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Qwest-MSN Subscription Switching: Unfair?
WallytheWalrus writes: "According to this article from today's Minneapolis Star-Tribune, the Minnesota State Commerce Department is investigating the fairness of Qwest DSL subscribers being switched over to MSN (as a part of the two companies' new "friendly strategic alliance"). A group of DSL service competitors have alledged that it's unfair that Qwest subscribers aren't being told of other ISPs available, and that if they do switch to MSN, switching out is overly complex and expensive. Can you smell the legal precdent abrew?"
Qwest and Microsoft *should* be partners -- Qwest is the Microsoft of the telecom industry. They telemarket numbers their customers have specifically asked to be unlisted; they bully, harass, and trick customers into accepting options they never wanted. A match made in heaven.
You can visit tsewQ.com for more info, or write their CEO at joe@qwest.com. It won't really help, but it might make you feel better to vent if you've been screwed by Qwest as, ahem, some of us have.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
is that they are forcing you to install "MSN Explorer" - other web software be damned.
For instance they give you an email address that can _only_ be accessed by using microsoft software. So if you are using Eudora (or linux), you're out of luck.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
The combination itself is pretty worrisome. Qwest aside from being a spammer's best friend, Qwest is being sued in Arizona by the state attorney general for "repeatedly defraud[ing] phone customers in Arizona by placing unauthorized charges on their phone accounts". In light of allegations like these, fairness seems to be the least of their concerns. Additionally, there is a huge uproar in Arizona about Qwest selling their customer's private information such as numbers called, etc. to marketing companies.
They are the perfect model for everything evil in corporations.
My sig hates me. That's ok, I never cared for it much anyway.
...Was on QWest DSL and then was summarily switched over to MSN(not much else they could do, or at least QWest made it sound like it). Unfortunately the service just wasn't what they expected (ie. they could never get the software to work with the hardware they had) so they asked to be disconnected and release the DSL line so they could switch to another DSL ISP(which coincidently is local).
That was in October or so where are they now? Without DSL. QWest can't release the line to another ISP because MSN is provisioned for the line. As far as MSN is concerned they aren't paying customers so why spend time helping them.
The main issue is this possible "slamming" but I bet more than one person has been bitten by situations just like this. Anyone got suggestions for my friend to take against QWest and MSN beyond asking the Iowa Attorney General to step in?
How about illegal.
Just as an AC posted about two mins ago, it's like 'slamming'.
If my local bell switched my phone service over to another company, and then signed some sort of contract on my behalf....
...sounds very illegal to me.
Get your Unix fortune now!
There's only a little bit of time left for you Qwest.net subscribers, so act fast. If you haven't gone looking for another ISP, (and don't want MSN) do so quickly. In the letter that I received from Qwest, they will switch your account to MSN automatically, contrary to what they said they were going to do earlier, which was to simply discontinue service.
I was a member of Qwest and just cancelled my account yesterday because I had a semi-popular web page on my account and wanted the redirector to be up as long as possible. Luckily, I found a great little ma 'n pa ISP in the local area who had good rates, the features that I wanted and are even *BSD and Linux friendly.
But trying to find the right phone number to cancel your service can be difficult, of course. After a half-hour of transferred numbers, I finally ended up at a number called Product Services or some name to that effect. Basically, the people you call to buy new services for your phone line, apparently they also handle(d) Qwest.net subscriptions.
(Note: Everything in the post relates to dialup service only.)
Yes, Slamming isn't a perfect analogy. However, this is a serious mistreatment of the customers 'best interests'. The penalties for leaving MSN are too high.
When you go buy a car at a Ford dealership, the salesmen don't tell you that Toyota makes better cars and that you should go elsewhere in their own best interests. It is the customers responsibility to shop around for a good car.
In this case, I think the commerce department definitely should step in. The average DSL customer doesn't know what their own 'best interests' are. It takes some small amount of technical knowledge to understand what exactly everything means. I think that Qwest definitely needs to tell their customers more explicitly what their other options are.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Seems like DSL providers are failing left and right. Is yours one of them? You don't want to take chances with your DSL. Qwest is a well-established national leader in broadband technology serving thousands of customers. You can count on us -- we're here to stay.
