NY Times on Anime

An anonymous reader submitted a NY Times story (you know what that means: annoying free registration required) about anime as Japanese Film's 2nd Golden Age. It covers a lot of ground, as well as a lot of really amazing films including (obviously) Miyazaki's work, but also stuff like Ranma 1/2, Perfect Blue, Cowboy Bebop and Evangelion to pick a handful of my favorites. In short, it's a good piece with its share of criticisms and commentary, but it's cool to see a mainstream source talk up something that was so much subculture just a few years ago.

Comments

Not a huge anime fan, but...

[instinctdesign]

Hayao Miyazaki's "Princess Mononoke" was released by Miramax in 1999 in a dubbed version, featuring the voices of Claire Danes, Gillian Anderson and Minnie Driver...

I'm not a huge anime fan, but if you want a good introduction to the genre, see Princess Mononoke. However, what the NYTimes article fails to mention is the issue with dubbing (unless I missed it), stay away if you can. Even the well known cast that Disney was able to get for Princess Mononoke pales in comparison to the original Japanese with English subtitles. It took a significant effort on the part of the fans for Disney to finally decide to include the original dialog, and it was well worth their effort.

Re:Not a huge anime fan, but...

[iluvpr0n]

If you don't speak Japanese, then watching it in the original language is pointless. Especially if you miss the entire visual aspect of the movie because you're too busy keeping up with the english subtitles.

If you've ever watched a dub while reading the subtitles you'll note the huge difference you'll find in most animé translations. They tend to make the dub easily understood by your average 8 year old (even in a non-kids show), while the subtitle translation is usually a more literal translation (occasionally some half-assed companies release "dubtitles" that just uses the watered-down dub script, which is fairly annoying).

Also, by watching a fair amount of Japanese movies/tv you'll begin to pick up on certain bits of the language anyway, which can help you understand the various intonations and techniques employed by the voice actors, which helps you understand the characters/plot/motivations better.

Also, some of the dubs are done without much care at all, so yes, it may be in English and you can understand what they're saying, but if they picked up Joe Six-Pack down the street from the recording studio to dub it, you'll find that there isn't much skill in the acting job. There are exceptions (Cowboy Bebop I will admit has a decent dub), but in general the Japanese actors are more experienced and more care is taken in the production of voice acting.

iluvpr0n.

Re:Not a huge anime fan, but...

[John_Booty]

Also, by watching a fair amount of Japanese movies/tv you'll begin to pick up on certain bits of the language anyway,

Very true. A good example of this are the honorifics added to character's names... -chan, -sama, -san, -kun, -senpai, etc. These can often sum up the relationship between two characters in a word, and are an important part of Japanese.

There's no direct translation for them into English though, so they're usually just left out of the dub/sub job. This is a good example of something you're missing even when watching a well-done translation job.

In my experience, whether or not you like subtitles often (not always, but usually) comes down to how fast you can read. I read really quickly; therefore I don't feel like reading subtitles takes away from my enjoyment of the animation.

It also depends on how much you're interested in Japanese culture and sticking close to the original script, rather than just seeing robots and people exploding. It also depends on whether or not you sit down to watch a movie, or just have them on in the background while you're doing something else...

Mainstream/Subculture

[ShaniaTwain]

..it's cool to see a mainstream source talk up something that was so much subculture just a few years ago.

Is it? I hate to be elitist or something, no wait, I do like to be elitist. Why can't the mainstream get its own subculture? It seems to me that OFTEN when a subculture goes mainstream it becomes BORING..

Ah well, the Counter Culture always seems to become the Over-the-counter Culture.

Re:Mainstream/Subculture

[rgmoore]

It seems to me that there's much less risk of anime becoming boring than other things that go mainstream. After all, anime already is fairly mainstream- in Japan. That means that even if anime becomes modestly popular in the U.S., the Japanese market is still going to be the thing that drives the industry, which should help to keep it from getting sucked down.

If anything, I'm very happy that anime is becoming more popular. I find that the movies show up much better on the big screen than on video, so increasing popularity means that I get more chances to see the stuff as it was meant to be seen. Next Friday, for instance, I'll get the chance to pick between two anime that are being released that day: Metropolis (the movie that triggered the article) and Escaflowne: A Girl in Gaia. Last year I was able to see a bunch of anime on the big screen, and its increased popularity obviously had a lot to do with that. That sounds like something to celebrate, not to complain about.

Thats the real artistry...

[Brightest Light]

Where Western animators struggle to create a convincing illusion of life, Japanese animators are more interested in capturing single expressive gestures, or in evoking a particular mood through the careful use of color.

I think this is the real difference between anime and western animation. While disney spends millions of dollars on computer animation, going for the "almost lifelike" feeling, anime such as "Graveyard of the Fireflies" spends far more time conveying the overall feeling of sadness (and no annoying musical numbers either).
I think that anime in general can be far more emotional than western animation will ever be.

Re:Thats the real artistry...

