HP Selling Systems With Linux

jeffy124 writes: "We were all very upset last August when Dell discontinued selling Linux on their machines. Good news - HP's picking up the slack. They're shipping machines pre-installed with Red Hat 7.1. Unfortunately, checking their website shows that only business machines will have a Linux option; home machines are still WinXP only."

Comments

As it should be for now

[Solokron]

For servers nix is amazing. For desktops, X still lacks too much to offer it as an alternative to Win.

Re:As it should be for now

[maxpublic]

What precisely does it lack? Specifics please, and quite a few given that you specified "too much".

Max

Re:As it should be for now

[weave]

X offers lots that Windows doesn't. The most useful to me is one app in one place that I can access anywhere. My job requires me to have two different offices. I run my X apps from one large system we provide to everyone. Mozilla, licq, etc, are all configured once, my prefs once, my contacts, once, etc, etc... I'm running the app on the same box irregardless of location. The only way I could do something similar in Windows is run a vnc server on a workstation and have vnc client everywhere, and then it's a dog...

Re:As it should be for now

[Solokron]

In my opinion the installation system needs improvement, the documentation and support on software is severely lacking such as helpful, intuitive documentation for the average computer illiterate. OLE is still horid right now and having outside applications in aid of this helps, but does not confront the underlying issue. Gaming support which highly drives the desktop industry is again, amazingly lacking in X. These are all improving in time and eventually we will get there. We are not there yet. As in servers. Nothing can compete with a highly optimized nix box. Any Win box has to deal with an abundance of software layers to go through when dealing with any process where is an nix box cuts straight to the chase.

Re:As it should be for now

[maxpublic]

Try SuSe 7.3. I've installed it on a number of systems and it's amazingly slick; far faster than Windows, didn't once ask for a driver disk, doesn't have to reboot, and comes with all the software the average user might need.

The issue of games is the only reason I still have a dual boot. I'm a gaming fan and have a Windows partition because of that, but that's the only thing I still use Windows for.

As for documentation, I find the Windows equivalent to be equally incomprehensible for the computer illiterate. This isn't a problem with Linux but with the documentation itself, as well as the people who write the utilities not having a firm grasp of what the average person is capable of understanding (the Control Panel is well beyond the 'average user', in my experience).

Although if we wait ten years this won't be much of a problem. The next generation seems to have an intuitive grasp of computers that older generations lack. Working with middle school kids I found that the problem with understanding the machines is primarily one of age - my students had no difficulties with Linux whatsoever and preferred to to Windows because they could do so much more with it (sometimes to my dismay).

Max

Re:As it should be for now

[Hammer]

Same applies to Mandrake 8.1
My kids have Win for their games, and I had to reinstall some time ago. Not a very entertaining job...

Re:As it should be for now

[RMSIsAnIdiot]

It's called Remote Desktop/Terminal Services. Comes with XP Pro. Connect with any citrix or terminal server client, or just install IIS 5.1 and you've got the web client. Ta dah!

Oh, about "having vnc client everywhere" is total BS, buddy. Install VNC and just HTTP to port 5800 (or 5801++, depending on the screen port number) and ta dah, you have a java applet vnc client available to any web browser.

However, I highly recommend Remote Desktop over anything else. Unlike X, it provides a total environment to the local user. It even maps a sound driver to the local machine so if I play mp3 files on the remote machine, they actually come out of the client's speakers 1000 miles away! Try doing that with X or VNC. Also, unline VNC, Remote Desktop actually _works_. By that I mean, I can open a web browser and scroll down and actually have the screen refresh in real time. It's really polished, gives you a run for your money. I suggest you try it.

Re:As it should be for now

[weave]

I'll wait until the inevitable holes in it are patched before trusting it. Remember, Microsoft just became serious about security. Let's wait until serious intentions translate into reality.

(Waiting to read one day that watching a video through WMP will open my desktop to remote access, for example! :)

Re:As it should be for now

[RMSIsAnIdiot]

Ok, enough of your need to spread FUD.

It's Terminal Services. It's been around since NT4 Terminal Server (at least 1998, if I am correct).

4 years not enough for you?

Re:As it should be for now

[geekoid]

irregardless
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Re:As it should be for now

[rosewood]

I run WinXP and do a lot of VNC remote access

Can you point me in the direction of a howto, step by step, or just email or icq me on how to set this up?

Re:As it should be for now

[weave]

Is it in NT or 2000 Workstation? No. And before I start allowing desktop users to do something like this, it needs a heckofalot of study. All of a sudden everything firewall-wise between inside and outside goes out the window.

You don't find a feature like this available to all users just the slight bit worrisome? Most companies do...

It's not FUD, it's normal safe business practices...

Re:As it should be for now

[RMSIsAnIdiot]

It's painfully easy to set up.

1) Right click My Computer -> Properties

2) Select the Remote Tab. Under Remote Desktop, select the "Allow users to connect remotely to this computer" check box.

3) Click "Select Remote Users..." and select your users. Note that everyone in the Administrators group already has access.

4) Click OK and you're off.

Also, make sure you have port 3389 UDP/TCP opened on your firewall... that's the RDP port (which is different from VNC, which uses up to 100 different ports, 5800-5899 if I'm not mistaken.)

You need the Remote Desktop Client, or any Windows Terminal Server client. There's ones for almost every Windows OS on the XP CD. You can also go to Start -> Help n Support -> Working Remotely and there is a guide to set up Remote Desktop Web Connection, which installs IIS 5.1 with a web client, so you can basically remote to your computer from anywhere with a web browser.

I also forgot to mention that one of the perks of Terminal Server is that it can map local host drives to the remote machine, as well as printers, provided the correct driver is available on the remote machine. Purty cool, if you ask me.

Re:As it should be for now

[Isle]

Actually the X-protocol is cool in how extensible it is, this has been it's strength and survival, just it has been OpenGLs. They have ended up with the same problem: Too many extensions.

OpenGL is doing the rigth thing with the new OpenGL2. All we need is to define a new basis that incorperates all the standard extensions such shape, render and many others. But who is the company behind to push a X12?

Re:As it should be for now

[Audras]

What precisely does it lack? Specifics please, and quite a few given that you specified "too much".
Oh, that's easy.

1. Working web browser. No mozilla, please. I simply can't afford waiting ~2 mins to restart it after each crash.
2. I need to copy pictures from Gimp, Acrobat reader or wahtever and paste them into text processor.
3. Where is my control panel? Oh, don't point me at these two hundred horrible files in /etc. Besides, when i click on them, nothing happens!
4. I just bought a new piece of hardware. I want to install the drivers! Common, I don't know what "compile" and "kernel" means!
5. Unicode? Multilanguage support? Nice looking fonts?

Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[SlideGuitar]

"Unfortunately, checking their website shows that only business machines will have a Linux option; home machines are still WinXP only."

The last thing "linux needs" right now is a bunch of unhappy home users with an OS that isn't quite ready for a casual user.... And it just isn't.

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[ackthpt]

It'll be interesting to see how this goes if the Compaq merger goes through. I'm not so interested in a 'Home PC'&sup1 as I'd be in workstations. For now the only real option is build it yourself. Not that there's much wrong with that for the hobbiest, but it's a hard sell on the suits.

Home PC defined as something the average house ape can work with.

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[estoll]

I understand your point, but how many casual home users are going choose their operating system? The answer the last casual user gave me when I asked them what operating system they used was, "What is an operating system?"

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[ratboy666]

Linux is _more_ ready for the home user than
Windows is...
Each user does need a "sysadmin" or a person
who does "sysadmin" duties. Attempting to
administer your own box without knowledge is
not a terrifically good idea. If there are
people in the neighbourhood who can help with
the administration of a Windows system, Windows
may be a good choice. If the "sysadmin" is remote,
Linux is a better choice.

Many users do _not_ play the latest whiz-bang
games (certainly my grandma doesn't). My grandma
needs a reliable information appliance that:

1 - works reliably
2 - is easy to use
3 - is crash resiliant
4 - software shouldn't cost more than hardware.

Linux fits the bill nicely. Point 1: Linux 2.2
is stable, Windows XP may be stable. 2: Windows
is point and click; so is KDE. I can configure
KDE to "protect" grandma from herself, I can't
do this with Windows 9x, maybe with XP... 3:
Linux offers logging file systems. Last time I
checked (Windows 98), the check-disk procedure
for a 60GB drive took in excess of 1/2 hour.
Maybe XP solves this... Also, Linux handles
application crashes more gracefully than Windows
9x. 4: Here is the big item. Grandma uses a
Pentium 266, purchased second hand, _without_
a Windows license. Putting on Windows 9x (XP)
would run around $200CDN, Office would be another
chunk of money. The entire machine is worth
$600CDN. Can't really justify the cost of Windows
here, given Linux does a _better_ job than
Windows 9x (not sure about XP though).

I remotely administer this box on behalf of
Grandma, and she is quite happy with the result.
Yes, the "why not Windows/Office" question has
come up, because that's what the neighbours use,
and that's what the grandkids _want_ to use
(for those shiny games), but the cost issue put
the kibosh on the idea.

Yes, Linux is READY for mass consumption.

Ratboy

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[steve_l]

I think your point about remote admin is the key one: unix may be too complex for a normal individual to look after, but so is securing your home windows server against network attacks.

But all these home users need to know someone who will remote manage the box. Do we need to start a 'mentor a home PC user' program?

I should point out that I did work in a tier 1 home PC operation, and there is enough of a minority of purchasers who dont know how to use a mouse to kill support margins. These are the people who drive down to walmart and buy a PC, and they and their friends are some of the people that the home vendors target. Linux is too much for them; hey, even WinXP is dangerously complex.

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[NumberSyx]

I agree with you, but get ready for some flames, Windows users get mad when you suggest they paid $189 dollars for something they could have gotten for free.

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[rutledjw]

I completely agree with you. I'm a Linux supporter and it just isn't ready for the average user. To make it there we need a desktop with configuration tools which are intuitive to the average user and make sure all the fluff (extension matches, etc.) works correctly.

Even then, I'm not sure Linux is for the average person, another poster (on another story) made the best comment I've heard yet:

• Linux is a UNIX alternative, not a Windows alternative

A *nix-type OS requires a competent user. I'm truly uncomfortable turning this over to the average person. Granted, Apple has done a nice job with OS X. Therefore, I suppose it can be done, but the OSS way probably won't work.

