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Lindows Reviewed
Well, the wait is finally over. Lindows, the system that promises to
bring Windows software to Linux, has finally been released in
sneak-preview form. You can catch a
first
hand review of the system on
NewsForge.
← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)
The state of DVD playback on Linux is not what it is on Windows. Maybe Lindows along with the Linux DirectX equivelant libraries will allow Windows software DVD players to work?
I watch DVDs all the time and find it annoying that Linux doesn't have decent DVD playback. Hmmm maybe I should help write one...
Here's a neat point from the article .exe or .pif screensavers attached -- or even with infected .rpms."
"There's something scary about an imaginary LindowsOS-from-Windows convert, happily running as root, downloading emails with infected
I thought, now people will be complaining about stupid lindows users. But think about it, if everyone was as as smart as most linux users, their windows boxes wouldn't be as fucked up w/virii or whatever from outlook.
Here's my point. It's not the OS it's the user that sucks. If it's user friendly, you get stupider people.
Not only did the installation process not give us the opportunity to add users other than root, it didn't even explain that we *should* add users other than root, didn't tell us that the account was root, and even tended to discourage us from entering the optional security password for root, because, "if you lose this password it cannot be recovered."
Excellent. It sounds like Lindows has taken Linux a giant leap towards the ease-of-use that modern desktop users demand. This might actually be competitive in the marketplace!
...why not just use XP or 2K? They run Windows apps better than Lindows, and sure seems just as stable as Linux... Not to mention the better hardware and software support.
Right?
"trying to run Windows programs in a user account will cause problems."
Wow, even emulating Windows' very own security model...
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
Let's see -- you cannot really be anything other than root, it can be hit by a Window's virus, lots of apps just *poof*,... How will this give Lindows credibility with the Linux crowd?
Running as root.
The article first states that the installation is limited because it doesn't ask you to add users other than root.
Why should it? Being that Windows will let any user do anything... why shouldn't lindows? I know XP has an 'admin' account, but that doesn't do much. Why should this be more secure, it wouldn't be like windows enough for the people.
Seriously, the only thing that XP's admin vs. non-admin users is the ability to add more users and other lame protections. It is a step in the right direction but isn't enough.
Regular users on my system have been able to delete critical files and change some settings. The main thing I noticed is that Red Alert won't let you play as a regular user. Just won't play. I had to give my girl friend a admin account so that it would start up. Kinda defeats the purpose.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Alright, it's a beta, but this seems to me to be the worst of both worlds. You get none of the flexibility and hacker-friendliness of Linux, and your Windows apps are even more unstable than under Windows. Furthermore, you pay $99 when Linux is free and get a UI that looks familiar but undoubtedly has some quirks. Exactly what benefit does this provide over Linux+Wine+fvwm95 except an easy installation process that there's no reason can't be matched by a Linux distro?
It looks like KDE. The article also says that 99% of the programs he tried didn't work. I'm probably going to get bitched out, but I'm still a skeptic.
The other thing, that has already been pointed out, is about the email worms... if you have to run outlook as root, and you get one of those babies... well... *poof*
That said, it looks nice... I'll be impressed when they can demonstrate more stability running windows applications.
But then again, M$ has been trying that for about 2 decades.
Humorless sig goes here.
The single biggest issue I see here *is* that Lindows has you do everything while running as root.
:-/
That is the *stupidest* thing I have ever heard of. Aren't something like *half* of the script kiddie root hacks out there depending on someone being dumb enough to go onto the net while logged in as root?
Also, there was no mention of any kind of firewalling on this setup. I have a linux server running in my home office. I can say from experience that if there is no firewalling (ipchains/iptables) installed, configured and running, that you are *asking* for trouble.
I understand that this is a Linux distro for the Win98 crowd, and that Win98 isn't secure in the least, but I really hope that the Lindows people give the Win98'ers a fighting chance. Otherwise the k33bler pr0n elves are going to be visiting some new Lindows boxes *real* soon....
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
"Windows users who are trying out Lindows won't be concerned about this, though, so if they are the target market for LindowsOS, the "running as root" thing shouldn't be a problem."
Okay, just because Windows 98 doesn't have security, that means Lindows shouldn't either...? All of the NT-based Windows OSes do have the ability to not run users/programs as root. This is a ridiculous step backward for security, and the "just because Windows 9x does it" excuse is poor at best.
If Lindows becomes popular, viruses will abound for that platform. Is this really any better than Windows? Now Linux has lost the main advantages it has over Windows, namely:
-- It's "free" (interpret that as you will)
-- It's more secure.
This is Microsoft's dream come true -- a chance to point out that not only is "Linux" less secure than Windows, but "Linux" is also not free (never mind that Lindows != Linux; Microsoft also has trouble remembering the difference between GPL and open-source.)
The bottom line is that Lindows as it stands today is not a boon to the Linux community, and it could cause a dangerous black eye to those currently promoting Linux on the desktop. Tread carefully.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I preffer to stay Anonymous (you know - NDA stuff)
/opt/wine-lindows). But - you can move the wine out and play it on Mandrake, SuSE, Redhat or Slackware quite easily ;)
;)
To make long story short - it's based on Debian Woody, it got Xandros (previously Corel) nice file manager, and it got a special version of wine which can install Office 2000 very nicely including Explorer 5.0
You can't install Explorer 5.0 or 5.5 seperated - the process fails after download. You cannot install Windows Media Player 7.1 since it's saying "unsupported OS" and Windows Media 6.4 simply thinks the URL's are wrong.
Running Office 2000 (not 97, not XP) runs pretty nice although there lots of GUI bugs there needs to be fixed.
Biggest shit - it installs and doesn't open users - so all done as root, and even if you open users you won't be able to use the "wine" stuff since it needs root premissions or some serious hacking (it's on
Does it worth the money? yes! I need to run Office 2000 - and that gives me the option to use Office 2000 (and I cannot use other Linux office stuff - need to connect to exchange and just the Ximian exchange connector costs $70 - so $29 more won't kill me).
And since it's a debian woody, then hey - APT heaven is here - give me an hour and the distribution will be totally customized.
Some other stuff - it uses XFS as filesystem, it doesn't install nvidia binary drivers in default (need to do it manually), kernel is 2.4.14 + tons of patches, it tries to load every module on earth and frankly - doing a damn cool job. They'll need to fix the network and priting stuff - it sucks as it is now.
