Selling Your Wireless Traffic to Passers-By

An anonymous reader submitted a bit about a company called Joltage who wants to make it so that home and business users can make a few bucks by selling their excess bandwidth to people who just happen to be in the neighborhood. Besides the obvious security issues, and the serious lack of coverage once you get out of metropolitan areas, this could be seriously cool.

Comments

License Agreement Problems

[isa-kuruption]

Most broadband providers (cable, dsl...) have license agreements forbidding the reselling of bandwidth to people other than in the household for which the line was subscribed. Therefore, this would be illegal.

Excess Bandwidth?...

[Jaysyn]

...there is no such thing is there?

Jaysyn

Wireless Network Can Be 100% Safe

[PhysicsGenius]

The IT professionals among us are rightly concerned about software security implementations, especially from a well-known company in Washington State. The even more knowledgeable are concerned about the protocols themselves. This concern is 10 times greater when the network data is whizzing through the air for anyone to intercept. Luckily I've had an idea that may prove fruitful as a first line of defense against tactics such as "war driving".

Despite the catchy slogan, sometimes obscurity can provide a small measure of security. The first step in securing wireless networks should be making the transmissions uninterceptable by hackers. Therefore I would like to invoke the concept of "guided wavefronts". What you do is you provide a contained medium that is impervious to casual break-ins within which the signal can propagate.

The scheme could prove bulky, so I propose that the contained medium should be made of some material that will conduct an electric charge quite well, such as metal. If this is done I suspect the guided wavefront containers could be made as small as 1/8"-1/4" in diameter. Also, there will be a certain amount of secondary leakage because of electromagnetic radiation produced by the contained signal, but making the container out of some kind of shielding matter would solve this issue.

I haven't seen anything like this concept on the market but it seems like a good idea. How come nobody is working on it?

Not quite a repeat

[GeorgeH]

Sounds a lot like what the guys at Sputnik are doing.

are you liable?

[Kizzle]

What happens when someone starts looking up kiddie porn on your connection? Are you liable?

Re:are you liable?

[Raetsel]

I would hope that authorities would be able to discern that you -- even though it was your connection -- were not the cause.

Since Joltage has an authentication & billing system in place, it would be relatively easy to associate a Joltage Provider (the person who's running that particular access point) with the Joltage User (the one who broke the law).

It raises a good question though -- what kind of (browsing | usage) information is Joltage collecting on its' users? What exactly is their software capable of, and (going even further...) is it going to spy on the Joltage "Providers"?

Great...

[Mister Transistor]

New term coinage: War Spamming!

Just what I want - to host a random spammer on my home LAN, and be the tracepoint of whatever this person wants to send out on the net. Seriously, if this "guest" wants to send stuff to deaththreats@whitehouse.gov, I'd be the target of an anal investigation by the NSA and the USSS at the very least.

Seems similar...

[JordanH]

To sputnik, previously covered on here on Slashdot.

I'm not sure of what exactly are the differences between the two. Sputnik seems to have more information on their pages about the architecture, but they could be very similar, from what I'm reading.

If they are similar, this is one industry that's already in need of a shakeout. I imagine the real value of something like this being in availability and different systems don't help that much.

AUP Problems

[Raetsel]

Serious problem... Joltage wants to encourage people by paying them to extend their network. Many of the benefits, none of the work... nice idea.

The problem is that most end-user DSL (and all consumer cablemodem that I've seen!) Acceptable Use Policies explicitly prohibit reselling the service!

I'm signed up with a Washington State DSL ISP that has been incredible --

1. They got me installed when Verizon said I wasn't in a servicable area
2. I have their SO/HO level of service
3. I can run servers
4. I can host my own domain (two, actually!)
5. I can NAT and firewall to my heart's content
6. I don't have to deal with PPPoE (straight bridge config)
7. I get 5 IPs...

   (Can you tell I like this company?)

But even with all this freedom, I am still not allowed to re-sell access. I run an 802.11a access point, and it's NAT'd off on its' own -- anyone can connect... but I am contractually prohibited from profiting from it.

Personally, I don't think Blarg would have kittens over this. They're not "like that." Object, yes... charge me more, yes. Call in the National Guard... no. However, I can see other ISPs (Comcast comes to mind, with their NAT inquisition) that will scream that this is the end of the world.

