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Judge Grants MS's No-Press Request
jeffy124 writes: "We already know that Microsoft has requested to bar the media from proceedings in the anti-trust suit. Judge Kollar-Kotelly has granted that request. A 1913 law permitted public access to anti-trust proceedings, but only if the federal government were involved. Because the case no longer includes the feds, that law no longer applies, so MS has successfully closed the doors to the press and public." An anonymous reader points out this coverage at InfoWorld as well.
if only they could close the security doors on their products...
How about this conspiracy theorists? Does this in effect give m$ a media monopoly to cover the trial in its own self interest? Hmmm
Somebody had to mention it.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
Now, are the hearings just closed to the media, or close completely to the public. I would think that they couldn't be, and that they shouldn't be since they would be publicly involved. If so, there could be people that would attend the hearings with recording devices, and they could just anonymously release them into the public, where media producers could randomly pick them up and use them. Kind of like the undercover investigations some news sources produce.
This only applies to the deposition gathering process. This is the normal way such things are done. Allowing public access, as was done in the DOJ proceedings, is the exception.
Now this is kind of scary, as the media have the media's best interest, not society's or either of the party's involved. Oh wait, one of the plaintiff's is AOL Time Warner?
I do not like to be the one with the extreme Orwellian predictions, but allowing the media to be heard is just asking for trouble. Imagine a case involving a popular figure... "And now the court will hear from the National Enquirer."
Troll Like a Champion Today
Don't overreact; the Judge had to rule on law, and that's what she did. It's not like once the cameras are barred MS will be able to do something sneaky; the state AGs are not as sympathetic to MS as the Ashcroft "Justice" Department is.
Press won't be allowed to witness the depositions. BFD, really, as those often don't take place in court. The proceedings in court, however, cannot be private.
And the depositions become public record once they're submitted as part of the case. So, there won't be any reporter's spin on what he saw/heard during the depositions....you'll just have to read them yourself.
After all, winning a case like this could prove difficult when you're not allowed in the courtroom.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
The shredders are kept on idle .. waiting for the next assignment.
The antitrust laws were made to protect consumers, but it seems consumers aren't getting to see how the antitrust laws are working for them. Just doesn't seem right to me, but I'm no lawyer (just a consumer).
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I can already see the posts piling up about how this proves that the government is in MS's pockets. I hate to break the news to you, but all this proves is that everyone has to follow the laws. I don't like the decision, but if the law states that only trials involving the feds are open, then that is what it states. You can't ignore this law and still try to punish people (or MS in this case) for ignoring laws. I don't like the law and think it should be changed, but I can't fault MS for using the law. If we expect MS to follow the law (which is what this is all about) we can't complain when the follow the law, even if it is to their own advantage.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
seeing what the press coverage ended up doing to Jackson's ruling (his interviews with the press painted him as being biased, which had a part to play in the appealate decision to remand the case..) maybe it's a good think CK won't be under the same scrutiny.
Indie rock lives! b-side!
Well, my bad. I think they might be even still might be heard.
Troll Like a Champion Today
Mod this guy down, he's distracting us from the kneejerk, fearmongering comments everyone should be reading.
If you bring common sense to slashdot, then the terrorists have won.
1. Don't worry--with microsoft's security problems, the proceedings will leak out somehow :-)
2. I just realized that it is possible the court system hearing the case may themselves use a computer system run by microsoft's products. That could have some interesting implications. (Like the judge typing up his opinion then realizing he's using MS Word to type it. Possibly causing him to change some aspect of his opinion.)
----
Quake is just a crutch for those who can't handle Descent.
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Canadian courts regularly ban the press. I for one don't disagree with this practice. Let the courts decide, there will be plenty of time for press when it's over. If there is the slightest perception of a problem with the press then shut them out.
A little faith in your justice system is a good thing.
Decisions and briefs aren't being sealed here. We'll still have a window (urp!) into the progress of the suit.
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
Our more recent, highly publicized court cases have fallen prey to this media frenzy. Now, OJ Simpson walks as a free man, thanks to the travesty of justice that was his trial, and Bill Clinton's legacy is now "the guy who got a hummer in the Oval Office", instead of "the guy who purjured himself, obstructed justice, and disgraced the Presidency".
