Slashdot Mirror
Ximian to Change License for Mono
A Commentor writes: "According to news.com Ximian is changing the license to Mono from GPL to a variant of the XFree license. Apparently this is due to a partnership with Intel." Update: 01/28 15:03 GMT by T : There's a story at NewsForge as well, where RMS weighs in firsthand on the license choice.
This makes quite a bit of sense in terms of acceptance as if the root classes of the implementation are GPL that pretty much forces every application built to use Mono to be GPL. You can debate whether the classes would have been better off XFree-ish or LGPL, but they shouldn't be GPL (IMO), just as the gnu libc isn't GPL.
Just as glibc and gtk are LGPL and not GPL, switching the license for the class libraries to a license that allows commercial software to be used with Mono is a good move.
.Net may fizzle or end up being a bridge for viruses from Windows, which will make the choice of license less important, as no one will be using it. If it does work out, it might mean that you can finally buy Linux software at CompUSA.
;)
I would have preferred the LGPL, but an X-style license is better than a lot of alternatives.
Of course,
I'm not sold on the whole clone-MS thing. On the one hand, it could lessen MSFT's grip on the market. On the other, MSFT will probably maintain incompatibilities with Mono, making Mono much less relevant. For instance, I doubt that they will ship a ".Net clean" version of Office that would run on Mono. Ditto for other cash-cow programs. However, I'll bet that Minesweeper.NET will be one of the first successes for Mono.
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
OK, I know that I'll get flamed to death for it (well if I provided an email). But, I really had a revelation reading Stallman's last GPL style rant about Word attachments. He really makes it difficult for reasonable people who agree with him on many fundamental things (I agree that Word attachments are bad).
It is clear that Stallman and the GPL are not really about freedom. I want the right to view, port, and tweak code. We agree there. But, I do not want the right to force others to let me view, port and tweak their code. Stallman disagree's there. At one time I had the deluded notion that the GPL was all about making certain that those who contributed to Open Source didn't try to just steal from it outright and wanted to provide more protection than the BSD license. But, it is quite clear that the agenda is bigger than that. It is that there be no closed code at all. The viral nature of the GPL isn't there as a side effect of trying to protect Open Source. It is there to deliberately attempt to eliminate closed source. That is a foolish endeavor in and event.
Please folks, don't be paranoid. BSD licenses represent true freedom. So what if someone tries to rip off your BSD software and do a closed modification. It is more likely, you will get credited in that instance whereas a GPL stealer will attempt to hide from GPL responsibilities. I fail to see a single incidence the BSD code modified and closed the has hurt the BSD community.
Maybe some people's feelings got hurt when MS used the BSD code for their networking implementation. But, looking at the big picture it got networking more standardized and interoperable. BSD was not directly hurt at all. With the desktop monopoly of closed software it is almost impossible for one to make headway with a low level GPL innovation. At best a corrupted twisted half assed version will be released by microcrap and everyone will suffer. OTOH, a BSD innovation can easily become a standard in both closed and open source communities.
Please, down with the GPL...
Miguel.
is that Intel and HP are contributing to Mono.
I find it somewhat amazing that these two would risk the wrath of Bill. HP I can almost understand, since they're in the Unix business (for now anyway), but Intel would be in big trouble if MS dropped support for Itanic in favour of AMD's Hammer.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
If the slashdot readership has any questions they'd like to ask Miguel de Icaza, we can ask the highly-moderated ones during the Q&A session and report the answers back here.
Phil Gross, Columbia ACM
I'd rather see pragmatism than evangelism at this point. Some form of .NET style framework is going to become a standard in the next few years, and I'd rather it were an open source one than an MS one. 50 volunteers and 5 Ximian developers simply don't stand a chance against MS. If it takes a BSD-style license to get Intel and HP on board, then so be it. Evangelize later, once you've got the leverage and mindshare.
-Intel officially supports 2 OSes, Win and Lin.
-Intel writes the fastest C/C++ and Fortran compilers and parallelization tools for Linux
-Intel is a founder of the Open Source Development Lab
-Intel is working on dozens of Linux projects including OSCAR cluster, ethernet, gig E and embedded StrongARM work.