[AvatarADVathome]

The problem is that comparisons between anime and US animation tend to take average Japanese TV series and compare them to a Disney movie. Sure, the Disney movie looks better... it probably had fifty times the budget to make an hour and a half of movie, whereas the anime is probably 26 episodes long. At a certain level, money has to come in.

Re:Thats the real artistry...

[90XDoubleSide]

Where Western animators struggle to create a convincing illusion of life, Japanese animators are more interested in capturing single expressive gestures, or in evoking a particular mood through the careful use of color.

Isn't it interesting how this is reversed in the CG world? Square Pictures was the one going for "convincing illusion of life" and ending up with lifeless characters, whereas Pixar and PDI use heavy stylization and do a better job of, "capturing single expressive gestures, or evoking a particular mood through the careful use of color."

Also, getting back to cel animation, it's interesting how far Disney Animation Studios has fallen behind Japanese studios since The Lion King (yes, TLK is still the highest grossing animated film ever, but no one would disagree that Mononoke looks better/is a better film). The stuff they're doing now looks much worse than the Anime of the late 80s.

No-reg-required link to article from Yahoo

[Seth Finkelstein]

The article is available on Yahoo, with no registration required, at:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20020120/en/ani me_japanese_cinema_s_second_golden_age_1.html

Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)

And another NY Times article

[tb3]

Also in this morning's Times, an article about how "Cardcaptor Sakura" was changed to "Cardcaptors" for the American audience. Interesting article, it reads like it was written by an otaku,

old article?

[garyrich]

Actually a pretty good article, but it reads like it has been sitting on the the shelf for ~18 months. Mentions Mononoke as Miyazaki's newest work (no mention of Sen to Chiro) and the comments on Astro Boy reflect that he must have recently seen the (semi) restored original pilot episode. Actually sounds like he was in the room at the Long Beach, CA film fest in ... late 1999?

not a bad piece, but...

[Sodakar]

I must agree with CmdrTaco that it's great to see Japanese Anime get some major press. However, it's going to take more than that to get people to understand what's so great about Anime. It's going to take all of us to continue sharing the art with our friends, and for studios to put up more money/risk to promote it.

Roger Ebert can talk all day about how Miyazaki has awesome films and give 2 thumbs up to "Princess Mononoke," but if Disney/Miramax think that a "blockbuster opening weekend" can be realized from opening "Mononoke" in 8 theatres US-wide, they are highly mistaken. (as you can imagine, it only made $144k in its opening week) At its height, "Mononoke" was showing in 129 screens -- a far cry from the 3000+ screens that a major movie like "Harry Potter." While "Mononoke" made over 100 million in Japan, its final US gross was under 3 million (both US dollars)

What went wrong? Well, first off, the art of Anime is definitely not as well accepted or understood in the U.S. due to historical differences in culture. In Japan, mature themes of politics, war, and tales of the human experience are spoken and told of through comics and anime. In the U.S., "animated feature" = "Bambi" Hrm...

If the studios who push Japanese Anime want to make it worth their time/money, they're going to have an uphill battle, as they're going to have to convince everyone in the US to go see the film on opening night, and promote the hell out of the film... (eg, money) Ultimately, they have to try to change the culture of a nation, and it's probably not going to happen overnight.

Solution? Keep making money off of $30 DVD's with 4 episodes of "Cowboy Bebop" and "Evangelion" -- one day, the sales will reach a high enough point that statistically -- it'll be worth bringing to the theatres... Until then... the safest thing is to keep selling those pricey DVD's... And... keep sharing them with your friends who have no idea what anime is...

Why is this a Good Thing(tm)?

[TargetBoy]

It seems like everytime a "mainstream" source picks up on something that was a "sub-culture", all that anyone who enjoyed the subject of the "sub-culture" has to look forward to is the dumbing down and commercialization of what they previously enjoyed.

NY Times Free Registration

[fishboy]

if i could speak out on the constant repetition and yimmer-yammering on the need for free registration at the ny times site:

first, it is stated here so often that all but the most infrequent users must be, as i am, sick to death of hearing that the nyt requires free registration. we are grown-ups and can handle it if our browser directs us to something that we might have to give a fake email address to. "dammit, those bastards at /. didn't warn me about this!" i vote to drop the warning.

second, if the free registration bothers everyone so much that it must be stated, why is it that so many stories here are referenced from there? i mean, the stories come from us. does this not imply that the nyt is a valuable tool? so why do we complain about the free reg if so many of us use it?

third, why can't we get around the idea that the new york times isn't going to just give away its hard work for nothing? the feeling that i get when i read that free registration is required is that it shouldn't be, that it should all be free free free. i, for one, can handle a meaningless free registration for the excellent content they provide. it is not as if they come knocking on my door when i hit the submit button.

drop the free registration warning!

my peace.

Anime enjoyed due to great storytelling

[MtViewGuy]

I think anime has finally become mainstream because we are getting a deluge of releases here in the USA that are either officially licensed (CPM, ADV Films, AnimEigo) or brought over by the production company themselves (Bandai).

