Slashdot Mirror
The Price Of Doing Business
8127972 writes: "It seems that a ton of high tech companies are leaving cities (like San Fran) with high costs of doing business for cheaper cities (Washington DC is mentioned due to new government spending) or even cities in Canada. Sounds like American high tech workers are going to have to learn to say the word "eh?" a lot."
The cost of living here is SUPER low.. plus.. you can hire VBscript monkies to work on ASP sites for $8/hour.
:)
In Oklahoma, you put an add in the paper, and you will have billions of applications and you can pick who ever is willing to take the least amount of pay.
That is why companies like AOL like to put call centers in Oklahoma cause they can pay a whole $9/hour and people shit themselves about how much money it is.
Unfortuantly, actually SELLING a product in Oklahoma is kind of bleak.. but if your product is nation wide.. then this is the place.
I hear there is some cheap real estate in Kabul...
We Canadian's could end all our sentences with "Dontcha know!".
=)
First off, Canadian's don't say 'eh', well not much anyway... Second, the dollar is worth a lot more over here than in the states. There are a lot of technology companies in the states paying nearly twice as much in salary for US workers, than what they need to pay their Canadian counterparts, for equal, if not better productivity and performance. But with the same logic, the Australian dollar is even cheaper than the Canadian dollar... So should all high tech workers learn Australian slang? I think not.
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
I find it amazing that they are moving out of large US cities into Canda instead of just moving to the midwest or something. Chicago is quite a lot cheaper than the coastal cities, and it has all the usual big-city perks.
Of course there are also a lot of small citys that would kill for some high-tech company to move in. Seems like they could get some pretty good deals if they used that option.
Why do so many companies feel the need to be tied to a coast?
Hexy - a strategy game for iPhone/iPod Touch
There has been alot of commentary on this subject. The Gartner group put out this commentary about the "Tech Wreck" coming to the SF Bay area.
They claim that a city will do well if they install a broadband communications network that connects citizens, local businesses and the global marketplace.
I think that the obvious solution to this may be Telecomutting See this link for more info
The Bay Area economy has always been like this. Anyone who has been here for more then 10 years will realise that the entire thing is cyclical. Years of boom, then years of bust.
If you stick around long enough, you'll even see it yourself. Eventually, the next big thing(tm) will make its way back to the Bay Area and everyone will re-locate here again.
Bad karma revisits landlords who threw out poor people for those who could handle higher rents! News at 11!
Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
I heard that tech companies are planning on moving to North Dakota. Of course, only after the state gets electricity, and Telco. And they'll still have to convince residents not to run them out with pitchforks and torches while yelling charges of witchery.
Then there's that little issue of finding the road during the winter since the ditches fill with snow and are level with the highway. Wow, I can't believe I actually lived there for over a year and made it out alive. The newest computer that I saw in that state was my apple IIe, which was 13 years old at the time. The only other computer I saw was at a bank, and made in the early 70's.
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The median cost of rent where I live is the highest in the country. It's a nice place, but I could be buying a house in Ohio every five years, it's that bad. Firemen, police, teachers, gardeners, and others with lower incomes have been leaving the area and are very hard to recruit. The irony is, where tech industries fled to, early on, have become a similar problem. Austin, TX is a great example, seeing insanely rapid growth and the problems it brought, Sacramento, CA went the same route in the mid 80's. However, if you're looking for a decent place out of SF, Sacto isn't a bad place to go. Lots of office space and lower cost of living.
Canada? Wouldn't the taxes alone make that less appealing? When I think it's expensive in California, all I have to do is remember the GST and PST I paid in Ontario. Gads. Probably lots of available land, but so has most of the midwest.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Anyone who's ever been to / lived in San Fran. or San Jose and seen the insane suburban population density there knows that those cities have some major disadvantages despite the wonderful weather. Some people like it, but for many, it's just not their style. Also the cost of living there is downright ridiculous compared to say.. the mid-west or north-east US.
Well, the exodus makes up for all the people that came here during the dot bomb. Change is a scary scary thing.
from the they're-not-even-a-real-country-anyway dept.
What is this? Editor-troll-and-flamebait day?
In any case, the movie industry here in sunny SoCal has had this problem for a long time, which is why a lot of productions have been moving up to non-sunny Canada.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
Shameless Plug: rural communities with bandwidth can be found. Two I work in can be found at:
http://www.bowmannd.com
http://www.hettingernd.com
Columbus, where I live, is a great place for this. We have a decent bus system, lots of shopping places, and lot's of office space. There are alot of call centers here and lots of 18-20 year old's because of Ohio State, Franklin University, DeVry, Keller Graduate School, Capital, Otterbien and Mount Vernon Nazerene College are here also. Columbus is also one of Ohio's most wired cities with a decent penetration of broadband (available almost city wide I believe.). Rent's for workers can range from cheap to exhorbitant. You can, if you can afford it, even buy a condo downtown in Miranova (starting aroun $300,000). Miranova is for that executive who doesn't like to put a lot of miles on thier Beamer (right downtown). In any case, Ohio in general is a good place for high tech (at least that's my feeling anyway!).
Gorkman
Recently in Canada one of the hot topics of discussion is about the "brain drain" to the US, where IT grads were moving to California for employment due to low taxes and a stronger US dollar (although supposedly we're doing quite well with educated immigrants). Still it would be interesting to see how many of these workers (or even companies) are Canadian or have strong Canadian connections already.
I stole this Sig
Yup, the Bay Area is expensive. You get the world's best array of tech talent in a 100 mile radius. Thats going to cost you.
I live, work and play in a high tech burb. Just outside of Boston but in the tax free state of New Hampshire. When I first moved to this area it was great. Tons of high tech, low rent and tons of people just like me who had just moved into the area. After 4 years I will say that everything has changed. With all the high tech moving in the rent has jumped up 4-800 dollars for a two bedroom and the jump is even higher for a 1 bedroom for some reason.
I guess the moral to this rant is that no matter where you go to after a while its the exact same as where you left. The small town life doesnt remain the small town life for long as soon as the town fathers realize that they can make tons of cash off the tech industry.
I cant wait for the days where a high speed access point and a video phone are all you will need and you can work from anywhere.
If I were only smart enough to accomplish the things I dream about.. Or maybe too dumb to care.
As a tech worker who has (recently) endured lack of jobs in this sector, I plead to come here. The cost of living is very low, we have Purdue, IU, and Rose-Hulman, the NCSA is right down the road, the Internet2 has a main artery here, and God knows we need more tech-savvy people here. We'll even change to daylight savings time for ya...honest.
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
It's funny that the article mentions Toronto as a viable relocation for high-tech companies - Toronto is generally considered as the most expensive city in Canada, followed by Vancouver.