So I ask the Slashdot community: is extensive media coverage of the Microsoft proceedings necessary? As is demonstrated on this site daily, this issue is an emotionally-charged one, and the media hounds will do more harm by running wantonly with similar emotion. The focus of Microsoft's business practices will be lost, and people it claims to serve will be misled, all in the name of 'getting the scoop'.
Please consider letting the justice system do it's duty without undue distraction. Trust me, with the power at Microsoft's disposal, their task is difficult enough as it is.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
And isn't it strange that the day after public comment closed that this would happen?
So the Public is not allowed to know what the Public says?
Something is seriously wrong with this picture
It looks like reporters ARE going to be allowed in. In this AP story, the judge rules that reporters CAN listen to pretrial depositions, unless MS can prove that confidential information would be disclosed.
Oh right, like MicroStuff themselves are not going to continue to spend billions of dollars telling everyone that they are being persecuted for inovating, that they have exonerated themselves beyond a shodow of a doubt and that they will continue to bring you the world's finest software without interuption. The spin never stops. Pray tell, why are you here defending the evil empire's preference for the dark?
A normal company would want the widest possible public hearing when accused. What do they want to hide? While you dissmiss "reporter's spin", let's not forget the reason spin comes about, that the new institution itself was bought or has an interest in the outome of what they report. This is an outrage that only be protected against by having multiple news outlets owned by independent companies. Cool reason can only go so far when presented with lies. Reason only works with truth, and the truth only comes from informed but disinterested third parties.
It's too bad we won't get the details of the proceedings. A room full of reporters would be a good thing. Every paper in the US printing the mindless pro Microsoft wire story is what you will get. The news outlets that will be excluded will be the indepenent ones, Wired, the Register, and anything else not owned by M$, Disney, GE, Westinghouse or the Associated Press International. Microboft will make up what it wants you to hear, and it's usual friends will quote it as honest news. The depostition may not be important, but there's no reason to keep it secret.
If only they would put 1/100th of that money and effort into implimenting widely accepted standards and security measures, they would not need to break the law.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The Associated Press is saying the opposite in this story, titled Reporters OK'd at Microsoft Hearing. I quote the first paragraph: "The judge in the Microsoft antitrust case ruled Tuesday that news organizations can listen to lawyers question technology executives in pretrial depositions unless Microsoft can prove the sessions would reveal confidential information."
For the public good! Don't let anyone know or say anything.
2+2=5. Once you have mastered this, all else follows.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
tx.
So it only applies to depositions? Does this mean we won't get to see Bill being interviewed on tape? That was one of the most entertaining parts of the trail to date!
:-).
This talks about some of the funny parts (arguing over the definition of "define"
Other things he couldn't define were "we", and "compete." What a hoot. Another great quote: "I have no idea what you're talking about when you say 'ask'." It really smacked of a guy who had some professional coaching on how to dodge questions, but executed it very inelegantly.
If not showing this type of questioning publicly is indeed what the court order means, I'm not surprised Microsoft fought hard for it. Bill just looked as dishonest and sneaky as many people think that he is.
-me
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
(AP newswire article)
If I'm interpreting this correctly (and IANAL), seems that the judge agrees that the statute requiring open access to the depositions doesn't apply in this circumstance. In fact, the judge seems to be requiring MS to do the heavy lifting demonstrating why the media should be excluded from a particular deposition. My guess would be that MS's legal team will concentrate on sealing any depositions of the big guns (pretty much anybody above product manager level, or whatever the equivalent is at MS), so that they don't experience a repeat of the Gates video debacle. The small fry will be left open, but they probably won't offer anything we haven't already heard.
In any event, I'm not sure what the flap is about even if some/all depositions are closed. The judge can only consider what is actually presented to her as formal evidence (which will end up being a subset of the deposition material IMHO). Deposition transcripts entered as evidence will be available to the public.
Besides, it's not like the technical/media community is suffering from a shortage of "Two-fisted MS business strategy" stories right now anyway...