Definately recommended if you're planning to use it in corporations.
Oh, as for who did the wine stuff? lets say it's not transgaming, you know who
MeshMesh
So we know what their secret to running windows apps is: Wine.
What I find unsettling is that this sneak preview states 99% of Windows applications go "poof" on install (which is not very surprising for anyone who has ever used wine). Yet we've seen screenshots showing Internet Explorer on top of KDE.
So another question stands: are those screenshots real?
To my dismay, the reviewer's experience with the preview LindowsOS exactly mirrors what you get with a recent build of WINE. Many applications run, but there are serious problems with installers.
This is not to bash the WINE developers who are making great progress with limited resources. I wish them, and Michael, all the success in the world. I just wish that Michael Robertson would commit some of his development staff to improving the core WINE code and contributing it back to the WINE project.
Shameless plug: Do you need step by step instructions on configuring WINE to run popular Windows applications? Check out my web site, Winecentric
Here's a quote:
So.... let me get this straight... it needs a copy of Windows to run, but still costs $99. And it makes Windows 95 look stable. It is inherently _less_ secure than Win95 was. Even though you still ran as psuedo-root under Win95, you could run AntiVirus software. LindowsOS doesn't have any AV that works.
My favorite quote:
This is a beta and Robertson cautions that it is not expected to work properly
LOL! Beta (as opposed to alpha) is at least supposed to work somewhat properly; it's there to look for bugs. This seems more like "here is LindowsOS, it doesn't work, but we want you to spread some FUD and trick people into thinking it does.
And I don't think that the GNU/Hippies would be too happy about the $99 price tag that includes pretty much all their tools... and that's about it.
... I can send .doc files to RMS? :)
It will be interesting to see if linux users will be willing to spend money on this software, particularly in light of the fate of Loki.
SONY. Because caucasians are just too damn tall.
Ask this question again and again. Ask it to yourself everytime somebody says "Linux on the desktop".
Linux can make it on the desktop, as long as they don't try to be a "me-too" Windowsalike.
Free top-of-the-head ideas for a Linux-based focus:
Linux needs to find its niche (small/medium servers is a good start) and excel there. I can predict that Lindows will soon join Loki on the bench.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
After reading this article. It basically sounds like they are going to take debian, add some KDE skins, tweak the KDE menu and configure WINE so that they have a stable and reliable version that can run as many windows programs as possible.
This sounds basically like the crossover plugin done totally wrong!
There is no reason (technically) that this needs to be a dedicated Linux distribution. The only thing I can think of is that they are doing this for marketing and/or political reasons. I am sure Michael Robertson knows what he is going from a marketing perspective but he is trying to succeed in a technical market.
The one thing that we should learn from this is that it might be time to a dedicated wine-bundle project.
Specifically... Take wine snapshots and QA them and try to get them as stable as possible. This would of course have to be coordinated with the wine project.
This should also include bundling wrappers around Windows programs so that they can be installed easily.
IE you could have a debian package named wine-bundle-ie which would of course install Internet Explorer by downloading it on the client machine similar to the way crossover does it.
This would get you the best of both worlds... Windows apps on a Linux machine and would be an Open Source collaboration.
I try to run 100% Open Source/Free Software but it would be nice to complete invoices for my clients who use Excel.
Kevin
Unfortunately, history has told Lindows a bit, but I'm not sure they listened. Hardware compatibility issues aside, IBM OS/2 had a great platform for running windows, unix (with some free software) and os/2 apps all on the same box at the same time. It was awesome, 32 bit pre-emptive multitasking running 16bit windows apps. If an app crashes, just ctrl-esc and kill it. Unfortunately, IBM practically couldn't give it away. It didn't take.
.02
If people want to run windows apps they are going to choose windows. If they do run Lindows, Lindows itself will not be able to keep up with changes microsoft implements just to cost companies like lindows money.
Just my
-Sean
From the preview, it sounds like Lindows tries to be both Linux and Windows at once, but fails on both counts.
...
The newbie user playing around as root (maybe without a password?) is an obvious problem issue, especially if rootage is required for running Windows software in the first place. I need hardly mention that it's a security issue if all those Outlook viriis get to run as root
Also, as most Windows apps seem to be nonworking at the moment, there better be a LOT of improvement in this field before release, or Lindows will be about as popular as a can of BBQ sauce at the three little pigs' house. It needs to run IE, it needs to run Office, and it would be just great if it'd run Windows games (yeah, right).
Btw, an oversimplified install might be just great for the newbies, but not for anyone else. I think the WinXP Pro install was oversimplified, but at least it let me add non-root user accounts and reconfigure hardware if I liked. Besides, I don't think Lindows is going to be used mainly by newbies - at least initially, it's going to be used by people looking to make the switch between Windows and Linux and wanting something that will let them run both kinds of apps, so they needn't convert 300 word DOCs to RTF or suchlike.
Congrats to the Lindows people for building stuff like autodetecting hardware into the installer - that stuff is always nice. Mandrake already has this and does it somewhat well, but I still remember the pain of having to feed Debian the I/O port adress of my CD-ROM back when last I tried to install it. I never did finish that install, as it was never able to find my bog standard Logitech PS/2 mouse. Oh well.
Conclusion: Get Windows apps to run and Lindows will be interesting! Ship it like it is today, and it will end up in the OS trashcan with BeOS et al.
Quality, performance, value; you get only two, and you don't always get to pick.
There is nothing wrong with reverse engineering. Reverse engineering brought us AMD as a competitor to Intel, as well as IBM clones -- it's complicated, as AMD also pays royalties to Intel for other IP. IANAL, but I vaguely recall some federal(?) statutes which actually protect the right to reverse engineer. Any lawyers out here are welcome to correct/elaborate.
Also relevant might be that MS has only filed a trademark infringement suit against Lindows, not a claim of "illegal" reverse engineering, and I think if your post was right, MS would have brought it up a while ago.
b
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
I'm failing to see the value-added synergistic paradigm.
So the problem is that over-userfriendlyness breeds stupid users? Can't we try to educate the users? If i had several million dollars of venture capital and a one way ticket back in time to when the market boom was still high, here's what i'd do to fix the primary problem with desktop computing:
...