Time will tell. I DO wish that Apple would come put with an Intel-version of OSX...

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[mosch]

It's so refreshing to see somebody with common sense on slashdot. Casual desktop users don't want or need Linux yet; or BeOS for that matter. As much as I hate to admit it, W2K makes a pretty decent desktop for the average person.

Also, a correction on the story, you can still buy a Dell with Linux, Dell was just pragmatic enough to realize that Linux is currently a great choice for servers, but doesn't make sense for the desktop today.

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[ToasterTester]

Exactly, people don't understand how expensive it is to do tech support. Vendors do Windows because its a known quanity that's easy to support. Linux for newbies would be a very expensive proposition to support.

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[KernelSanders]

You've got Grandma. I've got my Dad.

My Dad was so resistant towards anything to do with computers and the WWW. But I set my parents up with WebTV several Christmases ago anyway. He almost bit my head off when I offered to set him up an email address on WebTV. It was really quite hostile. 'Don't ever bother me about that again.' Hey no problem. He is in his eighties and really really wanted less than nothing to do with it.

Until...

He became an Elder and the Elder group passed around a piece of paper to get everybody's email address. Bingo!

I then custom-made him a webpage for his stocks. Jackpot!

Needless to say, now he is hooked.

It never would have happened if it weren't for the ease of WebTV and the fact, like Tivo, it seemlessly integrates around the TV set in the den, which life sort of revolves around. I always believed that if you could just get it in the home, in the most inexpensive, non-intrusive, user-friendly way possible, they will come.

If their introduction to it was EASY enough, a lot of the natural resistance could be broken down.

I am amazed that things like WebTV and Tivo- turn-key appliances- don't have wider adoption. These are both killer ideas and apps for what they do.

Maybe even these dedicated appliances are too complicated-seeming for the average older person. There is a great fear and dread and hostility towards these new fangled gizmos.

I really think that how people are introduced to it makes all the difference. For whatever reasons, the introductions are either not happening or are not catching on.

Maybe things have to get easier. Maybe things have to be better advertised or promoted. Maybe it just needs more time.

"...unix may be too complex for a normal individual to look after..."---well, yes and I don't think there's any may about it.

I like it when people include Grandma in their thinking. Maybe it's a little analogous: older people and technology --- windows people and linux.

And they are cowardly and fear everything beforehand-for they have, in this respect, the opposite character from the young.
For they are chilly, and the young are warm; so old age prepares the way for cowardice, since fear, too, is a kind of chilling...

Aristotle on the elderly

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[Tony-A]

Why do you think Bill Gates is so rich?
Not by helping his customers.

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[NumberSyx]

Why do you think Bill Gates is so rich?

HMM, the words "Illegal Monopoly" come to mind

Re:Good thing they don't have a home linux option

[maxpublic]

I have a karma of 50. What do I care. Reposted to make the moderators insane:

"Well, perhaps if the casual user is *you* then yes. Making proclamations for other 'casual users' is damned silly."

Max

Crap... This is will likely be modded as flamebait

[einer]

But... RH 7.1 is a poor distro... Why not 7.2?

Dell...

[L-Wave]

Dell is still installing Redhat on its servers/workstations.

here is a link.

Re:Dell...

[anonymous_wombat]

I tried buying a Dell Linux machine back in the days when they supposedly supported it. You could only get it on a few models, you were not given the option on their website, and they did not set up machines for dual boot. It wasn't much of a surprise that they didn't sell that many of them.

Re:Dell...

[shoppa]

you were not given the option on their website

You only see the Linux options on certain machines, and only if you are looking at their business or small-business offerings.

That's good news, actually

[drew_kime]

Unfortunately, checking their website shows that only business machines will have a Linux option; home machines are still WinXP only.

So much for the claim that Linux is only a toy, not ready for the business environment.

Re:That's good news, actually

[Ace Rimmer]

This claims that linux is a bussiness OS, not ready for toy applications ;)

Re:That's good news, actually

[mrseigen]

Obviously it's still not good enough for some of the half-brain-dead AOL lamers that we see on Dell's "budget" line of personal computers..

Re:That's good news, actually

[October_30th]

Please try to close your tags properly in the future.

There is no such word as 'shareholdership'

Well, if there wasn't before I just made it up. If you don't like it, then please tell me how it is uninformative or misleading which might actually disqualify it as a brand new word?

Or are you one of those assholes who think that languages should not develop at all and that everybody should talk according to the definitions in some fucking reference book? Get a fucking life.

Finally, my native tongue is not English so I consider it my God-given right to abuse it in any way I want.

Re:That's good news, actually

[ScumBiker]

"Finally, my native tongue is not English so I consider it my God-given right to abuse it in any way I want."
Best laugh I've had in a week. Thank you.
I recently called Dell about getting a box (server) with Linux pre-installed. The box was the same price as a box with Win2k on it. No real savings there, is it? Anyway, I'm glad that HP is picking up the torch. Obviously, IBM has put a bug up everybody's ass about Linux. Cool

Re:That's good news, actually

[zpengo]

So much for the claim that Linux is only a toy, not ready for the business environment.

In fact, it's only ready for the business environment. They're the only ones who can through the resources at it necessary to use it. Joe Average User doesn't have the money to buy books or time to read them in order to figure out Linux when he knows how to use Windows just fine.

Re:That's good news, actually

[Bilestoad]

You must be joking - as if HP has an opinion you can trust. Ten years ago, for sure. Post-Carly, no way. I'd rather hear what HP thinks I should have for dinner tonight than what they think is a good solution for my business.

Roll on the merger vote! I can't wait to see her fired from the CEO job.

Re:That's good news, actually

[Tenebrious1]

Yeah, ditto here. I run a pretty large HP shop, and well that 24x7x4 support has been lacking of late. When I lose a server, I don't need a clueless engineer in 4 hours just to fulfill the service contract. I need someone with a bag full of parts and a brain full of solutions. HP has NOT been providing that lately. I've talked to a few other large HP customers at recent HP roundtables who have said the same thing. We've all been complaining to HP and considering switching to IBM corporate services.

Remember, people buy linux from HP, IBM, and other RedHat because they want the support that comes with the product. Otherwise they'd install linux themselves. With the way HP Corporate Support has been declining, I certainly wouldn't suggest an HP product to the CEO at this time. In fact, he'd laugh if I did.

Re:That's good news, actually

[sgage]

"Finally, my native tongue is not English so I consider it my God-given right to abuse it in any way I want."

Which is exactly what has made English the expressive and excellent language that it is today - thanks for a great new word :-)

- sgage

Laptops

[October_30th]

What about the laptops?

I want all the sweets like hot-plug IDE devices (CD, DVD, CD-RW and floppy!), halt to memory and DVD playback.

Until all those are made available out-of-the-box, Linux does not exist for me on laptops (or desktops for that matter). That's why I still use WinME on my laptop. At least that way I can watch my DVDs and swap DVD/CD-RW to a 3.5" drive without resetting the computer.

Re:Laptops

[filtrs]

I've been using Linux on a laptop for quite a while now ... Although I don't have DVD, I have to disagree about the swapping bit of your statement. I regularly hot-swap CD and 3.5" and it works every bit as well as under Win.

Re:Laptops

[October_30th]

Really?

Is it some rmmod/modprobe kludge?

One shouldn't have to fire up the command line for such a simple task (which also goes for mounting media!).

Re:Laptops

[Lumpy]

Redhat 7.2 and the latest Compaq Evo.

I got all that, except for the hot plug IDe devices (floppy isnt ide, and 98,me200,xp all freak when you hotplug a floppy and it becomes a DVD drive.) The floppy will not come back after switching back on compaq's at least.

besides, when has anyone used a floppy drive on a laptop anymore? leave the dvd drive in there and forget the one silly little requirement that hasn't impacted any users for the past 2 years.

I love watching dvd and divix files on my linux laptop... it's cool when people look over your shoulder and then say... "what is that!" and you say, "a free operating system that you can legally give copies to anyone you want. want a copy?" and then show them open office, and the plethora of other productivity apps.

I gained 5 new members to the local LUG that way.
Stealing microsoft customers one at a time is quite fun....

Re:Laptops

[jgerman]

Yeah, for all that I use... wait for it.... a tv and a DVD player. Wow the technological advances in the new century.

Re:Laptops

[October_30th]

I have a Compaq Presario 1700 with a DVD/CD-RW and a 3.5" drive.

When has anyone used a floppy dive on a laptop anymore?

And just how do you store your data permanently then? I'd rather give away floppies to my business contacts than the bloody expensive CD-R/W discs.

Regarding the DVD playback, did you show them how you have to download "illegal" code and compile it before you can even unlock the DVDs you're going to play? I bet you didn't.

Re:Laptops

[Lumpy]

I store it on the server's hard drive that get's tape backed up. (Wifi is awesome, along with VPN.) business contacts? email the document/file/whatever. no need for floppy at all.

Re:Laptops

[October_30th]

I store it on the server's hard drive that get's tape backed up.

They actually let you to connect your laptop to the company server? Lucky bastard.

Re:Laptops

[Lumpy]

Oh in response to the Illegal dvd playback code.

Yes, I did.. I showed them how I was destroying the United states at it's core, raping the corperations and killing the economy by watching a DVD I own.

everyone I show that and mention that the dvd player software is illegal mention "whoever made that law is stupid. I'd ignore it too."

so the stigma you try to paint only help me get the point to people that "illegal" to view my property is stupid. and starts even more conversation into the awesome abilities I have by running linux instead of that crippled Os from redmond.... But I digress... Yes I do, and it's easy, fun, and I still steal microsoft customers one at a time... It's fun!

Re:Laptops

[d3xt3r]

I have a Dell Inspiron 2100 (yes I had to pay the M$ tax to get it tho).

The day I got it, i ripped off 'doze and installed SuSE 7.3 on it. Now I have a 3.5 lb laptop running Linux with:

• sound working (no manual setup required).
• hot swappable external CD/Floppy (no reboot req'd to switch).
• Suspend to disk AND/OR suspend to RAM. This was easy, just make sure you leave the 256mb FAT partition at the beginning of the drive and mount it on boot!

