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The Price Of Doing Business
8127972 writes: "It seems that a ton of high tech companies are leaving cities (like San Fran) with high costs of doing business for cheaper cities (Washington DC is mentioned due to new government spending) or even cities in Canada. Sounds like American high tech workers are going to have to learn to say the word "eh?" a lot."
The cost of living here is SUPER low.. plus.. you can hire VBscript monkies to work on ASP sites for $8/hour.
:)
In Oklahoma, you put an add in the paper, and you will have billions of applications and you can pick who ever is willing to take the least amount of pay.
That is why companies like AOL like to put call centers in Oklahoma cause they can pay a whole $9/hour and people shit themselves about how much money it is.
Unfortuantly, actually SELLING a product in Oklahoma is kind of bleak.. but if your product is nation wide.. then this is the place.
We Canadian's could end all our sentences with "Dontcha know!".
=)
I find it amazing that they are moving out of large US cities into Canda instead of just moving to the midwest or something. Chicago is quite a lot cheaper than the coastal cities, and it has all the usual big-city perks.
Of course there are also a lot of small citys that would kill for some high-tech company to move in. Seems like they could get some pretty good deals if they used that option.
Why do so many companies feel the need to be tied to a coast?
Hexy - a strategy game for iPhone/iPod Touch
There has been alot of commentary on this subject. The Gartner group put out this commentary about the "Tech Wreck" coming to the SF Bay area.
They claim that a city will do well if they install a broadband communications network that connects citizens, local businesses and the global marketplace.
I think that the obvious solution to this may be Telecomutting See this link for more info
Bad karma revisits landlords who threw out poor people for those who could handle higher rents! News at 11!
Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
I heard that tech companies are planning on moving to North Dakota. Of course, only after the state gets electricity, and Telco. And they'll still have to convince residents not to run them out with pitchforks and torches while yelling charges of witchery.
Then there's that little issue of finding the road during the winter since the ditches fill with snow and are level with the highway. Wow, I can't believe I actually lived there for over a year and made it out alive. The newest computer that I saw in that state was my apple IIe, which was 13 years old at the time. The only other computer I saw was at a bank, and made in the early 70's.
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from the they're-not-even-a-real-country-anyway dept.
What is this? Editor-troll-and-flamebait day?
In any case, the movie industry here in sunny SoCal has had this problem for a long time, which is why a lot of productions have been moving up to non-sunny Canada.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
Columbus, where I live, is a great place for this. We have a decent bus system, lots of shopping places, and lot's of office space. There are alot of call centers here and lots of 18-20 year old's because of Ohio State, Franklin University, DeVry, Keller Graduate School, Capital, Otterbien and Mount Vernon Nazerene College are here also. Columbus is also one of Ohio's most wired cities with a decent penetration of broadband (available almost city wide I believe.). Rent's for workers can range from cheap to exhorbitant. You can, if you can afford it, even buy a condo downtown in Miranova (starting aroun $300,000). Miranova is for that executive who doesn't like to put a lot of miles on thier Beamer (right downtown). In any case, Ohio in general is a good place for high tech (at least that's my feeling anyway!).
Gorkman
Recently in Canada one of the hot topics of discussion is about the "brain drain" to the US, where IT grads were moving to California for employment due to low taxes and a stronger US dollar (although supposedly we're doing quite well with educated immigrants). Still it would be interesting to see how many of these workers (or even companies) are Canadian or have strong Canadian connections already.
I stole this Sig
It's funny that the article mentions Toronto as a viable relocation for high-tech companies - Toronto is generally considered as the most expensive city in Canada, followed by Vancouver.
Calgary is attractive to employees because unlike most of Canada, there is no provincial sales tax, only federal sales tax (so they end up paying only 7% on everything they buy, as opposed to 15% like Ontario and the eastern provinces).
One major centre which is not mentioned in Montreal - which is incredibly cheap compared to the other major urban centres in Canada. It's generally cheaper Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa in almost every category for employees (rent, car insurance, food, beer...) Only problem is that Quebec has a high rate of provincial tax, so maybe it factors out a bit in the end.
"Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1801
Here's a neat tool that let's you compare what your income would have to be elsewhere in order to have the same lifestyle.
$100,000 in Oklahoma City compares to $279,000 in Menlo Park.
I saw it on the Internet, so it must be true.
Oh, I can't help quoting you because everything that you said rings true
...the fact that trying to actually get in to Canada "sucks".
If all the high tech jobs move up that way, most Slashdot readers are gonna be working behind the counters at 7-11, unless Canada loosens its new immigration restrictions a bit.