Soon all companies will spread FUD routinely! Like negative campaigns, FUD must work on stupid and brainwashed Americans because it's used so much. It is why I call anxiety the drug of choice for most Americans (just watch TV for an hour some day). But I digress!
What bothers me about this: Although some people say that MSN doesn't have a stronghold on the ISP market, their presence continues to increase. They are now the second largest ISP provider with 9%, after AOL, which has a whopping 33% [1].
But Microsoft isn't a monopoly. It's now metastasized into something much larger, as it has its tentacles into gaming, ISPs, aw, hell, you guys know the routine by now. And I'm not just spouting FUD. This is fact.
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
There is a service out there by qwest called Starterpack. Its a cross between the Office Account and Residental. The DSL Service Center for Qwest isn't allowed to talk about it so you have to mention it. You can get Static Ips and everything ^_^ (it is only 5 bucks extra).
FYI...the automatic migration was suppose to take place on Monday but they moved it back to March last minute
forget it.
I gave up on DSL after finding that I had to upgrade my router ($95) and pay an extra $70 startup fee for choosing an ISP other than Microsoft. This is why I chose to go with AT&T Broadband cable (which, sadly, is now in part owned by MS).
The partnership between MS and Qwest is a winning proposition for those companies for two reasons: First, the financial deterrent is high enough for the bulk of people -- for whom hatred of MS is not a lifestyle -- simply to go with the default offering. Second, I suspect that a great many people don't actually know the difference between the provider of the DSL line and the ISP, and so the question of which ISP to use is one likely considered with apprehension and frustration, leading people again simply to accept what Qwest suggests (MS).
Financially, it's not going to be possible to fight the MS/Qwest alliance for the reasons above, which makes the litigation here a last line of defense for competition in the broadband market. Unfortunately, if successful action is to be taken, it will be in the form of another lengthy anti-trust case -- a class action lawsuit on the part of slighted customers won't work, because while Qwest's choice of partners is offensive to some people, the bottom line is that Qwest is still providing the service that people are paying for, and in so doing they are fulfilling their legal obligation to the customer.
The real kicker here is that we know from recent experience how long it takes to establish corrective measures to control Microsoft's anti-competitive behavior, and in the time it takes to do so dozens of small, homegrown ISPs will starve.
The page is not easy to find, but you can get a list of alternative DSL ISPs here.
I can recommend Visi and USFamily.net. I am sure other folks can recommend their favorites also.
I had the SAME CAP/DMT quandary. I moved, switched my DSL to the new address, and come the turn-up day, NO dsl. Crap. They switched me to DMT and of course nobody bothered to even mention it, and they weren't about to credit me for the new 678 I needed. Typical Qwest bullshit.
I raised HOLY hell, but sweet as pie. At first they said they'd split the difference with me, no lie.
Of course they shipped TWO 678's, like they always do, along w/ a $700 bill. I asked for and got a meeting w/ a billing specialist in Boise, approached it politely as win/win, and in the end I walked out owing $29.95 for everything (even my phone bill that month) she having seen fit to **eliminate** my bill just for being polite yet persistent.
Then again as a WAN analyst, I have gotten REALLY good at finessing the telecom vendors. They just want somebody to love them...
And the MSNQwest deal? You gain "use" of a Intel DSL card, no ownership. That sucks for MANY reasons, of course.
I switched from Qwest to Fiberpipe when Qwest told me and my Linux box to take a flying you know what...
Umm okay man. I'm sure Ricco didn't appreciate that.
Back on topic, I'd like to share my side of this fiasco:
I work for an ISP in Qwest territory with about 4000 Qwest DSL customers. I'll start at the beginning.
First we had USWest ISP services in Minnesota, well they fired all of them before merging with Qwest. Now we're only represented by a general salesperson. First clue that they want to stomp the little guy.
