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Apple Cuts Off Under-18 Darwin Developer

Posted by pudge on from the kids-are-sooo-cuuute dept.

Crispyking writes "Finlay Dobbie has been a leading contributor to the Darwin project, most notably helping track down the infamous PPP-hang bug. He's been nominated to become a Darwin contributor (which comes with limited check-in privileges) but when going through the process, Apple found out he's under 18 years old, and not only refused to let him be a contributor to this 'open source' project, but canceled his Apple Developer Connection membership (which gives him download access to the source code) on the grounds that because he's under 18, he can't be legally bound to the small-print agreement." Update: 03/26 00:26 GMT by P : Finlay wrote in email that he wasn't getting the Darwin source through his ADC account, but through a third party development project, which he resigned from as a result of all the red tape and the ADC account being disabled.

23 of 710 comments (clear)

  1. So . . by SanLouBlues · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They're throwing away his donated code then right?

    1. Re:So . . by maroberts · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They're throwing away his donated code then right?

      Actually you may have a point; if they use code that he's hitherto submitted and now recognise he's not bound by the license then by rights the implicit agreement with which he gave them the code may also be invalid [i.e. assignment of copyright!]

      --

      Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
      Karma: Chameleon

    2. Re:So . . by letxa2000 · · Score: 5, Informative
      A minor can sign a contract and there is nothing illegal about a minor signing a contract or an adult entering into a contract with a minor.

      The problem is, if they ever had to enforce the terms a minor almost always has the right to "disaffirm" the contract. A contract entered into with a minor can give you a framework of the agreement, and the adult party is bound to it--but the minor may simply disaffirm the contract on the basis that he is a minor.

      Hmm, I wonder what the implications of this are for a minor buying--ahem, licensing a Microsoft product. Since they are minors they can disaffirm the "contract" entirely... Perhaps I'll have to have kids buy my software in the future for me. :grin:

    3. Re:So . . by kevinank · · Score: 5, Informative
      FWIW, the US legal term for a youth who is legally recognized as an adult is "Emancipation". There is a pretty good write-up on the legal meaning here.
      Emancipation is a legal process in which a minor (a person under 18) petitions the court to have herself declared a legal adult. Emancipation laws vary from state to state, but generally emancipation ends the parents= legal duty to support the minor, and also ends the parents= right to make decisions about the minor=s residence, education, health care, and to control the minor=s conduct. However, it does not mean that the minor is the same as an adult for all purposes (for example, voting and alcohol-purchase age laws are not affected by emancipation). The extent to which an emancipated minor is treated as an adult varies from state to state, but emancipated minors generally can enter into binding contracts, sue and be sued, establish a residence, and consent to medical treatment on the same basis as adults.
      --
      LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
  2. Right...sort of... by Cirrocco · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apple is technically within their rights here, and it's even (arguably) a good idea. It's a shame that he can't contribute, but Apple needs to protect themselves from liability. Of course, they could accept his contributions via a proxy, I believe, and thus allow him his contributions. Still, it's a shame that we have to do this nowadays...

    --
    Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
  3. Child labor too, perhaps? by fgodfrey · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Apple probably has more to think about here than just "can this guy be held to the click-wrap license". There are laws in various states regulating labor for people under the age of 18. I know I had "fun" with this when I worked paid theater shows in high school. Since Apple is going to take this and sell it, couldn't his work be considered "child labor"?


    This sounds like such a boneheaded descision, though, that it must have come from their legal department.

    --
    Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
    1. Re:Child labor too, perhaps? by fgodfrey · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Well, while it is blatently obvious to you and I that hobbyist programming is not labor, it may not be so obvious to a judge when presented as "Apple is now shipping a product on which they are trying to make a profit that includes code that was written for Apple by a 15 year old". I can definetly see someone interpreting that as "labor". Also, I believe that Apple could still get in trouble even if both the kid and his parents agreed that it was not labor.

      The building model planes part doesn't apply unless you plan on selling them for profit after they are built and don't conform to the laws on number of hours worked at certain times, etc.

      --
      Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
  4. The problem isn't with Apple by lw54 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    because he's under 18, he can't be legally bound to the small-print agreement.

    The problem isn't with Apple. It's with the US legal system. I've never been a fan of Apple but don't punish them for something that isn't their fault. Instead of griping to Apple, gripe to your congressional representatives on how current laws are stifling our countries competitiveness on a global scale.

  5. The 18 thing is strange.. by Havokmon · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Only in America are students considered to have zero rights, yet all of a sudden, you turn 18, and having sex with a classmate can put you in jail.. (In WI, you'd be branded a child-molester, and the police would notify any new neighborhoods you want to move to.)

    He could be tried for Murder as an adult, but can't program for a big company?