Granted I have no DVD support (yet) but the computer works perfectly and is no longer infected with Winblows.

The only bad part is that I did pay the M$ tax, but it's still $400 cheaper than a "business class" system, and now it runs a powerful OS with very little work on my part.

Trust me, if you can download and install Mozilla or Gnutella or pracitcally anything else you can install Linux your computer! SuSE, Mandrake, and Red Hat make it practically fool proof.

Re:Laptops

[Tim Stadelmann]

Hot swapping floppy disks does not require any special care. IDE devices are a bit more complicated, and somewhat limited in their capabilities. You have to issue an appropriate system call. Newer versions of hdparm might help here, but if you're interested in a GUI tool, I've written one that should work if your CD/DVD is the only device attached to the secondary IDE interface (ide1).

But in general you're right, hot swapping and power management is very poorly supported in the linux kernel. (Actually, the core support is there but many drivers, notably the IDE stuff, don't use it.) Windows ME is actually not much better, hot swapping is still a bit of a kludge. Windows 2000 does it quite well. If you can get anything useful done with Windows, you're probably better off using it on a portable. I couldn't.

Re:Laptops

[Datafage]

Wow, some of us are college students who don't have room/money for that, and some people like to watch DVDs on planes or other locations without TVs. What was your sarcastic point again?

No OS option

[Drachemorder]

You know, while the Linux option is a very good thing, I'd be just as happy buying a box with a blank hard drive. What makes the Linux option good is simply that it doesn't come with a Microsoft OS that I don't intend to use in the first place. I really don't want to pay for something I have no plans to use, and I'm quite capable of installing Linux on my own from CDs I downloaded and burned.

So what I'd really like to see is the ability to buy an absolutely clean system from a major vendor at a significant discount (i.e. no MS tax).

Re:No OS option

[Dop]

I don't imagine you'd get a huge discount from the system not coming with an OS. I imagine they just copy an image onto the new drive and ship it.

You might save $100 bucks on a software license.

Re:No OS option

[Ace Rimmer]

You're kidding ;). So you're one of those who wants to taste the complete boring install process - setting it all up instead of just take and customize a working thing!

I wonder if you also move your furniture by yourself if you can have someone moving it for you ;)

Re:No OS option

[Drachemorder]

I've already done exactly that, actually. :) I'm not thinking about myself as much as the big picture --- I'd like to see the market develop this way so the average customer will have more choices at his fingertips.

Re:No OS option

[Kizzle]

I'm not sure if it's the case with their Linux boxes but they put a hell of allot of ads and useless programs on their windows machines because someone paid them to. I wonder if they would be losing money by selling a system with no OS.

Re:No OS option

[PHPee]

What about getting a Microsoft Refund? http://www.LinuxMall.com/Refund

Re:No OS option

[the_consumer]

You might save $100 bucks on a software license

What, do you wipe your ass with $100 bills or something? If the hardware costs you $800, you think it's OK to pay a 12.5% markup for an OS you won't even use? I'd rather spend that $100 on more RAM, a better video card, bigger HD, or faster cpu, thanks...

Re:No OS option

[einer]

What, do you wipe your ass with $100 bills or something?

Heavans no! The paper cuts just aren't worth the cool factor...

Re:No OS option

[DrCode]

Why do you require a 'major vendor'? PC's are built with generic parts, and lots of local shops will put one together for you for little more than the cost of those parts.

Frye's also sells 'bare' systems.

Re:No OS option

[DrCode]

Don't know about you, but some of us find it easier to sit for an hour clicking a mouse than trying to drag a 300 lb refrigerator up the stairs.

Re:No OS option

[rgmoore]

You might save $100 bucks on a software license.

Maybe more than $100. Just try to find a PC from one of the big OEMs that doesn't bundle some MS application software, either Office or Works Suite, with Windows. The OEM XP Home I got on my new machine (Hey! I have to have some system to play games and do my taxes.) was $99, although that was from PC Club rather than one of the top 10 vendors. Add in Works Suite and you're talking more like $150; Office would bump that to quite a bit more.

And don't underestimate $100 savings, either. Some cheap machines these days are retailing in the $500 range, so knocking $100 of the price is a relatively large chunk of the cost. Those may not be hot gaming machines, but they might be pretty decent for mundane office use.

Re:No OS option

[gmhowell]

Agreed. How in the heck can I be sure that they picked the right programs out of about 9000+ available for Debian? I'm sure RH and others have similar numbers. How do I know how it is set up?

If you are running a Linux box, at home, or anywhere, knowing what is there is very important. That much power can be a good thing, or it can be very, very bad.

Look at some of the specialty race cars of the late 60's that were sold as 'street cars' for homologation purposes. I know that the Boss Mustangs and many of the Hemi powered Chryslers had stickers saying "no warranty, you break it, you bought it" etc, etc. Even though these were the highest performance vehicles available at the time (for their intended purpose. No comments from the Porsche/Jaguar crowd). But they were also really dangerous in the hands of the untrained. The person buying this better damned site know what is going on.

Same thing with a Linux box.

Of course, perhaps M$ is best compared to Porsche 911's. Lot's of performance, but they pretend it is safe for the average slob. If you go from your Toyota/Honda FWD into a 911 with a 40/60 weight ratio... Guess you'll be learning mighty quick what oversteer means:) (Yes, I know this is largely corrected on the latest 911. I only hope M$ has fixed this on the latest XP:)

Re:No OS option

[Ami Ganguli]

Even when administering a commercial Unix server I normally wipe off the pre-installed OS and install from tape/cd. It just feels better knowing you've done it yourself and know exactly which optional packages are installed.

If I didn't reinstall from scratch I'd probably have to go through and audit the packages that the manufacturer installed. That's more hassle than just installing from scratch.

Re:No OS option

[praedor]

Well, M$ has always strongly fought this option. Afterall, according to M$, if people buy a blank computer, they are software pirates intending to load illegit copies of windoze on them.

Re:No OS option

[(startx)]

I saw it in a comment on here the other day, checkout the computer section of walmart.com, they've got 3 blank pre-built computers for sale. I'm checking out the 1.4Ghz Athlon with 256MB ram for $499 there right now.

Re:No OS option

[RicoX9]

Don't count on it making quite that big a difference. The major vendors have negotiated (or been beaten into) contracts that get them pretty steep discounts on the OS. Remember that they don't provide the physical media that you get with the boxed version you would buy. Nor is the license the same (transferrable to another PC). I would seriously doubt that they pay more than $30-40 per PC (if that much) for an XP Home Edition license. I still won't pay the MS tax, so I continue to build my own.

Re:No OS option

[ebh]

...which gives us a perect data point: The same machine with Windows XP home edition is $599. Therefore, we can assume that the M$ tax on machines you can't buy without XP is $100.

Too bad they don't tell you what motherboard it uses. Wouldn't it be ironic if Wal-Mart was the only mass marketer of great Linux-ready platforms other than the "Joe Halitosis PC Qwik-E-Mart" shops?

Re:No OS option

[Dop]

What I'm saying is that you won't get a discount due to saved labor costs. I just don't see a major vender passing that savings on to the consumer.

However, if you get 2 or 3 of the major venders to offer OSless machines, then you get a bidding war and everyone wins.

Re:No OS option

[Colin Bayer]

What, do you wipe your ass with $100 bills or something?

Good god, no! I much prefer the cuddly softness of Enron stock certificates.

Re:No OS option

[killmenow]

Of course you do. $100 bills are actually worth something.

Re:No OS option

[killmenow]

I'm one of those who would rather taste the complete boring install process than the even more boring, more frustrating, and much longer process of UNDO-ing all the CRAP the OEM did wrong on the default install.

Happens every time.

Re:No OS option

[jmichaelg]

I'm checking out the 1.4Ghz Athlon with 256MB ram for $499 there right now.

Watch out for the power supply. The only 250 watt psu AMD recommends is aopen's FSP250-60GTA. All the others power supplies are 300 watts, or more. I think you're asking for trouble going for a bottom of the line psu on an Athlon, especially one as fast as the 1.4.

Re:No OS option

[Colin Bayer]

What do you mean, "actually worth something?"

*surfs to check stock quotes for the first time in months*

Oh, dear god!

Re:No OS option

[Scooter]

I agree - I mean whilst I would very probably want GNU/Linux on my new PC - I wouldn't want an old version of RedHat (espcially with that dodgy version of ping) - so the first thing I'd be doing (if I bought one Today) would be feeding it my RH 7.2 CDs, and even if it was up to date - there's a lot of choices to make (if you want) when you install a recent Linux based OS, so I prefer to roll my own so to speak (hell I've only just come to terms with RPMs as opposed to installing everything from source - freshly cooked software tastes so much better :-)

I just have to say it

[Indras]

Imagine a Beowulf... ::head rings as he his slapped collectively by hundreds::

By the way, what is the difference in cost on these machines without the Microsoft Tax?

Re:I just have to say it

[ackthpt]

Not HP, but an interesting Beowulf Cluster.

Being as UCSC is in HP's backyard (well, AMD's, too...) I was a bit taken aback that it's not HP.

Re:I just have to say it

[jgerman]

Not much... only YOUR SOUL Muhahahahahaha ;)

No big deal

[Ed Avis]

Who would want an HP 'home machine' anyway? Esp. after the previous Slashdot story with lots of comments about how badly made they are and how clueless / obstructionist the tech support is...

Re:No big deal

[An Onimous Cow Herd]

Amen!

I have a lot of experience with many of the ranges of HP home and business machines *hint-hint*

Currently the most productive box on my network is a 64mb P200 Vectra running OpenBSD - it serves as router, firewall, SMB server, MP3 streamer and web server - this machine now has as uptime of over 190 days (brought down to add an extra SCSI hard drive and is shoved in a closet. Fantastic hardware quality all round. It has never given me any problems (except for an unsupported AMD Lance NIC - swapped out for a Realtek). This was a surplus machine flogged for $20 from my workplace - best investment i ever made!

As for Pavilions.... *spits*

Re:No big deal

[RussGarrett]

HP...home...machines.....
*shudders*

The number of times I've had problems with HP/Packard Bell home computers still ceases to amaze me. Duff CD drives, faulty memory, dodgy proprietary motherboards, the list goes on and on. There is no way you'd catch me or anyone I know going out and buying an HP. Ever.

