Slashdot Mirror
Qwest-MSN Subscription Switching: Unfair?
WallytheWalrus writes: "According to this article from today's Minneapolis Star-Tribune, the Minnesota State Commerce Department is investigating the fairness of Qwest DSL subscribers being switched over to MSN (as a part of the two companies' new "friendly strategic alliance"). A group of DSL service competitors have alledged that it's unfair that Qwest subscribers aren't being told of other ISPs available, and that if they do switch to MSN, switching out is overly complex and expensive. Can you smell the legal precdent abrew?"
Qwest and Microsoft *should* be partners -- Qwest is the Microsoft of the telecom industry. They telemarket numbers their customers have specifically asked to be unlisted; they bully, harass, and trick customers into accepting options they never wanted. A match made in heaven.
You can visit tsewQ.com for more info, or write their CEO at joe@qwest.com. It won't really help, but it might make you feel better to vent if you've been screwed by Qwest as, ahem, some of us have.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
is that they are forcing you to install "MSN Explorer" - other web software be damned.
For instance they give you an email address that can _only_ be accessed by using microsoft software. So if you are using Eudora (or linux), you're out of luck.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
The combination itself is pretty worrisome. Qwest aside from being a spammer's best friend, Qwest is being sued in Arizona by the state attorney general for "repeatedly defraud[ing] phone customers in Arizona by placing unauthorized charges on their phone accounts". In light of allegations like these, fairness seems to be the least of their concerns. Additionally, there is a huge uproar in Arizona about Qwest selling their customer's private information such as numbers called, etc. to marketing companies.
They are the perfect model for everything evil in corporations.
My sig hates me. That's ok, I never cared for it much anyway.
...Was on QWest DSL and then was summarily switched over to MSN(not much else they could do, or at least QWest made it sound like it). Unfortunately the service just wasn't what they expected (ie. they could never get the software to work with the hardware they had) so they asked to be disconnected and release the DSL line so they could switch to another DSL ISP(which coincidently is local).
That was in October or so where are they now? Without DSL. QWest can't release the line to another ISP because MSN is provisioned for the line. As far as MSN is concerned they aren't paying customers so why spend time helping them.
The main issue is this possible "slamming" but I bet more than one person has been bitten by situations just like this. Anyone got suggestions for my friend to take against QWest and MSN beyond asking the Iowa Attorney General to step in?
How about illegal.
Just as an AC posted about two mins ago, it's like 'slamming'.
If my local bell switched my phone service over to another company, and then signed some sort of contract on my behalf....
...sounds very illegal to me.
Get your Unix fortune now!
There's only a little bit of time left for you Qwest.net subscribers, so act fast. If you haven't gone looking for another ISP, (and don't want MSN) do so quickly. In the letter that I received from Qwest, they will switch your account to MSN automatically, contrary to what they said they were going to do earlier, which was to simply discontinue service.
I was a member of Qwest and just cancelled my account yesterday because I had a semi-popular web page on my account and wanted the redirector to be up as long as possible. Luckily, I found a great little ma 'n pa ISP in the local area who had good rates, the features that I wanted and are even *BSD and Linux friendly.
But trying to find the right phone number to cancel your service can be difficult, of course. After a half-hour of transferred numbers, I finally ended up at a number called Product Services or some name to that effect. Basically, the people you call to buy new services for your phone line, apparently they also handle(d) Qwest.net subscriptions.
(Note: Everything in the post relates to dialup service only.)
Yes, Slamming isn't a perfect analogy. However, this is a serious mistreatment of the customers 'best interests'. The penalties for leaving MSN are too high.
When you go buy a car at a Ford dealership, the salesmen don't tell you that Toyota makes better cars and that you should go elsewhere in their own best interests. It is the customers responsibility to shop around for a good car.
In this case, I think the commerce department definitely should step in. The average DSL customer doesn't know what their own 'best interests' are. It takes some small amount of technical knowledge to understand what exactly everything means. I think that Qwest definitely needs to tell their customers more explicitly what their other options are.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
Seems like DSL providers are failing left and right. Is yours one of them? You don't want to take chances with your DSL. Qwest is a well-established national leader in broadband technology serving thousands of customers. You can count on us -- we're here to stay.
Soon all companies will spread FUD routinely! Like negative campaigns, FUD must work on stupid and brainwashed Americans because it's used so much. It is why I call anxiety the drug of choice for most Americans (just watch TV for an hour some day). But I digress!
What bothers me about this: Although some people say that MSN doesn't have a stronghold on the ISP market, their presence continues to increase. They are now the second largest ISP provider with 9%, after AOL, which has a whopping 33% [1].
But Microsoft isn't a monopoly. It's now metastasized into something much larger, as it has its tentacles into gaming, ISPs, aw, hell, you guys know the routine by now. And I'm not just spouting FUD. This is fact.
SDMI: Finally! Music that won't rip or burn! Brought to you by the fine folks at RIAA.
I work for an ISP in Seattle. This switch has been hell on customers. Even when they do request another ISP Q west/MSN isn't changing them over and when they do it's taking longer then ever before. I am a very conservative person and I don't care for lawsuits and such but this is certainly a case where the state AG should get involved. To bad WA states AG is such a disgusting person. She'll never go after microsoft.
