Slashdot Mirror
HP Selling Systems With Linux
jeffy124 writes: "We were all very upset last August when Dell discontinued selling Linux on their machines. Good news - HP's picking up the slack. They're shipping machines pre-installed with Red Hat 7.1. Unfortunately, checking their website shows that only business machines will have a Linux option; home machines are still WinXP only."
For servers nix is amazing. For desktops, X still lacks too much to offer it as an alternative to Win.
30% off web hosting. Coupon code "SLASHDOT".
"Unfortunately, checking their website shows that only business machines will have a Linux option; home machines are still WinXP only."
The last thing "linux needs" right now is a bunch of unhappy home users with an OS that isn't quite ready for a casual user.... And it just isn't.
But... RH 7.1 is a poor distro... Why not 7.2?
Dell is still installing Redhat on its servers/workstations.
here is a link.
I SURVIVED THE GREAT SLASHDOT BLACKOUT OF 2002!
Unfortunately, checking their website shows that only business machines will have a Linux option; home machines are still WinXP only.
So much for the claim that Linux is only a toy, not ready for the business environment.
Nope, no sig
I want all the sweets like hot-plug IDE devices (CD, DVD, CD-RW and floppy!), halt to memory and DVD playback.
Until all those are made available out-of-the-box, Linux does not exist for me on laptops (or desktops for that matter). That's why I still use WinME on my laptop. At least that way I can watch my DVDs and swap DVD/CD-RW to a 3.5" drive without resetting the computer.
The owls are not what they seem
So what I'd really like to see is the ability to buy an absolutely clean system from a major vendor at a significant discount (i.e. no MS tax).
Imagine a Beowulf... ::head rings as he his slapped collectively by hundreds::
By the way, what is the difference in cost on these machines without the Microsoft Tax?
The speed of time is one second per second.
Who would want an HP 'home machine' anyway? Esp. after the previous Slashdot story with lots of comments about how badly made they are and how clueless / obstructionist the tech support is...
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Why are they shipping a distro that is nearly 1 year old! Especially considering it's successor has been out for months.
Also, what happened with this rumoured mandrake on hp i've been hearing about? Were't they putting Mandrake as an option on home PC's ?
I get more coffee breaks due to reboots!
The govt has been stepping up ... this is where they should step up. Let the consumer choose the OS they would like.
Don't give me the, they have to because of a license agreement crap. It CAN be done if they choose to. That is why I ALWAYS suggest to a friend to by their computers LOCAL, you can always pick what OS you would like to use.
Only one of the many reasons buying your own custom system from a local vendor makes sense.
What about the HP LHr series, intel based, servers? They have been shipping with RedHat Linux for years.
Sure they are "servers" but they make a decent SMP workstation too with a Matrox G400 MAX installed.
It is not a very big step for HP, packing Linux on the workstations.
Not in my opinion.
Local Fry's (San Jose, CA) is selling PCs with Linux preinstalled. If you want WinXP, you need to pay extra.
Je ne parle pas francais.
first I want to hate them for this
but now they go and start ptting linux on there machines. What a person to do???
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The reason that they are shipping a year old system is that that is what they tested with. They confirmed that their hardware will all function fine under that version of Linux. They must have fully tested and configured all aspects of the machine to be confident that what they are selling will work with the minimal amount of fuss.
Since they may have spent six months or more testing, tweaking and then retesting, that is what they will ship. The testing cycle of any new product takes time and care. Simply slapping it together and seeing that is "mostly" works is just not good enough to put your name on something.
HP is probably beginning to test or are nearing completion of testing Red Hat 7.2 on their systems. In another 6 months or so, they will probably have those systems ready to ship.
That is the way that business operates. You will understand when, or if, you get into a position with a company that is looking at updating systems. Knowing that something "works" is not the same as knowing that it works by testing the heck out of it.
--
.sig seperator
--
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
HP has been selling Linux workstations for a long time now. Their first ones were the Visualize xl and pl, and came with RedHat 6.something preinstalled. Only now they have been replaced with the x**00 series; some more information about them is available here.
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
We keep seein these articles with titles like is linux ready for the desktop?, is linux good enough for business, etc. I think these tend to blind us to the fact that the update of Linux has been nothing short of stunning.
Remember, just four years ago sys admins had to hide their Linux systems so the boss wouldn't find out about them. And now, IBM, HP, Compaq, Sun and other heavy hitters of the IT industry are increasingly basing their strategies around it. And we all know that Sun didn't even really want to, they were forced to by changes in the market. That demonstrates the power of the change that is taking place.