:)
I'd create a linux distro designed to TEACH FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES of computer use to the users... things like coherent file organization, user permissions, networking security... just some basic stuff, as well as how to actually use the linux distro that we (my company) would also spend a lot of time setting up to be more secure by default, and well-configured (read: easy to use, but not masking the actual functionality behind all the pretty widgets) so that not only could it be a quality operating system for experienced users, it would be a perfect stepping-stone for morons who are used to having they're brains spoonfed the babyfood that windows and macos feed them.
The result? A *significant* increase in the relevant education level of computer users exposed
to this operating system.
potential <subjective>positive</subjective> side-affects:
1)decrease in M$ desktop marketshare due to higher level of user-education (once you've used *our* OS you *know* why windows sucks... you've become enlightened enough to see past all they're FUD and marketing hype into the rotten core of the thing)
2)world peace. (oh yea... i'm on a roll now heheh) believe it or not, education is a good thing... teach people more about computers and get them more fascinated in the TECHNOLOGY aspect of the computing, rather than just the pretty colors and the ability to send instant messages to minors across the planet and you've actually awakened more of the thing this world needs the most: intelligent thinkers who make judgements based on integrity and quality and other high-minded concepts that joe-sixpack doesn't want to take the time to try to understand.
3)(ready for this) SECURITY... yes, the internet will become a SAFER PLACE. more people will understand WHY you don't run an exe that comes into your mailbox from a stranter (or often from a co-worker) and why email-hoaxes can't be real and
*soapbox rant*
bah. i don't know, i'm just fucking around with those last two, but seriously though, there are IMPORTANT intellectual concepts that affect not only computing, but LIFESTYLE, that the Linux community has a FAR better grasp of than the "windows community"... and truthfully the ONLY salvation we have from Microsoft taking over the whole world has it's source in simply finding a way to impart this knowlege unto everyone OUTSIDE the linux community that we can, and we're not going to be able to do that by scaring them with our super-intelligent operating system, and we're not going to be able to do that by trying to get the government on our side (we'll get crushed like a kid getting picked on in the schoolyard for telling on a bully) and we're sure as hell not going to do it by sitting on our collective asses and looking down our noses at those who "just don't get it"
the common populace CAN be taught, as long as you present it in an easy-to-consume bright shiny fun-looking semi-affordable package. once you've done that you can teach them anything you want, we just need to pick the right thing to teach them.
*getting off soapbox now*
thanks for your time
Microsoft has now put security priority #1 and I don't know what that's worth, but I would bet that they're going to start getting away from running everything as "root" on the latest and greatest MS OS.
Having Lindows log in as root and run everything as root is backwards. At a minimum, create users that have near root access but not EVERYTHING.
It seems like the time spent developing this "piece of art" could be better spent writing documentation and GPL software to manage linux for dummies.
Then there wouldn't even be a need to run Windows software.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Right there, one of the most important reasons to use Linux is thrown out the window. The only thing we need now is a Linux port of Lookout, err... I mean Outlook, and Melissa / ILOVEYOU / Sircam / whatever will follow.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
It doesn't seem much more effective than Wine, with the exception of a more seamless installation process. Granted, its a beta, and if the problems are more lindows based than api based and can be easily fixed then things might work out better. I love the way it runs all the outlook worms. At least Windows users will feel comfortable in that regard. Now just need to rig up the occasional :)
bluescreen and things will be just peachy.
Part of the issue of running as root is probably for the simplicity of installing programs. While a non-root user can install programs on linux, he can't necessarily do it so its available for the entire system, and as a security issue, you don't want to. The installer might have suid privilages that can get around this problem, but then you risk installing infected files, and once again, working around the very security features that make linux a more secure choice over windows in the first place.
An option would be an installer that installs every program into its own directory structure, and no programs can be installed suid. Each program would need its own registry subset, etc. This would of course cause conflicts with programs such as norton virusscan that expect to be able to search the whole system, and programs that interact with other programs and expect the native insecurity of windows to operate.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
Attempting to run windows apps on top of another OS is HOPELESS.
You will get NO support from any software vendor for running their windows app on anything other than... tada; Windows.
OS/2 had just about the best windows sub-system ever, but it too had problems running certain windows apps.
No business in its right mind is going to depend on this software. If Linux is to make inroads on the desktop, it will need native desktop applications. Not Java apps, not emulated Windows apps; native desktop applications.
Fortunately it's getting them and some of them are quite good (Star Office is usable, for instance).
And yes, people will pay for them if they are GOOD.
I posted this yesterday since I am a Lindows sucker. Funny thing is unless your name is michael, cmdtaco, Cliff, timothy, hermos or a couple of others, good luck on getting your stuff posted. Slashdot has gotten to stuck-up for it's own good. They don't take everyday-joes posts any more and if the do, they take the post, check it out and call it their post. Slashdot is starting to suck. To bad...
I fear the license wars about to erupt.
314-15-9265
What you don't get is that those of us who think Linux is much better as it is than Windows aren't celebrating.
It's only those who somehow think the most important thing is Linux getting really really high desktop market share right now who won't scoff at this "lindows" crap. Because to get really really high desktop market share right now, you'd basically have to make Linux into Windows. And then, Linux would suck.
So just be aware when you throw the word "we" around.
The enemies of Democracy are
It's because of the court case. According to a recent article on internetnews.com:
"Lindows.com Founder and CEO Robertson said that his firm would provide proof that no business was done in Washington, let alone Redmond, and talked about it in a public statement.
'We're looking forward to showing the Court the widespread use of the term 'windows' or variations thereof by literally hundreds of companies which are not endorsed or sponsored by Microsoft. The fact that Microsoft has chosen not to sue these companies demonstrates their true motivation in this case is to crush competition from a promising new technology which threatens their illegally obtained monopoly,' said Lindows.com CEO, Michael Robertson."
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You don't get the difference between obligatory and optional.
Lindows is emulating Windows, so what? There are dozens of distributions out there and Lindows will be just one of them.
I don't understand how these guys got to this point. Clearly Robertson is connect to some kind of VC funding hose, or he would be working on his second startup in 10 minutes.
But there's next to nothing to this distro:
But clearly what Linux has been waiting for to turn into windows is progress on WINE . When it works, Linux will run the Windows apps the rest of the world uses. Until then, the idea just won't work.