There is a service out there by qwest called Starterpack. Its a cross between the Office Account and Residental. The DSL Service Center for Qwest isn't allowed to talk about it so you have to mention it. You can get Static Ips and everything ^_^ (it is only 5 bucks extra).
FYI...the automatic migration was suppose to take place on Monday but they moved it back to March last minute
forget it.
I gave up on DSL after finding that I had to upgrade my router ($95) and pay an extra $70 startup fee for choosing an ISP other than Microsoft. This is why I chose to go with AT&T Broadband cable (which, sadly, is now in part owned by MS).
The partnership between MS and Qwest is a winning proposition for those companies for two reasons: First, the financial deterrent is high enough for the bulk of people -- for whom hatred of MS is not a lifestyle -- simply to go with the default offering. Second, I suspect that a great many people don't actually know the difference between the provider of the DSL line and the ISP, and so the question of which ISP to use is one likely considered with apprehension and frustration, leading people again simply to accept what Qwest suggests (MS).
Financially, it's not going to be possible to fight the MS/Qwest alliance for the reasons above, which makes the litigation here a last line of defense for competition in the broadband market. Unfortunately, if successful action is to be taken, it will be in the form of another lengthy anti-trust case -- a class action lawsuit on the part of slighted customers won't work, because while Qwest's choice of partners is offensive to some people, the bottom line is that Qwest is still providing the service that people are paying for, and in so doing they are fulfilling their legal obligation to the customer.
The real kicker here is that we know from recent experience how long it takes to establish corrective measures to control Microsoft's anti-competitive behavior, and in the time it takes to do so dozens of small, homegrown ISPs will starve.
I made the mistake of switching over to MSN voluntarily on Qwest's prompting several months ago. In december I had enough, and chose to switch ISPs. Bottom line:
Qwest is charging me a minimum of $250 for switching and new equipment, and I've been without DSL service for over a month; just to sweeten the deal, MSN had charged me for a month which I had no service.
So to get back to where I started, I'll be out of service a month and a half, I'll be charged $250++, and I'm gleefully paying for the privelege the entire time.
I understand there are class action lawsuits already started for their WA state customers like me.
I used a smaller ISP (drizzle ) in Seattle, and although you can get whatever ISP you want, they do make it as difficult as hell. It can take a month to get everything working right. Drizzle has a person that works there whose job it is to deal with Qwest. If you get Qwest.net, and now MSN, it goes smoothly. If it wasnt for the fact that I know the technology, I know the business and that both of my brothers install their equipment, I would find it too much of a pain in the ass to bother. I forst got connected to drizzle through Covad DSL and they were much better to deal with. They treated DSL exactly like it was supposed to be treated: like a T1. You get your circuit and then you get your ISP. Qwest is the local loop provider. That's it, and I make sure they know it.
I just today received an email from Qwest saying that I should switch over soon, but they were not going to discontinue service as of January 21 as they originally had stated. I wonder if that is because of problems with the switch, or if it's because people had complained.
By the way, the simplest way to avoid the issue is to do what I did and pay a little more for the business class service from Qwest. You can get static IP's and their TOS allowes web servers & stuff. They even let you control your reverse dns.
After moving to Seattle, no more than 13 miles from the sprawling Microsoft campus in Redmond, I signed up for MSN through Qwest. After 3 weeks, and an astute deliveryman from Airborn Express noticing that the wrong address was on the package, a DSL modem finally arrived. The modem was defective. 60, no shit, 60 phone calls, at least 30 address corrections, and 4 months later I cancelled the service and called AT&T. One week later a package arrived, the new modem from MSN. In a service industry in their own backyard the behemoths of bullshit could not get a simple address corrected nor a simple modem delivered until after the service was cancelled. Never have I seen such a case of the left testicle not knowing what the right testicle was doing. Fuck them.
The page is not easy to find, but you can get a list of alternative DSL ISPs here.
I can recommend Visi and USFamily.net. I am sure other folks can recommend their favorites also.
So far the second transfer hasn't been nearly as bad as the first (First one throttled my 768k speed to a max of 128k - day or night). I quickly changed after the first transfer...
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
i've subscribed to Qwest DSL, and though a hellish argument with Qwest employees, i managed to get Qwest.net access, and to my knowledge, i will not be switched to MSN. this is, of course, due to the fact that i'll be using "every OS under the sun" as i put it 3 months ago (which was over a month before i finally got access).
it appears that MSN internet access is only "available" to Windoze users. i guess their service is "incompatible" with other OSes. were it not for good Mr. Torvalds, i would still be enslaved under Mr. Gates' tyrranical rule.
beleive me, i'll be switching to our local power company's ISP the minute Qwest gives me any lip. i'll do so after giving several Qwest employees a thorough verbal pounding.
grey wolf
LET FORTRAN DIE!
Its a small start by my fellow ISP owners, and I would encourage all QWEST territory ISP users to contact their ISP's and have them join in the battle.
On this page is information for Minnesota, but we could expand it for EVERY QWEST territory
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
See, you realise, you are of some percentage of unhappy people. I won't even guess at the number. But like Apple, MSN/Quest has a small percentage of people paying a mothly fee for a service. The percentage, though small, and maybe about to jump a few percent-points, adds up to a lot of people who are unfortunately happy.
