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Lindows Reviewed
Well, the wait is finally over. Lindows, the system that promises to
bring Windows software to Linux, has finally been released in
sneak-preview form. You can catch a
first
hand review of the system on
NewsForge.
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...why not just use XP or 2K? They run Windows apps better than Lindows, and sure seems just as stable as Linux... Not to mention the better hardware and software support.
Right?
"trying to run Windows programs in a user account will cause problems."
Wow, even emulating Windows' very own security model...
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
It's not the OS it's the user that sucks. If it's user friendly, you get stupider people.
Call Linus, I think we have a new slogan.
The single biggest issue I see here *is* that Lindows has you do everything while running as root.
:-/
That is the *stupidest* thing I have ever heard of. Aren't something like *half* of the script kiddie root hacks out there depending on someone being dumb enough to go onto the net while logged in as root?
Also, there was no mention of any kind of firewalling on this setup. I have a linux server running in my home office. I can say from experience that if there is no firewalling (ipchains/iptables) installed, configured and running, that you are *asking* for trouble.
I understand that this is a Linux distro for the Win98 crowd, and that Win98 isn't secure in the least, but I really hope that the Lindows people give the Win98'ers a fighting chance. Otherwise the k33bler pr0n elves are going to be visiting some new Lindows boxes *real* soon....
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
I preffer to stay Anonymous (you know - NDA stuff)
/opt/wine-lindows). But - you can move the wine out and play it on Mandrake, SuSE, Redhat or Slackware quite easily ;)
;)
To make long story short - it's based on Debian Woody, it got Xandros (previously Corel) nice file manager, and it got a special version of wine which can install Office 2000 very nicely including Explorer 5.0
You can't install Explorer 5.0 or 5.5 seperated - the process fails after download. You cannot install Windows Media Player 7.1 since it's saying "unsupported OS" and Windows Media 6.4 simply thinks the URL's are wrong.
Running Office 2000 (not 97, not XP) runs pretty nice although there lots of GUI bugs there needs to be fixed.
Biggest shit - it installs and doesn't open users - so all done as root, and even if you open users you won't be able to use the "wine" stuff since it needs root premissions or some serious hacking (it's on
Does it worth the money? yes! I need to run Office 2000 - and that gives me the option to use Office 2000 (and I cannot use other Linux office stuff - need to connect to exchange and just the Ximian exchange connector costs $70 - so $29 more won't kill me).
And since it's a debian woody, then hey - APT heaven is here - give me an hour and the distribution will be totally customized.
Some other stuff - it uses XFS as filesystem, it doesn't install nvidia binary drivers in default (need to do it manually), kernel is 2.4.14 + tons of patches, it tries to load every module on earth and frankly - doing a damn cool job. They'll need to fix the network and priting stuff - it sucks as it is now.
Definately recommended if you're planning to use it in corporations.
Oh, as for who did the wine stuff? lets say it's not transgaming, you know who
MeshMesh
To my dismay, the reviewer's experience with the preview LindowsOS exactly mirrors what you get with a recent build of WINE. Many applications run, but there are serious problems with installers.
This is not to bash the WINE developers who are making great progress with limited resources. I wish them, and Michael, all the success in the world. I just wish that Michael Robertson would commit some of his development staff to improving the core WINE code and contributing it back to the WINE project.
Shameless plug: Do you need step by step instructions on configuring WINE to run popular Windows applications? Check out my web site, Winecentric
Um...why do we need another totally insecure OS? From the review, I got the impression that, thus far, Lindows is a dumbed down XWindows, with Wine and ungodly horrible security.
Linux users won't want it because they won't want to be root all the time. Windows users won't want it because Windows apps won't run as well.
Admiteddly, this is not a full release, but even so, what is the point of purchasing this? With Wine running, a tempermental app at best, you lose a lot of the stability of Linux. With X running as root, you lose the security of Linux, and gain all those nice outlook viruses. And if the primary target is current Windows users, well, I just cannot see a reason they would switch.
A dumbed down X with Wine just ain't gonna cut it in the market, I have to believe.
I am a windows sysadmin by profession (its paying the bills today folks, save the zealous remarks) and we have very good uptime numbers here, but it's a full time job even for a small shop.
Basically, I think you're right on. Saying "well, linux is just inherantly a stabler system" is akin to saying, "you know, most of those old mechanics who build hot rods in their spare time have cars that run much better than the average driver." Yeah ... what did we expect?
Cheers,
-- RLJ
Ask this question again and again. Ask it to yourself everytime somebody says "Linux on the desktop".
Linux can make it on the desktop, as long as they don't try to be a "me-too" Windowsalike.
Free top-of-the-head ideas for a Linux-based focus:
Linux needs to find its niche (small/medium servers is a good start) and excel there. I can predict that Lindows will soon join Loki on the bench.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Oh. Right. Real insightful. Excuse the dripping sarcasm.
"It's not the OS it's the user that sucks. If it's user friendly, you get stupider people."