In this situation the straightforward thing to do is to hire first-classes WINE hackers and move the project forward with the force of money. And why Lindows isn't doing this is beyond me. Perhaps some kind of brand-development trick? Unless the VCs have some other tricks up their sleeve, I don't see how anyone's gonna get their money back. Anyone know anything about why Lindows is proceeding this way? Anything tidbits on FC?
Wine is not GPL license - at least READ the license, it's more oreinted to the BSD style license.
Hetz
Hetz (Heunique)
Running as root? I did that back in 1989 when I first used Solaris. back then,I didnt know shit. I LEARNED! Root access is a scary thing. LInux needs as little bad press as it can right now. These are very volatile times. Having Lindows users with root access having hte machine blow up is NOT what the Linux movement needs! Please, PLEASE Lindows, try to make root access unavailable! I think if you MUST use root, have it a randomly picked password that only the "system" knows, and su to it automagically when a root function needs to be performed.
Be afraid. Be very afraid. This will be worse than The AOL Christmas years ago.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Linux can make it on the desktop, as long as they don't try to be a "me-too" Windowsalike.
Personally, I think making a "Windows-ish" distro is the best move the Linux community can make. Linux's biggest selling point is not that it's more stable, has a better design, is more secure, etc. Linux's biggest selling point is that it's free (as in beer).
Think about it. On the one hand you have an OS that runs all of your games, all of your apps, feels familiar, and costs 100-2000 dollars per computer (Windows XP). On the other hand, you have an OS that does all of the same things but is free (Linux). Which one are you going to choose? More to the point, what is your management going to choose? Having a "windowsalike" distro is a potent weapon for corporate acceptance.
Of course, if you don't like your Linux Windows-flavored, just use a distro more to your liking. You've got other choices, you know.
This
No, it's more like 99%. It is hard to break into a secured box. Script kiddies have a field trip breaking into the insecure ones -- there is so many of them to choose from! If the construction industry took security as seriously as certain companies in computer industry do, nearly all houses would be built out of cardboard.
I understand that this is a Linux distro for the Win98 crowd, and that Win98 isn't secure in the least, but I really hope that the Lindows people give the Win98'ers a fighting chance. Otherwise the k33bler pr0n elves are going to be visiting some new Lindows boxes *real* soon.... :-/
If by some chance, this Lindows thing does take off, I can totally see the windows morons claiming that Linux is insecure. It says in the article that This wonderful OS can already run Outlook worms. I guess it wouldn't be windows-compatible without it :-)
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
For all the hubbub that Steve Gibson made about Windows XP and it's raw sockets taking over the world, burning your toast, and painting your room pink, I would think Lindows would make him, and other over-reacting folk, well, over-react.
Sure, you need root access to use raw sockets, but if Lindows forces you to run as root (let's be honest here, if it doesn't work as a regular user you're only viable option is to run as root). So now we have Linux machines with computer dolts running as root who also have the ability to unleash various macro viruses upon the world.
That's double plus ungood.
1. Runs windows apps and games as well as Windows
2. Is stabler than Windows
3. Doesn't require Windows
4. Doesn't do away with the things that make Linux a good OS
Someone please explain to me how Lindows even comes close to this. I have Windows. If I'm going to use something else to run Windows programs, it has to work better than Windows. Period. Even by the most optimistic things I've read about this, it doesn't look as if it's going to.
And what was that in the article about it booting in Windows, or dual-booting with Windows, but not dual-booting with Linux? They're kidding, right?
I have to agree, it is nice for linux/wine to support windows and i look forward to being able to play all my games in linux w/ wine (or native).
But ur forgetting what rose PC+MS to power, it was all the software available and its marketing. realy we should work on our own apps,s/w and shout out abo ut those.
So wine is nice, but not any more important then any other linux app. and we (community/ppl who care) realy need to work on pr and more office & user type apps. and most importantly linux Docs, HowTo's and Tutorials to help educate others
I wont be getting/trying any of the Lindows/Mandrake Gaming Edition linux flavours ever i disagree with the whole idea, linux is linux(or unix) but niether are windows and thank god.
want more/better games, push the openGL2 and openAL movements.
-Trevelyan
Let's say you're Mr. Joe Generic PC User, and you run solitaire, Outlook Express, some Internet Explorer, and maybe you have an AOL dialup account. You also run a couple of other programs you happen to like, such as Quicken or Word.
What is the incentive for you to change?
Think about it. The biggest killer of Office sales is not StarOffice or KOffice, but older versions of Office. People want something that just "gosh-durn works". They don't care about upgrading, and they certainly aren't interested in the fact that the new Athlon 2GHz processor is faster than the equivalent Intel.
If you've ever done PC helpdesk, you know the inevitable deer-in-headlights look that regular computer users get when you say "the U word": upgrade. "Will my applications be okay? What about my documents? How about my email?" Change scares people! Even changing to Windows XP is scary because it doesn't look like other versions of Windows.
I can't even convince people to get rid of 9x and switch to Windows 2000, even though I can promise them stability and more configuration options. The panicked look comes onto their face, and then they say "You know, Windows 98 isn't that bad, and it runs this and this and this, and what if my documents get deleted?!" These people in no way are ready to switch to something that is not Windows, and the more someone makes a big deal out of it, the more scared they get.
I think the parent post has a valid point. If what you are using works, why change? Personally, I'm still on the crusade to rid the world of Windows 98 and switch people over to 2000/XP, but even that is a long and unforgiving ride. If Lindows doesn't even run the applications these people need, forget it. That battle isn't even worth fighting.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I have been hearing about the stability of windows for some time now, I guess they got their problems with earlier versions ironed out, and have been wanting to give it a try.Not that I can recal ever having problems with my setup.
Everyone tells me their killer app the IE browser rocks.The trouble is application support. I would like to try some of these applications but I really dont want to give up the stuff I am used to. Like the gimp, xine, xmms, gaim, enlightenment, soundtracker, gcc, vi and LTSP(for all my net-appliances scattered about) just to mention a few I use most. I know there is comparable apps but they dont have all the features I need.
Now I have the opportunity to try some of these killer apps without having to sacrifice the things I have come to like so much, except hard drive space.
I have two words to summarize: bottom feeders
Contribute to the community or get out of the game.