Am I excusing their behavior? No. The customer no longer comes first because there are many happy and ignorant to the MS-empire-thing customers.
What'd be cool is if we formed some sorta riot with pitchforks and start pokin' MS/Quest people in the eye to improve their service.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
I can see the legal problems which could pop up, just because microsoft is microsoft..
But I can also see a mccarthy-era mentality going on here.
I beg, Please demonize intelligently.
Does it work with outlook express?
I know this isn't an "agony aunt" column, and that I'm not the only one to use Qwest... but I've had DSL for several years in Minneapolis- first through USWest- back in the early days when they gave me a free Cisco 675, and there was no hookup charge if I did my own "installation." I received considerably more bandwidth than I actually paid for.... those were the days. They just simply wanted DSL customers.
When USWest became Qwest, "they told me" I'd be forced to change to a qwest.net email address... well over a year later I still can access mail through both my uswest.net AND qwest.net... I still wasn't happy about the change (see other current topics about the headaches of switching addresses)
When I moved a few blocks away, DSL was interrupted for over SIX weeks. I never received a reasonable explanation why this was the case... and I fought for months over being BILLED during the transition. The Qwest bozos thoroughly melted down my account, and it took considerable effort to have my username (email address issue again) back...
The second I heard that MSN was assimilating us, I left for a local ISP- who BTW allows static IP for no additional charge (are you listening Qwest?). It took a few months to actually cancel Qwest billing me for ISP charges, but eventually they creditted the money, AND somehow they didn't screw up the actual DSL line.
I don't think Qwest knows what is going on... I STILL can access my qwest and uswest email- months after the accounts were cancelled- and I'm no longer billed... but whatever.
The real issue I have is that all the literature about the transition is spun to give the impression that the switch to MSN is a very positive thing for customers. I understand that is why we have "marketing," but the point I tried to impress to everyone at Qwest while I was jumping ship is that if I had wanted MSN, I would have gone with them in the first place. I knew even before I started with DSL that I could use a different ISP, but there were so few players that could piggy back (probably even fewer now) and the local press ran a bunch of stories about incredible hassles and waits for customers opting for non-USWest customers (even though it is still their line), etc... that I chickened out and took the easy road.
The local ISP has been absolutely wonderful. I had difficulties reconfiguring the router because they sent me some wrong info, but they actually knew what they were talking about and were not reading from scripts, and the whole issue was sorted out in less time than anyone would ever even spend on hold with Qwest.
The people I feel sorry for are like a co-worker who purchased his first PC at the age of 55 and purchased DSL..."kids these days" don't even have to listen to a modem dialing... Anyway, of course I had to set up his internal DSL modem (yuck) and hold his hand every step of hookup. He says he'll likely switch to MSN because (in my words) it is the decision forcing the least amount of action or effort on his part. He also doesn't really care about the "principles" behind the issue. Four years ago it was likely the case that only "power users" had DSL, but this has definitely changed.
The final irony is if I ever wanted to switch to cable modem, there is always Time/Warner... as in AOL!
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
You CAN buy JUST outlook for about $60, still, that is $60 more than what you should have to pay...
I had the SAME CAP/DMT quandary. I moved, switched my DSL to the new address, and come the turn-up day, NO dsl. Crap. They switched me to DMT and of course nobody bothered to even mention it, and they weren't about to credit me for the new 678 I needed. Typical Qwest bullshit.
I raised HOLY hell, but sweet as pie. At first they said they'd split the difference with me, no lie.
Of course they shipped TWO 678's, like they always do, along w/ a $700 bill. I asked for and got a meeting w/ a billing specialist in Boise, approached it politely as win/win, and in the end I walked out owing $29.95 for everything (even my phone bill that month) she having seen fit to **eliminate** my bill just for being polite yet persistent.
Then again as a WAN analyst, I have gotten REALLY good at finessing the telecom vendors. They just want somebody to love them...
And the MSNQwest deal? You gain "use" of a Intel DSL card, no ownership. That sucks for MANY reasons, of course.
I switched from Qwest to Fiberpipe when Qwest told me and my Linux box to take a flying you know what...
Take a gander at the Announcement. It seems as their XBox giveaway promotion is not enticing people to sell their soul as quickly as they had hoped. The new switchover date is set for the beginning of march.
So, you still have some time to switch to a linux/mac friendly ISP. Might I suggest Deru Internet. They offer 20 email accounts (which you can access via any email client, unlike msn) and 100mb of storage, all for about 2 bucks more than what Qwest/MSN charges.
Umm okay man. I'm sure Ricco didn't appreciate that.
Back on topic, I'd like to share my side of this fiasco:
I work for an ISP in Qwest territory with about 4000 Qwest DSL customers. I'll start at the beginning.
First we had USWest ISP services in Minnesota, well they fired all of them before merging with Qwest. Now we're only represented by a general salesperson. First clue that they want to stomp the little guy.
I'll skip a few random unsurprising screwups and mention that they limit 1580 connections per DS3 connected to their ATM. The true limit is 2000+. This is either stupidity or an attempt to charge us more. It could quite possibly be either, with their record of incompetence. We pointed out their error and got them to extend the limit, but their databases still show that 1580 limit, we just run at 150%.