I'll skip a few random unsurprising screwups and mention that they limit 1580 connections per DS3 connected to their ATM. The true limit is 2000+. This is either stupidity or an attempt to charge us more. It could quite possibly be either, with their record of incompetence. We pointed out their error and got them to extend the limit, but their databases still show that 1580 limit, we just run at 150%.
Before I get into the recent issues, I'll mention that they just fired their entire techsupport staff and restructured it with a bunch of trained monkeys at tier 1, moderate fools at tier 2, and the people who actually know how DSL works at tier 2.5 and 3. It's impossible to talk to tier 2.5 or 3, internal only, and we have to call them to fix their screwups all the time. They're also firing everyone at Interprise, their ATM gurus and networking guys.
I can find Qwest's reason for this as restructuring to decrease costs. However, they'd be much better off firing the managers who think giving these great people the axe is going to save them any money. I'll stop before I rant.
Please note that MSN is considered a 'Volume ISP', or rather Qwest made up that classification when they struck their deal. Under those terms, the VISP is the 'customer of record' on the DSL line. They pay Qwest for the service and bill the customer. This is not available to anyone who cannot guarantee something like 60,000 users per (some term). In order to move away from the VISP, you have to disconnect your service and pay a reconnection fee. However, to move to MSN, there is no 7-10 day downtime.
Not only do they clearly have a manipulative advantage towards MSN here, but they are so clumsy and bureaucratic that they cost us hundreds of dollars per day.
These two examples are a perfect sample of what we go through on a daily basis:
1:
Qwest.net customer goes to MSN, hates it, wants to switch to us cuz we rock. He still has his original standard DSL equipment, but also has the MSN-only USB funkything they sent him. He has to have his service disconnected, then reorder service with full installation charges to connect to us. He calls MSN (who is the 'customer of record' for his DSL line, see above) to cancel his service. The order makes it into the Qwest billing system, but someone in provisioning didn't do their job and left him connected to MSN. Order in billing system is marked 'completed 12/17/2000' but 'dslam info' which provisioning uses says it's MSN.
Customer calls Qwest to connect to us. Order goes into their system, and when it reaches provisioning, is cancelled saying 'already has dsl'. Note provisioning never reads the billing system orders.
Customer calls us to have us place the order, we tell him we can't because he's still on MSN (the Qhost system won't let us make that order, even with customer's approval). Although he is not using his MSN service, Qwest/MSN's systems are out of sync. So customer calls Qwest and they tell him we're full of it and to 'do our job'.
Next I get a conference call from 'Ann' at the 'Executive Offices' yelling at me. I explain to her that it's their own database that says it's MSN. I call Interprise to verify that he is indeed translated to MSN and they verify it is. I can hear 'Ann' sighing in the background and she clearly could give a rat's ass that this is their fault (let's fire her and save money). I get 'Ann' off the phone and call the customer back.
We contact customer service and order another disconnection, per advice of Interprise. I console the customer and explain everything involved and how it got so screwed up. He's still to this day waiting to connect back up to us.
I passed this along to our full-time Qwest haggler and he tried to work out a solution where they could simply fix their problem in the database, but last I heard nothing happened.
Total my time: 3 hours
Total dsl admin time: 2 hours
Total customer time: 3 months
2:
Qwest.net customer moves to us, doesn't want to touch MSN with a 40 foot pole. They have the old-style CAP (carrier amplitude phase) line, the kind that uses the Cisco 675, 605 or Intel 2100.
Customer calls Qwest to order change of provider, and order is processed. However, when it either never reaches provisioning, or they don't do their job when it hits their desk. Not only did they not retranslate the PVC, they mark the order as completed!
This has happened many dozens of times.
We get a call from the customer, who is still functioning through Qwest.net, and we can't turn them up. We call Interprise and it's fixed in a few minutes. Remember, they're firing those guys.
There is a 'known software bug' per some monkey we talked to once. So fix it already!
OK, that's a lot to read, but think what we go through every single day. Either Qwest needs to pay the salary of our full-time employee whose primary job is dealing with their f***ups, or maybe those quarterly bonuses are meant to buy us off.