    Are there any exceptions that are POSITIVE?

    --
    "I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
    1. Re:The 18 thing is strange.. by praedor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Time to bring the non-scientifically adept up to speed vs the legal system. The legal system of ANY country is not about reality or facts or science. For such things as driving age, age of consent, voting, etc, the legal systems all must come to a compromise vs reality when it comes to these things. First, many laws were put on the books before most of modern science properly existed, and WELL before any real developmental biology was worked out. That, plus the fact that lifespans were shorter in the past, on average, than today and you find you need to make adjustments.


      If you wanted the legal system to be completely self-consistent and based on reality, then EVERY individual would have to go through a battery of biological and psychological testing to give the legal system an idea as to your level of emotional development and judgement level. Some few people would gain full legal rights at 20, others at 25, and so forth, due to natural biological and developmental variation. This is clearly not the way we can reasonably expect it to go so we need to compromise and provide for graduated rights.


      In case you haven't noticed lately, since it is a FACT that teenage drivers are the most dangerous people on the streets, bar none, many states are beginning to change the laws such that even 16 year-olds are NOT allowed to drive freely and at will. They are receiving restricted driver's licenses, subject to stricter review, requiring that you gradually develop into a good driver with full driving priviledges. Expect this to spread to more and more states rather than remain restricted to a handful of vanguard states.


      Many of you are looking at this backwards, as if the law is reality and reality isn't. The law has very little to do with reality. For instance, I would go so far as to say that countries in which the age of consent is so low (did someone mention 12?) are stupidly WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG. Not because of some moral qualms on my part, but because of developmental biological FACTS. Sex is NOT harmless emotionally nor physically. It DOES have consequences that go beyond whether or not one gets preggers. A 12-year-old is in no way, shape, or form emotionally mature. They are also strongly lacking in judgement. They, as a matter of fact, cannot make thoughtful, logical, mature, reasoned decisions because the faculties required for such are not fully developed yet.


      I think we could make the laws more properly fit with biological and psychological reality by creating graduated rights, but instead of basing it on testing everyone, you go with the average rate of development for humans. Thus, 15 year olds would have a subset of rights, 20 year olds a larger collection of rights, and then 25 year olds the full set of adult rights...because by 25 MOST people have fully developed "equipment" to allow for full, clear judgement. Of course this isn't perfect, but again, the laws are more about wierd compromises rather than reality.


      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
  6. THIS IS NOT APPLE's DECISION TO MAKE! by bbum · · Score: 5, Informative

    (I wrote this at http://radio.weblogs.com/0100490/)

    Finlay Dobbie published an article about how Apple effectively does not allow minors-- folks under 18-- to participate in the Apple Developer Program or contribute changes to the Darwin project.

    Unfortunately, Apple's policy is a reflection of the legal status of minors within the US. The policy is largely out of Apple's control!

    The problem stems from the whole COPA/COPPA [Children's Online Protection Act which morphed into Children's Online Privacy Protection Act or something like that] related set of laws.

    I actually have a bunch of pertinent technical experience related to COPA/COPPA in that CodeFab built much of the back end engine used by the www.noggin.com site including the editorial tools used to manage content produced by minors.

    Basically, if you are under 18, you are deemed a minor and you do not have the legal authority to sign contracts, cannot publish or contribute content that falls under another party's copyright/ownership, and are otherwise severely restricted in a legal fashion.

    In other words, Apple cannot directly allow you to participate either as a Darwin contributor or as an ADC member because there is no legal way for you to effectively 'sign' the contracts required to be a member.

    While Apple could extend the program such that your parents or legal guardians could give permission for your participation-- effectively signing for you-- that would not actually be enough for you to participate in the programs. In particular, for content produced by a minor to be published in a forum visible to others, several criteria must be met:

    Parental consent must be obtained at least once.

    Every piece of content must be reviewed prior to being made available within a forum outside of the company that effectively 'owns' the content (in this case, Apple).

    If the parent's ever rescind the permission to use content, it must be possible to effectively "unpublish" the content. Imagine the implications within a CVS repository of, say, having to remove the changes in version 1.5 of a file that is now at revision 1.24...?

    When a piece of content produced by a minor is actually published, it must be published in a fashion that effectively hides the identity of the source. This part is fairly fuzzy in that it is hard to hide identity when a username is the user's actual name... but the law was not exactly created by folks totally familiar with technology.

    The bottom line is that Apple's -- and other companies -- hands are tied in this. They would have to put forth a tremendous amount of effort to make it possible for minors to participate. Even then, a minor could not participate in the full fashion and there is still implied liability.

    If you are in this position, your best bet is to have a parent/guardian sign up for the ADC account. As far as Darwin contributions are concerned, it will likely have to be done through some other resource who is of majority age.