Before I get into the recent issues, I'll mention that they just fired their entire techsupport staff and restructured it with a bunch of trained monkeys at tier 1, moderate fools at tier 2, and the people who actually know how DSL works at tier 2.5 and 3. It's impossible to talk to tier 2.5 or 3, internal only, and we have to call them to fix their screwups all the time. They're also firing everyone at Interprise, their ATM gurus and networking guys.
I can find Qwest's reason for this as restructuring to decrease costs. However, they'd be much better off firing the managers who think giving these great people the axe is going to save them any money. I'll stop before I rant.
Please note that MSN is considered a 'Volume ISP', or rather Qwest made up that classification when they struck their deal. Under those terms, the VISP is the 'customer of record' on the DSL line. They pay Qwest for the service and bill the customer. This is not available to anyone who cannot guarantee something like 60,000 users per (some term). In order to move away from the VISP, you have to disconnect your service and pay a reconnection fee. However, to move to MSN, there is no 7-10 day downtime.
Not only do they clearly have a manipulative advantage towards MSN here, but they are so clumsy and bureaucratic that they cost us hundreds of dollars per day.
These two examples are a perfect sample of what we go through on a daily basis:
1:
Qwest.net customer goes to MSN, hates it, wants to switch to us cuz we rock. He still has his original standard DSL equipment, but also has the MSN-only USB funkything they sent him. He has to have his service disconnected, then reorder service with full installation charges to connect to us. He calls MSN (who is the 'customer of record' for his DSL line, see above) to cancel his service. The order makes it into the Qwest billing system, but someone in provisioning didn't do their job and left him connected to MSN. Order in billing system is marked 'completed 12/17/2000' but 'dslam info' which provisioning uses says it's MSN.
Customer calls Qwest to connect to us. Order goes into their system, and when it reaches provisioning, is cancelled saying 'already has dsl'. Note provisioning never reads the billing system orders.
Customer calls us to have us place the order, we tell him we can't because he's still on MSN (the Qhost system won't let us make that order, even with customer's approval). Although he is not using his MSN service, Qwest/MSN's systems are out of sync. So customer calls Qwest and they tell him we're full of it and to 'do our job'.
Next I get a conference call from 'Ann' at the 'Executive Offices' yelling at me. I explain to her that it's their own database that says it's MSN. I call Interprise to verify that he is indeed translated to MSN and they verify it is. I can hear 'Ann' sighing in the background and she clearly could give a rat's ass that this is their fault (let's fire her and save money). I get 'Ann' off the phone and call the customer back.
We contact customer service and order another disconnection, per advice of Interprise. I console the customer and explain everything involved and how it got so screwed up. He's still to this day waiting to connect back up to us.
I passed this along to our full-time Qwest haggler and he tried to work out a solution where they could simply fix their problem in the database, but last I heard nothing happened.
Total my time: 3 hours
Total dsl admin time: 2 hours
Total customer time: 3 months
2:
Qwest.net customer moves to us, doesn't want to touch MSN with a 40 foot pole. They have the old-style CAP (carrier amplitude phase) line, the kind that uses the Cisco 675, 605 or Intel 2100.
Customer calls Qwest to order change of provider, and order is processed. However, when it either never reaches provisioning, or they don't do their job when it hits their desk. Not only did they not retranslate the PVC, they mark the order as completed!
This has happened many dozens of times.
We get a call from the customer, who is still functioning through Qwest.net, and we can't turn them up. We call Interprise and it's fixed in a few minutes. Remember, they're firing those guys.
There is a 'known software bug' per some monkey we talked to once. So fix it already!
OK, that's a lot to read, but think what we go through every single day. Either Qwest needs to pay the salary of our full-time employee whose primary job is dealing with their f***ups, or maybe those quarterly bonuses are meant to buy us off.
There is a reason US/Qworst has been rated the worst service for a decade. The red tape and internal barriers are astounding. We talk to our sales rep weekly. We've sent detailed problem descriptions which get forwarded onto department heads, and we've even talked to the DSL product manager and nothing ever gets done.
Like our DSL admin said once, "I wish Qwest would hire me as a consultant, I could come in and point out every weak point, every problem, and save them tons of money." Oh yeah, and there's a damn good reason we have one single phone line from Qwest, and that's for testing only. The other 3000 or so circuits/channels are through a phone company that treats us like the customer we are.
I work for an ISP in Qwest territory with about 4000 Qwest DSL customers. I'll start at the beginning.
First we had USWest ISP services in Minnesota, well they fired all of them before merging with Qwest. Now we're only represented by a general salesperson. First clue that they want to stomp the little guy.
I'll skip a few random unsurprising screwups and mention that they limit 1580 connections per DS3 connected to their ATM. The true limit is 2000+. This is either stupidity or an attempt to charge us more. It could quite possibly be either, with their record of incompetence. We pointed out their error and got them to extend the limit, but their databases still show that 1580 limit, we just run at 150%.
Before I get into the recent issues, I'll mention that they just fired their entire techsupport staff and restructured it with a bunch of trained monkeys at tier 1, moderate fools at tier 2, and the people who actually know how DSL works at tier 2.5 and 3. It's impossible to talk to tier 2.5 or 3, internal only, and we have to call them to fix their screwups all the time. They're also firing everyone at Interprise, their ATM gurus and networking guys.