-Itanium has over 500 applications for 3+ OSes while Hammer doesn't even have a finished OS yet.
(Just don't tell Microsoft...)
They seem to be focusing on staying two steps behind Microsoft (Evolution, Mono, Gnumeric...)
Slam me if you like, but Gnumeric means I can keep my gradebook and track my business P/L on a free software application instead of dual-booting Windows. People need good spreadsheets and groupware to do real work.
Oh, and "apt-get install evolution-ssl" works just fine here... installing good software for Linux doesn't have to be hard, you know.
My Blog. Sela Ward can sell me long distanc
This leaves DotGNU Portable.NET as the only true Free Software project tackling the implementation of the CLR, C# compiler, C# class library, etc.
http://www.southern-storm.com.au/portable_net.html .
We are looking for developers to help us build our system into a truly-Free implementation. Portable.NET has been around longer than Mono, and remains true to the principles of Free Software.
Two steps behind a leader is much better place to be than right in front of the last man running :-) What Ximian makes is needed not to geeks but to common folk (a.k.a. lusers). That's who wants Evolution. Without Windows-like apps Linux will see much more resistance everywhere. I am personally very glad that Ximian works on all that unneeded fluff and eye candy, so I can focus on some serious work.
Myself, I am very happy with Mutt, and though I tried Evolution and I have it installed... it crashes sometimes, and it is not as flexible as Mutt is. Evolution also has some codepage-related quirks which Mutt (and iconv that it uses) doesn't have.
Well if we talk about software being taken from BSD, used, and the source dissappears for ever, there is probably no better example than Microsoft. Their network stack owes a lot to BSD, but has any of it been passed back? No.
See my journal, I write things there
True enough. I knew about most of those, although not all. But this is a little different. It's one thing to support an alternative technology, but Mono is a direct frontal attack. If MS is really reorganising itself around .Net, then contributing to a clone is roughly equivalent to contribuing to Wine.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
Ideas, concepts, and whatever else is included in those classes might as well be written for Microsoft, for free.
Yeah, so what? I mean seriously, so what?
Just do Microsoft a favour and virtually work for them for free while you're at it!
Since I don't have to pay to get Mono, Miguel is working for me for free. I like that. It's cool. I don't have to pay Miguel a damn thing to get Mono. So if Miguel is working for me for free, why can't he work for Bill Gates for free at the same time?
Or is Free Software not the issue here, and you could care less what the software is as long as someone you don't like gets screwed?
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Well if we talk about software being taken from BSD, used, and the source dissappears for ever, there is probably no better example than Microsoft [microsoft.com]. Their network stack owes a lot to BSD, but has any of it been passed back? No.
This claim is one of those internet myths that has festered on Slashdot that has never been conclusively proved.
However this myth has been debunked in an article by a former Microsoft employee that explains with really happened?
Secondly, unlike most of the zealots on Slashdot I don't think the purpose of Free Software is a battle between prospective platforms and user communities but instead is the optimal way to provide utility to users of software. Even if MSFT uses a BSD-derived TCP/IP stack, this would mean that improved networking has benefitted millions of computer users who use MSFT Windows and couldn't handle BSD boxen. The BSD license is about getting as many people as possible to benefit from your software and not an attempt to bend the software industry to the world view of a dissaffected MIT computer science professor.
I know that you read /. from time to time, as I got an e-mail from you in response to a posting. Perhaps you can enlighten us here, because I'm really confused.
In discussing the LGPL vs GPL for libraries, you mention the idea that if the ability doesn't exist outside of the library (ie readline) you should GPL it. Then, if someone wants to use your library, they need to GPL it, and this advanced free software.
However, if you are reimplementing a standard (i.e. glibc) then you should use the LGPL so that others can build on your work.
So, assuming we shared your goals of using licensing to advance free software, I still don't see how this hurts.