If you want users that are educated in the ways of any OS, you've got to WTFM. Write the ****** Manual.
Face it, unless you make it accessible to the just-outta-college temps and the middle-aged secretaries that I see in _my_ offices, you aren't going to gain desktops.
Man pages won't cut it. Giving them the source and telling 'em to figger it out won't cut it.
Lindows is doing at least one thing right: They're working on making the install procedure as painless as possible. When Linux installs as easy as Windows or Mac OS X, you'll be reducing a big barrier to adoption.
The real barrier coming up is finding ways to get otherwise intelligent people to understand the Unix world. I'm not going to recommend Linux to anyone non-geek co-worker until they don't have to learn crazyness like this:
I want to change the file permissions on this file so that noone can read, write or execute this file but me... Let see... 4 = read, 2 = write, 1 = execute. Therefore I have to chmod 0700
It's not sexy or cutting edge. It's also the weakest part of most projects I've seen.
My father is a blogger.
While I'm already pretty nervous about installing precompiled binaries on my system, it seems like the success of LindowsOS would bring with it the attention of Windows virus writers.
If this distro became popular (even only in a business setting), Linux would be in the same boat as Windows as far as viruses go. Any binary packages you would download would be more likely to contain a virus, and who installs rpms and debs as a user?
Of course this risk is already there, but increased popularity would make it more risky.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
I believe the original goal of Lindows was to provide an alternative to the users that don't want to constantly pay for upgrading the Windows operating system, as well as to provide a way to convert users from windows to linux by providing a medium. This means, the primary market are the users that don't want to, and probably haven't yet upgraded to 2000/XP yet and are probably still vulnerable.
As my friends who are diehard windows fanatics keep telling me, I am simply not familiar with the rock hard stability and unbreakable security of the latest Windows operating systems. I am not aware if a regular user is able to install any program on the system without that program comprimising system security or crashing the system.
However, if those users are still running 98, then they're still subject to the same security issues we've all been joking about for the last 5 years. And if they move over to Lindows, and assume the default root user for running all programs, they'll be no less vulnerable on that platform. My bash in this regard is appropriate.
And if after 15 years Microsoft finally got it perfect, well good for them. Move beyond that. If Lindows is supposed to help us replace it, it needs to provide all the good things that windows has provided over the years (primarily the userfriendliness and wealth of applications) and not drag with it all the bad things, that for the sake of not bashing windows constantly I will omit this time.
And remember, NT 3.51 was pretty stable in its own right, but they managed to screw it up on later operating systems, even in the NT line, and service packs have typically created more problems than they've solved. I'm glad you think the latest incarnation of windows is perfectly bugfree and secure. That doesn't mean I need to ignore their previous track record, even if now security is their topmost priority. If being secure and bugfree had been their goals from the beginning we wouldn't have had so many fun years worth of material justified bashing them over. Of course, that might have meant they would have had a slower production cycle, and competitors might have gotten the upper hand in some markets, and it was far more important to Microsoft that they remain the industry leader, product quality be damned.
But thats just my opinion.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
>Actually, if you ask 100 people off the street
>what operating system their computers run,
>you'll be lucky if you get 95 of them that use
>computers, never mind have one.
Another good point... I guess I was looking at it from the point of view of someone in Austin, we're a very wired and tech-saturated town.
>Hell, most of them won't even buy counterfeit
>Levi's if they can avoid it. "It's not the real
>thing, it's not as good."
Heh, I just had this vision of Aunt Tillie commenting that Linux is just a "cheap knock-off of a proper namebrand OS".
-l
Why is it that everytime something mentioning windows comes up, this braindead mine vs. yours battle begins? Who gives a shit? Windows users like windows no matter what, and those who can't take it any more seek alternatives. Linux is an alternative for some and a deterrent to others.
At the end of the day, we all know what we like. Stop the nonsensical posts, and stick with the subject at hand. Please.
It really discourages me to read so many people writing such mean things about a product admittedly in a beta stage. I read through post after post just hoping to find someone that had a positive thought, but maybe my browsing level was set too high.
What seemed most frustrating to me is that people are complaining that Lindows lacks feature X, or doesn't have any advantages over "apt-get Y". Actually, I regard this as a positive step forward. My understanding of Lindows is that it is a customized Linux distribution intended to be a drop-in replacement for users who only use basic Office applications. I appreciate and encourage Linux developers to create narrow, focused distributions in addition to huge general purpose ones. Imagine a store where you could purchase a Linux distribution that only runs MAME; a distribution that only runs Word and Excel for example; a web server distribution; and so on. Each distribution would behave (for the user) a lot like a game console - a piece of hardware that performs one useful function.
I for one would be quite happy to see Lindows succeed in its market niche, and engender many imitators. Reading the review posted on NewsForge, I really only got the impression that the reviewer was constantly disappointed because you couldn't add users, it was tough to open a shell window, and the WINE emulation wasn't much better than the off-the-shelf source.
On the other hand, the reviewer seemed to be complaining that there weren't any options available when installing Lindows. Considering the market niche the product aims for, this is good design; it enables customers to begin appreciating their new product rapidly, without having to worry about creating lots of users and passwords and downloading lots of updates.
Please, encourage entrepreneurs like Mr. Robertson to continue working on new products. His product may not be for everybody; and he may need to improve its security and WINE support, but in the end he might just release a useful product.
This is why I always try to be as unfriendly to people as possible -- who wants stupid friends? Most people just accuse me of being anti-social. If only they knew!
True dat. And why choose a laptop, of all things, to install it on? Laptops are notoriously picky and have the most wacked out hardware configurations imaginable. Can you say proprietary?
This guy gets 100 lashes from the Afrosheen Wet Noodle.
There's nothing evil about it. The coder of Mplayer was a jackass when he 'discovered' gcc 2.96's "problems" and put it into his build script. He later retracted but it's still in the code.
./configure --ignore-gcc-checking --with-gui
That'll get you rocking.
Maybe I'm being a little harsh here but I thought the point of this operating system was to run Windows apps under Linux?
"Windows Media 7.1 doesn't install (it detects an unsupported operating system), Norton Anti Virus 2002 doesn't work, ICQ2001B installs perfectly but doesn't run, Windows Media 6.4 installs okay, even installs new codecs, but when it needs to start playing from the network it says that the address is not found."