I live in Canada and I can tell you that M$ gets big money from Canadian governmental agencies. (Remember, unlike the US, the canadian gov't is the BIGGEST employer in the country.) Most if not all branches and other arms of the canadian gov't are highly dependent on MS software to run their OSs. I have never seen a job posting for a government office job position that did *not* say that MS Office proficiency was necessary! In fact, I worked last summer in a government job and the office ran totally on Windows 9x, with Office 2000, Frontpage, etc. They are so irresponsible with their money in terms of software that they go out and spend $30 on ftp client software! They have never heard of freeware!* The godsend was they they didn't use outlook.
*Yes, I know that freeware and Free Software and different things.
This only applies to the deposition gathering process.
Exactly. And heaven forbid Microsoft acts in it's own interests in complete accordance with the law. Next thing you know they will figure out how to cut development costs to increase their profits. It's as if they're trying run a business in the USA of all places!
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
...the depositions become public record once they are submitted as part of the case,...
Attorneys use depositions to learn how witnesses will testify. In civil cases depositions are sometimes admitted in lieu of direct testimony before the Court if neither side wishes to cross-examine particular witnesses.
Where depositions are taken prior to testimony in court, they provide the opposing lawyers with roadmaps, as it were, to guide strategy in putting questions in both direct and cross examination.
Depositions accepted without testimony are usually noncontroversial (and often not very interesting), whereas the more interesting testimony is normally repeated in court.
Also, Federal proceedings in Court are invariably open to the public (including press). Unless the nine dissenting States can convince the Judge that Microsoft deserves to be prosecuted in one of those new secret terrorism tribunals. (Now, there's an interesting idea....)
IANAL...
If there is especially sensitive material then it is appropriate to ban the press. For example, in Australia it is illegal to report on proceedings in the Family Court, which deals with divorce and custody issues.
But this has to be balanced with the fact that we (the US, Canada, Australia etc) are a democracy and one of the fundamental principles of democracy is the fair and open administration of justice. Having faith in the justice system can only come from regular public scrutiny, which includes press scrutiny.
I don't agree with your suggestion to shut the press out at the "slightest perception of a problem". It's very easy for a company like Microsoft to create the perception of the problem, when this is not necessarily backed up by reality. To me, 'erring on the side of caution' entails allowing public/press access unless there is a very compelling reason not to. And by that I don't just mean the potential embarrassment of a multibillion dollar software company.
Does this matter all that much? The tech-curious members of the public-- namely, us-- would probably keep an eye on any proceedings as if it were OJ 2, so we're missing out on something. But the court of public opinion has already rendered judgment, and Microsoft has undoubtedly lost as much respect from the whole antitrust ordeal as it ever could.
They'll make any attempts to twist the law that they can-- wouldn't you?-- but the damage in the public's mind is probably already done. Unless any judgments are absolutely absurd in either direction, I don't really think anybody can cry foul here.
What is Microsoft so worried about that they don't want the proceedings covered by media? Surely a corporate entity intent on settings things right would want the greatest transparency possible.
It is possible that Microsoft is about to propose another remedy and hopes that this time, since the media will be barred from seeing the proceedings, the outcry will be lessened enough that some of the remaining states will be willing to cave in.
--
Some people say there is no money in Linux. Well, the problem about Windows is that Microsoft wants all the money. At least in Linux I don't have to worry about big brother being able to murder my business using dirty tricks.
What kind of business case does a company have when its competitor can prevent all its products from being on the shelf at whim? Thats what happened when OEMs tried to bundle products Microsoft didn't approve of with new computers.
The government has a moral obligation here. Oddly, it appears only a few of the states are answering.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
I believe the judge should make Microsoft release the source code, internal documentation and all trade secrets to the public domain within a week. Furthermore, the judge should make Microsoft evenly split all their money and assets between all free and open source software projects in existance, even those projects started for the sole purpose of getting that free money, as the purpose isn't to help free software and open source projects, but to ruin Microsoft. Furthermore, the judge should rule that all shareholders, management, employees, family and friends of employees, and anybody else who is even remotely related to Microsoft must give all their personal assets to the aforementioned free software and open source projects. Furthermore, all those people must sell themselves as slaves and give that money to those projects as well. Finally, when all is said and done, there will be no more Microsoft, and the world will have no choice but to have a choice in the matter of what operating system and software they will use from now on.
Oh well.