Re:No big deal

[The Pi-Guy]

Err, I would. Inexpensive, powerful, and upgradeable. For $900, I get:

CD-RW
DVD
80GB Disk
Athlon XP 1900+ (because AMD is just better)
512MB RAM
10/100 RealTek Linux-Supported NIC
Modem
Sound

As well, it's quiet. I just ordered my recovery CDs yesterday, all I said is I'm planning on changing to Linux, and that I don't wanna wait 3 days PC-less for it to arrive.

Right now, it is happily installing SuSE. My only gripe is the NTFS5 partition - PM6.0 can't resize it so I had to nuke it. Oh well, live and learn.

--joshua

Re:No big deal

[gmhowell]

Good point. Do you get the CD's if you buy Linux pre-installed?

And if so, did they scratch out the 'CheapBytes' logo on them?

Re:No big deal

[The Pi-Guy]

Oop, missed a big feature - it's pretty overclockable, and the MoBo wil tell you from Windows CPUCooL or BIOS what speed the fan's running at, as well as how hot CPU's running, not to mention the actual MoBo voltages (3.3,5.5,12) [which seem to be a little low here...]

--joshua

Re:No big deal

[jacoplane]

Uhhh, HP has nothing to do whatsoever with Packard Bell. Packard bell is a crappy manufacturer of PCs which doesn't even even exist any more (it's run by NEC now). Packard Bell probably started out trying to capitalize on the name Hewlett-Packard and Bell. HP systems are much better than Packard Bell.

Re:No big deal

[estes_grover]

Not sure what the 'current' HP home boxes are like these days...but I got a pavilion 8760c a while back. Had to replace the cruddy winModem and fake sound card with a USR and an SBLive. Added another HD, installed Linux on that; now I can dual boot twixt Linux and 'Doze (for gaming). Not really such a bad box.

Re:No big deal

[RussGarrett]

I always assumed they were the same company... Anyway, in that case, HPs are better but they're still not very good :) I have two here, and they've caused no end of trouble, mainly with the motherboard and sound/network drivers conflicting.

Dell still does this too

[Wells2k]

Unfortunately, checking their website shows that only business machines will have a Linux option; home machines are still WinXP only."

As has been said before, Dell is still offering linux on their machines for business and server applications as well. Both Dell and HP have realized that linux is not quite ready for the home desktop, and quite rightly so.

Re:Dell still does this too

[kiwimate]

Yep! AND...if you want to, you can order a server with no OS installed -- not Windows, not Linux, not anything. So you can do it from scratch and choose your own distro. Mighty good stuff, IMHO.

hp and linux

[yobbo]

Why are they shipping a distro that is nearly 1 year old! Especially considering it's successor has been out for months.

Also, what happened with this rumoured mandrake on hp i've been hearing about? Were't they putting Mandrake as an option on home PC's ?

Re:hp and linux

[Bruce Perens]

Most of our customers install their own loads anyway. But the ones that don't, don't run a leading-edge distro. And yes, there is a contract with Mandrake, and another with Progeny to work on Debian.

Bruce

I would still choose Windows..

[Sarlok]

I get more coffee breaks due to reboots!

Re:I would still choose Windows..

[estoll]

This is a completely irrelavent debate. If you want to discuss this, try going to the microsoft.public.vsnet.general newsgroup and argue with the hundreds of people crediting Microsoft with a buggy version of VS. I have; however, associated the amount of bugs in the final version VS.NET with the amount in beta 2. In my opinion, the most stable release so far was RC1.

It's sad really...

[markph]

The govt has been stepping up ... this is where they should step up. Let the consumer choose the OS they would like.

Don't give me the, they have to because of a license agreement crap. It CAN be done if they choose to. That is why I ALWAYS suggest to a friend to by their computers LOCAL, you can always pick what OS you would like to use.

Only one of the many reasons buying your own custom system from a local vendor makes sense.

Re:It's sad really...

[Random Bystander]

I agree, it is sad.

I also make the same recommendation. When I bought this computer six months ago, it was only because I knew the manager at the store - friend of a friend - that I could get it without an OS.

The total cost for the system was NZD 2100, and the system would have cost NZD 2600 with WinME + XP Upgrade. I was lucky to be able to save that money.

I talked to 3 of the national / international retailers at the time, and their deals were terrible - and none of them allowed sales of non-Windows operating systems, or for the machine to come with no OS installed.

slack

[gurensan]

Well, it's nice they're taking up a little slack, but have they fixed all that proprietary hardware crap they used to use? If they haven't, then maybe it's Linux that's improved.

LHr

[xtype]

What about the HP LHr series, intel based, servers? They have been shipping with RedHat Linux for years.
Sure they are "servers" but they make a decent SMP workstation too with a Matrox G400 MAX installed.
It is not a very big step for HP, packing Linux on the workstations.
Not in my opinion.

Fry's

[Dionysus]

Local Fry's (San Jose, CA) is selling PCs with Linux preinstalled. If you want WinXP, you need to pay extra.

Re:Fry's

[Chagatai]

Yes, but this is Fry's Electronics we are talking about here. You may get Linux pre-installed on your system, but you also have to deal with scratched-up Taiwanese RAM, repackaged returned equipment, and salespeople who would just as soon file Linux under "Games". Support your local PC company instead.

Re:Fry's

[magicslax]

Ditto in San Diego. It's a cellery 733, 20bg, 128 pc100 for $299, with Linux mentioned prominently.

Re:Fry's

[I. M. Bur]

Here in the Czech Republic, one company chose to not pay anything to Microsoft. They used Linux and they did not even offer a Windows box. After about three months, Microsoft accused them of selling PCs with pirated OS, a group of cops came and confiscated everything in their HQ. It is almost a year ago, but from what I have read, the company still didn't get their stuff back and they have serious trouble doing bussiness. Free market indeed...

love or hate?

[geekoid]

first I want to hate them for this
but now they go and start ptting linux on there machines. What a person to do???

Testing...

[cnelzie]

The reason that they are shipping a year old system is that that is what they tested with. They confirmed that their hardware will all function fine under that version of Linux. They must have fully tested and configured all aspects of the machine to be confident that what they are selling will work with the minimal amount of fuss.

Since they may have spent six months or more testing, tweaking and then retesting, that is what they will ship. The testing cycle of any new product takes time and care. Simply slapping it together and seeing that is "mostly" works is just not good enough to put your name on something.

HP is probably beginning to test or are nearing completion of testing Red Hat 7.2 on their systems. In another 6 months or so, they will probably have those systems ready to ship.

That is the way that business operates. You will understand when, or if, you get into a position with a company that is looking at updating systems. Knowing that something "works" is not the same as knowing that it works by testing the heck out of it.

--
.sig seperator
--

Re:Testing...

[yobbo]

Based on that logic, they shouldn't have ever released a machine with Windows.

Definitely not new

[red_dragon]

HP has been selling Linux workstations for a long time now. Their first ones were the Visualize xl and pl, and came with RedHat 6.something preinstalled. Only now they have been replaced with the x**00 series; some more information about them is available here.

Re:Definitely not new

[red_dragon]

I should also note, the old Visualize Linux workstations were optionally offered with the insanely cool fx5 and fx10 video cards, which were equipped with 3 and 6 PA-RISC geometry engines respectively (foggy memory of mine, though; correct me if i'm wrong). These cards are not listed as available options for the new models, though, perhaps because HP had to provide a separate X server and kernel module for those cards.

More info on the cards can be found here.

The uptake of Linux is stunning

[pubjames]

We keep seein these articles with titles like is linux ready for the desktop?, is linux good enough for business, etc. I think these tend to blind us to the fact that the update of Linux has been nothing short of stunning.

Remember, just four years ago sys admins had to hide their Linux systems so the boss wouldn't find out about them. And now, IBM, HP, Compaq, Sun and other heavy hitters of the IT industry are increasingly basing their strategies around it. And we all know that Sun didn't even really want to, they were forced to by changes in the market. That demonstrates the power of the change that is taking place.

I had a go at using Linux in 1998. From many perspectives, it was, frankly, crap. Look where we are today, less than four years later.

People always assume that everything happens really quickly in the IT industry, but it isn't so. Things take time. Decades sometimes. The amount of mindshare that Linux has got in the last four years is just fantastic. The revolution is happening, and it's happening quickly.

People say that Linux can never compete on the desktop. I'm not so sure. At the moment it's grabbing bites out of virtually every other niche market in a way that Bill Gates must have dreamt about doing in the past. Now it must be giving him nightmares.

I can't wait to see what's going to happen in the next four years.

Re:The uptake of Linux is stunning

[SilentChris]

Insightful? No.

Interesting? Maybe.

Catering to the whims of the Slashdot crowd: precisely.

Re:The uptake of Linux is stunning

[my_second_fish]

Hey maybe if things go well, we can look forward to seeing a Red Hat Intellimouse, or a Mandrake Natural Keyboard.. or some other distribution branded hardware item.

The fact is, a lot of companies are loyal to their current architecture. I worked for a company that designed and built the casings for Sun Microsystems. Did our engineers switch to linux? No. Did they even have 1 linux machine in the office to handle the material that Sun sent us (note: not in any Windows format).. no. We got StarOffice for Windows. Linux was an absolute last ditch effort for the IT dept I worked in.

Its mindsets like that, as well as commercialization in some form, that will take Linux to the desktop and really pose as a significant threat to the Windows world. That, and hardware vendor support of the operating system.

If I was an IT Manager, faced with the decision of buying 1000 MS licenses, or distributing RedHat (or something) across the same number of PCs for the cost of maybe 10 CDRs, I'd still more than likely use MS, simply because I know, that despite all the variant hardware in those machines, somewhere I can find a driver for it. Linux.. I gotta -pray- that either the vendor made one, or someone else hacked out the ability to use it.

Maybe in 7-8 years, as Linux stays on top of things, and as vendors see the market grow, we'll have Linux on the desktop, but as it stands.. there is no way in hell its gonna happen in 4.

The vendor support isnt there. The end-user knowledge isnt there. And there is way too much legacy hardware that hasn't adequately been supported.

fish

Re:The uptake of Linux is stunning

[Anonymous Coward]

hmmm.