I can find Qwest's reason for this as restructuring to decrease costs. However, they'd be much better off firing the managers who think giving these great people the axe is going to save them any money. I'll stop before I rant.
Please note that MSN is considered a 'Volume ISP', or rather Qwest made up that classification when they struck their deal. Under those terms, the VISP is the 'customer of record' on the DSL line. They pay Qwest for the service and bill the customer. This is not available to anyone who cannot guarantee something like 60,000 users per (some term). In order to move away from the VISP, you have to disconnect your service and pay a reconnection fee. However, to move to MSN, there is no 7-10 day downtime.
Not only do they clearly have a manipulative advantage towards MSN here, but they are so clumsy and bureaucratic that they cost us hundreds of dollars per day.
These two examples are a perfect sample of what we go through on a daily basis:
1:
Qwest.net customer goes to MSN, hates it, wants to switch to us cuz we rock. He still has his original standard DSL equipment, but also has the MSN-only USB funkything they sent him. He has to have his service disconnected, then reorder service with full installation charges to connect to us. He calls MSN (who is the 'customer of record' for his DSL line, see above) to cancel his service. The order makes it into the Qwest billing system, but someone in provisioning didn't do their job and left him connected to MSN. Order in billing system is marked 'completed 12/17/2000' but 'dslam info' which provisioning uses says it's MSN.
Customer calls Qwest to connect to us. Order goes into their system, and when it reaches provisioning, is cancelled saying 'already has dsl'. Note provisioning never reads the billing system orders.
Customer calls us to have us place the order, we tell him we can't because he's still on MSN (the Qhost system won't let us make that order, even with customer's approval). Although he is not using his MSN service, Qwest/MSN's systems are out of sync. So customer calls Qwest and they tell him we're full of it and to 'do our job'.
Next I get a conference call from 'Ann' at the 'Executive Offices' yelling at me. I explain to her that it's their own database that says it's MSN. I call Interprise to verify that he is indeed translated to MSN and they verify it is. I can hear 'Ann' sighing in the background and she clearly could give a rat's ass that this is their fault (let's fire her and save money). I get 'Ann' off the phone and call the customer back.
We contact customer service and order another disconnection, per advice of Interprise. I console the customer and explain everything involved and how it got so screwed up. He's still to this day waiting to connect back up to us.
I passed this along to our full-time Qwest haggler and he tried to work out a solution where they could simply fix their problem in the database, but last I heard nothing happened.
Total my time: 3 hours
Total dsl admin time: 2 hours
Total customer time: 3 months
2:
Qwest.net customer moves to us, doesn't want to touch MSN with a 40 foot pole. They have the old-style CAP (carrier amplitude phase) line, the kind that uses the Cisco 675, 605 or Intel 2100.
Customer calls Qwest to order change of provider, and order is processed. However, when it either never reaches provisioning, or they don't do their job when it hits their desk. Not only did they not retranslate the PVC, they mark the order as completed!
This has happened many dozens of times.
We get a call from the customer, who is still functioning through Qwest.net, and we can't turn them up. We call Interprise and it's fixed in a few minutes. Remember, they're firing those guys.
There is a 'known software bug' per some monkey we talked to once. So fix it already!
OK, that's a lot to read, but think what we go through every single day. Either Qwest needs to pay the salary of our full-time employee whose primary job is dealing with their f***ups, or maybe those quarterly bonuses are meant to buy us off.
There is a reason US/Qworst has been rated the worst service for a decade. The red tape and internal barriers are astounding. We talk to our sales rep weekly. We've sent detailed problem descriptions which get forwarded onto department heads, and we've even talked to the DSL product manager and nothing ever gets done.
Like our DSL admin said once, "I wish Qwest would hire me as a consultant, I could come in and point out every weak point, every problem, and save them tons of money." Oh yeah, and there's a damn good reason we have one single phone line from Qwest, and that's for testing only. The other 3000 or so circuits/channels are through a phone company that treats us like the customer we are.
Time for a few facts. Needless to say, try to switch.
:)
MSN _WORST_ rated isp on dslreports.com
The letter states on the front that prices will not increase (or something to that effect), on the back, it states that additional rates will apply, so msn is probably more expensive than a local mom and pop - and will be certainly more expensive than your qwest service ($5 a month or so, depending on region).
Switching over to another isp is a major hassle, though the same thing happens with msn, they have to tear down your dsl circuit, and rebuild it. Give about a week for qwest to rebuild a circuit because of the volume that they have at the current time, and all the corporate bullshit. I'd say some kind of fuckups happen around 1% of the time.
MSN call times - 6 1/2 minutes or less, essentially high school age kids / parolees are hired at $6.50 an hour. Forget about help from these people - no doubt they have good intentions and some may actually be good techs (albeit masacists(sp??)), but it takes about a minute to get user's information into the db and to bring up the user info, so. . .
Ask the tech to check the service logs to see if
a) you are correctly translated (i.e. no "fail" in the bottom of the service logs).
One last thing - people in tier 2 are under pressure to fix tickets, so occasionally they will just close the tickets without even working on them, and that is plain fucked up.
DSL Service Center 1-800-247-7285 1,2,4
Call these people to switch isps. MF 6-6 PST
Good luck I guess....
