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Microsoft's Ancient History w/ Unix

NutscrapeSucks writes "The Register is running a article which discusses Microsoft's experience running their own version of UNIX, called Xenix, as their standard desktop operating system. Before they got involved with OS/2 and later NT, Microsoft considered UNIX to be the PC operating system of the future. Talks about Bill Gates running vi, difficulties with AT&T, and other interesting tidbits." There's a lot of stuff everyone knows, and a lot of stuff you probably didn't know. Worth a read.

15 of 357 comments (clear)

  1. Windows NT == VMS by quark2universe · · Score: 5, Informative

    "And through Windows NT, you can see it throughout the design. In a weak sense, it is a form of Unix."

    Actually, Windows NT was built very much like VMS, the operating system for the VAX built by DEC. David Cutler, one of the main architects for VMS, was hired by Microsoft to build Windows NT. The name Windows NT itself is one of those HAL like play on letters where each letter is the VMS letter plus 1. WNT VMS

    --

    Believe in things of which no person has ever learned
    1. Re:Windows NT == VMS by Michael+Winser · · Score: 3, Informative
      NT stands for n10 which was the intel codename for the i960 risc processor. The n10 was the first platform to run Windows NT.

      NT actually started life as OS/2 3.0, not Windows.

    2. Re:Windows NT == VMS by maggard · · Score: 5, Informative
      In the novel 2001, the joke about HAL was that H, A, L are one letter before I, B, M, so HAL was one step ahead of IBM.
      Actually Arthur C. Clarke has denied this repeatedly, loudly, and at this point irritably. He even wrote Byte Magazine a few years ago correcting their reference to this geek lore. He claims this is just one of those accidents that happens and indeed in his book "The Worlds of 2001" goes into a bit on how HAL's name actually did come about: Pretty much happenstance, it was "Athena" through most of drafts.

      IBM/HAL, Santa/Saten, its all part of a biiig plot...

      --
      I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
    3. Re:Windows NT == VMS by VAXman · · Score: 5, Informative

      VMS was hugely successful. It was the most successful minicomputer OS of all time, and made DEC filthy rich in the 80's.

      What killed VMS was not DEC, but Unix - mostly Sun. Their stuff was 10x as fast at 1/10 the price, so people bought Sun instead. DEC was never really able to adapt from the closed proprietary business model to the open commodity business model. Even with Alpha, DEC never got more than 1% of the Unix market.

    4. Re:Windows NT == VMS by Zeinfeld · · Score: 3, Informative
      What killed VMS was not DEC, but Unix - mostly Sun. Their stuff was 10x as fast at 1/10 the price, so people bought Sun instead. DEC was never really able to adapt from the closed proprietary business model to the open commodity business model

      The price performance was never quite that extreme, SPARC was about double to tripple the price performance of the equivalent VAX workstation when it first appeared.

      The thing that killed VMS was not UNIX, it was RISC. People moved to Sun in spite of UNIX, and for that matter in spite of Sun's quality control. In those days, interms of reliability SunOS was to VMS what Windows 3.1 was to AIX.

      Incidentally, DEC was a very early member of the UNIX club. The first virtual memory UNIX was developed on a VAX. It is a pity that Thomson et. al. were so determined to learn as little as possible from the design of VMS.

      In the very early years Sun attempted to license VMS. DEC refused, claiming that it could not be ported because of the dependency of VMS on a couple of fairly specialized processor instructions, like remove from head interlocked and the security ring instructions.

      The reason DEC was so far behind Sun in the first place was that their bean counters axed the PRISM project that was meant to built the successor to VAX and VMS. Dave Cutler left DEC for MSFT and vowed to force DEC to buy the O/S they could have had for free - whats more he did exactly that. When the Alpha chip appeared much later than SPARC it was named AXP or Almost Exactly Prism as insiders call it.

      WNT is not VMS but it has most of the best features of VMS and is the type of thing you might build if you were designing a sucessor to VMS but did not need to have backwards compatibility.

      There are a bunch of late VMS features that WNT is noticably lacking, in particular the transactional file system. Hopefully we may see some of that appear in OFS. What is disappointing about WNT is that many of the interesting O/S features are sumberged in low level APIs. It is possible to do VMS tricks like ASTs but you have to really know the layout of the O/S.