Until being absorb^H^H^H^H^H^Hbought by Sun, I worked for company doing development exclusively for Solaris. I can asure you that other than core
development and salesturds laptops everything ran
linux.

Re:The uptake of Linux is stunning

[hendridm]

> Catering to the whims of the Slashdot crowd: precisely.

Even if it was karma whoring, he does have a valid point about Linux going from a naughty secret to being embraced by industry titans in the last 4 years. That is significant.

Mandrake option?

[Marx_Mrvelous]

On a business PC, I see a "OpenOS with Mandrake CD option" but no Redhat option.
xe310-s2 system.

Build your own!

[Cirrocco]

Ever since I bought my first PC and discovered the Joy of Customization I've been an advocate of building your own PC. Most of the PCs I've seen have always been lacking in something that could be bigger or better, usually in HD size or RAM amounts. 128 of RAM is okay, but at today's prices why not more?

It may cost just a little bit more to build your own and there are some who don't have the know-how to do it, granted. And for the Slashdot community at large this doesn't apply, myself included. I try to help my friends build their own if I'm able and most of them seem to want Windows, so I give up.

Build your own. Get blank HDs and install 7.2, or Mandrake, or Debian, or whatever. Don't pay the M$ OR the HP tax.

Re:Build your own!

[Fishstick]

Sure, for a home user it doesn't make sense to to do anything but build your own. It's not that hard (hell, if *I* can figure it out ;-) ).

But for a company looking to buy >100 + support? You don't have the time+money to build the machines. You pay someone else to do that.

This is (another) step in the right direction!

Re:Build your own!

[kiwimate]

Yes, but I want to have the freedom to choose how I want to obtain my PC-and-OS. If I want to buy a fully-built PC with a preinstalled OS, no problem. If I want to buy the components and build it from scratch, no big deal as I have the necessary know-how.

But I don't. I don't want to pay for the OS; I'd rather install MY operating system MY way. If that means Win 2K, then fine, I'll go out and buy a copy off the shelf. If that means SuSE or RedHat, fine, I can download it or buy it off the shelf. But I usually don't want to build the PC; I've been doing it for the last ten years, so I don't need the practise, and at this point I'm just as happy to buy the lowest-end desktop I can find and use it for bopping around, checking out different distros, that sort of thing. I'd rather spend the time loading software and experimenting with whatever-it-is I'm currently investigating. (Okay, breaking whatever-it-is I'm currently investigating, if you want to be pedantic.)

But I can't. Anyone see the problem here? I can buy everything as separate components and put it all together, or get the full package including OS from Dell or HP, but I can't get the in-between service that I want. Maybe it's just me (although at least one or two of the posts here make me think not), but I want the in-between service. I want to be able to buy a ready-built PC from Dell (or whomever) with a blank HDD and then choose what I want to do with it.

By the way, I sent in three e-mails at the beginning of this year to Dell customer service asking precisely how they could assist me with this request (i.e. to be able to buy a PC without an OS). Yep, I'm still waiting to hear back from them -- not even an acknowledgement of receipt thus far. Customer service? What customer service?

Re:Build your own!

[Cirrocco]

That isn't what I was saying. What I mean here is that I'll let someone buy a pre-packaged system if they want Windows. I should have clarified that.

Re:Build your own!

[SpaceLifeForm]

I'd rather spend the time loading software and experimenting with whatever-it-is I'm currently investigating. (Okay, breaking whatever-it-is I'm currently investigating, if you want to be pedantic.)

At least with Linux, if you break it, and then fix it, you did learn something.
Compare to Windows, you may break it, but you may not really know how you broke it,
quite often because it wasn't really your fault,
and the fix then is to re-install, which means you learn nothing.

Yes

[4of12]

Our organization is looking at these closely as an possible replacement for Sun machines on the desktop. Running Linux on Intel hardware is very compelling from a price/performance perspective.

The Good Thing® about HP supporting these is the assurance of the big name. Linux may be ready for the enterprise, but no one wants to be the pioneer, anymore than anyone wants to be the pioneer for WinXP in the corporate environement. Conservatism rules.

In corporate IT support, you'd get real nervous rolling out brand X hardware and a Linux distribution whose track record of worthiness is only proven on the desktops of individual expert hackers. When hundreds of newbies pound the keyboards, you want to be reassured and know what to expect to face in terms of support issues.

Enterprise-wide experience coming from a large company like HP (it could just as well have been IBM or Sun) is precisely helpful in this regard. The slightly outdated distribution is actually an encouraging sign that a lengthy test period has gone into the whole setup.

Re:Yes

[pmz]

Our organization is looking at these closely as an possible replacement for Sun machines on the desktop. Running Linux on Intel hardware is very compelling from a price/performance perspective.


Be wary, though. Going from a Sun workstation to an HP PC is sort of like trading in a BMW for a Chevy Cavalier. Don't be suprised when those "up-front savings" dissappear when your support staff doubles and overall productivity drops due to flaky hardware.

Brand-name UNIX workstations may look expensive up front, but my experience is that they wear like iron and take outright (computational) abuse. My experience with choice-component PCs has been bland at best. PC components--even good ones--just seem to fail more frequently.

Re:Yes

[shaka999]

Our organization is just starting to replace our Sun's with Linux boxes. Contrary to what this article says DELL still ships XEON workstations with Linux pre-installed. This is the route we are taking.

One thing though, we ARE NOT USING LINUX ON THE DESKTOP. From our testing they make great compute farm boxes but aren't ready for the desktop.

HP Laptops

[SoftwareJedi]

I will be a trully happy man when HP can give tech support to those of us who insist on putting Linux on their Laptops.

Re:HP Laptops

[essdodson]

Why should an OEM support a third party package? If I install netbus on my machine and it gets screwed is that HP's problem to troubleshoot?

Red Hat no good at home anyway.

[abigor]

HP is doing the right thing. What I'd like to see, though, is a major hardware vendor bundling Mandrake 8.2 (when it's out). It will probably conform to the LSB more than any other distro, thus making it friendlier to 3rd party apps (if and when they start appearing). Mandrake has excellent config, a unified appearance, and urpmi is almost as nice as apt. So if HP or Dell or whomever want to sell home systems, they shouldn't bother with Red Hat anyway, and go with Mandrake.

Automount

[October_30th]

Which keeps "page lengthening" my log with crap about failed mounts on a SCSI CD-RW drive with an audio disc?

No thanks.

I'm a home user...

[Marx_Mrvelous]

And i'd like to order Linux. I very much doubt that there'd be too many people accidentally choosing the Linux option.

If anythimg it'll lower the cost of their machines as they get out from the Microsoft tax, making them better options for us system builders.

Re:I'm a home user...

[Otter]

I very much doubt that there'd be too many people accidentally choosing the Linux option.

IMHO, what Linux really doesn't need is to be a $30 cheaper option in build-to-order lists.

There's always complaining that Linux costs more, at least not less, than the same box with Windows. Leaving aside why that is (mostly far higher support costs, I'd guess), can you imagine what would happen if Linux boxes started winding up in the hands of users who knew nothing about it other than that they could save a few dollars by getting it?

Re:I'm a home user...

[Fjord]

We are talking about bundling a preloaded RedHat on here. It wouldn't necessarily be less cost, and they would have a company to call and say X doesn't work/

Re:I'm a home user...

[SurfsUp]

can you imagine what would happen if Linux boxes started winding up in the hands of users who knew nothing about it other than that they could save a few dollars by getting it?

Yep, they'd learn something, scary thought isn't it?

Oh, and exactly how much to you have to know to use a Mandrake box with KDE and Staroffice, automagic printer setup, etc?

Bollocks

[Penrod Pooch]

Name one thing X can't do that Windows can.

Re:Bollocks

[tp9674]

BSOD?

Re:Bollocks

[Penrod Pooch]

X has done this for me properly everytime I tried for at least 2 years now. You have to type a command to do it instead of automatic detection at boot, but I consider that a feature.

Re:Bollocks

[Warped-Reality]

Play Diablo II?

Re:Crap... This is will likely be modded as flameb

[einer]

I appreciate the mod and all ;) but I'm really fishing for an answer to the question... 7.2 is fairly well tested and fixes numerous flaws in 7.1... What gives here?

Re:Crap... This is will likely be modded as flameb

[geekoid]

because they need to evalute each version against there systems.

unlikely

[hawk]

When I've seen price differences in the past, linux was usually *more*--I'm guessing that the support costs are higher (including training people to support, etc.).

Linux was available on this laptop, but it was kind of silly to take that version for an extra few bucks, especially since we planned on freebsd anyway . . .

hawk

Re:unlikely

[weave]

Linux is most likely more because irregardless of whether you install Windows or not on a box, the OEM has to pay for that Windows license anyway...

Another reason to go with IBM

[tollieman]

Looks like IBM is still way ahead as far as offering Linux solutions

non-redhat?

[asv108]

Just out of curiosity, are there any major manufactures who will install non-redhat distros?

Re:non-redhat?

[kiwimate]

Yep. IBM has alliances with Caldera, SuSE, and TurboLinux.

This is the way to do it

[da_Den_man]

You want to integrate the robustness (is this a word) of Linux in a Corporate environment FIRST. This way, when the people who are running these systems go home at the end of the day, and have to use Windows on their home PC, they will wonder why.

Microsoft dominates the Home User due to the fact that it is what people most run AT WORK. If the foothold takes, and Linux actually gets more than "Geek" approval, it will be a major step towards eliminating the Microsoft dominated users.

It will require applications, and with home access via Broadband, people will also want to use the same applications. this could start a trend towards "If it isn't available, I will create it" similar to what happened under Windows. the development tools are already there. Linux just needs to be a presence and illustrate its effectiveness in daily Business Use.

It would be great if DELL and COMPAQ would get back on the bandwagon, but sometimes you take what you can get.

I Should Know....

[questforme]

I work for a contractor for HP(we handle their mid-range computers(NT, Linux, and Unix) for Trade Show and Software Developer rentals) and we've had Linux offered for a while now but it's appearant that it wasn't well advertised to the general public. We can load it on the X1100, X2100, and X4000. I don't deal with the consumer level PC's so I don't know about that. Interesting note though HP(90% sure of this) is moving away from Redhat to Debian, couldn't reach agreement on new contract with Redhat.