There is a reason US/Qworst has been rated the worst service for a decade. The red tape and internal barriers are astounding. We talk to our sales rep weekly. We've sent detailed problem descriptions which get forwarded onto department heads, and we've even talked to the DSL product manager and nothing ever gets done.
Like our DSL admin said once, "I wish Qwest would hire me as a consultant, I could come in and point out every weak point, every problem, and save them tons of money." Oh yeah, and there's a damn good reason we have one single phone line from Qwest, and that's for testing only. The other 3000 or so circuits/channels are through a phone company that treats us like the customer we are.
I work for an ISP in Qwest territory with about 4000 Qwest DSL customers. I'll start at the beginning.
First we had USWest ISP services in Minnesota, well they fired all of them before merging with Qwest. Now we're only represented by a general salesperson. First clue that they want to stomp the little guy.
I'll skip a few random unsurprising screwups and mention that they limit 1580 connections per DS3 connected to their ATM. The true limit is 2000+. This is either stupidity or an attempt to charge us more. It could quite possibly be either, with their record of incompetence. We pointed out their error and got them to extend the limit, but their databases still show that 1580 limit, we just run at 150%.
Before I get into the recent issues, I'll mention that they just fired their entire techsupport staff and restructured it with a bunch of trained monkeys at tier 1, moderate fools at tier 2, and the people who actually know how DSL works at tier 2.5 and 3. It's impossible to talk to tier 2.5 or 3, internal only, and we have to call them to fix their screwups all the time. They're also firing everyone at Interprise, their ATM gurus and networking guys.
I can find Qwest's reason for this as restructuring to decrease costs. However, they'd be much better off firing the managers who think giving these great people the axe is going to save them any money. I'll stop before I rant.
Please note that MSN is considered a 'Volume ISP', or rather Qwest made up that classification when they struck their deal. Under those terms, the VISP is the 'customer of record' on the DSL line. They pay Qwest for the service and bill the customer. This is not available to anyone who cannot guarantee something like 60,000 users per (some term). In order to move away from the VISP, you have to disconnect your service and pay a reconnection fee. However, to move to MSN, there is no 7-10 day downtime.
Not only do they clearly have a manipulative advantage towards MSN here, but they are so clumsy and bureaucratic that they cost us hundreds of dollars per day.
These two examples are a perfect sample of what we go through on a daily basis:
1:
Qwest.net customer goes to MSN, hates it, wants to switch to us cuz we rock. He still has his original standard DSL equipment, but also has the MSN-only USB funkything they sent him. He has to have his service disconnected, then reorder service with full installation charges to connect to us. He calls MSN (who is the 'customer of record' for his DSL line, see above) to cancel his service. The order makes it into the Qwest billing system, but someone in provisioning didn't do their job and left him connected to MSN. Order in billing system is marked 'completed 12/17/2000' but 'dslam info' which provisioning uses says it's MSN.
Customer calls Qwest to connect to us. Order goes into their system, and when it reaches provisioning, is cancelled saying 'already has dsl'. Note provisioning never reads the billing system orders.
Customer calls us to have us place the order, we tell him we can't because he's still on MSN (the Qhost system won't let us make that order, even with customer's approval). Although he is not using his MSN service, Qwest/MSN's systems are out of sync. So customer calls Qwest and they tell him we're full of it and to 'do our job'.
Next I get a conference call from 'Ann' at the 'Executive Offices' yelling at me. I explain to her that it's their own database that says it's MSN. I call Interprise to verify that he is indeed translated to MSN and they verify it is. I can hear 'Ann' sighing in the background and she clearly could give a rat's ass that this is their fault (let's fire her and save money). I get 'Ann' off the phone and call the customer back.
We contact customer service and order another disconnection, per advice of Interprise. I console the customer and explain everything involved and how it got so screwed up. He's still to this day waiting to connect back up to us.
I passed this along to our full-time Qwest haggler and he tried to work out a solution where they could simply fix their problem in the database, but last I heard nothing happened.