Calgary is attractive to employees because unlike most of Canada, there is no provincial sales tax, only federal sales tax (so they end up paying only 7% on everything they buy, as opposed to 15% like Ontario and the eastern provinces).
One major centre which is not mentioned in Montreal - which is incredibly cheap compared to the other major urban centres in Canada. It's generally cheaper Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa in almost every category for employees (rent, car insurance, food, beer...) Only problem is that Quebec has a high rate of provincial tax, so maybe it factors out a bit in the end.
"Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1801
'Blame Canada'
:) but he was gracious enough to put up ar ereally nice post after the fact...
he's already knocked us for taking some of the film industry (ok, he's not the only one.... but remember they created Hollywood in California for the good weather - now with the smog in LA they can't shoot much anymore)
then there is the whole Hockey thumping... (damnit it's our sport anyways!
and lastly there are those damn 'Canadian Cold Fronts' that make it snow in Texas... yes definately BLAME CANADA!
ah.... all better now
have a great weekend all!
:)
Just a quick note: I am from Canada (Vancouver) and right now a US dollar gets you Cdn$1.592, which means company A who would pay employee XX US$70,000, can pay the employee Cdn$70,000 which is US$43,970 and save a grand total of $26,030. The employee would be totally happy, as the cost of living here is almost 1:1 when compared to most high tech centres in the States (ala Seattle, etc...) and the standard of living is just the same, if not higher, less traffic, beautiful nature and so on. As for education level, good universities here have the same level of education as good universities anywhere else, and due to the multicultural nature of Vancouver, there is a lot of talent that migrates here from other countries...
:)
So all in all, it would be a win-win situation for them... and it has the same time-zone as LA, Seattle, San Fran and so on (as opposed to going over seas which makes for a development nightmare! I have been through it, working with UK/Ireland - from Vancouver, and let me tell you it is NOT my idea of fun
peace.
-farshad
...and remember in your brain boggle, wrong starts with a wubble-u.
I never understood why a business would want to station itself in the Bay Area. If I pay 450k for a 3 bedroom house, it better be on 25 acres, preferably waterfront.
These guys are MBAs and they can't figure out how to spend less money. It blows my mind.
(/local/home/curiosity)-#who -u|grep thecat|cut -c 44-49|xargs kill -9
The Bay Area in particular is about the cutting edge industries - there is already a groundswell of biotech. Once an industry becomes mature and doesn't need cutting edge talent, it should leave the area.
Old hat tho. It happens (happened) in every industry. As the tech market becomes more 'bricks and mortar', the US will likely outsource much of its labour, although, as usual, not its executive staff.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Here's a neat tool that let's you compare what your income would have to be elsewhere in order to have the same lifestyle.
$100,000 in Oklahoma City compares to $279,000 in Menlo Park.
I saw it on the Internet, so it must be true.
Oh, I can't help quoting you because everything that you said rings true
Here in the Research Triangle Park, home to Red Hat, IBM, Cisco, Siemens, Motorola, Alcatel, Nortel, GE Aircraft Engines, Glaxo, Bayer, Fujitsu, AstraZeneca, and smaller software and support companies - this is the WORST its been in 30 years. On a national basis our labor costs are not even above average. I tend to think that failing companies relocate regardless of the cost of labor. The bigger problem is the cost of RENT in places like the Bay Area, SF.
...the fact that trying to actually get in to Canada "sucks".
If all the high tech jobs move up that way, most Slashdot readers are gonna be working behind the counters at 7-11, unless Canada loosens its new immigration restrictions a bit.
political_news.c: warning: comparison is always true due to limited range of data type
The Bay Area is an expensive market for expensive talent in expensive industries.
No, you should not manufacture widgets in the Bay Area if you can do so elsewhere. The companies that are here are here becuase they need a high concentration of talent across a set of tech industries that you cannot find elsewhere in quantity.
R&D is expensive and the Bay Area is the R&D shop for the nation (if not the world).
The one problem is - a tech company is composed of talented individuals. Most of the really talented people can find good jobs within their area, so they have less incentive to move to Podunk for just their career.
You can move the company, but if only the lower half of the talent pool follows, it's not a very good decision.
Disadvantages
One thing that I find ironic is that it was only a few years ago that Nortel was threatening to leave Canada because of its taxation rates which hurt corporations trying to compete against those in the USA.
Oh, man, I can't believe you missed this.
"Canada: it's not just aboot doughnuts anymore, eh?"
Virg
How many employees are going to move to JerkWater where their new employer is the only game in town??
...or should I say cents. Supply and demand, folks. What am I missing here? There's no reason whatsoever for most of these high tech companies to hang out in these high cost areas. You're jacking up the price for everyone else to live there just so you can form some geographical "high-tech band" in the US, when no industry could be farther from geocentricity than the high tech industries who've now finally gotten a clue. Take your business anywhere you can find electricity. For the price you're paying to run your company in the "high tech band" you could probably house all your employees and their families in dream homes in Iowa or someplace.
I'm no authority, but I am just glad to see things finally evening out a bit. A town isn't meant to consist 100% of high tech profitable firms. They need teachers and "sanitation engineers" and whatnot -- the guys who don't make a zillion dollars a year to pay for the housing.
Oh yeah, for sure. We got the curling too, eh? And Tim Horton's. :)
Trust me, my fellow techies, if you ever move up here, get an apartment or house within two or three minutes walk of a Tim Horton's. You will not regret it.
Baltimore Big Business Quotes:
"When we gonna get us some of that them there health care Hon ?"
"If we could switch to Solar Panels, we would use a lots less Earl (oil)."
"Whys that there stadium say PSI-NET? Whoz that Hon ?"
"Yea, this heres the new business capitals, we're right between Warshington and Napolis."
[non baltimore residents need not laugh]
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
> The east says "eh", the west sounds just like Seattle.
Okay, then, let's get this straight:
East: "Sure, whatever, eh?"
West: "Sure, whatever, Seattle?"
I think I like it the Eastern way better, eh?
Virg
Good. Techies who work for salary alone are going to be the ones I'll hold resposible for implementing the SSSCA .....
....
Work for the love, not the money. Techies are overpaid anyhow, although I will admit that they do tend to need to buy expensive toys for the home in order to stay competative in their industry as an exmplouee
"Old man yells at systemd"
Once KK enters the Canuck market, you are going to see Tim's get hammered (or vastly improve their donuts in response)
You have obviously not eaten at Shogun Jpn on Charles Street.
:)
Or seen a film at the Senator Theatre
Charles Street in Baltimore is the (more or less) "alternative-lifestyle-zone(tm)' of Baltimore.
You want good sushi, great dance clubs, and clothing/furnature shops ? thats the place to go.