      Unfortunately there is no guide that compares with the Digital VMS architecture manual.

      --
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  2. a glorified email terminal by Speare · · Score: 4, Informative

    When I worked at Microsoft in the early 90s, the role of Xenix was pretty much relegated to a glorified email terminal. A few old-timer people on the teams I worked with used it, and few of those people did anything but read their email remotely on the Xenix email servers. I don't recall anyone actually running Xenix on any box within their own office.

    At no time did I get the impression that a developer at Microsoft felt that Xenix/UNIX was the future of the desktop. It was big, it was bloated, it couldn't run on then-current PCs well, nevermind the smaller machines of the mid-80s.

    Sure, maybe there were some hold-outs in groups I didn't interact with, and I was only there long past Xenix heyday, but Xenix had no chance at the desktop, really.

    --
    [ .sig file not found ]
    1. Re:a glorified email terminal by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Informative

      you are so full of Shit you stink.

      Xenix ran fine on a 386DX-35 platform supporting 10 users off of that ONE computer using Wyse 75 terminals. It supported several businesses helping with Multiple tasks in that company using that ONE computer. Excalibur was the best Business accounting/inventory/Point of Sale software on the market at that time (1992) It ran faster than anything that microsoft offered it gave you more productivity than anything that Microsoft offere'd then and NOW from your equipment and coince it was really written by a group that were outside Microsoft at the beginning, bought by them and then re-sold (SantaCruz Operation) it was never tainted with the Microsoft Style. The Only thing that sucked about Xenix was that the Xwindows system was horrible and required specalized hardware, Compiling X11 on it solved that problem. ..

      SCO Xenix was a awesome thing at the time, and I still have the origional disks and Manuals from that 386 version.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  3. Re:Unix is the future. by The+Wookie · · Score: 3, Informative

    DOS 2.0 included Unixy features like file descriptors (instead of the old FCB file control blocks), directories, and devices as files (COM1:, LPT0:, etc) that weren't present in DOS 1.0.

    Unfortunately, my memory fails as to whether this was still IBM PCDOS or MSDOS. I'm thinking by that time it was MSDOS.

  4. ATT's "failure" to properly manage UNIX by mikewas · · Score: 5, Informative

    ATT had no reason to "properly manage" UNIX. ATT's forays into areas that the FCC deemed outside of the realm of telecommunications (i.e. computer HW & SW) resulted in a a choice for ATT:
    1. retain the telecommunications monopoly but refrain from any money-making ventures outside of the telecom area
    2. become a real business, make money on anything you want, and open up competition in telecommunications.

    ATT chose choice #1 -- retain the monopoly. This was for them a sure thing. They had always managed to retain the monopoly in the past and it provided a steady source of income. Computers were new, and internally were not percieved as a consumer item.

    So at the time Bill was talking about ATT, the UNIX development/administration/lisencing was, by legal necesity, not a money-making area for ATT. UNIX was a tool to develop telecom products, the real business of ATT. Giving the technology away and managing the process "for the public good" was a means to demonstrate that it was not a money-making venture as well as a way to trumpet Bell Labs. It didn't recieve the best support from management, though, as they were focused on the money-making areas of the business.

    On the other hand, the statement that ATT didn't know what they had, was that ever true! Once they did figure it out it was too late, they were legally barred from that market untl after deregulation (nothing is forever!) -- too late!

    --

    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." --Napoleon Bonaparte
  5. Some history notes on NT's development: by Otis_INF · · Score: 5, Informative

    Slideshow: http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix-win2000/invite dtalks/lucovsky_html/.

    In there, you'll learn 'NT' was related to the first proc it was targeted to, the 860 of intel, codenamed 'N10', plus some juicy stuff about the development of NT3.1 and win2k, and some related notes to Unix and NT.

    --
    Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
  6. Re:Unix is the future. by Zeinfeld · · Score: 3, Informative
    Not to troll, but a lot of Microsoft's innovations are actually recycled ideas that've been around for years. No, really, not to troll - I'm glad they've taken certain ideas from Unix.