Because of these official releases, we're getting most importantly uncut anime, which reveals some truly astonishing storytelling, to say the least. Who would have thought that Saber Marionette J would be way better than anyone anticipated? Or the groundbreaking Neon Genesis Evangelion? Or be beautifully-animated The Vision of Escaflowne? Or the much-liked Gundam Wing? Or the serio-comic adventures of the three Slayers series?

Even Sailor Moon can be surprisingly good storytelling if you can get the uncut versions. We're very fortunate that Pioneer is bringing over the third season (Sailor Moon S(uper)), perhaps the best season of the series with very top-notch storytelling.

In short, Americans are discovering why anime can be quite good--they use superior storytelling to compensate for somewhat subpar animation.

Re:Anime enjoyed due to great storytelling

[MtViewGuy]

Then, switch over, and watch Blue Submarine, Grave of the Fireflies, or Serial Experiments Lain. We're talking serious eyecandy here. Anime took its inspiration from Disney films, but in true Japanese fashion, has improved upon the original to a great degree.

I've seen these anime you've mentioned and they are intended for a much older audience than the anime you normally see on television in Japan. I believe that Serial Experiments Lain was originally shown on a late night slot when it first aired in Japan some years ago.

Tell me, are you sure in regards to Sailor Moon you're watching the original uncut episodes shown in Japan or the hacked-up episodes that DiC did back in the middle 1990's? The original episodes have a tone often quite a bit more adult than you imagine. Indeed, the end of the first season caused major controversy in Japan because the main characters actually died, something not normally seen for anime aimed at the 8-14 female audience.

I still remember when Neon Genesis Evangelion was first shown in Japan--it was extremely controversial, to say the least. The last two episodes of that show just drove everyone nuts, forcing the producers at GAINAX to make the Evangelion movies, which was just as controversial! Or watch all 39 episodes of Revolution Girl Utena--the phrase mind fuck (pardon my French! ^_^;; ) definitely applies here because trying to figure out this series makes you want to reach for the painkiller in very short order. :-/

Re:A counterpoint:

[Lothar 0]

A counterpoint to the counterpoint, especially in the Appendix on American anime culture. Susan Napier's bias in favor of anime fan subculture is much more academic and lacks the axe to grind that the anti-anime webmaster seems intent to wield.

NY Times Missed a few important things

[drinkypoo]

In their quest to (briefly) examine the cultural significance of anime, they completely failed to note the "cultural training" aspect of anime, perhaps culturally one of those most significant things that anime has to show us - As anthropologists, of course. Any anime otaku knows that the most significant thing it has to show us is shower scenes.

What I find most interesting about anime, on an intellectual level, is what children's shows especially (like Ranma 1/2) but really a great deal of anime has to say about Japanese cultural roles. While re-re-rewatching Ranma 1/2 OVA I could only laugh about the characters attempting to pigeonhole each other into their respective gender roles, especially in the case of Akane and her cooking. There is a great contrast between Akane's character actually in her element, where she is a strong fighter, and the kitchen, where they keep putting her. That's fine in the sense of comedic relief, but both she and the other characters (including her father) treat her as if she's useless simply because she can't cook.

It's also quite interesting (and also unexplored in the article) what's in kids' anime in Japan - Shower scenes, gratuitous breast shots, et cetera. While I agree that it's not such a big deal, it would be less questionable if the naked girls in question didn't universally posess pornstar figures. How many girls in Japan have a willow-thin body and DD-cup breasts? Especially at the age of 16 or so? Not too bloody many.

This is just a typical fluff piece by the NY times. It's good to see someone so mainstream doing a piece on the cultural significance of anime, but they're several years too late (This would have been timely three years ago when anime was just starting to gain massive cultural acceptance with the rapidly flowering social and economic maturity of the so-called "Generation X") and they aren't examining enough of the things which really make anime special. Someone in charge over at NYT basically just said "Give me a couple thousand words on the significance of Anime and we'll tuck it in here to make more slashdotters complain about required registration."

Re:anime rejiggered for a western audience

[MsGeek]

Your correct in your assumptions, anime has been really pg-ified for the american audience, however why do the cable and sateliette networks feel that the demographics of anime watchers ar limited to 5-13 -- a little iffy at that.

You've got to hand it to Cartoon Network's Adult Swim bloc...they showed Cowboy Bebop with minimal cutting. They refused to show a few episodes so soon after 9/11 because they were about terrorists, but better NOT to show them than to show them cut to ribbons.

I look forward to seeing the whole of CowBe without the cuts and in subbed, rather than dubbed format, but according to reports the dub actually was pretty good and faithful to the original.

Actually I can think of one dub that is actually BETTER than the sub..."Shineman" is supposedly way better dubbed than subbed. The people who wrote the dubscript for "Shineman" basically were very funny people who took the absurdity of the story and cranked it up even further. "Shineman" is a complete satire on the "Sentai" live-action hero shows...think Power Rangers. It also pokes fun at Japanese corporate culture. Definitely worth a look.