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Networks and Studios Against PVRs

HiredMan sent in an LA Times story talking about more suits against PVR makers like Replay and Tivo. The most bizarre quote to me is that the suit argues that "it's illegal to let consumers record and store shows based on the genre, actors or other words in the program description." Huh?

17 of 549 comments (clear)

  1. A Wrench. by Renraku · · Score: 5, Insightful

    PVR's throw a wrench into the finely tuned machine that is mainstream television. They make their money from ads, and the more people sitting through those ads, the more money they make. Well, what happens when advertising firms start paying channels less because there are less people actually viewing the show than recording it? You can guess that the channels will be pretty pissed off. They're just trying to protect a source of money there, really.

    --
    Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    1. Re:A Wrench. by scoove · · Score: 5, Insightful

      what happens when advertising firms start paying channels less because there are less people actually viewing the show than recording it?

      TV remote control has already eroded ad viewing already. Where's the suit to ban remotes?

      And while we're on the topic, we need toilets that have lids that lock during commercials and refridgerators with auto-locking doors. Better yet, let's install seat belts on couches and lazboys and require all viewers be belted in before viewing. Belts will automatically lock during commercial breaks for optimum viewing convenience.

      The reality of it all is that it's time for the advertiser to evolve. Rather than fighting intuitive behavior, those that want to survive will focus on better product integration in the programs and blur the advertising boundries from where we're at today. Heck, we might even Wouldn't a Whopper be good right now? see comperable use on /.!

      *scoove*

    2. Re:A Wrench. by Splork · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they have no right to that source of money. just because it worked in the past does not mean the government should guarantee it for them in the future. if that were the case the government would be subsidizing all of the now failed dot-coms that depended on once lucrative internet advertising revenue.

      let the corporations earn their living, not have it fed to them on a plate.

    3. Re:A Wrench. by GreyPoopon · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Do you see this as just the network's problem because they're greedy corporations

      I'm not sure I would define this as a consequence of being greedy (although I'm sure they are). Their problem is that the primary source of revenue is being threatened. It's not just a matter of making a little less money. It's more like making a whole lot less money if PVRs become as popular as VCRs.

      I think somebody mentioned down below that these corporations need to evolve. It's time to find other sources of revenue. If their only salable "product" is airtime for advertisements, they're in real trouble. Every business that I know that stuck with a single product has gone down the tubes.

      I think you would see a lot less concern over this kind of thing if someone could come up with a really good suggestion on how they can stay in business. As you might guess, charging the cable/sat providers isn't going to cut it. That cost will only be passed to consumers who are not willing to pay.

      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

    4. Re:A Wrench. by bnenning · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Exactly. I keep pulling out this Heinlein quote, because it keeps being applicable so often:

      "There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with guaranteeing such a profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is supported by neither statute or common law. Neither corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back." - Robert A. Heinlein, "Life Line"
      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    5. Re:A Wrench. by mshomphe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wrong. We have every right to free television. The airwaves are public property. Networks license the use of those airwaves (for free, or next to nothing at most).

      --
      She sat at the window watching the evening invade the avenue.
  2. Coming next by phil+reed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A lawsuit by the Buggy Whip Manufacturers Association against the automobile industry, because the change from carriages to automobiles has decimated their markets. The Horse Manure Shoveler's Association is expected to sign on as co-plaintiff.

    --

    ...phil
    "For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
  3. Explaining the bizzare "illegal" quote by Seth+Finkelstein · · Score: 5, Informative
    The "rationale" for "it's illegal to let consumers record and store shows based on the genre, actors or other words in the program description." is "explained" further down:

    "If a ReplayTV customer can simply type 'The X-Files' or 'James Bond' and have every episode of 'The X-Files' and every James Bond film recorded in perfect digital form and organized, compiled and stored on the hard drive of his or her ReplayTV 4000 device, it will cause substantial harm to the market for prerecorded DVD, videocassette and other copies of those episodes and films," the lawsuit states.
    IANAL, but I think the idea is reaching to come up with a negative effect on the copyrighted work itself, so as to undermine the longstanding law that personal use of VCRs is fair use.

    Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)

    1. Re:Explaining the bizzare "illegal" quote by mcelrath · · Score: 5, Insightful
      it will cause substantial harm to the market for prerecorded DVD, videocassette and other copies of those episodes and films

      Correct me if I'm wong, but last time I checked, "markets" were not constitutionally protected, and neither were coporate profits or business models. (unless, of course, the business model is patented)

      They're trying to protect their business model through litigation, because embracing new technology is more expensive than lawyers.

      Maybe they'll all be hit with frivolous lawsuit countersuits. Here's hoping, anyway.

      --Bob

      --
      1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
    2. Re:Explaining the bizzare "illegal" quote by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Interesting
      "If a ReplayTV customer can simply type 'The X-Files' or 'James Bond' and have every episode of 'The X-Files' and every James Bond film recorded in perfect digital form and organized, compiled and stored on the hard drive of his or her ReplayTV 4000 device, it will cause substantial harm to the market for prerecorded DVD, videocassette and other copies of those episodes and films," the lawsuit states.

      If the entertainment industry would just sell me copies of every X-Files or Babylon 5 episode on DVD, rather than making me wait 5 years after the end of the series...

      If they'd offer me all the episodes at once, rather than 2 episodes per disc, with me having to "hope they keep producing 2-episode disks, once every month, for the next 8 years, so I can get the complete series rather than just having half the series until they stopped producing 'em"... then maybe I'd buy.

      Until they offer me the product I want, I'll continue to get that product the only way I can. The fact that it's free-as-in-beer is only a bonus.