  7. Re:What about EULAs? by Stonehand · · Score: 5, Informative

    No. The EULA is the only thing that grants him any rights to use the software; if it's invalidated by his age, he has no rights regarding it except, perhaps, to sell it under the first-sale doctrine.

    --
    Only the dead have seen the end of war.
  8. Re:Parents or something by JabberWokky · · Score: 5, Interesting
    In Florida, it just requires you to take your kid to the court house and sign some forms.

    Specifically, it can even be used (in Florida) to only apply to a particular contract, a copy of which is included with the forms. It came up when we were fighting the curfew laws here (my little brother, who is a US citizen, was the first person in North Palm Beach to get hit with them - the judge threw out the case, calling the law "ridiculous". Gotta love the three branch system).

    --
    Evan

    --
    "$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
  9. Re:What about EULAs? by youngsd · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am a lawyer, but what I'm about to say is not legal advice. I would need to look at specific statutes and case law to come up with a specific answer -- this is just off the top of my head.

    In most states, a contract entered into by a minor is voidable by the minor, rather than void. That means that the minor can (before reaching the age of majority, I believe) decide to declare the contract void, and then it is as if the contract had never been entered into. This doesn't apply to certain contracts, such as purchases of "necessaries".

    So, without having looked at how this may have been applied with respect to licenses, my guess would be that a minor could declare a EULA that has been agreed to as "void". But what does that get you? Using the software without a license would likely constitute copyright infringement, and being a minor doesn't help you there. No EULA means no license, so use of the software may be off limits.

    Remember, the EULA is not required to make it illegal to make copies of software for friends -- copyright does that all by itself. The only reasonable purposes for EULAs that I've ever heard of are warranty disclaimers, limitation of liability, and no-reverse-engineering clauses. Copyright law gives the publisher everything else they need.

    Of course, if anyone has any idea what the actual case law is with regard to minors and EULAs, they should pipe up, as I may very well be wrong. (Have I covered myself enough?)

    -Steve

    --
    Democracy is a poor substitute for liberty.
  10. About Apple's Policy by zachlipton · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm currently 13 years old and am an active part of the Mozilla project. I also have an Apple ADC membership, so this is my official notice to Apple: Take my ADC membership away if you want my username is zachlipton!

    I realize that not everything is Apple's fault, it is just as much our legal system and our general philosophy of how we treat the next generation.

    In my involvement with opensource, the only times that I have ever been descriminated against my age was http://www.advogato.org/article/331.html (a total and complete mess) and by various run-ins with child labor laws (I'll get to those in a minute).

    Creating policies like this hurts opensource and kids in general. Having to lie about your age to get a Yahoo email account is stupid and pointless. I know several very gifted and talented hackers, people writing the backend code for perl6, or working to make Mozilla/Netscape Composer just a little bit better who have done an incredible service to the community.

    Below is a bit of a rant on child labor laws that I wrote in October of last year:

    Also, and perhaps more importantly, how do the child labor laws which were created to protect kids from being chained to looms for hours making rugs or soccer balls apply today in the real world. I can't tell you how many stories I have heard (and experienced several personally) where kids have been turned away from great experiences because of these laws. Several years ago, I was set to TA at a tech camp that my school was running during the summer, only to find that I couldn't until I was 15 and only then with a work permit. About 8-10 months ago, I got a contract offer (by email) and a possible offer of full-time work from collabnet to do work for them with the Bugzilla bug-tracking system which I am a developer with. Of course, this offer was quickly dispensed with after I told them that I was 12 years old :) These kids of life-changing experiences are being blocked from kids as a result of laws intended to prevent child labor. This isn't an issue of my family being poor and needing to sell my soul to Silicon Valley so that they can eat. This is my wanting to do and learn more, something which isn't possible with a class on a college campus on java or web design.

    Internships are too rare, already struggling .com's can't afford to spend money (even though the intern is unpaid) on someone who will work mainly part-time and needs a full set of computers, software, etc and requires everyone else in the company to spend time to get the intern up to speed. Besides, who wants to hire a 13-year old? Even if they do, I don't think that they can without violating the child labor laws.

    What can we do to make the opensource community and the Internet at large a place where kids are welcome? Everyone talks about making the Internet _safe_ for kids, but don't we really have to do even more than that?

    1. Re:About Apple's Policy by 0xbaadf00d · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have to disagree with you about child labor laws. Why on earth would you want to have a full time job at 12 years old. You may have a higher IQ and be more intelligent than your average 12 year old, but you're still 12. You're a kid. You need to get out and do things that other kids your age do. You'll have plenty of time to slave away behind a desk when you're older. Get out now and enjoy your youth. These laws were created to protect children exactly like you!