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
ask the fish head anything you want to they wont answer they can't talk.
fish heads fish heads Rolly Polly fish heads
fish heads fish heads eat them up yum!
I took a fish head out to see a movie, I didn't have to pay to bring it in.
fish heads fish heads Rolly Polly fish heads
fish heads fish heads eat them up yum!
They don't wear sweaters, there not good dancers they play tennis, they don't play drums
fish heads fish heads Rolly Polly fish heads
fish heads fish heads eat them up yum!
Rolly Polly fish heads in Italian restaurants, sipping cappuccino's with oriental women ? Ya.
fish heads fish heads Rolly Polly fish heads
fish heads fish heads eat them up yum!
( I have a good karma and don't care myself either)
http://saveie6.com/
I was using Qwest for DSL in Minnesota when I signed up, back in June of last year. I did this because the other ISP was VERY vaguely documented (even on their own web site) and Qwest ppl sort of seemed to know nothing about how to do it. Which goes along with the discussion below here, about how most DSL/cable customers really DON'T know what's best for them, just take what's offered right away and leave it at that.
;)
:)
Anyway back with the story, THE day I found out about the whole Qworst/MSN deal, I called their customer service and DEMANDED to be switched, which got me some verbal equivalent of blank stares and a number of supervisor conferences (while I was nicely put on hold, of course). That was scheduled to take 3 days, go down one day and be back up by the next morning.
Well I went down and didn't come back up...not the next day...or the next...after 3 days of this I called Qwest and my new ISP and asked what the hell was wrong. Qwest replied that everything was looking great on their end and all was perfect, while my new ISP said they couldn't see me at all. I had DSL carrier signal but no traffic at all. I called Qwest back and told them things were NOT perfect and fix it dammit! Anyway to make a long story short (too late) the ISP and Qwest went back and forth for ANOTHER week and finally Qwest sent a tech out...who promptly discovered (after about an hour of phone calls) that nobody had bothered to check my modem config and realized that Qwest used PPP and the new ISP used bridging to ATM. 2 1/2 more hours on the phone allows this guy to reconfigure the modem by HAND and things start working again. By now he's been on overtime 1 1/2 hours and doesn't want to see me ever again
Moral of the story: Choose the local ISP first. Since I moved there I've been extremely happy with their service, support, and uptime. Actually better than qworst's uptime by a long shot. Still not up to the quality I had from Speakeasy when I was on them in Boston but hey, these guys are local.
Anyway that's my story
"Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
What a novel and non-corprate-drone way to follow the necessary procedure to protect trademark property.
- Peter
INsigNIFICANT
I am still amazed at the multi-tier confusion that is the US DSL business.
I suppose it makes sense, sort of.
Canada:
If you have DSL... then whoever your ISP is owns all the involved gear except the telco lines. There is no DSL provider separate from the ISP (Maybe there is back east in Toronto.. I dunno, nowhere I've been though).
I really think the problem here is that you have just too many cooks.
You have a telco, who provides wiring
You have a DSL provider, who provides like, layer 2 networking over that wiring
You have an ISP who provides the rest. YIKES!
In many cases here, It's ONE company.. the telco. Why? Becuase.. nevermind monopolies and such.. it JUST MAKES SENSE
Look at it.
The telco owns the switches & property around the switches. So it's easy for them to get the CO DSL gear as close to their switches as possible.
They already have a network in place, with huge bandwidth.
OF course, we are a smaller market, so I suppose that has something to do with it. but hey, IT WORKS.
Now... I've also dealt with a DSL provider who was separate from the phone company.
1. Qwest sucks.
2. MSN sucks (see dslreports.com).
3. Qwest phone monkeys don't know what they're doing.
These are, for the most part, undisputed opinions. That doesn't change the fact that Qwest has no obligation to point you to their partner's competition. Informed consumers do their own research.
I can't stress this enough: Qwest sucks. They are the single worst company I've ever dealt with. I'm still fighting with them over charges for the 678 router I received 3 months after I was supposed to. I've gotten so many credits over their fuckups that *they're* paying *me* $20 for two routers, one of which was mistakenly sent to me by the incompetent morons in the warehouse. They also like to tell people there's an "outage" in the area when the lazy techs don't feel like looking into problems.
Qwest might suck, but they have never once pressured me into signing up for MSN over my current local ISP. Even better, they never even *suggested* MSN to me as an alternative. So while I'd like to see Qwest slammed, there are much better things to slam them for than this.
-Legion
Actually, here in Minnesota the PUC and AG's office told Qworst it IS slamming. I switched from basic Qwest Service (because it SUCKED) to VISI.com about 5 months ago. They switched me to visi, then slammed my connection to MSN.com. When I called I yelled and screamed, and called them names... it didn't work, so I called back with a PUC rep and an AG staffer on the phone. They told me that I was going to have to pay all of the fees associated with switching from MSN to VISI... I explained that I use Linux, hate Microsoft and had written them both email and a signed return receipt letter explaining that I did NOT want to be on MSN under ANY circumstances. They told me that was nice but I still had to pay, the PUC rep spoke up and explained that the conversation we were having was being recorded, that there were reps from the PUC and the AG office on the phone, and that it sounded like a case of classic "slamming" because Qwest was a party (as an ISP) to the whole thing; they also mentioned that it was fraud to have forced me to switch and then make me pay to switch back.