Okay, I'll give you the fact that's its a beta product but remember this is a beta you have to pay for. I would expect it to be able to at least do something? It can't even install Internet Explorer. The review doesn't seem to mention any Windows app it can run. The issue of having to run everything as root is obviously scary. Let's say that if (and that's a big IF) you can run Outlook as your mail client then now that app has root access to your system. Not a very fuzzy feeling in my tummy over that.
So yes, a beta product that doesn't work very well. No surprise there. However compared to other Windows/Other-OS efforts like WINE for Linux and Odin for OS/2, this falls really short. Odin at least can run most Win32 apps and you can even run Visual C++ under it. That's pretty impressive. This isn't especially if I have to pay for it to try it out.
The whole Lindows thing is just another bad effort at diverting focus away from the real Linux underneath. With the recent demise of Loki and people turning to Transgamer, it will always be a Windows world, even if it looks like KDE on top.
liB
"One of the things about Linux that drives even "Power User" Windows 9x users nuts is the enforced accounts and pw stuff in Linux (or Win2K, for that matter)."
Yeah, sacrifice security for ease-of-use. Brilliant.
Yeah, sacrifice ease-of-use for filesystem security that isn't needed on a single-user machine. Brilliant.
It's not a single-user system by any definition. Maybe out of the box it is, but the second someone discovers it online, it's gonna be cracked and become a multi-user system. No password for root? Why not just hand them a shotgun and say 'aim squarely at feet'.
THINK BEFORE POSTING.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Why should it? Being that Windows will let any user do anything... why shouldn't lindows?
My initial reaction was the same as yours.
But then, I thought... What if Lindows takes off like a runaway train? What if other software companies actually start making programs specifically for Lindows? Finally, what if Lindows never removes the must-be-root "feature?"
How long will it be before someone writes a program that relies on the fact that you're running as root? How long before the fabled Linux (a.k.a. Lindows) stability goes to hell and a handbasket? Okay, it might still be better than Windows, but when a program depends the fact that it's root... that's scary.
I sincerely hope that they remove this restriction for the actual release (that this is only in the beta release), and run the shell as a regular user.
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
And so to take this to it's logical conclusion, when Linux is 100% like Windows, then everyone will use Linux. But then at that point Linux would just be Windows under a different name. Oh joy.
I don't WANT ans OS that's 100% like Windows. That's WHY I use Linux!!!!
Why, oh why can't we start coming up with new ideas and implementing them? Why must we constantly play catch-up to Windows? Who gives a rat's ass about Windows? The key to getting more people to use Linux is *NOT* to be more Windows-like. The only way to topple the MS monopoly is to make Linux something completely different from Windows. Make it do stuff that you simply can't do on Windows. Make it *easier* to use than Windows, not *just like* Windows. Make it so that it's easier and faster for people to do the things they like to do on a computer. Come up with the "killer app" for Linux that everyone simply HAS to have. Invent new UI paradigms that are more intuitive. Do whatever it takes to make Linux better than Windows, but for chrissakes stop looking to Windows as the model!
Forget Windows. Just make Linux so insanely great that everyone will want it.
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
BEing an administrator in Windows is not the same as being root in UNIX. Root is a FAR more powerful account. With root you basically become the system. With Administrator rights, you have the ability to excersize a great deal of control over the system, but you still have limits. For example Windows XP exerts some protection over it's system files, to keep them from being replaced/corrupted. Now certian things (like driver updates) can override that, but in general use, it is enforced, even for admins.
I don't espically worry about doing my work on a Windows system with administrator rights. I DO worry about staying logged in as root. It is more powerful, and as such more dangerous.
I haven't read the review yet. But... Due to the fact the editor didn't put a biased, suggestive opinion at the end of story post... Well, I figured that must mean it's not too good since it doesn't have the typical Slashdot HURRAH! Saved some time.
Why bother.
Max: What?! What?!
Inigo: Are you the Miracle Max who worked for the suits for all those years?
Max: The suits' stinking lawyers sued me. And thank you so much for bringing up such a painful subject. While you're at it, why don't you give me a nice tongue clamp, and run current through it. We're closed! [Max closes a flap over the door hole, but Inigo still knocks] Beat it or I'll call the Business Software Alliance!
Fezzik: I'm on the Business Software Alliance.
Max: You are the Business Software Alliance!
Inigo: We need a miracle. It's very important.
Max: Look, I'm retired. Besides, why would you want someone the suits' stinking lawyers fired. I might vaporize whatever you want to make the miracle.
Inigo: It's already vapor.
Max: It is, eh? I'll have a look. Bring it in. [They enter. Max examines the laptop.] I've seen worse.
Inigo: Sir... Sir.
Max: Huh?
Inigo: We're in a terrible rush.
Max: Don't rush me, sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles. You got money?
Inigo: Distro CDs...
Max: Sheesh! I never worked for so little; except once and that was a very noble cause.
Inigo: This is noble, sir. It's software is... crippled... child processes on the brink of starvation...
Max: Are you a rotten liar.
Inigo: I need it to help avenge my DR-DOS prompt, murdered these twenty years.
Max: Your first story was better. Where's that compressed air. It's probably hiding your porn, huh. Well, I'll ask it.
Inigo: It's vapor. It can't tell you.
Max: Ooooohh! Look who knows so much, eh! It just so happens that your friend here is only mostly vapor. There's a big difference between mostly vapor and all vapor. Please open the CD-ROM drive. [He inserts the compressed air nozzle] Now, mostly vapor is slightly running. Now, all vapor... well, with all vapor, there's usually only one thing that you can do.
Inigo: What's that?
Max: Hype it in Wired and hope for an IPO. [Max shoots air into laptop and yells at it] Hey! Hello in there! Hey! What's so important? Whatcha got here, that's worth running for? [Max pushes on laptop's space bar]
Laptop: [barely audible] Lin....dows...
Inigo: [excited] Lindows! You heard it! You could not ask for a more noble cause than that.
Max: Sonny, Lindows is the greatest thing in the world; except for a nice CCD - Caffeinated Choco-Death, where the caffiene is nice and strong, and the marshmallows melt. They're so perky. I love that. But that's not what it said! It distinctly said, 'bit hose'. And as we all know, 'bit hose' means a fat pipe. So, you were probably surfing for warez and it segfaulted...