Right now, in the pragmatic marketplace, the Unix vendors are retreating up the ladder. Linux and GNU based systems are replacing the low-end UNIX system. Proprietary UNIX is slowly being confined to areas where Free Unix-like OSes can't perform. I think that worrying about liberating Unix users is quite silly. At this point, any markets that Unix competes in will belong to GNU when it matures to that level. UNIX isn't the enemy, its the advanced team. Crippling the commercial UNIXes in a Unix vs. MS fight really hurts free software, as we have a Free Unix, but not a free Windows. The Free Unix will displace the non-Free Unixes, but if the service runs on Windows, you won't liberate those users.
From this view point, I fail to see how this licensing change hurts thing? These classes are duplicates of the Microsoft classes. As they are based upon compatibility, you can't really do much with them directly. I don't see the leverage that even GPL'd versions give you.
If your goal is to prevent Sun from using this work to sell Solaris in this market, I think you are missing the situation here. The first choice that is made is Unix vs. WinNT. If WinNT wins, then your free tools are ignored. If Unix wins, then GNU systems get the job if they can handle it, otherwise a Unix is chosen. When the server is replaced in 2-3 years, it will likely be replaced by a GNU system.
We can't offer things that Sun and HP can. If they do the job, GNU systems kick in when they can handle it. If Win32 gets the job, you are unlikely to liberate them.
Please, explain how crippling the development efforts advanced free software?
GNUstep could have done wonders had the project been nearly completed 3-4 years ago. It is just coming to maturity now, and will likely me 2 years from true usefulness.
This industry moves quickly, and GNU is making it move faster. Any space gets eaten by Free Software within 5 years of existance now, with good prototypes in 2-3 years. Isn't it simply enough to speed up the Free Software Goliath? Why attack the Unix vendors, they're adopting the GNU way slowly as they can.
Alex
What, would you have preferred "that now will be governed by a less blessed and pure license"?
The statement was wholly appropriate, and this is coming from someone who happens to like the GPL in most cases.
I mean, some zealotry is expected from time to time, but this frothing at the mouth over a statement that was logically sound and not at all inaccurate just lends people to think all people who are pro-GPL are a bunch of dogmatic cultists. And what the hell is up with the second statement? It boggles the mind to even try and guess what the hell you found wrong with that.
Thanks a bunch. I'll remember you the next time I mention Linux to someone and they look at me like I'm a scientologist.
"We obviously need a new moderation category: (-1, Woo-fucking-hoo)" --Mr. AC
Tux Racer changed from free software to proprietary software.
Mono changed from free software to free software.
Your comparison sucks.
The GPL is designed to generate a common wealth of software, an
expanding base that does drive competition in the commercial market,
regardless of the licenses being used in the market.
On one end of the spectrum of licenses you have the growth of this base of
Common Wealth code.
On the other end you have the extream of closed down tight proprietary
code that is done so as a matter of milking it for every penny you can get
out of it, profits focused to a few.
If all code was proprietary, you can be certain that we would not be
anywhere near as advanced in this technology as we are today.
The BSD License doesn't help the Common Wealth code base as much as GPL
does. But the GPL doesn't help the proprietary code base any more than
vice versa.
So, do you build upon Common Wealth or slow it's advancement thru such
licenses support some other point in the spectrum?
In time it will become clear that compromises such as what the BSD license
allows, will act counter productive to the GPL objective/goal. In time,
thru the compromise, the GPL will become heavely constrained by those who
use the compromise to place barriers to advancement in front of the GPL.
Consider a piece of BSD licensed code, open to be improved until someone
comes along and pulls it behind the curtain and slaps patented piece of
software on it, effectively preventing anyone else from advancing that
software in that direction in an open source manner.
It should be worth noting that IBM is the Leading US patent holder, being
granted more patents a year than any other company or party, in the US.
This particular story regarding Mono is a good indication of....Ok it's ok
to make the engines available for free but we are gonna own all the tires
and gas.....and these engines won't be able to go anywhere without our
permission, and that's for sale.
RMS sees possibilities and then applies human greed to the equasion to
determine what to expect. I now this because I do it too, and it's always
right.
So Sure RMS seems to be extream, because when dealing with the devil,
there is no such thing as compromise. Only an illusion to lead you to
think so, untill it's to late for you to do anything about it.