Disadvantages
One thing that I find ironic is that it was only a few years ago that Nortel was threatening to leave Canada because of its taxation rates which hurt corporations trying to compete against those in the USA.
Oh yeah, for sure. We got the curling too, eh? And Tim Horton's. :)
Trust me, my fellow techies, if you ever move up here, get an apartment or house within two or three minutes walk of a Tim Horton's. You will not regret it.
Baltimore Big Business Quotes:
"When we gonna get us some of that them there health care Hon ?"
"If we could switch to Solar Panels, we would use a lots less Earl (oil)."
"Whys that there stadium say PSI-NET? Whoz that Hon ?"
"Yea, this heres the new business capitals, we're right between Warshington and Napolis."
[non baltimore residents need not laugh]
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
> The east says "eh", the west sounds just like Seattle.
Okay, then, let's get this straight:
East: "Sure, whatever, eh?"
West: "Sure, whatever, Seattle?"
I think I like it the Eastern way better, eh?
Virg
And on the bright side you can talk to most of them as they wait in line at the unemployment office.
San Francisco and Silicon Valley has an enormous critical mass of Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans people, and Nerds. The counter-culture continues to thrive here.
For techies - it means that you are respected and accepted everywhere, no matter what you look like.
It is the opposite of the nightmare world Jon Katz describes in "Voices from the Hellmouth". Nobody who has been dumped-on for being smart or diferent wants to go back out into the cold.
Attempts to replicate the Bay Area have to replicate this tolerance too - which often requires a massive, slow change in attitude.
-- Jamie
Next if US'ers moves here they'll be paid in Canadian dollars. While you'll live well in Canada it's a big pay cut from the US, especially when you add taxes on top. Furthermore prices in Canadian cities have started to rise and while they don't compare to NYC, Boston or SF they're still shocking the natives and expensive in local terms.
Finally there are the cultural differences. While visiting Toronto or Vancouver may feel very familiar to a US'er that changes when you actually live here (Montreal is immediately obvious as being different.) There're the little things like brands being different, everyone being that one notch politer, and Curling being a real sport. There's also a dearth of ghastly evening news (you'd think Canadians are the world's worst drivers from watching TV news until you realize there aren't as many shootings and other violent incidents for the if-it-bleeds-it-leads stories) and lots more interest in international events.
However there are even more important differences. One is the Quebec issue. This is where I live but it comes up everywhere across the nation: French language laws, government policies, separatism, and the economic shock-waves every time Quebec threatens to leave.
Other significant differences:
- Little separation of Church & State with things like religious lessons in schools.
- However by-and-large Canada is more liberal then the US and does have far fewer of the extreme right-wing biblethumpers.
- Canada doesn't place individual liberties above all else; the general good is at least as important.
- The Provinces are stronger politically then US States and there's a lot more Federal/Provincial jostling.
- Strong social policies often more in line with European models then US.
- Political parties that don't map at all onto the US model.
- Socialized Medicine (services are generally good in spite of the horror stories often heard in the States.)
- Establishing credit across the border can be difficult, sometimes very difficult.
- Lots of technology comes out later in Canada (wireless Palms) or not at all (TiVo.)
- While Canadians get US TV & somewhat radio there are lots of programs, acts, and personalities that are big in Canada but unheard of in the US. Some are programs like "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" and others are bands that make Top-10 in Canada but never rise above Top 500 in the US.
No, I like living in Canada a lot, and US friends love visiting, but ask any US expat. living in Canada and they'll tell you it is different and it's more then the good beer.I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
According to Ernst & Young Canada Tax Calculator, marginal rates in most provinces top out at around 40-50%.
If you're in CA (California) and making $US 75K, you're paying a marginal federal rate of 27%, plus 9.3% state taxes (on everything over $30000), plus 6.3% for the SS pyramid scheme (up to $86000 and increasing by 5% per year), plus another 1.5% for medicare taxes. Works out to a marginal rate of about 45%.
If you're in .ca (Canada) and making $CAD 75K, you've stopped paying into CPP (the Canadian version of the SS pyramid scheme) and EI (unemployment insurance) after C$35K or so. The marginal rates aren't really any different.
Of course, a $CAD is worth about $0.63 US, so your C$80K is only $50K. But the cost of living is much lower.