You wanna get mugged ? go over to Security Blvd and stand still for about 30 seconds.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
That's exactly what we did. The whole company up and moved from DC to Portland, Maine last December. Real Estate's ALOT cheaper, the people are ALOT nicer, and the traffic is ALOT better.
i like the "even Canada" statement. said as if it were completely outrageous. "even timbucktwo..."
perhaps the weak Canadian dollar and the dual Canadian olympic hockey golds will be joined with a monumentous reverse brain drain. Canada's been complaining about it for years... maybe the US will get a kick at the can.
and i see the "baren glacier as soon as you hit the border" misconception is still alive and well. Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and others are massive metropolatin centers with similar climate to many US cities. in Vancouver it rarely freezes and typically has winter temperatures in the mid-high 40's. (that's around 8degC... eh?)
I never saw the reason for companies to locate their headquarters in the most expensive and trendy place possible. How many companies out there need that much physical proximity to others in the industry? Think of all the small manufacturing shops you see in the most remote places, and they depend on raw materiels and suffer if the freight cost is too high. What excuse does the IT industry have? None, as far as I can see. There are literally countless locations across the country that are ridiculously inexpensive and have the high-quality of life that will attract workers.
But no, IT corporations say "We need to move to San Franciso!". They are idiotic, and they get what they deserve for making such stupid mistakes, I have about as much sympathy for them as those who are rebuilding for the third time in the same location because putting up a house on a flood plain was a Really Good Idea (tm).
Is there any compelling reason to be there, other than ego? In most - read: almost all - cases....no.
Furthermore, what really gets me, is when companies have little or no revenue stream and decide to plop down in the most expensive place they can find and then set to work on maybe, you know....making some money.
Here is a stunning idea, locate somplace inexpensive - if you think you won't get any employees or business by setting up someplace that isn't flashy you are ignorant or simply unwilling to accept the truth. Then, build your bussiness slowly, spend as little as possible, supply good, but not extravagant workspaces and equipment and do away with most or all luxuries and see what happens. You might actually last more than a year or two. And when your company grows, it might actually be sensible to move to somplace more upscale. You know.....when you can actually afford to.
People just need to think for a minute, before they go off making dumb and obvious mistakes then crying about it later on.
an abundance of gorgeous people are our best kept secret
Ah, I see you don't live in New Brunswick.
I swear, all I'm looking for is a woman with less facial hair than me and no kids. Are my standards just too high?
Salaries are okay, if it wasn't for all the taxes I could've done way more with my salary.
The near mythic status of SF has to go. The idea that you can't do business without being in Cali or at least having a "west coast office" is bull, and has harmed the industry.
That being said, I live in Fairfax Virginia and based on the employment section of the Post, it doesn't seem like people are exactly *flocking* to this part of the country. If they are, they aren't hiring. Its still pretty dismal around here, UNLESS you have a security clearance, in which case you have nothing but options... "Will code Perl to help fight the Taliban, please ignore that I'm a slacker misanthrope, that was cool in the dot-com days..."
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
San Francisco and Silicon Valley has an enormous critical mass of Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Trans people, and Nerds. The counter-culture continues to thrive here.
For techies - it means that you are respected and accepted everywhere, no matter what you look like.
It is the opposite of the nightmare world Jon Katz describes in "Voices from the Hellmouth". Nobody who has been dumped-on for being smart or diferent wants to go back out into the cold.
Attempts to replicate the Bay Area have to replicate this tolerance too - which often requires a massive, slow change in attitude.
-- Jamie
The huge variation in the cost of living among cities is why those "What Programmers Get Paid" surveys are one of my pet peeves.
I always feel a bit inferior--for a second--when I look at how underpaid I am relative to the statistics in these articles. However, I quickly realize that these statistics are mostly from people in places like Silicon Valley, where a pup tent in someone's back yard costs $150,000.
The fact is that these articles include naieve and misguided analyses of income. It is much better to just rely on a few real data points, such as those from recent job offers, and use local consumer-price-index numbers to scale the salaries accordingly. It is suprising how $40,000/yr. in a small south-east city can easily equal $60,000/yr. in Chicago, for example.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Take off!
To the Great White North.
Take off!
It's a beauty way to go.
Ok, I've got a few karma points to throw away:
Q. How do Canadians spell Canada?
A. C, eh? N, eh? D, eh?
/me bows.
Ok, now continue with the real conversation.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
Next if US'ers moves here they'll be paid in Canadian dollars. While you'll live well in Canada it's a big pay cut from the US, especially when you add taxes on top. Furthermore prices in Canadian cities have started to rise and while they don't compare to NYC, Boston or SF they're still shocking the natives and expensive in local terms.
Finally there are the cultural differences. While visiting Toronto or Vancouver may feel very familiar to a US'er that changes when you actually live here (Montreal is immediately obvious as being different.) There're the little things like brands being different, everyone being that one notch politer, and Curling being a real sport. There's also a dearth of ghastly evening news (you'd think Canadians are the world's worst drivers from watching TV news until you realize there aren't as many shootings and other violent incidents for the if-it-bleeds-it-leads stories) and lots more interest in international events.
However there are even more important differences. One is the Quebec issue. This is where I live but it comes up everywhere across the nation: French language laws, government policies, separatism, and the economic shock-waves every time Quebec threatens to leave.
Other significant differences:
- Little separation of Church & State with things like religious lessons in schools.
- However by-and-large Canada is more liberal then the US and does have far fewer of the extreme right-wing biblethumpers.
- Canada doesn't place individual liberties above all else; the general good is at least as important.
- The Provinces are stronger politically then US States and there's a lot more Federal/Provincial jostling.
- Strong social policies often more in line with European models then US.
- Political parties that don't map at all onto the US model.
- Socialized Medicine (services are generally good in spite of the horror stories often heard in the States.)
- Establishing credit across the border can be difficult, sometimes very difficult.
- Lots of technology comes out later in Canada (wireless Palms) or not at all (TiVo.)
- While Canadians get US TV & somewhat radio there are lots of programs, acts, and personalities that are big in Canada but unheard of in the US. Some are programs like "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" and others are bands that make Top-10 in Canada but never rise above Top 500 in the US.
No, I like living in Canada a lot, and US friends love visiting, but ask any US expat. living in Canada and they'll tell you it is different and it's more then the good beer.I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
That said, send some jobs over here. We need em!
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
How many other places in the country can you place an ad for an esoteric vertical technology and reasonably expect 100 good resumes??
almost 1/2 your paycheck goes to income tax, employment insurance, and the Canada Pension Plan
You should manage your money a little better. I make over $80K and pay out only 25% for those items.
Smaller cities have new movies. Columbus in Georgia had a few really nice theaters and the new movies came out the same time as in NYC and LA. Only thing in NYC and LA are the preview showings 1 week prior to opening. But the ticket prices are cheaper in the smaller towns.