Negra Modelo... because Guiness sucks.
Your "tearing, mangling and persuing mundane details" doesn't just describe the media, it also describes the Court process. Have you ever sat through a real court case? "The wheels of justice may grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine." In this sense, the media is accurite.
As for the OJ criminal trial, I don't think the presence of cameras influenced the case one bit. It sure did influence the public, though. Calling the outcome a "travesty" betrays a vengeful motive, or at least a misunderstanding of "the true goal of the proceedings" of criminal justice. It is not to punish wrongdoers, but to maintain order by punishing wrongdoers. Subtile but big difference. Do you know why it is better that 100 guilty walk free than 1 innocent be convicted? Hint -- it has to do with freedom, and IMHO has resulted in Anglo-Saxon countries enjoying greater economic development than those without this legal tradition. Or doesn't a impeached, perjuring, racist star prosecution witness count towards "reasonable doubt"?
As for Bill Clinton, his trial was by the Senate with no cameras present. How did cameras or the media circus win him leniency? [Where is that transcript?] They exposed most of his wrongdoing.
I will answer your question: Yes, coverage of the MS proceedings is vital. On the principle of open courts alone. Sure, some people may be mislead by the media. Better that than rumours and innuendo. Fortunately, we will get coverage. It's only the depositions that are private, probably as they should be until admitted into evidence.
How did the feds get uninvolved in this?
... to hide from the general public.
Wonder what that could be? Maybe: Price gouging? Security problems? Bloating problems?
Guess we'll never know unless we read the court transcripts.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
IMO, they forfeited their rights the moment the lied to the United States of America (ie: To the judges face).
Yet in this case it's the judge who was criticiseed for saying "these arn't nice people".
But everyone is innocent until proven guilty, aren't they?
Unless they are pawns to distract attention away from utter failure of government to do its job.
Most trials, are by default, closed.
What?
Seems like most anybody can wander into a courtroom of choice and watch whatever is going on there. Seating space may be limited for the more popular events.
everytime some scumbag has done something wrong and they are hauled into court for it, unless it is some show trial (John Walker, OJ.. etc..) People get barred when there are some real juicy bits.
Take for example, the barring of the media during the Iran/Contra hearings when the talks turned to drug issues, in the name of national security.
My website has two very curious events..STORIES that were released in the mainstream Media right after the SOTU adresss.
Both Cheny and Bush have told Dachle and the rest of the Senate not to head any (planned) investigation into the events of 9/11.
Interesting. More juicy bits. The same thing with Enron, the whitehouse just flat out says: we will not give you what you are asking for, even if you use the law to try and obtain it.
It scares me that this kind of behavior is being used more and more in this country, and that it is seen as expected "normal" behavior.
propaganda arts
Ashcroft is afraid of TITS for christ sake.. Now I understand why
I will try to summarize what happened.
Back in the days of MS-DOS rule in PC's, there came to be a form of coercion called "the motherboard tax". Even though software was already dirt cheap to mass produce, Microsoft managed to strongarm PC vendors into package deals wherein it was a bit cheaper to obtain MS-DOS per-computer licenses. As part of closing the sale with each big PC vendor, Microsoft insisted that each motherboard to ship from, say, Gateway 2000, to its customer in a computer system would trigger a sale of one MS-DOS license. In other words, even if the PC vendor (and software license reseller) did not put MS-DOS into the computer, the PC vendor would have to pay Microsoft as if the PC vendor did put MS-DOS into the computer.
Thus, Microsoft exacted the so-called "motherboard tax". You want to provide OS/2 Warp? Fine. Resell it, and pay the tax to Microsoft, once per motherboard. You want to ship it with SCO? Same deal. Most relevant legally, if you want to ship the computer with DR DOS or Novell DOS 7.0, you still have to pay Microsoft the motherboard tax.
Caldera obtained the rights to DR DOS (after it came to be known as Novell DOS). Caldera's rambunctious CEO took on Microsoft. In a secret deal, Caldera won.
So what? Great for Caldera's shareholders short term. What difference did it make in the overall pursuit of justice in the context of the goals of the Sherman Act? Not much.
I find it a little bit hard to believe that this topic has yet to come up on slash dot. Oh well. Now it's here. Please comment.