Total my time: 3 hours
Total dsl admin time: 2 hours
Total customer time: 3 months
2:
Qwest.net customer moves to us, doesn't want to touch MSN with a 40 foot pole. They have the old-style CAP (carrier amplitude phase) line, the kind that uses the Cisco 675, 605 or Intel 2100.
Customer calls Qwest to order change of provider, and order is processed. However, when it either never reaches provisioning, or they don't do their job when it hits their desk. Not only did they not retranslate the PVC, they mark the order as completed!
This has happened many dozens of times.
We get a call from the customer, who is still functioning through Qwest.net, and we can't turn them up. We call Interprise and it's fixed in a few minutes. Remember, they're firing those guys.
There is a 'known software bug' per some monkey we talked to once. So fix it already!
OK, that's a lot to read, but think what we go through every single day. Either Qwest needs to pay the salary of our full-time employee whose primary job is dealing with their f***ups, or maybe those quarterly bonuses are meant to buy us off.
There is a reason US/Qworst has been rated the worst service for a decade. The red tape and internal barriers are astounding. We talk to our sales rep weekly. We've sent detailed problem descriptions which get forwarded onto department heads, and we've even talked to the DSL product manager and nothing ever gets done.
Like our DSL admin said once, "I wish Qwest would hire me as a consultant, I could come in and point out every weak point, every problem, and save them tons of money." Oh yeah, and there's a damn good reason we have one single phone line from Qwest, and that's for testing only. The other 3000 or so circuits/channels are through a phone company that treats us like the customer we are.
Time for a few facts. Needless to say, try to switch.
:)
MSN _WORST_ rated isp on dslreports.com
The letter states on the front that prices will not increase (or something to that effect), on the back, it states that additional rates will apply, so msn is probably more expensive than a local mom and pop - and will be certainly more expensive than your qwest service ($5 a month or so, depending on region).
Switching over to another isp is a major hassle, though the same thing happens with msn, they have to tear down your dsl circuit, and rebuild it. Give about a week for qwest to rebuild a circuit because of the volume that they have at the current time, and all the corporate bullshit. I'd say some kind of fuckups happen around 1% of the time.
MSN call times - 6 1/2 minutes or less, essentially high school age kids / parolees are hired at $6.50 an hour. Forget about help from these people - no doubt they have good intentions and some may actually be good techs (albeit masacists(sp??)), but it takes about a minute to get user's information into the db and to bring up the user info, so. . .
Ask the tech to check the service logs to see if
a) you are correctly translated (i.e. no "fail" in the bottom of the service logs).
One last thing - people in tier 2 are under pressure to fix tickets, so occasionally they will just close the tickets without even working on them, and that is plain fucked up.
DSL Service Center 1-800-247-7285 1,2,4
Call these people to switch isps. MF 6-6 PST
Good luck I guess....
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I am still amazed at the multi-tier confusion that is the US DSL business.
I suppose it makes sense, sort of.
Canada:
If you have DSL... then whoever your ISP is owns all the involved gear except the telco lines. There is no DSL provider separate from the ISP (Maybe there is back east in Toronto.. I dunno, nowhere I've been though).
I really think the problem here is that you have just too many cooks.
You have a telco, who provides wiring
You have a DSL provider, who provides like, layer 2 networking over that wiring
You have an ISP who provides the rest. YIKES!
In many cases here, It's ONE company.. the telco. Why? Becuase.. nevermind monopolies and such.. it JUST MAKES SENSE
Look at it.
The telco owns the switches & property around the switches. So it's easy for them to get the CO DSL gear as close to their switches as possible.
They already have a network in place, with huge bandwidth.
OF course, we are a smaller market, so I suppose that has something to do with it. but hey, IT WORKS.
Now... I've also dealt with a DSL provider who was separate from the phone company.
Until a few weeks ago, whenever someone would ask what our (Qwest Tech Support) number was, I would say 1 877 777 9569 (I think that is what I told them), instead of 1 888 777 9569.
So one day, I decided to call our number and play with the tech (note hatred towards most coworkers for their stupidity)...so I called...I immediately dropped the phone in horror...I had referred a couple hundred people to a gay porn number... =P
forget it.