    But none of the 'innovations' you cite came out of UNIX. The closest one would be Kerberos, but even that was conceived from day one as being independent of the O/S. MIT has developed enough O/S to know that there is more than one.

    UNIX was not an O/S with lots of innovative features, the main innovation was the idea that most of the O/S could be written in a high level language. Most of the advances in UNIX consisted of removing unnecessary junk from Multics or ITS.

    UNIX was not the first O/S with symbolic links, it was however the first where the feature was widely used. There is even a way to create symlinks in VMS, although you have to go through an API to do it.

    --
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  7. Re:Brighten up everyone!!! by Wonko42 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually "NT" has a double meaning. Its primary meaning was "N-Ten", because Windows NT was being developed initially only for the Intel i860 chipset, which was code-named "N10". Later, when it was decided NT would run on other platforms, the term "New Technology" was used. At least, this is what I've read.

  8. Apple also had Unix on the desktop in years past by MacBoy · · Score: 3, Informative

    A/UX or Apple UNIX was Apple computer's entry into the desktop UNIX world. It ran on their 68030 and '040 based systems, but was never ported to the PowerPC when they made the move to that CPU architechture in the early 90's.

    A/UX had a nice GUI (it was from Apple after all!) which was very similar to the Macintosh GUI of the time (System 7). It had all the greatness of UNIX, including pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory, and it was even able to run most Macintosh applications without modification. Yes, you could bring up a terminal window and much around with a command line if you so pleased, but like today's Mac OS X, you never needed to. Sadly Apple only marketted it to corporate and higher-education users, so it never caught on and was forgotten.

  9. Re:Brighten up everyone!!! by Umanity · · Score: 3, Informative
    This is a brilliant programmer speaking...

    He speaks before he knows... People like this give software engineers bad names. It is so obvious he hasn't looked at the Unix API... The wait() call is a central part of Unixes, since day one. Signals, semaphores, mutexes, they are used abundantly in Unixes. Whoever posted this should be tarred and feathered..

    I program both Windows and Unix, and have written OS Wrappers which allow me to port my applications between OS's. Everything you can do in Windows OS's can be done in Unix. Threads, Processes, Semaphores, Mutexes, Spin-Locks, Signals, memory maps, pipes, timers, etc. To make assertions that Windows uses WaitForObject, etc. is a ridiculous one. I would use semaphores or mutexes to co-ordinate two threads.

    Personally I find the Unix OS much more straight forward and easier to design for. Microsoft keeps on making programming more and more esoteric, more difficult to understand. I use COM all over the place, and have started to port COM to Linux. It is nice, but it is not anything new, it is basically dynamic libraries with a known exported interface which exports class factories. I write low-level, often device drivers, or interfaces to video capture devices for DVD burning software. I use DirectShow which is a layer on COM. I find COM beneficial for some things and think Linux needs a similar framework.

    --

    Michael A. Uman
    Sr Software Engineer
    softwaremagic.net

  10. Re:Cut N Paste? by MAXOMENOS · · Score: 4, Informative
    I've always found these handy:
    • dd and yy to cut and copy, respectively
    • p to paste
    • J (note caps) to append the next line to the end of the present line
    • U (note caps) to undo the last command.
    • :1,$ sub /oldphrase/newphrase/ to replace oldphrase with newphrase throughout a document
    • :syntax on with VIM, for syntax highlighting
    • :cd to change current working directory
    • :e! file to edit file file
    • CTRL-W n to create a split window...sometimes useful if you're writing code and want to have the header file right in front of you.
    • CTRL-W w to switch from one split window to another
    • :set sw=num and :set softtabstop=num to set how far your tab key indents (in spaces). I use four spaces, and this is set automatically by putting these lines in my .vimrc and .gvimrc files.
    • /phrase to search forward for phrase phrase; / alone to search again for that same phrase. ? searches backwards.

    That's just off the top of my head. Things beside these I can usually find in New Riders' book Vi IMproved -- Vim

    Good luck. I use VIM almost exclusively for my editing needs; over the last ten years it has been my constant companion through thick and thin. I wouldn't work without it.