My experiences were similar to those mentioned above. I am fortunate that I am a developer by trade, knew how to configure a CISCO DSL modem by hand and chose a great local ISP who walked me through setting up my modem to bridging ATM mode from PPP mode.
The main point of disappointment I had was that the process for switching to MSN was EXTREMELY easy. From telemarketers who called on two different occasions to remind me that the switch was coming to multiple promotional mailings. Ultimately, if I did nothing about it, I would be switched automatically. This level of service was NOT given for alternative ISPs. For example, I had to make SEVERAL phone calls to Qwest customer support, got re-directed to wrong extensions multiple times just to get a list of alternative local ISPs that would support Qwest DSL.
As I mentioned above, I am a developer by trade, so when a local ISP tells me I'm going to have to reconfigure my DSL modem, I say, "OK, no problem". However, a majority of people out there are not "technical" and would probably hang up the phone right then go with MSN because it was so much easier. To me, that is a HUGE problem.
I don't mind Qwest making a deal with Microsoft to give them access to their Qwest customers. What I
do mind is making alternative choices so difficult that only the people who are dead set NOT to become MSN subscribers will jump through all the hoops required. Everyone else will "live with MSN" as they don't either have the time or support to choose anything else.
--I don't mind the school of hard knocks, it's those darned refresher courses I hate. =)
You are exactly correct. The way to fix the problem is to get a couple employees that do nothing but deal with Qwest. However to get them to do this you need to make it worth their while. Promise them $150 million over 5 years or so in services and you will get what you need.
The telco I work for did something like this last year and we now have several Qwest employees who work in our offices processing our orders and dealing with the rest of Qwest.
Qwest needs to satisfy the regulators, so if you work with them and show them how you can help them do this you can get what you need. Of course if you're too small they really don't (and won't) care.
I'm not saying this is the way it should be, just that this is the way it is.
The problem is Qwest doesn't direct customers to the qdslonline.com web page for the transfer. There is a set of CGI apps with verbage defined by the contract between Qwest and MSN.
And basically, there are several problems. The worst is that they imply MSN is a similar service for a similar ammount of money. At no point is it disclosed:
MSN does not support Front Pag Extentions for Web Pages
MSN does not have any news service
MSN does not support non-ms mail packages
MSN does not support non-ms OS's (Although they attempt to determine Mac)
QWEST does not disclose that your DSL circuit is being placed on your bill as under "Gift Billing" and that you will not longer have the ability to make changes to your DSL other than calling MSN.
Finally, in Minnesota, certain aspects of the MSN switch and changes to the text on the QDSLONLINE.COM web page violate an agreement U S West had with the state and the local ISPs in MN.
However, Qwest is banking that they can say it's an FCC issue. The FCC of course won't do squat.
I'm posting this though a Visi account now (in Minnesota!). They are superb -- reliable, and reasonably priced, no bullshit ... and as a bonus I get shell access and a little web space on a Solaris box.
Unforunately, I still have to go through Qwest for my DSL line and modem. When I signed up for the service, which they installed about 6 weeks late, they (oops!) accidentally charged me $600 for the DSL modem, and it took them months to get the charges off my bill. Is lack of competition hurting consumers? Well, let me ask you this: If Qwest had real competition, would they get away with this shit?
I moved to Portland, Oregon about 10 months ago and immediately hooked up with Qwest DSL. Believe it or not everything went smoothly - perhaps because it was a new line and a new number.
Another friend of mine had moved here shortly before me and received a few services on her phone line that she didn't want - and explicitly refused - during her setup call. After several calls to Qwest she was able to get those services removed but was unable to get a refund for the months in which she was charged for these services.
Two other friends of mine *both* received extra DSL modems they didn't order or want. One of them was able to *refuse* the package when it arrived and wasn't charged. The other one wasn't so lucky when she sent the package back. Qwest couldn't verify that it had come back to them, and she spent several phone calls negotiating with Qwest reps about getting a refund. She was basically told it was her fault for not getting the tracking number at the time of her refusal. Both of my friends received extra charges which were a big hassle to get removed.
During some period last year I managed to somehow miss paying some phone bills. To get my account reinstated I had to send $175 or so dollars to Qwest which they would *hold on to* for a whole year. If I managed to keep up with my bills from now on I would get the money back - though I believe Qwest will keep all - or most - of the interest earned on that money. C'est las vie.
When I had purchased my DSL modem last year Qwest was running a "deal." $195 for the modem with a $100 rebate after three months. (More interest for Qwest - woohoo!). What I didn't know was that to get the rebate I had to send in a claim form. I must've missed it in my phone bill. I never read the crap advertisements that come lodged in with my bill. I never saw the refund reflected on my bill, and recently thought to chack up on this. I wrote a polite email to Qwest who informed me I would have to email the marketing firm handling the refund claims. I did so, and just last week - believe it or not - I received my $100 back from Qwest. I suppose this could be considered holding money in escrow, but I received none of the interest earned on my 100 bucks.
So I moved recently and decided to transfer my DSL account and ISP to the new place. Unfortunately I moved to a different part of town than my old exchange covered so I had to get a new phone number. I placed my DSL order and followed up by calling Qwest a week later to check the details of my order.