I had a go at using Linux in 1998. From many perspectives, it was, frankly, crap. Look where we are today, less than four years later.
People always assume that everything happens really quickly in the IT industry, but it isn't so. Things take time. Decades sometimes. The amount of mindshare that Linux has got in the last four years is just fantastic. The revolution is happening, and it's happening quickly.
People say that Linux can never compete on the desktop. I'm not so sure. At the moment it's grabbing bites out of virtually every other niche market in a way that Bill Gates must have dreamt about doing in the past. Now it must be giving him nightmares.
I can't wait to see what's going to happen in the next four years.
On a business PC, I see a "OpenOS with Mandrake CD option" but no Redhat option.
xe310-s2 system.
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
Our organization is looking at these closely as an possible replacement for Sun machines on the desktop. Running Linux on Intel hardware is very compelling from a price/performance perspective.
The Good Thing® about HP supporting these is the assurance of the big name. Linux may be ready for the enterprise, but no one wants to be the pioneer, anymore than anyone wants to be the pioneer for WinXP in the corporate environement. Conservatism rules.
In corporate IT support, you'd get real nervous rolling out brand X hardware and a Linux distribution whose track record of worthiness is only proven on the desktops of individual expert hackers. When hundreds of newbies pound the keyboards, you want to be reassured and know what to expect to face in terms of support issues.
Enterprise-wide experience coming from a large company like HP (it could just as well have been IBM or Sun) is precisely helpful in this regard. The slightly outdated distribution is actually an encouraging sign that a lengthy test period has gone into the whole setup.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I will be a trully happy man when HP can give tech support to those of us who insist on putting Linux on their Laptops.
And i'd like to order Linux. I very much doubt that there'd be too many people accidentally choosing the Linux option.
If anythimg it'll lower the cost of their machines as they get out from the Microsoft tax, making them better options for us system builders.
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
because they need to evalute each version against there systems.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Linux was available on this laptop, but it was kind of silly to take that version for an extra few bucks, especially since we planned on freebsd anyway . . .
hawk
Just out of curiosity, are there any major manufactures who will install non-redhat distros?
You want to integrate the robustness (is this a word) of Linux in a Corporate environment FIRST. This way, when the people who are running these systems go home at the end of the day, and have to use Windows on their home PC, they will wonder why.
Microsoft dominates the Home User due to the fact that it is what people most run AT WORK. If the foothold takes, and Linux actually gets more than "Geek" approval, it will be a major step towards eliminating the Microsoft dominated users.
It will require applications, and with home access via Broadband, people will also want to use the same applications. this could start a trend towards "If it isn't available, I will create it" similar to what happened under Windows. the development tools are already there. Linux just needs to be a presence and illustrate its effectiveness in daily Business Use.
It would be great if DELL and COMPAQ would get back on the bandwagon, but sometimes you take what you can get.
You keep going until you die..."Me".
This is no loss.
1. Home users have time to build and install their own systems.
2. Regular Linux users never buy prebuilt computers.
3. People interesting in learning Linux are also plausible to build their own system.
4. Joe Ordinary considering Linux will also consider having his friend - Joe Geek - build and set up a Linux box as his desktop machine.
In otherwords, people considering Linux don't turn to HP.
A little digression: how would Joe Ordinary react if his new PC didn't come with Windows, but with Linux? He just ordered a PC assuming it ran Windows.
Look a monkey!
I for one, have gotten so far into the "Buy computer, reformat computer" mindset that it would be hard for me to accept a prefab computer even if it *did* have my obscure operating system of choice.
Got Rhinos?
Yep! AND...if you want to, you can order a server with no OS installed -- not Windows, not Linux, not anything. So you can do it from scratch and choose your own distro. Mighty good stuff, IMHO.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
HP was gracious enough to loan me one of these machines for a couple of weeks; so that I could write a review of it. I've only had it for a day, but it appears to be everything that one could ask for in a Linux graphics workstation. It's incredibly fast, has unbelieveable graphics, and has a customized RedHat configuration that just works.
HP has seen the light, too, and is running XFree86 instead of the custom Xserver inherited from their HPUX platforms. Their first Linux boxes, released about a year ago, weren't running XFree, IIRC.
More to follow, of course. One line summary -- The machines are real, and they rock.
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
hawk
(Not that I couldn't have found the info -- I'm a tech-type/engineering dood, after all -- but I just didn't have the time. If it's not in the user manual for the hardware, I'm not going to search for it.)