Re:I Should Know....

[questforme]

They'll probably make a customized HP version for the Workstations they're sold on, as far as tech support I don't know. I don't think they would be using Redhat but would they be providing it themselves??

Not on for home users

[halftrack]

This is no loss.
1. Home users have time to build and install their own systems.
2. Regular Linux users never buy prebuilt computers.
3. People interesting in learning Linux are also plausible to build their own system.
4. Joe Ordinary considering Linux will also consider having his friend - Joe Geek - build and set up a Linux box as his desktop machine.

In otherwords, people considering Linux don't turn to HP.

A little digression: how would Joe Ordinary react if his new PC didn't come with Windows, but with Linux? He just ordered a PC assuming it ran Windows.

Re:Not on for home users

[geekoid]

you're point are valid, but if we want Linux to get more "brand awareness" it needs to get in fornt of more average users.
I think it would be great if Joe Ordinary didn't have to call Joe Geek to use Linux.
I also no a few Linux users that have bought low end cheepo machines. Linux can give them the usefullnes Windows can not.

maybe they're doing this because...

[gl4ss]

.. they dont want to tell business companies: "well yeah, this MS-solution is buggy, and it costs$$$ in consultation every month.. in fact we dont even use it. but it's the solution you want so we're selling it to you as an only option"

My great idea.

[nenolod]

Wait. HP should offer a no OS option on all of their systems. Their machines are pretty standard stuff. You could probably install any linux distro, and anyway -- RH (in my own opinion) is kind of a poor distro. Mandrake and Debian are more robust. But, it is at least good that they are offering an alternative, but dont be suprised when MS files a lawsuit against them.

Besides

[zpengo]

Besides, would you really want some company installing and configuring Linux for you?

I for one, have gotten so far into the "Buy computer, reformat computer" mindset that it would be hard for me to accept a prefab computer even if it *did* have my obscure operating system of choice.

Re:Besides

[shadow303]

But everytime that you buy a computer with Windows installed, that means more money going to Microsoft. Why should thay be making money off a license which isn't going to be used?

Re:Crap... This is will likely be modded as flameb

[Bruce Perens]

Most of our customers install their own loads anyway. Especially the bigger ones, they all seem to have built their own install CDs with their own feature set.

Bruce

I'm typing on one of these machines now

[Thagg]

HP was gracious enough to loan me one of these machines for a couple of weeks; so that I could write a review of it. I've only had it for a day, but it appears to be everything that one could ask for in a Linux graphics workstation. It's incredibly fast, has unbelieveable graphics, and has a customized RedHat configuration that just works.

HP has seen the light, too, and is running XFree86 instead of the custom Xserver inherited from their HPUX platforms. Their first Linux boxes, released about a year ago, weren't running XFree, IIRC.

More to follow, of course. One line summary -- The machines are real, and they rock.

thad

Re:I'm typing on one of these machines now

[Scoria]

I'll vouch for you, AC. I own a Pavilion notebook; its graphics accelerator sucks. However, I also own an Omnibook 6100. 70 fps in Q3.

Thank you. :p

not any more

[hawk]

There used to be licenses like that, but not any more. However, there *are* licenses like thatthat apply to an entire line made by a manufacturor.

hawk

You Worry Too Much.

[professorpoole]

I'm a life-long MS prisoner who recently made the transition to Linux. I had tried it a couple of years ago; when it started asking all sorts of geek questions about refresh rates and things like that, I figured, "not worth the bother."

(Not that I couldn't have found the info -- I'm a tech-type/engineering dood, after all -- but I just didn't have the time. If it's not in the user manual for the hardware, I'm not going to search for it.)

In December, I purchased Mandrake 8.1 and was blown away. It's actually *easier* to install than Windows was. Yes, the desktop has its irritations -- for example, because of my eyes, I can't go higher than 800x600, and some of the windows in KDE are "fixed" at higher resolution, so part of the window runs off the screen -- but I am having a blast.

My point, of course, is that zillions of people like me are discovering Linux for the first time. We are enjoying it very much. Like one poster says here, rather than being upset that Linux is taking two steps f'wards and one step b'wards, be glad of the fact that it's making inroads. Plus, you DON'T want it to be released to the unwashed masses until it's completely ready.

(My own experience a couple of years ago almost soured me to Linux, but a fellow engineer encouraged me to try the latest distros. I'm glad I did.)

The only reason I keep Windows in a dual boot was so that I could run Turbo Tax and a few games. But everything else is done in Linux now. I also expect this problem to go away in the future. I'm committed.

Patience, folks. Linux is getting there. Rather than worrying about a minor setback today, be confident of where Linux will be in a year or two.

Even YOU might be surprised. :)

Confusion... it's Mandrake Linux.

[joestar]

I'm pretty sure HP ships Mandrake, not Red Hat:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-826283.html

"HP to support Mandrake Linux on desktops
By Matthew Broersma
ZDNet (UK)
January 30, 2002, 11:00 AM PT

France's MandrakeSoft has teamed up with Hewlett-Packard in the open source camp's latest foray into the desktop PC market. The agreement, announced on Tuesday ahead of the LinuxWorld Expo, will see HP build and promote Mandrake Linux-based desktop PCs for European and North American businesses.

Linux is based on an open source license that prevents any one company from owning the software, and competes against Microsoft's dominant Windows operating system, which is kept under tight proprietary control. So far, however, Linux has mainly succeeded in the server market, where ease-of-use is less important than reliability and performance.

The HP deal aims to address some of the problems that have prevented desktop users from adopting Linux, such as the lack of technical support.

Mandrake Linux will be certified on all of HP's business PCs, and will be offered in a premium package that includes telephone, on-site and remote support. MandrakeSoft is to provide technical support for HP's teams, according to the companies. The PCs will also be available without support.

"This alliance is a testament to HP's strong commitment in Linux market," said Eric Rueda, software marketing manager of HP Business Desktops division, in a statement.

Other companies have tried selling Linux on desktops in the past. Dell stopped offering Red Hat Linux on its desktop and notebook PCs last autumn, citing lack of demand, but says there is more potential for the software on servers and workstations."

Re:Confusion... it's Mandrake Linux.

[rutledjw]

The X1000 has RH 7.1. Not to say that there may not be Mandrake machines as well or that Mandrake may be providing tech support (since Mandrake is based on RH).

Re:Confusion... it's Mandrake Linux.

[fcrozat]

False.

Mandrake Linux was based on Redhat 3 years ago.
It is no longer the case since Mdk 6.0 (if I remember correctly..)

Re:Confusion... it's Mandrake Linux.

[joestar]

You are right, it was in may/june 1999. Actually only Mandrake 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 were based on Red Hat. Mandrakes 6.0, 6.1, 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 8.0, 8.1 weren't and I would be surprised if the coming Mandrake 8.2 was based on RH! :-)

huh?

[Sj0]

Why are they using RedHat 7.1? 7.2 is much better. It supports ext3(which irradicates the one problem I had with linux -- file systems could get hurt far too easily by a power failure) and the second-newest KDE(which is a fairly significant step in the right direction regarding eye-candy from the KDE in 7.1)

Sometimes I wonder about these companies............

Think Back...

[quantaman]

Unfortunately, checking their website shows that only business machines will have a Linux option; home machines are still WinXP only."

And they'll likely stay that way, remember back a while on /., this story (I sure I remember a more recent and more applicable one shortly after the death of BeOs but I couldn't find it anywhere. Either way HP does not have the option of selling a duel boot machine with linux and windows due to their agreement with M$. Acorrdingly the only way to sell a home machine with linux is to sell it with only linux. I suspect that most users who are good enough to use only linux will probably build their own machines in the first place.

Linux desktops?

[blazer1024]

Everybody I know that runs Linux at home (and I know quite a few, myself included), had a home built computer. (i.e. they bought the individual components and put them all together themselves) I always do that for my home computers.. not so much to save money anymore (though sometimes you can save a few bucks over a name brand box), but I like to have direct control over everything, and be able to open up the box and upgrade or replace any peice of hardware without worrying about voiding the warranty.

How many linux guys (or girls) buy name brand desktop systems? (Laptops are a different story)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

I'm glad no personal boxes with Linux

[ttfkam]

...cause Linux ain't personal yet. Microsoft already has a monopoly on the desktop; it's not like Linux will be losing marketshare.

With that in mind, it's probably better that Joe Sixpack doesn't get exposed to Linux at this point. Right now, it is likely that he will be turned off to it and hate it. When replaced with WinXP, Linux on the desktop, from a newbie point of view, will look horrible from a usability point of view.

Better to wait until it actually is easy to use without looking at half a dozen HOWTOs before unleashing on the masses.

For example: how does one install a new program on RedHat? Assuming it's an RPM, the user opens a command prompt and *bzzzt!* Linux just lost. On Debian, assuming you have a deb file, the user opens a command prompt and *bzzzt!* Linux just lost again. Are there GUIs for this? Sure. Are they sufficiently easy to use for a newbie (Are they easily accessible from the system menu or an icon)? Not yet.

Sure there's apt and Red Carpet, but those are for specific channels -- mainly Ximian and RedHat. The vast majority of Windows users use programs that are not in the standard Windows install. As such, installing programs on Linux that are not part of a standard distribution seems logical to me and necessary.

Browse to software site and download (or insert CD), double-click on file, and have it installed and ready to run without ever opening a command prompt or needed to read a manual or a HOWTO. You want Joe Sixpack who doesn't "get" computers and has no desire to "get" computers? This is the entrance fee.

After all, how many of you drive a car, but don't know how an engine works (or even what kind of airbag it has)? Knowing how it works should not be a prerequisite to using it.

Re:I'm glad no personal boxes with Linux

[Rascalson]

heheh. Red Carpet == Ximian but apt != Red Hat. But I'm sure that is a typo on your part cause you are a regular Linux user, and not some paid astrotrufer who just happens to read this mesage board a lot as part of their job, right?

Re:I'm glad no personal boxes with Linux

[ttfkam]

I meant Ximian and RedHat with regard to Red Carpet. Yes, I'm well aware that apt was (originally) a Debian animal.

Read this message board as part of my job? Only if you consider me trying to get people to standardize so that my job becomes easier because I don't need to learn config file formats in a 1:1 ratio to the programs I use. If that's what you mean, then yes, I posted for my job.