Forget about that $100k US (equivalent) coding position in Ottawa
So what would be the equivalent when you adjust by cost of living and purchasing-power parity? $100k CA? $90k CA?
I've been yelling about this for years.
There's no reason to be in an expensive place to do this sort of business. It adds nothing to productivity. The only thing it adds is cachet, which only impresses VC's. Hence, what happened.
The scam is over. Time to get back to work.
--Blair
almost 1/2 your paycheck goes to income tax, employment insurance, and the Canada Pension Plan (which will by dry in 10-20 years)
In short, you'll always live confortably. But you'll never have that extra money you need.
only one airline, and man does it suck
And I believe it's got $4 billion in debts thanks to the government who wanted to boost the competition but failed.
yeah, ok - it's a little colder
Not to worry the pollution will take care of heating us up.
the healthcare system is spiralling downwards due to funding shortages passed onto the provinces from a sneaky federal government that wants to report a "surplus"
Quebec receives $4.79 billion in fundings out of the $10 billion. For some reason they still complain about money. British Columbia receives like $200 million out of those $10 billions.
Thanks to those great roads, you'll need a new car every few years.
That is because Canada has roughly the same affluence as the poorest state in America.
That is highly doubtful. Canadians have always had a higher standard of living than Americans, and until just this year, the highest standard in the world (displaced by Denmark, I think). America is barely in the top ten.
Honestly, so many Canadians don't seem to know how well they have it!
>BTW No, and we don't pronounce it "a-boot" Who started that myth?
You're correct in that we don't pronounce it 'a-boot', but we *do* tend to pronounce 'ou' as a dipthong. The trouble is that when an English speaker who is not accustomed to this phoneme hears it... their brain instinctively maps it on to the closest phoneme that they are accustomed to, which is usually 'oo'.
There is a cute little article on the historical aspects at: http://www.m-w.com/wftw/00may/052200.htm
Better Beer
I only live a few miles from Canada, but California has the better beer. Sierra Nevada and Anchor Brewing make some of the best beers in the world.
http://www.kubuntu.org/
I found that there's one other major problem with relocating to Quebec. They seem to be very intolerant of outsiders, especially Americans. Every time I've been to Quebec, I was treated very badly, to the point where I decided never to return (things like hotel personnel who spoke English to each other, but when I approached they would only speak French to me, and waiters who ignored me after they discovered from my accent that I was American). Several colleagues of mine were confronted with the same issues. I had no such problems in Toronto.
Virg
The question that needs to be asked is: "Why does an entire company need to be 'near the business'?" I have personally never heard a good answer to this, considering the facts presented. Many 'reasons' too be located in the center of activity are not mutually exclusive with reasons not to be, or perhaps are simply overruled by basic givens of the situation at large and past performance. As an example, take a large IT company that claims that they must be in the center of the business, like in the DC area, more specifically in a dense concrete jungle of bad traffic and long commutes to work (long time, not really distance) because of COL prices in the area. In reality, that IT company most likely does more work outside the area it is housed in (perhaps most of it international). Perhaps even there are other of that company's locations that are distant, yet those distant locations often are the ones with the business that is in the same area as this business location. That makes no sense really, but it does happen quite frequently. When you look at government contracts (the stated reason for a DC location normally) you find that the actual work is done far away and with DoD often overseas. You end up with the realization soon that it apparently does not matter at all where you are located on the actual productivity side of things. However, there is a need for marketing types and liason types to be near the equivelent customer types like that. Yet again, reality is much different then this, as most companies house a significant portion of customer interaction personnel in locations far away from the customer.
Perhaps it is just another example of an initial good idea not having critical thought applied to it (not thought through) coupled with inefficient processes, incompetent decision makers and confused middle management.
So the real lessons... the long term lessons should be looked at here in detail. Moving a large company to another location is not cheap by any means. Add to that the initial cost that drove them away, and sprinkle on top the very real possibility that the same situation will happen again in the new location, and you are left with a nice recipe for disaster. No number of degrees, powerpoint slides, meetings, fancy talking, buzz words or that typical management pseudo-busy pacing is going to change that. (pseudo-busy pacing referring to when they think that ANY work, regardless of efficiency and relevancy to the needed work is performed just to say 'yeah we did something', much like a mouse in a wheel)
A smart business person will not get so wrapped up in desires that they only look at red tape policies and not real results. Company picnics and cool looking golf shirts will not keep employees happy, especially if they feel that their decision makers are more interested in tricking and manipulating their employees (through picnics, shirts and other false moral raisers). Most employees at non management levels I have ever interacted with where indeed interested in moving forward and producing good work. It is only when treated like thieves and criminals that they began to exhibit the complacent and lackadasical attitude that the managers seemed to 'expect'. I am thinking that decision makers need to stop following the crowd so much. If a company decides to make a medium sized campus out in 'the boonies' and it works well, I fully expect that the brainless sheep of many other companies would mimic this, while not trully understanding the real reasons, motivations and desires of the remote location move in the first place. next thing you see will be a very popular trend to open up massive campuses in the middle of farm country, and added to that you will find they stupidly flock together (like sheep) in the same locations, creating more big cities and the same problem that caused the employees to leave in the first place. (thus resulting in the 'new move')
its not that hard people, you just gotta stop worshiping processes and use your brain.
* Detractors:
:). The only real detractor I would say is the hurricanes, but california has earthquakes, so pick your poison. However, if you go too far outside of the main cities, you have to deal with hicks and rednecks. Charleston is really pretty and the coast has some nice beaches, and I would say it's a pretty good place to live.
* Well, it is South Carolina
* Convincing your staff to move here
I've lived in South Carolina for most of my life and I wouldn't say it's a bad place to live and actually right now I'd much rather be there than here in colorado where it's -20 with the wind chill
On a side note, you will have to get used to a few cultural differences: "ya'll damn yankies better no be comin' don her and talk 'bout no 'civil war', ain't been no 'civil war', ya'll must mean da 'war o' nothern agression'!"
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
It's probably going to be a lot easier for companies to move a relatively short distance, like SF to Sacramento. This gives the workers a lot more options if they decide to reconsider in the short term, and the influx of high-tech companies means that the deficit of employment options is going down rapidly.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
I just escaped DC last year. I grew up in that pit of a city and last year successfully escaped to a job in Seattle (a really great place to live if anyone is interested). Well, two months ago I got laid off and now I'm watching all the jobs here slowly dissapear and companies are moving away one by one. And where are they moving to? ARGH! I really don't want to go back to DC......
You diseased creatures are so obvlivious to the truth, you can't even see the folly of your own unsustainable lifestyle.