  11. New Web Site by pgpckt · · Score: 5, Funny

    BEGIN MOCKING TONE

    Welcome to the new Apple Teen Coder Site! Watch our barely legal teens respond to your commands! These young teens can code in PERL, Java, and even go down and dirty with all the C varients. Watch Our barely 18 teens sign NDAs on GPLed software. Download the movies to your Apple and IPod. Watch them as they help evolve Darwin!

    --
    Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
  12. Re:What about EULAs? by ChaosDiscordSimple · · Score: 5, Interesting
    No. The EULA is the only thing that grants him any rights to use the software; if it's invalidated by his age, he has no rights regarding it except, perhaps, to sell it under the first-sale doctrine.

    The claim that you have no rights to use software if you don't agree to the EULA is still being debated and has not been well tested in court. I certainly don't need any sort of EULA for other copyright protected works I purchase (music on tape, record, or CD; books; magazines; movies on videotape or DVD; console video games; arcade games; sheet music; etc). Copyright only restricts the right to make and distribute copies. Personal use (including copies for personal use) has never required any sort license agreement. The claim that installation or copying into RAM to run software represents some sort of restricted copying is as silly as claiming that making a tape copy of a CD to listen to in the car is restricted. So why is computer software somehow different?

    Don't buy into the software industries claim that you have no rights to a product you purchase. It's on shaky legal ground and they know it. There is no reason for citizens to let them extend copyright in this new way without a fight.

  13. Give Apple a Break... by SerpentMage · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously, while I agree that it sucks that the guy cannot submit code, Apple's hands are bound. Apple is a corporation that has a board, shareholders, etc. And while they would like to do otherwise it simply is NOT POSSIBLE.

    I hope at least that they give him a free computer or something like that. Show him some appreciation...

    --

    "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
    "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
  14. The Apple sweatshop by fmaxwell · · Score: 5, Funny
    "Here with a News 7 exclusive is Senior Technology Reporter Jim Wright."

    "Thank you Tom. It has just been revealed that Apple Computer, the corporate giant that manufactures the Macintosh computer line, has been using unpaid child labor to create the "operating system" that powers their successful computers. For those not familiar with the term, an operating system is a computer file that contains computer program instructions. These computer program instructions allow the computer system to operate -- hence the name "operating system."

    According to sources close to the case, young Finlay Dobbie, has worked for hundreds of hours for Apple computer yet never received any pay. Apple, instead, has formed a cult-like group that refer to themselves as the "Open Source Movement." This group convinced Finlay and many others to spend countless hours writing and improving computer programs for Apple's operating system -- which Apple then sells at a tremendous profit.

    When Finlay was released from the group, he staggered outside, pale, gaunt, and squinting his young eyes that have not seen sunlight in many months. I had trouble understanding what he was muttering exept for "pee, pee, pee" leaving this reporter wondering if Finlay's keepers have even been denying him the right to use a restroom.

    Sources at Apple computer refused to return questions, stating that it was a matter being handled by their legal department.

    Tom, back to you.
  15. Re:When Will We Learn!? by bnenning · · Score: 5, Informative
    The parts that are open are the components that were open to start with. It's tantamount to theivery ... considering Apple gives nothing back to the community.>


    B******t. Apple has released lots of their own code. Just off the top of my head there's CoreFoundation, OpenPlay, Darwin Streaming Server, NetInfo, and their Objective-C runtime. They also actively contribute to projects like apache and gcc. Yes, they're a corporation, and yes, they're trying to make money. That does not mean their interests are automatically opposed to yours.

    --
    How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
  16. I encountered this as well by EvlG · · Score: 5, Informative

    I encountered this as well when working on Final Doom, a community doom add-on purchased and distributed by id Software. I was a leading contributor to the project, but was 15 at the time of the sale.

    The solution was for my parents to sign the agreement with me as well. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know why this was acceptable to id, but perhaps something like this would work for Apple as well, in this case?

  17. Wow. Talk about your cutting-edge journalism. by softsign · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, 3 hours after you posted the story, after ~600 /.-ers have sounded off against Apple, after a few other stories to grab attention have piled up, and at the end of the business day you finally realize that maybe you should occasionally do some research.

    The reason? It turns out this kid's rant against Apple was missing one important detail... The one where we learn he was being provided developer access by someone who was violating a legally binding agreement. Maybe that's why Apple went all heavy-handed and cut off this developer's account? Oops.

    I feel sorry for the kid if he wants to hack Darwin and Apple won't let him contribute his code back. I don't feel sorry for the kid (or his co-conspirators) for doing an end-run around Apple's contracts and getting burned. Welcome to the real world - you better get used to it.