Is someone paying me to browse these boards? Of course not. Most sane employers have better things to do with their money.

Re:I'm glad no personal boxes with Linux

[ttfkam]

I stand corrected. I haven't tried Mandrake since I got burned by v6.1.

However, compare it to WinXP and not Win98. Comparing to Win98 is like saying Mandrake 8.1 is better than RedHat 4.2. While accurate, it's hardly fair.

Note: I don't use WinXP either. The whole licensing issues surrounding that OS scare the shit out of me.

At least some HP linux machines are poor values

[bigbadbibbly]

Look at these links:

http://www.hp.com/workstations/products/linux/x100 0/summary.html

http://www.bstore.hp.com/cgi-bin/hpbs/specshtml.js p?BV_SessionID=@@@@0447546065.1014057243@@@@&BV_En gineID=efadcdgdeeejebengckcfijdii.0&oid=44745

The first is an "HP workstation X1000" and the second is an "HP workstation X1000" The only difference is that the first runs Linux, has half the RAM, and costs $100 more! What a rip!

Re:At least some HP linux machines are poor values

[rutledjw]

The second link doesn't work, instead

• go to www.bstore.hp.com
• do a search on x1000
• scroll down to the first computer (for some reason, the first few matches are accessories) and click on it

Actually, the amount of ram is the same, but the Linux machine is ~$50 more expensive. Looks like the MS-tax is still in place.

Re:Another HP system...

[nowt]

modded offtopic.. typical. No one probably bothered to click the link.

The point is this handheld will soon be shipping linux. They are actively building support for it right now. Hence the link to the linux status page.

HP-UX

[NitsujTPU]

Yup, but I'm not sure that it's such a great deal since the reason for this is them dropping HP-UX.

Everybody repeat with me, there's 1 less version of Unix out there...

Of course, the linux version costs more...

[big.ears]

I don't know if they are going to convince themselves that selling linux is a good idea. From here:

The hp workstation x1000 with Intel® Pentium® 4 processor running at 1.7GHz. This minitower configuration includes Windows 2000 Professional®, 20GB IDE Hard Drive, 128MB SDRAM, 48X CD-ROM, Matrox G450 graphics plus keyboard, mouse, power cord and recovery media.

$1,166.00

and from :here:

hp workstations x1000 - Linux
Red Hat Linux 7.1, Intel Pentium 4 processor at 1.7GHz, 20GB IDE HDD, Matrox G450, 128MB SDRAM, 48X CD, power cord, media and manuals.:

$1,211

I think I'll get the windows version and install debian myself.

Re:Of course, the linux version costs more...

[Uttles]

Maybe those manuals are just REAL expensive.

Also, there are certain pieces of hardware that just don't work with linux yet (HPNA for one), so maybe HP had to use more expensive chips or something in the linux version.

Re:Of course, the linux version costs more...

[NorthStar4]

Well, I assume HP will build some amount into the costs of these units to cover phone support costs.
I would also assume that the cost of supporting a (non-technical) Windows user vs a (non-technical) Linux user would favour the Windows user. HP seems to think this difference is worth more than the cost of the Windows licence (assuming the hardware is identical). Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, but they've decided it is.
If you bought the Windows version, then installed Linux, I doubt you would get any phone support (though as a Slashdot reader I doubt you will need it!)

Re:In full agreement.

[Hammer]

Funny, I installed a new box with various obscure H/W that needs a stack of diskettes if I were to install Winblows. I was not too confident. But, guess what, I popped in my Mandrake 8.1, selected the parts I wanted installed and off it went and installed everything. Everything works, including better graphics resolution than they promised with Winblows.

My wife just runs it without problems, she only cares if it can read email and surf.

Prepaid MS Tax

[_Sprocket_]

If anythimg it'll lower the cost of their machines as they get out from the Microsoft tax, making them better options for us system builders.

You haven't been paying much attention to OEM licensing discussions, have you? Linux Refund Day provided a great object lesson. The per-unit price for Windows is negligible. And that price is already paid whether your unit ships with Windows or not. To avoid the "Microsoft tax", OEMs will have to abandon Windows. And as much as I would like to see OEMs have that option, right now they don't.

Is it just me or...

[bofh69]

When I saw "HP's picking up the slack" I expected HP to be preinstalling Slackware?

Re:I'm typing on - But...

[rutledjw]

Is better than a "roll your own" machine? Isn't that the real issue? It seems like RH and Mandrake take quite a beating for bloat and when I do installs I find myself peeling junk off I don't want &| need.

Heck as a two-year Linux "veteran" ( Yes, I hear that bunch of you laughing, now keep quiet! ;) ) I think I would have a hard time with a standard load from another company. I've gone from RH to Mandrake and now am using Slack as my Linux machine. It would be hard for me to get away from the "roll-your own" mentality...

I suppose the point is that I would have much use for such a machine except that the MS-tax would be absent. I'm not knocking HP, I think they make very nice machines and I applaud their actions.

Is there anything about this particular machine which sets it apart from other Linux loads?

the important question?

[torqer]

Will they automatically create restore partition ?

Re:we just need one more year.

[filmcritic]

BeOS did it in 2. Apple took BSD core services and rewrote gobs of stuff in relatively no time.

I'll tell you why....NO centralized authority like management to keep things moving. No authority at the top = nothing gets finished properly.

Not ready for the desktop?

[black88]

For two days thus far I have been running a nice little distro called Lycoris Desktop/LX, fka Redmond Linux. I have had little need to boot into 98, save for the time when I need to use Cubase, and even then, it was frustrating. On the other hand, It's been pretty smooth sailing here in Linux. The setup and install was flawless and took about 20 minutes, and sound and video work right out of the box. Bottom line: I am not a dummy when it comes to OS crap. I know better than to log in as root to surf the web looking for naughty video, yet on the other hand I am not some Kernel kacker that has been at it for a number of years. Linux IS ready for the Desktop, just try Desktop/LX. http://www.lycoris.com ps please don't blame me for their choice of color scheme!

By Linux on HP desktops, avoid the Windows Tax

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone at the HP booth showed me how at
the Linux World exhibition. Go to
http://bstore.hp.com/ click on Business desktops,
select the 'e-pc 40', and choose customize.
You will have the ability to select Linux (mandrake) and when you do, you will get a
discount of $90.

This is the way it should be. As far as I know, no
other manufacturer has discount from the Windows
tax even if you buy Linux. And for a "business PC",the e-PC models are downright cool - they
are sexy enough and quiet enough to make a nice
home-pc too (much better than the bigger, bulkier
HP consumer PC's).

Thanks, HP for giving us the freedom from the
Windows tax (and while we are expressing
gratitude, thanks for open-sourcing your printer
drivers too - my deskjet kicks ass on Linux
now!)

Pricing (at least on workstations) is insane...

[fluffhead]

I know that assembling this stuff on your own, you could probably cut the cost at least in half. Look at this quote sheet from hp.com:

A7796A HP workstation X1000 Base SPU with Linux 1 $650.00
A7796A ABA U.S. - English localization 1 $0.00
A7801A 2.0GHz Pentium 4 Processor (478 pin) 1 $750.00
A7801A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A6065A NVIDIA Quadro2 Pro graphics accelerator 1 $700.00
A6065A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A7243A 3 button PS2 mouse (no scroll) 1 $10.00
A7243A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A6060A 36GB 10K SCSI disk for IA32 systems 1 $550.00
A6060A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A7244A SCSI controller card Ultra 160 (PCI) 1 $130.00
A7244A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A7794A 256MB PC133 ECC SDRAM DIMM for X1000 2 $120.00 $240.00
A7794A 0D1 Factory integrated 2 $0.00
A7808A HP 16X max DVD ROM Drive 1 $150.00
A7808A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
A7807A HP 16X max CD R/W ROM drive 1 $200.00
A7807A 0D1 Factory integrated 1 $0.00
H4396A No Additional Support 1 $0.00

subtotal $3,380.00

The real question is..

[my_second_fish]

On the linux partitions, are they still doing the same crap that they opted to do for XP? Do we not get "recovery" or OS disks, but instead just get a nifty other partition wasting disk space, so they don't have to bother pressing a few more cds?

granted, being shipped with 7.1, i would assume most linux using buyers would be going out and getting their preferred distribution (and the most current one) to use instead..

This Happened At Our Department

[hotsauce]

We bought a couple of PowerEdges, and had to get them with Windows even though we wiped the drives and installed Red Hat. The Red Hat version was much more expensive, because they forced you to buy an expensive support agreement (which we did not need) and no refund for Windows because if we wanted Linux why didn't we buy the Linux version? Of course now Dell can show bad sales for Linux boxes which makes the conspiracy theorists at our department wonder...

CD's?

[PenguinX]

Unlike XP - do you suppose that you actually get the Linux CD's instead of a recovery partition? ;-)

Re:get windows for dummies then ;)

[SonicBurst]

I'll second that. I have Win2k a Gateway E-3400 at work for about a year now that has crashed once and only once, and that was due to faulty hardware.

That said, I also have Mandrake 8.1 on the same machine, and that hasn't ever crashed. X has zonked out on it a few times, but never the whole OS.

MMORPG's

[Bonker]

EQ
DOAC
UO
AO

I'd continue with the acronyms, but I'm risking invoking the lameness filter.

Same with Windows

[cnelzie]

They do the same thing with Windows. Of course, they are unable to help it if a machine gets hosed by adding and removing a few applications.

Whenever they release a new piece of hardware, whether it is the latest and greatest CPU or some other whiz-bang technology this is what they do. Of course, when it comes to launching a new CPU design, they get ahold of reference designs and final run chips several months before they are even announced to the public, as existing, by Intel or AMD.

For instance HP and many of the other major OEMs may already have 2.5 or faster CPUs from Intel in either reference, or final run chips. They have to test those, otherwise they will end up with all sorts of headaches as they rush poorly tested product out to the field.

It is the same way with the smaller OEMs, the only major difference is there is little advance handling of CPUs that are getting ready to hit the market.

--
.sig seperator
--

It's no different....

[Danse]

MS simply replaced "per-processor" licenses with "per-model" licenses. They still have the same stranglehold over OEMs though, so if the OEMs get uppity and try to sell a separate model of PCs with no OS, Microsoft can give them the back-of-the-hand treatment and raise their Windows license costs.