How self contradictory can you get? It's *not* the OS. No matter how user friendly or unfriendly, it's the user. Period. End of line.
If it's user friendly, you get a pleasant, useful, powerful, computing experience. That's it.
A user friendly OS and program with a stupid person does not make the OS insecure or the program flawed, or the UI wrong. It just means the user is stupid.
User friendly does not imply a stupid user.
GPL Deconstructed
After reading this article. It basically sounds like they are going to take debian, add some KDE skins, tweak the KDE menu and configure WINE so that they have a stable and reliable version that can run as many windows programs as possible.
This sounds basically like the crossover plugin done totally wrong!
There is no reason (technically) that this needs to be a dedicated Linux distribution. The only thing I can think of is that they are doing this for marketing and/or political reasons. I am sure Michael Robertson knows what he is going from a marketing perspective but he is trying to succeed in a technical market.
The one thing that we should learn from this is that it might be time to a dedicated wine-bundle project.
Specifically... Take wine snapshots and QA them and try to get them as stable as possible. This would of course have to be coordinated with the wine project.
This should also include bundling wrappers around Windows programs so that they can be installed easily.
IE you could have a debian package named wine-bundle-ie which would of course install Internet Explorer by downloading it on the client machine similar to the way crossover does it.
This would get you the best of both worlds... Windows apps on a Linux machine and would be an Open Source collaboration.
I try to run 100% Open Source/Free Software but it would be nice to complete invoices for my clients who use Excel.
Kevin
Unfortunately, history has told Lindows a bit, but I'm not sure they listened. Hardware compatibility issues aside, IBM OS/2 had a great platform for running windows, unix (with some free software) and os/2 apps all on the same box at the same time. It was awesome, 32 bit pre-emptive multitasking running 16bit windows apps. If an app crashes, just ctrl-esc and kill it. Unfortunately, IBM practically couldn't give it away. It didn't take.
.02
If people want to run windows apps they are going to choose windows. If they do run Lindows, Lindows itself will not be able to keep up with changes microsoft implements just to cost companies like lindows money.
Just my
-Sean
From the preview, it sounds like Lindows tries to be both Linux and Windows at once, but fails on both counts.
...
The newbie user playing around as root (maybe without a password?) is an obvious problem issue, especially if rootage is required for running Windows software in the first place. I need hardly mention that it's a security issue if all those Outlook viriis get to run as root
Also, as most Windows apps seem to be nonworking at the moment, there better be a LOT of improvement in this field before release, or Lindows will be about as popular as a can of BBQ sauce at the three little pigs' house. It needs to run IE, it needs to run Office, and it would be just great if it'd run Windows games (yeah, right).
Btw, an oversimplified install might be just great for the newbies, but not for anyone else. I think the WinXP Pro install was oversimplified, but at least it let me add non-root user accounts and reconfigure hardware if I liked. Besides, I don't think Lindows is going to be used mainly by newbies - at least initially, it's going to be used by people looking to make the switch between Windows and Linux and wanting something that will let them run both kinds of apps, so they needn't convert 300 word DOCs to RTF or suchlike.
Congrats to the Lindows people for building stuff like autodetecting hardware into the installer - that stuff is always nice. Mandrake already has this and does it somewhat well, but I still remember the pain of having to feed Debian the I/O port adress of my CD-ROM back when last I tried to install it. I never did finish that install, as it was never able to find my bog standard Logitech PS/2 mouse. Oh well.
Conclusion: Get Windows apps to run and Lindows will be interesting! Ship it like it is today, and it will end up in the OS trashcan with BeOS et al.
Quality, performance, value; you get only two, and you don't always get to pick.
There's probably some truth to both sides of the issue. It's true that careless or incompetent administration can compromise the security and stability of even the best designed system. But it's also true that a well designed system requires less care and less competence to maintain as a reasonably secure and stable system.
Take dealing with services as an example. A well designed system has unnecessary services turned off (or even better, not installed) by default, so that any flaws in those services won't compromise the system. This means that a casual user, who won't be running them anyway, has one less thing to worry about and doesn't need to be as smart or careful to keep his system in good shape. Similarly, a system that allows users to spend most of their time in an unpriviledged mode is less likely to cause problems if/when those users eventually stumble onto trojans/viruses/worms. Adding in an extra, necessary step to make those malware programs really vicious makes it that much less likely that they'll cause problems.
Is good security something that you can buy off the shelf? Of course not. Security is a process, and administration is the key part of that process. But the quality of the product can make that process easier or harder.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
I fear the license wars about to erupt.
314-15-9265
Let's say you're Mr. Joe Generic PC User, and you run solitaire, Outlook Express, some Internet Explorer, and maybe you have an AOL dialup account. You also run a couple of other programs you happen to like, such as Quicken or Word.
What is the incentive for you to change?
Think about it. The biggest killer of Office sales is not StarOffice or KOffice, but older versions of Office. People want something that just "gosh-durn works". They don't care about upgrading, and they certainly aren't interested in the fact that the new Athlon 2GHz processor is faster than the equivalent Intel.