Old Woman: [interrupting] Liar!! Liar!! Liarrrrr!
Max: Get back, witch!
Old Woman: I'm not a witch, I'm your wife. But after what you just said, I'm not even sure I want to be that anymore.
Max: You never had it so good. [Max smiles at Inigo]
Valerie: [Max's wife] Lindows, who said Lindows, Max?
Max: Don't say another word, Valerie... [Inigo looks on in disbelief]
Valerie: You're afraid. Ever since Microsoft fired him, his confidence has shattered.
Max: [yelling] Why'd you say that name?! You promised me that you would never say that name!
Valerie: What, Microsoft?!
Max: [cringes] Ahh!!
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
[Valerie is chasing Max around the room yelling. Max is covering his ears]
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
Valerie: Microsoft!
Max: Ahh!!
Valerie: [now in a sing-songy voice] Microsoft... Microsoft! Microsoft! Microsoft! Microsoft!
Max: I'm not listening!
Valerie: Lindows, processes expiring and you don't have the decency to say why you won't help!
Max: Nobody's hearing nothing!
Valerie: Microsoft! [She continues to yell 'Microsoft']
Inigo: [interrupting] This is the user's true love. If you heal it, it will stop Microsoft's monopoly!
Max: [to Valerie] Shut up!
Inigo: Thank you. Thank you.
Max: Wait, wait. I make it better, Microsoft suffers?
Inigo: Lost sales galore!
Max: Ha ha!! That is a noble cause! Give me the distros! I'm on the job!
(Mad props to Robert Zabaga for his transcription of the original script)
normal(adj)- people who don't sit on slashdot all day wondering why everyone else isn't building robots [DECS]
Which, of course, raises the question: what hardware were you using?
My work desktop has been rock solid reliable. Linux 7.1, 167 days uptime. My home system has been much less reliable.. X seems to lock up once every couple of weeks. I can usually ssh to my home system from another box and kill off the X server and things come back, but not always. I don't know whether it is the hardware or my extremely heavily customized kernel and library set, but that's the cost of rolling your own.
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
Linux 7.1, 167 days uptime.
By which I meant Red Hat Linux 7.1, of course. Sorry, I do know better. ;-)
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
Jerry Pournelle wrote an excellent article circa 1997 for Byte about how badly IBM dropped the ball on OS/2. Of the interesting highlights:
- IBM drastically underestimated demand for OS/2 2.0 when it first came out. They didn't make nearly enough diskettes, and there were many stories of Eggheads (and other stores) running out of copies. I can attest to this, I couldn't get a copy when it first came out, either
- Comdex, 1991: IBM was charging an OUTRAGEOUS price for their SDK (on the order of $150-$200). MS was handing SDKs for Win3.0 out to anybody who walked by.
- Comdex, 1991: IBM OS/2 2.0 won best-of-show against Win3.0. Jerry recounts having to wait HALF AN HOUR at the awards show while they hunted down an IBM rep to even accept the award. All the while, the runner-up (Microsoft) was swarming with reps, all asking questions as to why they didn't win, handing out more SDKs, etc
There was even the time I called IBM tech support and got literally laughed at by the tech support for trying to run OS/2 on a 386/40 (recommended was a 386/33 at the time). 486/50s were bleeding edge at the time.When OS/2 2.0 came out, only Win3.0 came out. IBM dropped OS/2 big time. By the time OS/2 2.1 came out, Win3.11 was well on its way and nobody gave two wits about OS/2 any more.
Finally, keep in mind that OS/2 1.x was the laughing stock of OSes at the time. Even more so than Win386, Win2.0, etc. The DOS box was nicely referred to as the "penalty box" for how miserably it performed.
Say what you want about Microsoft (I don't like them either). They know how to market their wares. And when you bumble as badly as IBM did, you have no chance.
One of the reasons I fled the Windoze world was the crappy limited UI.
_ __
KDE can look like Windows (or half a dozen other OSes) or I like using Gnome's CDE panel layout with a Mac OS style thin menu up top which gives a similiar look OS X.
Why are we in the Linux community so damn intent on copying Windows. Everytime someone talks about Windows and its shortcomings the UI and its inconsistencies and oddities come up. However, when we as a community start building a Desktop environment everyone brags on the interfaces, desktops and even the distros that imitate the Evil freakin' Empire. If you like it so much then stay in your Windows world.
There are so many linux diehards that run linux on your servers and screw around with it occasionally but don't take the few hours on the side to set up a user interface and actually live with the OS 24/7 as your workstation.
I do live with it and once it is set up properly anyone including my wife can use it. The Distros need to hard look at moving the desktop interface, UI and user experience forward instead of blindly following the lead of Redmond.
_______________________________________________
ACK
The reason is simple: cost. Microsoft has put in years of time and effort to get Office to where it is now. For a small group to be able to start from scratch to compete with this will be rather difficult. In addition, if the new office does not function exactly like MS Office, millions of business users will not use it because they don't want to have to learn something new.
Secondly, StarOffice is probably the best able to catch up to MS Office, not necessarily to compete but to get a compatible software.
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
The point is that, in general, root is way more powerful than an NT administrator. Administrator in NT/2k/XP is just a powerful user, with lots of rights. Root IS the system. The equivalant user in NT is "LocalSystem", which you aren't allowed to login as. That's one of the things that bugs some UNIX people about NT, there are things you can't do, even as admin.
Just saying as a general rule being logged in as root is more powerful and therefore dangerous. Not saying that is a bad thing.
There are plenty of people who go through "crazy" things to avoid MS, but not a single one of them is interested in Lindows.
sic transit gloria mundi
And you expect us to take you seriously? :)
btw, there's a neat word trick here - "Linux" crashes very, very, very rarely, but "Linux Systems" have been known to, and it's usually X that crashes. The user of course wouldn't see that difference, but only that the computer is "frozen" (there is actually a real difference here, in that you often can login remotely and kill X, but the people we are talking about usually don't have 5 computers on their home network)
sic transit gloria mundi
Windows for the Desktop
I am just curious where this mentality comes from. (I am sure you'll get plenty of responses from a lot of users with their panties in a bunch about this, I'll try not to be one).
This whole "Desktop" idea has been idealized to no end, to the point of sounding like something so esoteric that only MS could ever hope to achieve it. That's just bollocks.