The Defacto RedHat 'Standard'

[Lawrence_Bird]

What troubles me is that the box makers are essentially pushing RedHat to be a defacto standard, essentially synonymous with Linux, which it is not. Regardless of how high your regard for RH, there are other distros (key word there!) that are also excellent, including some that might be better suited for a particular environment.

That said, I think it would be better for them to sell the box empty, give you a choice of getting XP,2K,RH,Suse,Debian,Slack,BSD,etc install disks, and further, paying an additional (nominal) fee to have said OS pre-installed. At the least, offer the other distros, and maybe only offer the preinstall option for what they feel are 'prefered' OS's.

No real discount

[HardCase]

So what I'd really like to see is the ability to buy an absolutely clean system from a major vendor at a significant discount (i.e. no MS tax).

Alas, it won't be so. The so called Microsoft Tax amounts to about $100. I was a technical support supervisor for one of the major PC manufacturers, so I had some involvment in cost analysis of the PC's we sold. Our licensing costs on the OS was between $35 and $45 (depending on the version) and Office ran about $45. Why so cheap? Obviously volume plays a significant role, but also Microsoft had no involvment in the manufacturing of the media. We received a "master" set of discs that were in turn shipped to our manufacturer who then made the media that we shipped. Microsoft incurred no costs outside of development.

Another reason that you probably won't see "clean" systems is that most computer manufacturers are seeking to reduce the number of configurations available in order to reduce the cost of building the systems. Before I left my job in the PC manufacturing industry, my company had an exraordinarily broad catalog with substantial overlap between home and business systems, as well as a number of configurations that were rarely selected. That variety costs money...and also leads to mistakes, such as an overly ambitious salesperson who happily bundles a DVD drive, CD drive and CD-RW drive into a desktop system that has two 5.25" bays. But I digress...

The number of systems that customers would order blank is vanishingly small as a percentage of total sales. My company would do it, but only for their "key" customers, organizations that ordered systems by the hundreds. Otherwise, it just wasn't worth it, particularly with the razor-thin margins in the business.

I guess one way of looking at it is that because of the rapacious competition in the industry we're paying extraordinarily low prices for computers today. Sure, the extra $80-$90 that you pay for the OS and application software seems unfair, but on the other hand, the total system price is, quite frankly, a bargain, even with the inclusion of the unwanted OS.

My suggestion (and I'm sure there's no shortage of those similar to it) is that if you want a system with a clean drive, you should build it yourself.

-h-

Re:No real discount

[Malcontent]

That $80 or $90 represents about 10% of a systems cost these days. I'd say that was significant.

Your .sig

[MAXOMENOS]

Never trust a programmer who doesn't have facial hair.

Even if she writes fully-featured compilers in her spare time?

Re:Your .sig

[MAXOMENOS]

even then, because the female programmer will have more social time than the male programmer. To follow that, the male programmer with facial hair will probably be even further into their box than the female programmer. Meaning the person with least amount of time spent with others is probably the person with better coding skills.

That's nuts. First of all, some people, including good coders, need a social life in order to maintain a groove, even if the social life is with other programmers. Secondly, you have no justification for your claim that a female programmer will have more social time than a male programmer. Thirdly, you have no justification for your claim that strong coding skills require one to spend less time with others.

It sounds to me like you're creating a just-so-story based on insufficient evidence. And possibly alienating potential co-workers at the same time. This is not a good combination.

Great, HP is on our side...

[theoddone33]

I hope they don't preload all kinds of annoying and crappy inhouse software on the Linux boxes like they do for Pavilions. I doubt they preload stuff like that on business machines, which is good. Keep that crap on Windows please.

No VPN Client For Linux

[PingXao]

A client needed some work done on a few of their Linux systems. They allow incoming traffic onto their LAN only through their Intel NetStructure VPN appliance. No problem, "send me the client software" I said, and they did. It was for Windows only!

So I undertook some research. Intel bought their NetStructure line from Shiva some time ago. After a few of their (Intel's) chip customers complained long and hard about competitive issues a la pre-packaged devices such as NetStructure, Intel decided to get out of the appliance biz. Then stopped making the NetStructure VPN appliance. They sold it to HP. Here's Intel's announcement and here's HP's announcement. Here's an IT World story about the same thing. They all tell how Intel's NetStructure 31xx VPN Gateway product line will still be available through HP as the HP VPN Server Appliance SA3xxx series. These are basically old Shiva products - hence their use of SST (Shiva Secure Tunnel) tunnels which are AFAIK unique to these products.

Here's the catch: while these server appliances run Linux (I know I saw that somewhere but I can't remember where) they have no Linux client software! Here's Intel's support page (look for their client software support) and HP's support page - don't have the URL handy but I'm sure of it - contains the same information.

The upshot of all this is that in order to work on Linux systems at a remote location from my local PC, I have to pass through a VPN Gateway which also runs Linux, but I have to use Windows on my end for the VPN client. What a crock! I looked into free/Swan but it doesn't do Shiva Secure Tunnels. Until HP gets serious about this one particular product line and gets some Linux client sotware into the picture, I'm steering clear of anything else they may trumpet as part of their "We do Linux" hype.

Selling systems with no OS

[killmenow]

My company would do it, but only for their "key" customers, organizations that ordered systems by the hundreds. Otherwise, it just wasn't worth it, particularly with the razor-thin margins in the business.

I don't understand this. I used to work for a whitebox OEM company. All of our systems were sold with an OS imaged onto the HDD.

It makes no sense to say:

1. the last step is to load the OS onto the HDD
2. to sell it blank you get to skip this step
3. skipping the OS load requires less effort, less time, and less testing
4. it costs more to manufacture the product without the OS

I just think that's crazy talk.

Re:Selling systems with no OS

[HardCase]

It makes no sense to say:

the last step is to load the OS onto the HDD

to sell it blank you get to skip this step

skipping the OS load requires less effort, less time, and less testing

it costs more to manufacture the product without the OS

I just think that's crazy talk

For a small capacity production line, I agree, it would be more efficient and cheaper to ship with a blank drive. But for a large (thousands of systems a week), a blank system is a huge deviation from the norm. Typically the OS load is not the last step...it's among the last steps, but operational tests are the last steps, and they depend on some portion of the OS to be loaded. Skip that step for a vanishingly small percentage of systems and a new process has to be implemented...and that comes at a cost. Large manufacturers simply cannot afford to implement processes like that for such a tiny number of systems. The margins just don't allow it...but that provides opportunities to smaller shops to fill the niche.

-h-

Guys, comeon...

[vmalloc_]

Is it REALLY that hard to install your own friggin' linux distribution?

Besides, i'd rather have a choice than only have red hat as an option. Ask them to sell clean hard drives and we'll talk.

In a way...

[gatesh8r]

If they are running an X server and you're the configurer... what you could do is set up a way to make an sshd run on their machine (not like they'll notice) by a simple click of an icon (and requiring the root passwd) to start the sshd and you logon through SSH (remember there is an option that allows the forwarding of X sessions.) to do remote maitenence. I really wish I had this option being here at college and my family using 9x. It really sucks because I can't just "fix it" and be done with it in a few minutes over having to listen to them whine that "It doesn't work!" and "I dunno what you're talking about; how about I come get you?"

Actually...

[Scoria]

... it was probably an intelligent decision not to offer machines with Linucks [sic, spelling nazis] preinstalled to home users. After all, a great majority of home users (who aren't technology enthusiasts) require nothing more than Windows ME, an installation of Quake 3, and a copy of Office SBE.

This is probably one of the reasons that Dell stopped producing home PCs with Linux: the demand was negligible. Oh, and I'm certain that the technical support for Linux most likely cost them some money.

Other Linux Pathfinders

[_Sprocket_]

Linux may be ready for the enterprise, but no one wants to be the pioneer, anymore than anyone wants to be the pioneer for WinXP in the corporate environement. Conservatism rules.

You won't be the first one to put Linux on a desktop in a corporate environment. Cisco Systems already has an official Linux desktop distro (although they also support Win2k and Solaris/Sun workstations - part of an excellent program to give their employees the tools they need/want). And I was rather shocked to hear that an aerospace contractor in the local area has a Linux desktop deployment (I've always seen Aerospace contractors as ultra-conservative with IT).

I have to wonder how many other corporate environments are quietly implementing Linux. Not in their server room. Not in their product. On the desktop.

Re:Crap... This is will likely be modded as flameb

[Bruce Perens]

The ones that don't install their own loads, also don't run leading-edge distributions.

Bruce

Home vs. Business

[Per Abrahamsen]

I don't see how that decission makes sense. A business who want to run Linux should have at least one person who can administrate a Linux box, and such a person would most likely want to install a "company standard" Linux distribution on all computers.

On the other hand, a home user may wish to run Linux because he has experience as a Unix user from work or school, but with no desire of doing more administrative work than necessary. For him, a preinstalled Linux would be usefull.

Still looking for a Branded Laptop without M$ Tax

[giggls]

I don't mind installing Linux myself, but I don't like paying Microsoft for any Branded Notebook I buy. Thus I would not mind deinstalling Redhat and installing Debian GNU/Linux afterwords ;)

OS-less systems in UK

[Dominic]

For those in the UK, you can buy prebuilt systems without an OS from Novatech (www.novatech.co.uk). Buying your PC without Windows (Linux isn't an option) saves you 80 pounds (299 exc. VAT for a Duran 1GHz).

I don't work for them, but I've used them and they're good.

Linux on HP.

[p3rlm0nger]

I think that anyone who is savvy enough to buy Linux on a pc, is probably not going to like the default setup. I would see hp being much more successful, if they would do something like Microsoft does w/ their HCL. " These systems are compatible w/ Linux. " Then the end user can install. Face it your average Joe is not going to buy a $2,000 PC just cause it comes w/ Linux on it. ( mabye a powermac g4 ) -P3rlm0nger

HP Linux certification

[gruntvald]

They do this - have certified, and tested hardware and include Linux in their OS compatibility tables. That's how I bought an LH4 - they even had a whitepaper on the install. Last time I checked, (about 2 weeks ago) they had all kinds of systems listed, including desktops and servers. I didn't check for laptops though.