It doesn't matter where you relocate, if all you do once you get there is build build build, grow grow grow. You have the same effect on the local enonomy, no matter what part of the world you are in. An influx of highly paid workers causes the existing local markets to realize they can demand and get higher prices for what they are selling - be it houses, rent, gasoline, groceries, you name it. Yeah I just paid 450 thousand for a house that would sell for 95 thousand tops in Tucumare NM. So what. THe company I work at pays me enough to afford it. The (former) owner of the house knows this, so he asks as much as possible for the place, knowing I have no choice but to pay it. What else is he going to do, give me a break and let me have it for $1.98 just because I'm such a nice guy? That's not the way you creatures operate. It's not in your nature. It's not the way your brains work.
Meanwhile, there aren't enough existing houses to support the mass migration into the area, so local landowners and developers take advantage of the situation by doing what they do best: raping the land, building condo's and townhouses piled on top of each other so closely you can hear your neighbors chewing their Wheaties at the breakfast table in the morning. But does the expansion of available housing cause prices to fall? Nope! The rest of the community hops on board, riding on the coattails, milking it for all it's worth.
So where does it end, guys? WHen there is absolutely NO MORE LAND available to build new houses and Big Box malls? When we all make 6 million dollars a year, and cracker-box houses cost 4.5 million each, and cars cost 125 thousand used, and your cable TV/broadband bill is 3000 dollars a month?
Cost of business, indeed.
You figure it out.
The biggest knock against progress in the city is crime, drugs, safety. It is not a safe town with lots of animosity between socio-economic groups in addition to the blind rage associated w/abject poverty. the school system is absolutely horrid.
But somehow Baltimore is still more attractive than Canada?
Don't let go of that attitude and make sure to tell all your friends about how bad it was in ND.
Make sure you mention the horrible things like wide open plains, warm summers, clean air, stable jobs, low crime rate, friendly people and low cost of living. Qwest provides service including DSL for the Fargo area. If you don't like DSL, go with a cable modem because yes we have those too. Fargo also has wireless access from Monet. Dickinson and the surrounding towns have Consolidated Communications which provides DSL and cable modems as well. I'm not exactly sure where you were, but the things you're describing are a complete opposite of what I've experienced.
Now after saying that... Stay out cause we don't want no strangers round these parts! Ma fetch me mah shotgun!
And I believe it's got $4 billion in debts thanks to the government who wanted to boost the competition but failed.
No, it's got $4b in debts because they would rather compete EVERYWHERE than where the money is. They run routes at 10% capaticy just because other airlines run them. They don't realize that not running a plane is cheaper than running it for two people (though it's nice to be able to get seat upgrades when First Class is empty).
The government allowing competition is great, but Air Canada forgets that it's not the only player in town. It needs to clean up its act, focus more on the profitable routes, and start cutting out waste.
--Dan
For all intents and purposes Norman does not exist as a city past E 24th or past W 48th which is exactly 8 miles. Main street itself is only about 6 miles long. Also.. for all intents and purposes Norman does not exist south of Imhoff road, or north past Rock Creek Road.. Which is 4 miles. Keep in mind the city is kind of on a slant going from northwest to southeast... The city is growing fast tho, it used to not exist north of Robinson.
:)
Just because other areas are labled as a city doesn't mean a lot if no one actually lives out there. Oklahoma City is the second largest city land wise in the nation if you look at that type of figure. (If you actually look at the populated areas of Oklahoma City, it isn't very big).
I never said it was crowded. I just used to deliver flowers for a flower shop in Norman when I was 17, "The Norman Floral and Gift Gallery" across the street from Norman High.
The city planners who worked on Norman are total morans. It is insane to try and make deliveries through the city. Seriously, we had to turn down deliveries any time there was a game day. Even on a normal day, it takes HOURS to make a few deliviers mixed in that 8x4 mile city. Most streets are 25mph, traffic lights are placed every 20 feet down lindsey, pedestrian traffic gets in the way (especially down by OU).
My argument is simple, even tho Norman is small, hardly populated, and not well known. It really feels like you are in a big crowded city due to the lack of planning.
It took me just as long to travel to my girlfriends house that was 3 miles away from my work in Norman.. as it currently takes me to travel the 10 miles to work I drive in Oklahoma City, no highway just city streets.
Ohh, and don't call people names when you are logged in as an AC.
Actually Montreal is a world class city. It is clean, beautiful and has the best resturants and strip clubs I have ever been to. ;-)
I highly recommend the city to visit. Also, they party much harder there than say Boston or even Nashville where I currently make my home. Nashville is cheap to live in and has a small but growing high-tech sector. Sprint made the big jump to Kansas City and a small leap to Nashville from Chicago. It's the right thing to do, in my opinion. Spread the wealth I say.
Maybe if you're in Newfoundland. The maritime provinces are the only places up here where people talk funny. The rest of us talk like news anchors. Every wonder why most of the big network news guys are canadian? No accent, none, we speak like the dictionary.
Carpe Cerevisi - Seize the Beer
Calm down everyone!
This is an age old cycle. High demand for realestate in SF = higher prices being charged for rent. Now that demand is down the prices are going to fall and new tenants will go there.
Nothing to worry about so long as the government stays out of it and doesn't do something stupid with rentals like they did with utilities.
You are receiving this message because your browser supports Slashdot Sigs and you have Slashdot Sigs enabled.
Hey, now I can not only retain some of my basic human rights - but I can get a job too! Just how hard is it to become a Canadian citizen, eh?
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Sure, but there is another factor that is important for high-tech companies that Gartner is missing: skilled workers.
I work for a company that has one of its offices in Edmonton, AB, Canada. Why Edmonton? Let's see:
The third point there is very important. Yes, it is possible to attract SV engineers to Edmonton, but it takes a *lot* of effort and incentive. One major problem is that a SV engineer may sell a bungalow for $600,000 USD. In Edmonton, you can get a mansion for $200,000 USD; there are no houses to be bought for $600K. So the SV engineer suddenly has $400K to pay taxes on.
So, the vast majority of people in R&D are local-area Canadians.
Needless to say, I live 2 hours away and telecommute!
The reason they moved there, of course, is that this part of York has extremely poor economics and is being targeted for "growth" by the government. They have established an Official Small Business Bribery Zone and give us tax breaks and free services. Woohoo!
Justin
"Why would God give us a waist if we wasn't supposed to rest our pants on it?" - Rev. Roy McDaniels
My area is trying to promote economic development and the tech sector would do great up here. Take a place that has DSL and T-1s available, plenty of space to build or buildings to take over, a willing community that is eagerly accepting new business and even offering incentives, houses that cost $20-$40k on average, good schools systems, etc. and you have a very alluring place for people to come work. A local sofware company in Bancroft, IA also has a California branch. They offer their employees the choice of which they want to work at. Lately more have chosen Bancroft - especially those with families. Not as good an option for companies that need quick access to airports and major shipping routes, or for people who really need a good nightlife, but for many software or internet cos it would be great.