If you've ever done PC helpdesk, you know the inevitable deer-in-headlights look that regular computer users get when you say "the U word": upgrade. "Will my applications be okay? What about my documents? How about my email?" Change scares people! Even changing to Windows XP is scary because it doesn't look like other versions of Windows.
I can't even convince people to get rid of 9x and switch to Windows 2000, even though I can promise them stability and more configuration options. The panicked look comes onto their face, and then they say "You know, Windows 98 isn't that bad, and it runs this and this and this, and what if my documents get deleted?!" These people in no way are ready to switch to something that is not Windows, and the more someone makes a big deal out of it, the more scared they get.
I think the parent post has a valid point. If what you are using works, why change? Personally, I'm still on the crusade to rid the world of Windows 98 and switch people over to 2000/XP, but even that is a long and unforgiving ride. If Lindows doesn't even run the applications these people need, forget it. That battle isn't even worth fighting.
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Max: What?! What?!
Inigo: Are you the Miracle Max who worked for the suits for all those years?
Max: The suits' stinking lawyers sued me. And thank you so much for bringing up such a painful subject. While you're at it, why don't you give me a nice tongue clamp, and run current through it. We're closed! [Max closes a flap over the door hole, but Inigo still knocks] Beat it or I'll call the Business Software Alliance!
Fezzik: I'm on the Business Software Alliance.
Max: You are the Business Software Alliance!
Inigo: We need a miracle. It's very important.
Max: Look, I'm retired. Besides, why would you want someone the suits' stinking lawyers fired. I might vaporize whatever you want to make the miracle.
Inigo: It's already vapor.
Max: It is, eh? I'll have a look. Bring it in. [They enter. Max examines the laptop.] I've seen worse.
Inigo: Sir... Sir.
Max: Huh?
Inigo: We're in a terrible rush.
Max: Don't rush me, sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles. You got money?
Inigo: Distro CDs...
Max: Sheesh! I never worked for so little; except once and that was a very noble cause.
Inigo: This is noble, sir. It's software is... crippled... child processes on the brink of starvation...
Max: Are you a rotten liar.
Inigo: I need it to help avenge my DR-DOS prompt, murdered these twenty years.
Max: Your first story was better. Where's that compressed air. It's probably hiding your porn, huh. Well, I'll ask it.
Inigo: It's vapor. It can't tell you.
Max: Ooooohh! Look who knows so much, eh! It just so happens that your friend here is only mostly vapor. There's a big difference between mostly vapor and all vapor. Please open the CD-ROM drive. [He inserts the compressed air nozzle] Now, mostly vapor is slightly running. Now, all vapor... well, with all vapor, there's usually only one thing that you can do.
Inigo: What's that?
Max: Hype it in Wired and hope for an IPO. [Max shoots air into laptop and yells at it] Hey! Hello in there! Hey! What's so important? Whatcha got here, that's worth running for? [Max pushes on laptop's space bar]
Laptop: [barely audible] Lin....dows...
Inigo: [excited] Lindows! You heard it! You could not ask for a more noble cause than that.
Max: Sonny, Lindows is the greatest thing in the world; except for a nice CCD - Caffeinated Choco-Death, where the caffiene is nice and strong, and the marshmallows melt. They're so perky. I love that. But that's not what it said! It distinctly said, 'bit hose'. And as we all know, 'bit hose' means a fat pipe. So, you were probably surfing for warez and it segfaulted...
Old Woman: [interrupting] Liar!! Liar!! Liarrrrr!
Max: Get back, witch!
Old Woman: I'm not a witch, I'm your wife. But after what you just said, I'm not even sure I want to be that anymore.
Max: You never had it so good. [Max smiles at Inigo]
Valerie: [Max's wife] Lindows, who said Lindows, Max?
Max: Don't say another word, Valerie... [Inigo looks on in disbelief]
Valerie: You're afraid. Ever since Microsoft fired him, his confidence has shattered.
Max: [yelling] Why'd you say that name?! You promised me that you would never say that name!
Valerie: What, Microsoft?!
Max: [cringes] Ahh!!
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
[Valerie is chasing Max around the room yelling. Max is covering his ears]
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
Valerie: [now in a sing-songy voice] Microsoft... Microsoft! Microsoft! Microsoft! Microsoft!
Max: I'm not listening!
Valerie: Lindows, processes expiring and you don't have the decency to say why you won't help!
Max: Nobody's hearing nothing!
Valerie: Microsoft! [She continues to yell 'Microsoft']
Inigo: [interrupting] This is the user's true love. If you heal it, it will stop Microsoft's monopoly!
Max: [to Valerie] Shut up!
Inigo: Thank you. Thank you.
Max: Wait, wait. I make it better, Microsoft suffers?
Inigo: Lost sales galore!
Max: Ha ha!! That is a noble cause! Give me the distros! I'm on the job!
(Mad props to Robert Zabaga for his transcription of the original script)
normal(adj)- people who don't sit on slashdot all day wondering why everyone else isn't building robots [DECS]