Got investments? Canada taxes capital gains at only half the marginal rates, and has no long-term vs. short-term rate difference. (In the US, you have to hold it for a year to qualify for the 20% "long-term" federal rate, and in CA, you're still paying that 9.3% CA income tax on it. So your long-term capital gains in California are taxed at 29.3%, and your short-term trades are at 40%. In Canada, all trades are taxed at about 20%.)
GST/PST? OK, compare 15% vs. 8.25%. But how much do you spend, vs. how much do you save? The better-off you are, the less a consumption tax hits you.
And if you have kids, what do you get for your money? In the US, you pretty much need a private school and university education costs are about double. And you have to pay for your own medical insurance. In Canada, the health care for Bad Stuff (cancer, etc) sucks ass, but for 90% of the population that only has to deal with colds, flu, and the occasional broken bone, it seems pretty good.
Bottom line - The US may be tax-competitive for an individual, but California sure as fuck ain't.
Checking the weather in balmy Bowman, ND, I find a temperature of 8 degrees F, with a wind chill of -4 degrees F.
You can call me a wimp if you want, but I don't really like freezing my ass off, even if office space goes for $1/sq ft and I get a free DS3 to my house.
It's Linux, damnit! Pay no attention to renaming attempts by self-aggrandizing blowhards.
That said, send some jobs over here. We need em!
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
How many other places in the country can you place an ad for an esoteric vertical technology and reasonably expect 100 good resumes??
almost 1/2 your paycheck goes to income tax, employment insurance, and the Canada Pension Plan
You should manage your money a little better. I make over $80K and pay out only 25% for those items.
That is because Canada has roughly the same affluence as the poorest state in America.
That is highly doubtful. Canadians have always had a higher standard of living than Americans, and until just this year, the highest standard in the world (displaced by Denmark, I think). America is barely in the top ten.
Honestly, so many Canadians don't seem to know how well they have it!
* Detractors:
:). The only real detractor I would say is the hurricanes, but california has earthquakes, so pick your poison. However, if you go too far outside of the main cities, you have to deal with hicks and rednecks. Charleston is really pretty and the coast has some nice beaches, and I would say it's a pretty good place to live.
* Well, it is South Carolina
* Convincing your staff to move here
I've lived in South Carolina for most of my life and I wouldn't say it's a bad place to live and actually right now I'd much rather be there than here in colorado where it's -20 with the wind chill
On a side note, you will have to get used to a few cultural differences: "ya'll damn yankies better no be comin' don her and talk 'bout no 'civil war', ain't been no 'civil war', ya'll must mean da 'war o' nothern agression'!"
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
Don't let go of that attitude and make sure to tell all your friends about how bad it was in ND.
Make sure you mention the horrible things like wide open plains, warm summers, clean air, stable jobs, low crime rate, friendly people and low cost of living. Qwest provides service including DSL for the Fargo area. If you don't like DSL, go with a cable modem because yes we have those too. Fargo also has wireless access from Monet. Dickinson and the surrounding towns have Consolidated Communications which provides DSL and cable modems as well. I'm not exactly sure where you were, but the things you're describing are a complete opposite of what I've experienced.
Now after saying that... Stay out cause we don't want no strangers round these parts! Ma fetch me mah shotgun!
For anyone interested in San Francisco's rent situation, you might find these two articles, by Thomas Sowell, to be interesting: The Housing Farce and The Housing Farce, Part II.
Yes, California is the most expensive state to live in, but moving to Canada is hardly an improvement. You are better off moving to a low-tax/no-tax state.
Those who are going to argue about health care systems would do themselves justice reading Canada's Burning, an expose on the media lies that are being fed to us all.
You may well find that what you thought you knew to be true, isn't.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
The exodus from SF is the beginning of a larger trend. India graduates nearly 40,000 highly qualified engineers *every year*. China, probably four times that, and climbing. The Law of Lowest Wages, combined with increasing commodification of technology will drive many companies out of the US entirely within the next dozen years. Roughly 46% of our working population works directly or indirectly with technology. Think about what boardroon executives probably already considering as they make plans for future capital and physical investment. Capital is 'on the wire'. Domestic fealty just doesn't cut it for public corporations; not in a world where profit is king. There will still be strong technology innovation coming out of the U.S. for many years to come. However, much of the implementation of that innovation will not necessarily have to be performed by people here in the States. We're facing the very beginning of a huge social displacement problem. Look at the San Francisco phenomenon as a micro-trend that will soon snowball. Our domestic planners (an oxymoron?) had better start preparing for this and look for ways to either keep people fully employed, or actively interested in a slowed-down version of the 'good life', or we're looking for real trouble down the road.