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
The better beer generally considers only the mass market beers, as microbrews are an entirely different ballgame.
Of course, when you're comparing urine to urine, does it really matter which is better? Molson or Bud, they're both fecking close to water.
Although, I did actually try a Budweiser last month, and I didn't realize how apt the joke was, when applied to Bud. Molson, at least, looks somewhat orangey-yellow. Bud was pale, pale, PALE straw yellow. I was dumbstruck.
Of course, I'm also a guiness drinker.
For anyone interested in San Francisco's rent situation, you might find these two articles, by Thomas Sowell, to be interesting: The Housing Farce and The Housing Farce, Part II.
A lot of the high-tech growth in the DFW area has been fueled by cheap land and a corresponding cheap workforce. A $300,000 two-bedroom cramped house in CA gets you near mansions here. In addition there are quite a few workers here dumped by the dotcom/telecom bust that drive hiring prices down. Plenty of electrical power here. There is no personal income tax in Texas, a real selling point for a million-plus executive looking to shelter his nest egg. Finally Texas cities often give tax breaks like depressed Southern states to lure business here.
That's not to say that price is the only factor. For instance until the last fifteen years DFW didn't really have enough of the highly specialized building contractors that make computer room sites. That's something you're not going to get everywhere.
Also proximity to what counts drives many location moves. DFW probably lost getting the Boeing HQ because it was not as close to Washington DC as Chicago (since Boeing business is largely driven by what happens with the DOD and FAA), and I suspect because of the lack of world-class four-year colleges and cultural opportunities.
For folks who live for SanFran it will be irreplacable. But for bottom-line folks other locales beckon.
________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
And I believe it's got $4 billion in debts thanks to the government who wanted to boost the competition but failed.
My understanding is that Air Canada negotiated hefty deals with its unions and suppliers when it thought it would own the sky, but then the industry went into decline and then Sept. 11th happened.
Companies are finally feeling the budget pinch caused by doing business in NYC, Seattle or San Fran? Come to your senses and move to Hawaii!
Hawaii has a warm, beautiful climate and some of the best karma on the planet. Unlike other parts of the USA, the people on the islands are genuinely kind-hearted and friendly to each other. - As long as you pack a sense of common decency along with your swimming trunks you will be treated as Ohana.
The cost-of-living is not as extreme as popular legend would demand - there are many people who comfortably survive here making less than $30K a year. Think of what your high-caliber IT wage can do here. Think of how much more value your expensive IT employees will find in their paycheck. And yes, there is bandwidth and lots of it.
A rich social ecology of Native, Asian, Pacific and European culture exists here. Not only is the food great (the best sushi in the US), but the level of cultural diversity is intoxicating to the average Western mind. There's nothing like walking through the park in the morning and passing by a group of Chinese seniors moving through their Tai-Chi exercises, and strolling back through it in the evening to the sounds of a practicing Samoan choir.
There is a small, but growing, technical community in the islands - which has it's plusses: The technical community that does exist is small, active and very supportive of each other. Most Importantly, people don't yawn when you tell them that you program for a living. :)
the moment, The Hawaiian economy is economically addicted to the Military and Tourism. Without solid alternative industries, the islands will become stagnant with the transient natures of it's current economic benefactors. - The politicians of Hawaii are slowly coming to their senses about this, and are starting to listen to reason instead of to their campaign contributions.
Because of this, there has never been a better time to move your venture to Hawaii. The govmn't of the islands are actively seeking Tech Companies to move to the Islands, and provide great financial incentives to businesses wishing to migrate and to the entrepeneurs willing to build here. There has never been a better time to move your venture to "paradise."
-- Apologies to the Hawaiian Sovereignty People who may be reading this...
lack of world class cities and attractions
I don't know what Canadian cities you've been visiting...but they're obviously different from where I've been! Have you ever been to Montreal? It's like a bit of Paris (the good bits.. not the seedy nasty non-showering bits) dropped down into the heart of the country. I'd take a walk down St. Denis or Sherbrooke over New York's Fifth avenue any day. Not to mention the world-class dining, shopping, and the fabulous nightlife..the party doesn't even get STARTED here til 1 AM.
And did I forget to mention the cheap cost of living (I rent a 4 1/2 - that's a two bedroom for the non-Quebecois - for $450 a month in a prime location), amazing public transportation system, and the caché of coming from one of the most recognized places in the world.
I won't even get into Vancouver, Ottawa, Toronto, St. John's (Party town!), and all the other great spots in this country.
Other than that, I must say I agree whole-heartedly! Canada rocks as a place to live.. though the taxes do suck (almost half my bonus went to taxes this year...whimper). But I think the public health care system and low costs of just about everything else more than make up for all that.. yes the salaries are lower, but then again, where in NYC or San Fran are you going to find a decent apartment for under $500 CDN?
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
... maybe slashdot should move here. No more subscriptions!
Of course I'm kidding. Silly Americans wouldn't be able to handle the beer and the cold.
J
Plenty of Oil & Gas work, though - Programmers even get their own office at most of them... Of course this is offset by the fact your whole life is spent trying to figure out new ways to interprit seismic data... booo-ring...
This makes a common point about a lot of cities in Pennsylvania. I live in State College, none of the municipalities here have been able to pass consolidation so we're still a bunch of little governments. I live in Patton Township where my wage tax is 1%, but the borough of State College is 1.8%. One local business (Accuweather) moved to Ferguson Township to escape the borough's business taxes. (Along with building a new building a few years ago, but taxes were a factor as I understand it)
The point is that a lot of cities/municipalities have higher taxes than those nearby. Whatever you do don't move to Maryland. Not only are taxes higher there but your rights mean nothing to the state government.
The government in PA and in Pittsburgh has been talking a lot about trying to make Pittsburgh into a tech city to help make up for the problems in the steel industry. PA's state income tax is 2.8%, and sales tax is 6% on non-necessity items. No yearly personal property tax on cars and the like, altho your house will be taxed by the local government. Another poster mentioned the "Small Business Bribery Zones" that the gov't has put in place as well. Basically, you move your business into one of the development zones and pay no state taxes for 10 years. Woo.
You get the best of both worlds in the Buffalo Region. ;-).
You are within short driving distance of fine Canadian establishments (Canadian Ballet, anyone?
Good skiing country nearby.
BioInformatics center just established.
Trust me, my fellow techies, if you ever move up here, get an apartment or house within two or three minutes walk of a Tim Horton's. You will not regret it.
Are you saying there's apartments and houses in Canada that are more than two or three minutes walk from a Tim Horton's?