In December, I purchased Mandrake 8.1 and was blown away. It's actually *easier* to install than Windows was. Yes, the desktop has its irritations -- for example, because of my eyes, I can't go higher than 800x600, and some of the windows in KDE are "fixed" at higher resolution, so part of the window runs off the screen -- but I am having a blast.
My point, of course, is that zillions of people like me are discovering Linux for the first time. We are enjoying it very much. Like one poster says here, rather than being upset that Linux is taking two steps f'wards and one step b'wards, be glad of the fact that it's making inroads. Plus, you DON'T want it to be released to the unwashed masses until it's completely ready.
(My own experience a couple of years ago almost soured me to Linux, but a fellow engineer encouraged me to try the latest distros. I'm glad I did.)
The only reason I keep Windows in a dual boot was so that I could run Turbo Tax and a few games. But everything else is done in Linux now. I also expect this problem to go away in the future. I'm committed.
Patience, folks. Linux is getting there. Rather than worrying about a minor setback today, be confident of where Linux will be in a year or two.
Even YOU might be surprised. :)
I'm pretty sure HP ships Mandrake, not Red Hat:
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-826283.html
"HP to support Mandrake Linux on desktops
By Matthew Broersma
ZDNet (UK)
January 30, 2002, 11:00 AM PT
France's MandrakeSoft has teamed up with Hewlett-Packard in the open source camp's latest foray into the desktop PC market. The agreement, announced on Tuesday ahead of the LinuxWorld Expo, will see HP build and promote Mandrake Linux-based desktop PCs for European and North American businesses.
Linux is based on an open source license that prevents any one company from owning the software, and competes against Microsoft's dominant Windows operating system, which is kept under tight proprietary control. So far, however, Linux has mainly succeeded in the server market, where ease-of-use is less important than reliability and performance.
The HP deal aims to address some of the problems that have prevented desktop users from adopting Linux, such as the lack of technical support.
Mandrake Linux will be certified on all of HP's business PCs, and will be offered in a premium package that includes telephone, on-site and remote support. MandrakeSoft is to provide technical support for HP's teams, according to the companies. The PCs will also be available without support.
"This alliance is a testament to HP's strong commitment in Linux market," said Eric Rueda, software marketing manager of HP Business Desktops division, in a statement.
Other companies have tried selling Linux on desktops in the past. Dell stopped offering Red Hat Linux on its desktop and notebook PCs last autumn, citing lack of demand, but says there is more potential for the software on servers and workstations."
Why are they using RedHat 7.1? 7.2 is much better. It supports ext3(which irradicates the one problem I had with linux -- file systems could get hurt far too easily by a power failure) and the second-newest KDE(which is a fairly significant step in the right direction regarding eye-candy from the KDE in 7.1)
Sometimes I wonder about these companies............
It's been a long time.
Yes, but I want to have the freedom to choose how I want to obtain my PC-and-OS. If I want to buy a fully-built PC with a preinstalled OS, no problem. If I want to buy the components and build it from scratch, no big deal as I have the necessary know-how.
But I don't. I don't want to pay for the OS; I'd rather install MY operating system MY way. If that means Win 2K, then fine, I'll go out and buy a copy off the shelf. If that means SuSE or RedHat, fine, I can download it or buy it off the shelf. But I usually don't want to build the PC; I've been doing it for the last ten years, so I don't need the practise, and at this point I'm just as happy to buy the lowest-end desktop I can find and use it for bopping around, checking out different distros, that sort of thing. I'd rather spend the time loading software and experimenting with whatever-it-is I'm currently investigating. (Okay, breaking whatever-it-is I'm currently investigating, if you want to be pedantic.)
But I can't. Anyone see the problem here? I can buy everything as separate components and put it all together, or get the full package including OS from Dell or HP, but I can't get the in-between service that I want. Maybe it's just me (although at least one or two of the posts here make me think not), but I want the in-between service. I want to be able to buy a ready-built PC from Dell (or whomever) with a blank HDD and then choose what I want to do with it.
By the way, I sent in three e-mails at the beginning of this year to Dell customer service asking precisely how they could assist me with this request (i.e. to be able to buy a PC without an OS). Yep, I'm still waiting to hear back from them -- not even an acknowledgement of receipt thus far. Customer service? What customer service?
And they'll likely stay that way, remember back a while on /., this story (I sure I remember a more recent and more applicable one shortly after the death of BeOs but I couldn't find it anywhere. Either way HP does not have the option of selling a duel boot machine with linux and windows due to their agreement with M$. Acorrdingly the only way to sell a home machine with linux is to sell it with only linux. I suspect that most users who are good enough to use only linux will probably build their own machines in the first place.