I don't know what "graphics guys" do, but let's take a look at what the vast majority of desktops out there do:
- Email
- Web
- Word Processing
That is it! With a few additions here and there, that satisfies 80% of home users. And don't try to tell me that Mandrake (for example) doesn't do these things, or somehow does them inadequatly. KMail, Konqueror and KOffice do their job, do it well and are intuitive (as far as current desktop metahpores go) and easy to use. If this whole Linux "mystique" or FUD or whatever the hell it is, wasn't attached to Mandrake (for example), no one would even think of calling it somehow difficult to use.I on the other hand (as probably most people here) am a more demanding user, being a developer and all, I need tools to do my job. I am sure I don't need to get into the whole thing over again, I'll just quote the guy who said "I tried using Windows, but it didn't come with a compiler - how am I supposed to do my job without a compiler?" :)
Of course there are things that Windows does better - games get mentioned a lot, for one. I personally don't play games too much, and when a game is interesting enough for me to get it, often (not always) there is a Linux version (or it runs under WINE). Not to say that I can play every single game I want under Linux, but if I absolutely had to choose a single OS to use always this wouldn't be a deciding factor. That's just me of course.
In any case, I use Linux, I like Linux, and when I am using Windows, I miss Linux. Why is it that I am constantly told that I am somehow wrong about this, or am doing it for the wrong reasons? Is it just because MS bashing isn't popular anymore, but MS-bashing bashing is?
Anyway, on the other hand - I liked Win2K, I don't mind it now, but I know that were I to stick to the Windows world, I would be forced to "upgrade" eventually, and WinXP is just more than I can take.
sic transit gloria mundi
The single biggest issue I see here *is* that Lindows has you do everything while running as root.
It's not 1.0 yet, I expect they'll fix it. This isn't rocket science, but it is time consuming to get all the permissions right and I understand why they left it to last.
I think they might have rushed this preview a little, due to skeptical editorial comments on lwn.net. On balance I think it was a good move, even if it means people get to look a more of the unfinished aspects than they might have liked.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Personally, I find 'vaporware' a term only usable in sentences with words like 'Duke Nukem' and 'Forever', but I find it ironic that a preview of this OS makes it NOT vaporware anymore while Microsoft has to release a full version of .NET to make it non-vaporware (still people believe it's vaporware). Odd.
Looking at the screenshot, it screams 'Programmer Art', it hurts: the icons are not consistent. Some have blank borders, some are smooth, XP like. Was it too much to ask for a decent designer?
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Are these people really going to buy into a system that doesn't run everything they're used to as well as their current one, costs nearly as much, but hey, it's not made by a company called Microsoft.
But if it is made by Microsoft they will quite happly pay more for something which may well not run their current software as well as they are used to...
If they buy a new machine they probably don't even have any choice because of the dodgy OEM deals Microsoft still has going.
Hell, most of them won't even buy counterfeit Levi's if they can avoid it. "It's not the real thing, it's not as good."
Problem with that analogy is that Levi does not have a monoploy in the garment market. Indeed rather than forcing every outlet to exclusivly sell their products they actually try to stop retailers selling their stuff.
To make money, Lindows and the Linux corps need a big button at the front of their wizards that says "Default Install-- For First-time Users"
Even with Windows how many end users actually install their own OS?
nothing comparable to photoshop,fireworks,dreamweaver,flash,3dsmax,cubas e,cool edit etc. etc.
I agree with everything except the first one, and especially lament the third :) I don't have terribly exciting graphic manipulation needs, but I do need to do some (let's say "intermediate" level work) pretty frequently, I've found that The GIMP more than meets my needs and doesn't make me cry for Photoshop (in fact, I kinda like its UI a bit better than Photoshop's; subjective of course).
You are right in that a glaring hole in the Linux application landscape (at least from my perspective, niche as it is) is the lack of a WYSIWYG HTML editor (mind you, not lack of a good one, but of any); If I was still doing extensive web design, I probably wouldn't want to do it without Dreamweaver. (even though real men do it in vi, of course)
Anyway, this is all true, but hardly the "fault" of GNU/Linux developers, or the achievement of MS (at least from a technological perspective) - these are tools provided by third parties, and we are obviously getting into the whole chicken-egg thing of market for and support of software.
True as all this is, the majority of this discussion revolves around our little buddy the "average user" whose requirements are far below those that I have, and who's never even heard of any of those applications you mentioned.
Besides, shouldn't you graphics guys be using Macs, anyway? :)
sic transit gloria mundi
So, when reporting Lindows related stories, should tux be equipped borg style, as Bill is, in the slashdot icon? Or should it show Bill wearning a tuxedo?
:wq
I've used Miva - it is a sack of shit.
sic transit gloria mundi
MPlayer
This is my work desktop.
I use my home dir as my desktop (I hate the seperate desktop and home folder convention).
I use Ximian Gnome, Nautilus as a my file manager, Galeon to browse and Evolution as my email client.
I use this desktop at work using StarOffice, and Gnumeric for Windoze file work.
I do not believe that any OS in the end-all as another person suggested. I am a configuration manager (Sysadmin and code work) for a Unix-based development company. It works for me.
http://bailes.home.mindspring.com/screen1.png
ACK
Where was it that you turned unneeded filesystem level security into no root password for network connections?
Who said anything about no root password for network connections? What are you talking about?
You are fucking elitist who does things the way he does just to be different from the crowd regardless if it makes sense or not.
...
And you don't know what elitist means.
I don't do anything because the "crowd" does it or not. When everyone is using Linux (assuming that happens) so will I.
I never would have stopped using Windows (and in my search for something else found Linux) if I hadn't decided that Windows sucked. It was a value judgement based on experience. I didn't know there was a way to be "different", but I knew that Windows was painfull to use.
And that makes me elitist, because I don't want Linux to be like something that sucks? Yeah, whatever.
Also, based on your other posts, you are economical 'primitive' but that is another story
You mean because I don't worship at the holy shrine of Capitalism? Hah, that's a laugh. How is hoping and waiting for the "invisible hand" to fix everything sophisticated again?
Oh, right. You're an elitist conformist. Sad, sad.
The enemies of Democracy are
Fine. If you aren't going to bother reading your own posts, neither will I. Bye.