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
I make six figures, and the mortgage on my new 3 bedroom home is about $800 a month.
Probabally why companies like Ford have moved call centers here, and why companies like Bioware and Quicken have their main offices here.
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
I'd much rather say, "eh?" than say: "EARTHQUAKE!!" Ever since I graduated from college, I've lamented that so many of the bleeding edge technology jobs are on the west coast and I am (happily) stuck in the midwest, ultra-conservative as it is.
The fact that all of San Francisco and the Bay Area WILL be destroyed by earth quakes is a REAL reason that I haven't moved there.
If you think the destruction of the WTC hurt US economy, wait until Silicon Valley plunges into the Pacific Ocean. Maybe people over there are finally saying to themselves, "Gee.. we're on a fault here. Everything is super expensive - epsecially housing. This sucks. See ya!"
I know some folks who had a house in San Jose. They sold it for over $800,000. They moved to South Carolina, bought a house just a tad smaller for under $100,000 and are enjoying retirement with the remainder.
"Surf's up, dude!"
...eh?
Vortran out
Knowledge is like ignorance.. too much can be just as bad as not enough.
Just to pick a nit, Bioware is located in Canada because that's where the founders lived. There was no concious decision to move to Canada.
Of course, I'm also a guiness drinker.
Just to nitpick, drink more before you call yourself a guinness drinker so you can spell it right.
Another great expression:
Ni neart go Guinness!
(Guinness for Strength!)
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
I live in Houston and love it. No state icome tax, and the cost of living is really low.
Funny.
Sure they grew up here. But they didn't have to stay here, especially once they hit it big. Maybe it's something else....nah.
Please, please don't move here. It's very cold, the residents are more surly than hung-over Texan and the women are large-boned and ugly.
Oh please. Poor you for tying happiness to salary. Cry me a river.
My stress comes from the stupid requirements that are made and inept management. Actually, it's pretty much because the market asks for the impossible.
I'll admit that techies move onto management to get salaries and less stress, but hey, no wonder management in the IT industry blows so badly.
I've worked in this industry for 5 years, and I can tell you that I'd rather be a stressed worker doing what I enjoy rather than put myself in the line-of-fire that is management. I can't think of an easier way to get people to start disliking me.
>Expensive needs to off-set said Stress?
Again, sorry you equate the quest for material gain as a means of avoiding stress. Me, at the end of the day, I give the middle finger to the market, recognize that all this shit isn't that important, and abjectly refuse to comprimise my happiness for the sake of a job.
You'd be amazed at how many managers cant say a freaking thing once you've owned a code base for a year or so, and you put your foot down when your abilities are being abused like some inhuman swiss army knife. Fuck em. If their business plan can't work without me taking it up the ass, it's a lousy business plan, and they were doomed to fail from the beginning.
It's you who feels that just getting some more DVDS, or skydiving more, or whatever you seem to think is the solution for stress, doesn't seem to be work.
Money doesn't give me happiness. Doing what I enjoy doing, and not compromising my working conditions is what kicks ass. Working in inhuman conditions does not justify asking for higher wages - it just makes you a sucker for working like that.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Actually, I was born in Edmonton, raised in Fort Saskatchewan, Red Deer, and Rimbey, moved back to Edmonton and and lived there for 15 years before moving to Seattle. As for the women, that's where I met my wife, so you should watch your tongue :-)
:-)
The only reason I wouldn't move back to Edmonton is because of the cold. Here in Seattle, the magnolia tree in our courtyard started to bud yesterday
Actually, I was born in Edmonton, raised in Fort Saskatchewan, Red Deer, and Rimbey, moved back to Edmonton and and lived there for 15 years before moving to Seattle. As for the women, that's where I met my wife, so you should watch your tongue :-)
;-)
Born here. Raised here. Met wife here. Live and work here.
Not complaints here!
Great enormous gay community, widespread acceptance, far more liberal in many ways then any US city, arguably more/better nightlife then SF, equally great food, much cheaper cost of living, safer streets. Beautiful people who really appreciate the better things life has to offer. Walk down Rue St. Denis or St. Lauraunt or du Gai Village on Ste. Catherine on a warm summer night and tell me it can be any better (ok - not as great today with the snow.)
Yes there's the whole French/English issue but that's primarily political and almost never personal. In 5 years of living here in both a samll Francophone farming community and then on the East side of Montreal (Ahuntsic) I've had it brought up twice, both by drunks.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Yes, California is the most expensive state to live in, but moving to Canada is hardly an improvement. You are better off moving to a low-tax/no-tax state.
Going abroad is a big deal for a company, even if "abroad" just means to Canada. It's like Vincent Vega said in Pulp Fiction. "Everything's just a little different over there". New legal system, new patent regime, different accounting standards, blah blah blah.
From a worker's point of view, it's hard to say. I live in Seattle. I go to Vancouver pretty frequently. I think it is one of the world's great cities. Unfortunately, there's a pretty big disjoint between the cost of living and the salaries. Take housing. Vancouver property is similar in real dollar costs to Seattle, while salaries are merely similar in that a tech professional who makes US$n per year will probably also be paid C$n in Vancouver. At the same time, you will be taxed rather heavily.
A techie can make a good living in either place, but even with the quality of services in Canada (health care, education, etc.) it's hard to make the numbers add up.
and i see the "baren glacier as soon as you hit the border" misconception is still alive and well. Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and others are massive metropolatin centers with similar climate to many US cities. in Vancouver it rarely freezes and typically has winter temperatures in the mid-high 40's. (that's around 8degC... eh?)
There isn't a huge glacier at the 49th parallel? How d'y'all keep yer igloos cold all year then?
Calgary has a climate similar to Chicago I suppose. I never understood folks who lived there either. The salary:cost-of-living ratio is better in Calgary, but the problem is... you're in Calgary.
j.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, the wage tax FUCKING SUCKS. It's about a $2000 chunk out of my ass every year. My last employer didn't deduct it automatically, so I had to pay it myself quarterly. Writing a $500 check to the city every three months was like passing a kidney stone.
If moving wasn't such a huge hassle, and if I didn't already own my current house, I'd move to just outside the city limits in a heartbeat and enjoy the thousands of dollars in wage tax and car insurance savings.
~Philly
Why the coast? A colleague just sent me a miserere complaining about the snow and cold in St. Louis. Here on the coast, it's sunny and clear.
Why the coast? The air is so clean I can see three mountain ranges from my office and one of them is across some 50 miles of ocean.
Why the coast? If I walk down the street with a woman who isn't the same race as I am, I don't get a second look.
Why the coast? I was standing in a grocery store checkout line and overheard 7 different languages. With those speakers come different perspectives and that makes for some really interesting dinner conversations.