Well, I could say ``good point, it's not like Microsoft were at all subtle about raping their competitors and tying their customers' limbs to the bedposts (or was it the other way around?)'' but in reality Microsoft lose a lot of public image as people discover from reports of court proceedings just how selfish, blind and ruthless Microsoft really is (or at least, the people controlling it really are). What Microsoft has essentially gained is protection against people finding out quite so directly what they're really like.
Now MS can make their own press releases, the AGs can make theirs, and because there are no direct quotes it looks to the public more like two approximately equal powers having a spat - spouting their opinions - and less like policemen carefully reining in the excesses of a thoroughly-proven criminal behemoth.
Also, Bill only stopped talking long enough to change feet when he was making his video testimony, so when the next similar event arrives MS will want to sweep the results carefully under the publicity carpet.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The press can't attend? Well, if John Q. Public can attend, what's to stop him from posting trial reviews on Usenet? Or, better yet, from abroad via e-mail and an accomplice that's safely beyond the reach of yankee kangaroo courts???
Unlike Canada, right?
Java is the blue pill
Choose the red pill
Microsoft, the most innovative company in the world, has introduced the world to a brilliant new idea - from the makers of closed-source software, comes closed-source courts. Remember people: letting the public view court-cases is like a cancer, or a virus, it kills lawers' intellectual property. The way a lawer bull-shits is part of their creativity and protecting this will protect the winning of large corporations in anti-trust cases.
Don't worry though, the judges in america are all corrupt, so you can buy transcripts and recordings of the whole case for a small cough.. bribe.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
...unfortunately for them, the judge will still see it all, and that's who matters.
It does not appear very likely that the judge had any choice in the matter. Depositions are taken in private in all federal cases unless there is a specific requirement that they be public.
Once Microsoft protested the state AGs were bound to request the opposite regardless of what they would otherwise have requested since they could then grandstand with the openess claim.
Given that the state AGs are mostly political hacks and many come from states where a lot of voters work for companies that compete against Microsoft the scope for grandstanding in open depositions would have been huge. While the Federal government was running the case the state AGs had to take a back seat.
Ashcroft on the other hand is the type of political hack who loses an election to a dead man then spends $8000 of tax payers money having the statues in his HQ covered in a Burqua.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
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This only applies to the deposition gathering process. This is the normal way such things are done. Allowing public access, as was done in the DOJ proceedings, is the exception.
OK, I'll have to trust you on this part. So the deposition gathering process is closed, but I'm presuming that key parts of the proceedings will still be available to the public.
My major concern was to see Bill Gates answering questions in his usual sideways style, because it's so entertaining. I can see him going goggle eyed when asked about "air supply".
"Provided by the management for your protection."
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Much is usually lost in transcription. My mom became an OJ trial junkie while that mess was going on. There was a huge difference between watching the witnesses and reading a few blurbs. I got to see that lunatic that claimed she wore three writst watches all the time but was not and the father of LSD's broken leer as he tried to debunk DNA testing. It was much different from the AP garbage summaries.
What the public will lose here is a forgone conclusion. Though abuse of the worst kinds have been proved and are part of your precious public record that no normal person will ever see, the "punishment" will not be worth much. Our leaders have spoken and I am dissapointed. The whole thing is getting swept under the rug and this is just another piece of it.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
... heaven forbid Microsoft acts in it's own interests in complete accordance with the law.
I don't think heaven forbids Microsoft acting in accordance with the law, that's probably just an internal policy.
I choose Microsoft - why settle for a lesser evil?
In probably 100 or more posts I have pointed out that MS isnt a monopoly at all.
And in every single one of them, you would be wrong. Microsoft has an operating system monopoly as a matter of law. You may choose to disagree with that, just as I may choose to disagree with the argument that the DMCA is constitutional, but the simple fact is, the courts have decided against us*, so it's not a debatable point anymore. You should get over it. "why? Because thats the way the system works."
And most of the time I get modded up - meaning someone out there thinks I have a point.
The operative word being "thinks". Getting modded up doesn't prove you're right.
* Actually, I suppose I still have a little bit of room to hope, since there are appeals pending over the DMCA, but for now, the law stands.