      Anyone for South Park episodes? If quality doesn't matter, you can fit an entire season on a CD-R. (And if you want good quality, an entire season on a DVD-ROM.) Or you can go to the store and see a DVD with two episodes on it. 44 whole minutes of video. Whoop-de-fsck.

    3. Re:Explaining the bizzare "illegal" quote by Seth+Finkelstein · · Score: 5, Informative
      Take a look at the legal criteria for fair use
      (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

      (2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

      (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

      (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

      They're trying to make an argument which goes to at least element #4. Remember, this an EFFECT test. That's not the same as the idea of being possible to do it with much more work before these sorts of PVRs

      Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)

  4. DEAR GOD! by fluxrad · · Score: 5, Funny

    I agree this PVR trend has gone quite far enough! If we continue to let people use these "magic boxes" to record TV shows, pause them, skip the commercials, or pretty much view the shows as they want to view them, then its only a matter of time before we slip into total anarchy!

    It's a snowball effect....even today, I've been hearing rumors of people that buy blank reels of magnetic tape and put them in short, wide, black boxes to record shows when they're not home! They even use other buttons on their new-fangled "remote controls" other than Play, Pause, and Stop."

    Someone stop this insanity before the child-actors from "Different Strokes" become destitute and are forced to rob convenience stores!

    --
    "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
  5. Good. Kill it by chrisgon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You know, the death of television has been direly predicted each time one of these "TV enhancers" has debuted.

    Betamax will kill TV
    Cable service will kill (network) TV
    Videogames will kill TV
    VHS will kill TV
    Rentals will kill TV (and movies)
    Internet will kill TV (and movies and music and the American way blah blah blah)
    Now PVR's will kill TV

    OK. So why hasn't TV died yet? We've been TRYING to kill it, but it just won't die. Maybe we're not trying hard enough. Lord knows that if Network TV died, I certainly wouldn't miss it, and I doubt the rest of the world would miss it either.

    Just let the model die and a newer more better model will emerge. Guaranteed.

  6. Re:Commercials by ghostlibrary · · Score: 5, Insightful

    " The most disturbing part of the story is that they claim deleting commercials is violating the copyright."

    Well, doesn't the fact that they cut portions of the show to add room for new commercials mean they have already violated the copyright of the original show producers/owners, then...

    --
    A.
  7. Here's the real reason they don't like PVRs. by oGMo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's called Prime Time. It's what advertisers pay them bigtime for, and when all the most popular shows get scheduled. After all, this is the time the largest target audience is going to be watching.

    Now, VCRs aren't such a big deal, because they're clunky and inconvenient. Programming them is a pain. Manually recording defeats most of the point, since you still have to be there.

    Throw into the mix PVRs, though, and Prime Time becomes any time. If everyone has a PVR (and they could eventually... they're cheap, and so convenient), there's no reason to schedule a show during any particular hour, since that's probably not when it'll get watched. There will be no time-based competition. Advertisers won't see the point in paying extra for any particular timeslot. By controlling the horizontal and vertical, they're getting more money, and now they see PVRs taking that away.

    So everyone go get/build a PVR if you want to stick it to them.

    On a somewhat on-topic note, it's really easy to build one of these things, too. The software is already there in parts, it just needs a little glue. Check out mp1e for encoding, or anything else you like such as low-bitrate DivX. Combine this with mplayer or something and a little at, cron, or various web-based TV recording stuff on freshmeat and there you've got it. I already do this all manually and it works better than TV (skipping ads is really worth it, not to mention not missing shows), and I'm planning on putting together a box with 3-4 TV cards to do this in a dedicated manner. Go PVRs.

    --

    Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

  8. Re:Unlogic by mshomphe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's not what I was saying. Here it is in short:

    1. The airwaves are (should be) free. That means (theoretically) anyone can fire signals through the air. However, since that would make things really messy really fast, there's a licensing scheme to make the airwaves useable. Basically, if someone puts out a signal on the public spectrum, I can watch it (but not resell it or violate any copyrights on the material that the broadcaster might have).
    2. Because of (1), I can BUILD my own TV (or in your example, my own car for a highway) to view the signals whipping through the air. And I can view it however I like, any color scheme, any time of the day, etc.
    3. Also, because the airwaves are public property, the networks can't just start encrypting those publicly owned airwaves. It's like a private company fencing off a public park and charging admission to get in.
    4. Because TV is a linear stream and there was no way to circumvent that linearity, commercials made sense. Interpose ads in the stream.
    5. Because of the advent of TiVo, &c., the broadcast stream becomes non-linear, rendering the commercial model obsolete.

    The correct response to this is NOT to sue the manufacturers of TiVO, &c., it's to change the business model of television. This is expensive, so they decide to sue these replayer manufacturers instead -- a stopgap solution at best. Broadcasters chose to get into this business and to use the commercial model for generating revenue. That's their problem. The onus is on them to revise their business models, not to sue those who found a way to legally circumvent their revenue stream.

    --
    She sat at the window watching the evening invade the avenue.
  9. Jack Valenti Quote by Hieronymus+Howard · · Score: 5, Informative

    Courtesy of the New York Times:

    'The growing and dangerous intrusion of this new technology,' Jack Valenti said, threatens an entire industry's 'economic vitality and future security.'
    Mr. Valenti, the president of the Motion Picture Association of America, was testifying before the House Judiciary Committee, and he was ready for a rhetorical rumble. The new technology, he said, 'is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston Strangler is to the woman alone.'

    It was 1982, and he was talking about videocassette recorders.


    And they're still as paranoid and as utterly wrong now as they were 20 years ago.

    HH