I stole this Sig
Comment removed based on user account deletion
...cause Linux ain't personal yet. Microsoft already has a monopoly on the desktop; it's not like Linux will be losing marketshare.
With that in mind, it's probably better that Joe Sixpack doesn't get exposed to Linux at this point. Right now, it is likely that he will be turned off to it and hate it. When replaced with WinXP, Linux on the desktop, from a newbie point of view, will look horrible from a usability point of view.
Better to wait until it actually is easy to use without looking at half a dozen HOWTOs before unleashing on the masses.
For example: how does one install a new program on RedHat? Assuming it's an RPM, the user opens a command prompt and *bzzzt!* Linux just lost. On Debian, assuming you have a deb file, the user opens a command prompt and *bzzzt!* Linux just lost again. Are there GUIs for this? Sure. Are they sufficiently easy to use for a newbie (Are they easily accessible from the system menu or an icon)? Not yet.
Sure there's apt and Red Carpet, but those are for specific channels -- mainly Ximian and RedHat. The vast majority of Windows users use programs that are not in the standard Windows install. As such, installing programs on Linux that are not part of a standard distribution seems logical to me and necessary.
Browse to software site and download (or insert CD), double-click on file, and have it installed and ready to run without ever opening a command prompt or needed to read a manual or a HOWTO. You want Joe Sixpack who doesn't "get" computers and has no desire to "get" computers? This is the entrance fee.
After all, how many of you drive a car, but don't know how an engine works (or even what kind of airbag it has)? Knowing how it works should not be a prerequisite to using it.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
The point is this handheld will soon be shipping linux. They are actively building support for it right now. Hence the link to the linux status page.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
Yup, but I'm not sure that it's such a great deal since the reason for this is them dropping HP-UX.
Everybody repeat with me, there's 1 less version of Unix out there...
and from
I think I'll get the windows version and install debian myself.
Funny, I installed a new box with various obscure H/W that needs a stack of diskettes if I were to install Winblows. I was not too confident. But, guess what, I popped in my Mandrake 8.1, selected the parts I wanted installed and off it went and installed everything. Everything works, including better graphics resolution than they promised with Winblows.
My wife just runs it without problems, she only cares if it can read email and surf.
You haven't been paying much attention to OEM licensing discussions, have you? Linux Refund Day provided a great object lesson. The per-unit price for Windows is negligible. And that price is already paid whether your unit ships with Windows or not. To avoid the "Microsoft tax", OEMs will have to abandon Windows. And as much as I would like to see OEMs have that option, right now they don't.
I know that assembling this stuff on your own, you could probably cut the cost at least in half. Look at this quote sheet from hp.com:
A7796A HP workstation X1000 Base SPU with Linux 1 $650.00
A7796A ABA U.S. - English localization 1 $0.00
A7801A 2.0GHz Pentium 4 Processor (478 pin) 1 $750.00
A7801A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A6065A NVIDIA Quadro2 Pro graphics accelerator 1 $700.00
A6065A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A7243A 3 button PS2 mouse (no scroll) 1 $10.00
A7243A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A6060A 36GB 10K SCSI disk for IA32 systems 1 $550.00
A6060A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A7244A SCSI controller card Ultra 160 (PCI) 1 $130.00
A7244A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A7794A 256MB PC133 ECC SDRAM DIMM for X1000 2 $120.00 $240.00
A7794A 0D1 Factory integrated 2 $0.00
A7808A HP 16X max DVD ROM Drive 1 $150.00
A7808A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A7807A HP 16X max CD R/W ROM drive 1 $200.00
A7807A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
H4396A No Additional Support 1 $0.00
subtotal $3,380.00
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
Unlike XP - do you suppose that you actually get the Linux CD's instead of a recovery partition? ;-)
EQ
DOAC
UO
AO
I'd continue with the acronyms, but I'm risking invoking the lameness filter.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
MS simply replaced "per-processor" licenses with "per-model" licenses. They still have the same stranglehold over OEMs though, so if the OEMs get uppity and try to sell a separate model of PCs with no OS, Microsoft can give them the back-of-the-hand treatment and raise their Windows license costs.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Alas, it won't be so. The so called Microsoft Tax amounts to about $100. I was a technical support supervisor for one of the major PC manufacturers, so I had some involvment in cost analysis of the PC's we sold. Our licensing costs on the OS was between $35 and $45 (depending on the version) and Office ran about $45. Why so cheap? Obviously volume plays a significant role, but also Microsoft had no involvment in the manufacturing of the media. We received a "master" set of discs that were in turn shipped to our manufacturer who then made the media that we shipped. Microsoft incurred no costs outside of development.