Why the coast? Did I mention the physical beauty of the place? This country is unbelievably gorgeous and varied. We've got ocean and mountains right next to each other.
Why the coast? John Steinbeck called this country Eden and he wasn't too far off the mark.
That's why the coast.
Fair enough, I always seem to typo that.
The truly ironic thing? I work in the Guinness Tower in Vancouver, BC. I shit you not.
That is absolutely hilarious man. Any job openings for a UNIX coder (C preferably, but PHP/Perl will do) -- I would give my last pint to be able to have that on my business card. At least until I went to buy more.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
I'm also a software developer born-and-raised and currently living in Louisville, KY. Businesses and people across the USA need to stop thinking of Louisville as a "hick town"--I wildly assure you that IT IS NOT. As a former resident of upstate NY, Charlotte, NC and the SF bay area, I attest that Louisville is a modern city with very upstanding people and lots of things to do for a city its size (and it isn't so small -- 1 million in the metro area!).
Louisville has vibrant arts, sports, architecture, politics, business, attractions and nightspots and a very fun two-week festival in April/May surrounding the Kentucky Derby (including "Thunder Over Louisville", the nation's largest air power and fireworks show). And if that isn't enough, the University of Louisville includes a very good school of engineering.
Of course, the most important aspect of Louisville is her people, among the friendliest you'll ever run into.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
The exodus from SF is the beginning of a larger trend. India graduates nearly 40,000 highly qualified engineers *every year*. China, probably four times that, and climbing. The Law of Lowest Wages, combined with increasing commodification of technology will drive many companies out of the US entirely within the next dozen years. Roughly 46% of our working population works directly or indirectly with technology. Think about what boardroon executives probably already considering as they make plans for future capital and physical investment. Capital is 'on the wire'. Domestic fealty just doesn't cut it for public corporations; not in a world where profit is king. There will still be strong technology innovation coming out of the U.S. for many years to come. However, much of the implementation of that innovation will not necessarily have to be performed by people here in the States. We're facing the very beginning of a huge social displacement problem. Look at the San Francisco phenomenon as a micro-trend that will soon snowball. Our domestic planners (an oxymoron?) had better start preparing for this and look for ways to either keep people fully employed, or actively interested in a slowed-down version of the 'good life', or we're looking for real trouble down the road.
Come, High Tech companies! Move to the land where nobody leaves from or goes to!
.6% (if you include the Buchanan votes from Florida that they threw in and counted as his...).
I'm talking about a city with sports teams that *almost* make it, only to screw it all up!
I'm talking about a city where race crimes are committed almost simply for ole' time's sake!
I'm talking about a city whose population hasn't moved in some 2,391 years!
I'm talking about a city who hasn't added a Congressman since the 20's!
I'm talking about the best damn city in the world -- one that can fool you with its dirty slums and its beautiful million dollar homes, with its crappy neighborhood electronics stores and its massive skyline.
I'm talking about Philadelphia. City of Brotherly Love. (Well, the brothers sure do love each other, but the white guys are starting to realize how wimpy and nerdy they are... [and I'm one of them;) ])
Ahh, Philly. A place with state-controlled failing schools and an idiot mayor, who won by
Beautiful, Philly. Where the famous Philly Cheese Steak has produced millions upon millions of added dollars... as well as millions upon millions of added pounds for the police.
Amazing Philly. Featuring one of the most shameless newspapers in the country -- who, during the Republican National Convention, used a dark, low-contrast picture of Philly's skyline that said with text, "It's been great!" -- instead of a beautiful color shot of all the red white and blue balloons falling around the then-governor.
My city -- Philly.
On second thought... stay away, High Tech firms. I LIKE my city just the way it is.
...Just thank God I live an hour away in the burbs!
The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
Oh yeah, and nobody here speaks with a drawl or says "eh".
And spuds are tasty!
-h-
I love how Canada is referred to as some rural backwater nation....
But seriously.
Isn't this what we always talk about in the tech world? Telecommuting? If a person can work from home, why can't a company work from the boonies?
The country has benefits over the city.. I once had teh opportunity to work at a high-tech startup in a beautiful small canadian town on a lake in BC.
Now... THAT was perfect. Sure, eventually the office moved to a major center for more political reasons than anything.... but it was excellent. *especially* for those with families.
No city hassles. Fishing. Community.. etcetera... and the high tech job you like.
I'm surprised no one has given one of the biggest reasons why multinationals have moved their R&D operations from the US to Canada - and that is the huge tax breaks the Canadian government makes to companies that do R&D.
Up to 40% of an engineers salary is paid by the Canadian government!!
Check out The Washington Business Journal for just one idea of why a company might want to move expensive R&D sites from the US to the great white north.
Well how about a Saint Johnner, eh?
Talk about dull towns in the maritimes... Shit even Fredericton has more entertainment qualities than Saint John. And here you either work for the Irvings or you don't work at all. Sad but true. Can't beat the cost of living though.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
#50 for economic growth in the country - I can believe it too - especially when a former unix/windows sys admin is applying for a hotel desk job and 20 people show up to apply :(. I'm sure they ended up with the best hotel desk clerk on earth - maybe not.
Just as a comparison, we're buying a newer (4 year old) house just outside of Madison, WI. It's 2200 square feet, the lot is 110'x500' (yep, damn huge lot) 3/4 of which is tree covered. We're paying $199,100 for the house and expect to pay $5000 per year property tax. Did I mention I finally get a 2 car garage? WOOHOO! A place to store motorcycles! Oh yea, there's a house attached to the garage...
Ya know, Wisconsin is overlooked by a lot of companies. Where do you think Cray is from? Yes, I know Cray is tanking. They made some dumb business moves. That doesn't mean that their tech isnt' any good though. There's a lot of smart people here with decent wages. Outside of Madison and Milwaukee, it's real cheap to live. The house I was talking about before could probably be had in La Crosse for $110k or so.
--- Think of it as evolution in action ---
I never said that Americans don't talk funny, or hear funny, for that matter. Being from the Beantown area myself, I am the first to say that we sound odd to those not in the area, and also to say that writing the Canadian "about" is difficualt to do. "Aboot" is as close as the written word can really come without a footnote.
Also, Bostoners don't say the word "car". They say the word "cah" and the rest of the nation spells it wrong.8)
Virg
the unemployment rate in Toronto was a "low" 7.5 percent, whereas it peaked at an "outrageous" 6 percent in Silicon Valley.
I have no specific knowledge about why the unemployment rate is structurally higher in Canada, but I would tend to suspect that it has more to do with Canada being more generous with welfare.
American techs might be less quick to condemn their northern counterparts if they knew how horribly the economy was managed up here....
My information is that Canada has probably the best-managed economy in the world. Not that I would expect a Canadian to believe that!