new generation of 678s. I actually tell the rep I don't believe him. I don't know who to believe. This is the first I've ever heard of it. So where do I send my old modem for a refund? The rep tells me that I get to keep the original 678. I'm free to keep it forever because I bought it and I paid for it. Gosh I feel lucky. I need my DSL dammit so reluctantly I place an order for a brand new $95 modem, complete with cables and instructions.
As I get shuffled around the phone tree I confirm with a tech that indeed I do need a new modem. The old one is a "CAP" modem while the new one is a "DMT" modem. I feel grateful for this deep insight.
3) I visit my friend and tell him about the modem changeover I've been forced to make. He plops into my hand a 678 DMT modem and tells me to refuse the modem when it arrives. Send it back and keep my $95. I thank him, run home and configure the modem for DHCP. Voila, at last my DSL is connected and working!
So how much time have I wasted? How much of Qwest's resources have been eaten up by little me - a single customer? How much extra work has been done because no one told me up-front that I had to change to a new modem? How much effort am I wasting by sending this modem back? How much *more* time will I have to spend to get my billing straightened out so that I won't be billed from the 7th until today - or is it Dec 21st until today? What if Qwest won't refund the $95 for the modem I'm about to refuse from them? And never mind that my ISP account isn't even associated with my new phone number but only my old one! And now what's happened to my disk space quota?? Suddenly I can't upload stuff to my web site any more!
Communication is the single most essential ingredient in any successful and efficient organization. I don't need to point out the irony here, do I? In my 10 short months in this region of the country Qwest has proven to me that they are disorganized, inefficient, underhanded, greedy, predatory, and - above all - monopolistic. The poor oversized beast is certainly dysfunctional. I only hope they get some professional help before they kill themselves.
-- thinkyhead software and media
I immediatly went out to switch ISP's when I heard of this merger back in October. The switchover itself was mildly painless. It actually took QWest near one week to change the dsl signal line from Qwest.net over to xmission. While getting the change rolling, they did mention that there was a charge of $30 for modifying my existing broadband/telephone service mandated by the US Government. I fought this as far as I could claiming it was unfair to force me over to an ISP which I did not choose or charge me for changing ISP's when I had no choice otherwise. I got clear up to some supervisor with her own 800 number to be told that there is nothing they can/will do about it.
Just to give a heads up, it is going to cost you $30 to drop MSN, a couple days downtime (no more than one week hopefully, and whatever startup fees for your new ISP.
Is that really fair?
-stimpy