Another reason that you probably won't see "clean" systems is that most computer manufacturers are seeking to reduce the number of configurations available in order to reduce the cost of building the systems. Before I left my job in the PC manufacturing industry, my company had an exraordinarily broad catalog with substantial overlap between home and business systems, as well as a number of configurations that were rarely selected. That variety costs money...and also leads to mistakes, such as an overly ambitious salesperson who happily bundles a DVD drive, CD drive and CD-RW drive into a desktop system that has two 5.25" bays. But I digress...
The number of systems that customers would order blank is vanishingly small as a percentage of total sales. My company would do it, but only for their "key" customers, organizations that ordered systems by the hundreds. Otherwise, it just wasn't worth it, particularly with the razor-thin margins in the business.
I guess one way of looking at it is that because of the rapacious competition in the industry we're paying extraordinarily low prices for computers today. Sure, the extra $80-$90 that you pay for the OS and application software seems unfair, but on the other hand, the total system price is, quite frankly, a bargain, even with the inclusion of the unwanted OS.
My suggestion (and I'm sure there's no shortage of those similar to it) is that if you want a system with a clean drive, you should build it yourself.
-h-
A client needed some work done on a few of their Linux systems. They allow incoming traffic onto their LAN only through their Intel NetStructure VPN appliance. No problem, "send me the client software" I said, and they did. It was for Windows only!
So I undertook some research. Intel bought their NetStructure line from Shiva some time ago. After a few of their (Intel's) chip customers complained long and hard about competitive issues a la pre-packaged devices such as NetStructure, Intel decided to get out of the appliance biz. Then stopped making the NetStructure VPN appliance. They sold it to HP. Here's Intel's announcement and here's HP's announcement. Here's an IT World story about the same thing. They all tell how Intel's NetStructure 31xx VPN Gateway product line will still be available through HP as the HP VPN Server Appliance SA3xxx series. These are basically old Shiva products - hence their use of SST (Shiva Secure Tunnel) tunnels which are AFAIK unique to these products.
Here's the catch: while these server appliances run Linux (I know I saw that somewhere but I can't remember where) they have no Linux client software! Here's Intel's support page (look for their client software support) and HP's support page - don't have the URL handy but I'm sure of it - contains the same information.
The upshot of all this is that in order to work on Linux systems at a remote location from my local PC, I have to pass through a VPN Gateway which also runs Linux, but I have to use Windows on my end for the VPN client. What a crock! I looked into free/Swan but it doesn't do Shiva Secure Tunnels. Until HP gets serious about this one particular product line and gets some Linux client sotware into the picture, I'm steering clear of anything else they may trumpet as part of their "We do Linux" hype.
You won't be the first one to put Linux on a desktop in a corporate environment. Cisco Systems already has an official Linux desktop distro (although they also support Win2k and Solaris/Sun workstations - part of an excellent program to give their employees the tools they need/want). And I was rather shocked to hear that an aerospace contractor in the local area has a Linux desktop deployment (I've always seen Aerospace contractors as ultra-conservative with IT).
I have to wonder how many other corporate environments are quietly implementing Linux. Not in their server room. Not in their product. On the desktop.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I don't see how that decission makes sense. A business who want to run Linux should have at least one person who can administrate a Linux box, and such a person would most likely want to install a "company standard" Linux distribution on all computers.
On the other hand, a home user may wish to run Linux because he has experience as a Unix user from work or school, but with no desire of doing more administrative work than necessary. For him, a preinstalled Linux would be usefull.
the last step is to load the OS onto the HDD
to sell it blank you get to skip this step
skipping the OS load requires less effort, less time, and less testing
it costs more to manufacture the product without the OS
I just think that's crazy talk
For a small capacity production line, I agree, it would be more efficient and cheaper to ship with a blank drive. But for a large (thousands of systems a week), a blank system is a huge deviation from the norm. Typically the OS load is not the last step...it's among the last steps, but operational tests are the last steps, and they depend on some portion of the OS to be loaded. Skip that step for a vanishingly small percentage of systems and a new process has to be implemented...and that comes at a cost. Large manufacturers simply cannot afford to implement processes like that for such a tiny number of systems. The margins just don't allow it...but that provides opportunities to smaller shops to fill the niche.
-h-