First, I needed no DSL modem. I already had one. So I canceled the modem. Next, I needed to retain my Qwest ISP service since Macs aren't covered by MSN. Everything seemed cool. I'm told to just call up Tech Support to hook my account up correctly after the service starts. I will be hooked up in 2 weeks, they tell me - December 21.
Around New Year's Eve I start to wonder where my DSL is. It hasn't been turned on and it's way past the due date. A couple days later I received the Qwest CD package with my ISP info. They've given me a whole new ISP account - a new email address and everything. I don't want it, so I call up Tech Support to straighten it out. About 30 minutes later I'm told it's all set, that my original ISP account will remain and my new one will be terminated. Cool. But they inform me that my service due date is January 7. Ugh.
January 15th rolls around and still I have no DSL service. I spend two hours getting transferred around only to learn the following:
1) My new ISP account is indeed scheduled for termination as it should be - including the DSL line!
2) For the first tie I learn that my Cisco 678 is no longer supported. It won't work because it's a "CAP" modem. I'm told I need a newer enhanced modem. I was incredulous. A 678 is a 678 isn't it? Nope, the helpful representative explains that it's like the difference between 8-Track tapes and CDs. "It's different inside, see?"
At this point I'm thinking: Whatever! The speeds are exactly the same, the model number is the same, the plug wiring is the same. Nothing is gained by going to some new format - except Cisco gets to sell a whole new generation of 678s. I actually tell the rep I don't believe him. I don't know who to believe. This is the first I've ever heard of it. So where do I send my old modem for a refund? The rep tells me that I get to keep the original 678. I'm free to keep it forever because I bought it and I paid for it. Gosh I feel lucky. I need my DSL dammit so reluctantly I place an order for a brand new $95 modem, complete with cables and instructions.
As I get shuffled around the phone tree I confirm with a tech that indeed I do need a new modem. The old one is a "CAP" modem while the new one is a "DMT" modem. I feel grateful for this deep insight.
3) I visit my friend and tell him about the modem changeover I've been forced to make. He plops into my hand a 678 DMT modem and tells me to refuse the modem when it arrives. Send it back and keep my $95. I thank him, run home and configure the modem for DHCP. Voila, at last my DSL is connected and working!
So how much time have I wasted? How much of Qwest's resources have been eaten up by little me - a single customer? How much extra work has been done because no one told me up-front that I had to change to a new modem? How much effort am I wasting by sending this modem back? How much *more* time will I have to spend to get my billing straightened out so that I won't be billed from the 7th until today - or is it Dec 21st until today? What if Qwest won't refund the $95 for the modem I'm about to refuse from them? And never mind that my ISP account isn't even associated with my new phone number but only my old one! And now what's happened to my disk space quota?? Suddenly I can't upload stuff to my web site any more!
Communication is the single most essential ingredient in any successful and efficient organization. I don't need to point out the irony here, do I? In my 10 short months in this region of the country Qwest has proven to me that they are disorganized, inefficient, underhanded, greedy, predatory, and - above all - monopolistic. The poor oversized beast is certainly dysfunctional. I only hope they get some professional help before they kill themselves.
-- thinkyhead software and media
Until a few weeks ago, whenever someone would ask what our (Qwest Tech Support) number was, I would say 1 877 777 9569 (I think that is what I told them), instead of 1 888 777 9569.
So one day, I decided to call our number and play with the tech (note hatred towards most coworkers for their stupidity)...so I called...I immediately dropped the phone in horror...I had referred a couple hundred people to a gay porn number... =P
forget it.
In a moment of weakness I did the switch this week end on our WQorst dial-up. What a disaster. We only use the account a few hours a week to check email. My girl friend choose qwest as part of a package ($13.95/month). I spent the whole weekend trying to get email working. Finally I figured out that they had not activated the email account and I could not get that concept through to the MSN SOB support monkey and asked to speak to his supervisor. No joy, you can not speak to a supervisor and they will not give you a last name or other unique ID.
I called QWorst and frankly they had a friendly support folks who seemed to know what they were doing, she answered the phone with her employee ID. When I explained how unhappy I was with the switch she suggested that I should speak to her supervisor and tell him. BTW, the supervisoe explained that ALL of my personal data from QWorst was shared with MSN. For as unhappy as I am with QWorsts business practices I have to say that I always enjoyed good tech support.
That said, I'm dumping MSN and moving to eskimo.com, a local provider that has been around for 20 years. Yes Virginia, there was a thing called BBSs, Fido and other coolness, but I digress....
-s
I immediatly went out to switch ISP's when I heard of this merger back in October. The switchover itself was mildly painless. It actually took QWest near one week to change the dsl signal line from Qwest.net over to xmission. While getting the change rolling, they did mention that there was a charge of $30 for modifying my existing broadband/telephone service mandated by the US Government. I fought this as far as I could claiming it was unfair to force me over to an ISP which I did not choose or charge me for changing ISP's when I had no choice otherwise. I got clear up to some supervisor with her own 800 number to be told that there is nothing they can/will do about it.
Just to give a heads up, it is going to cost you $30 to drop MSN, a couple days downtime (no more than one week hopefully, and whatever startup fees for your new ISP.
Is that really fair?
-stimpy