This will Never Fly

[dbretton]

For 1 simple reason: Terms of Service (TOS) Agreements.

If someone picks up my wireless service and uses it for any length of time, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

The user would need to, at the very least, be FORCED to sign (or at least click) a TOS agreement before using the service.

I can see Johnny Cochran now:

If he did not click, you must acquit!

-D

Security issues destroy ideas like this

[treat]

The security issues of allowing random anonymous people access to an internet connection that is in your name are quite overwhelming. Consider the wide range of things that could be done that would bring the full force of the law down upon you. From fraud to illegal images to death threats against well-known individuals. The police would not accept as a defense that you allow people who you don't know access to your network. You will surely be arrested, which means you will probably lose your job - depending on your employer and of course whether you are released on bail. You might get off on a trial, especially if the search of your home and your computers turns up no evidence against you. If you're lucky, you will get your eqipment back in a timely fashion after your acquital. This is if you get acquited - the details of the case, how much the police/FBI want to get you, and whether they find anything else suspicious on your machines will decide this. You don't have to be charged with anything they find for it to be used as evidence against you - something as simple as an archive of every Phrack - or even a single issue - would weigh heavily against you.

Until this issue is worked out, it does not make sense to make a wireless internet-connected network publicly accessible if you are just an individual.

I don't think people feel like paying :)

[LWolenczak]

I don't think people feel like paying... I just noticed this morning, that somebody near by is trying to get dhcp addies from my internal dmz firewall... also seems that their is another ap that has been assoiated with my ap. Welp, once I hunt down this person who broke my wep key, I guess its time to be extra paranoid again.

BTW, its not Illegal to resell your cable/home dsl bandwidth, its just in violation of the contract.

This is ridiculous

[Anomolous Cow Herd]

OK, let's pretend for a moment that reselling your bandwidth isn't in violation of your broadband provider's AUP. Even then, you have to consider that these providers rely on very thin margins to stay in business. They can stay ahead of the game by counting on the fact that not everyone will be utilizing all of their bandwidth at the same time. If you have people reselling all their idle bandwidth to other people, the link at the ISP will be overwhelmed and it will result in bad service for all parties involved. Next step? The only broadband ISP in your town goes out of business. Wow, isn't biting the hand that feeds you great?

I'm disgusted by this overwhelming sense of entitlement displayed by many in the Slashdot readership in the comments sections. Some of you believe that just because you pay a (very reasonable, flat-rate) fee for network access, email and news, you have a license to use all your bandwidth, all the time in any manner that you please. It's just plain bad manners, and I'm sure that it wouldn't have been tolerated in the internet days of yore when bandwidth and system resources were hard to come by.

Hint: the reason that @Home and its descendents won't let you use IPSec or run servers on their network is that it's their network! Either pay more for better service (like a T1) or rip off some other provider's bandwidth.

Re:This is ridiculous

[NewIntellectual]

You hit the nail on the head. What people have today on their cable modems or DSL lines is really PEAK bandwidth capability. Does it really take a genius to see that if every cable or DSL line tried to run at maximum speed that no provider in the world could handle it? It's a matter of statistics. As you noted, all that would happen would be lousy service for everyone (this in fact already happens in areas where cable modem nodes are overly subscribed.)
A useful analogy would be to imagine a bunch of firehoses hooked up to a water pump that can move 100 amount of gallons per minute. Let's say each hose can move 10 gallons of water per minute. People have valves that let them turn it on and off at will. Let's say there are 500 hoses hooked up. This may still provide acceptable water flow on as "as needed basis" if usage is bursty, but turn them all on and you aren't going to get 5000 gallons per minute aggregate water flow: You're going to get what the pump can move, 100 gallons/minute, aggregately. Or in other words, given equal resistance among the hoses, 1/5 gallon of water per minute flowing from each.

Terms of Service

[sourcehunter]

I skimmed the TOS and found some interesting notes.

You may be asked from time to time to provide marketing support as a condition for your continued participation in the Joltage Network. Such marketing support may include posting postcards, signage, stickers etc. on your premises and including Joltage's logo on your marketing material.

So, if I'm a business, and I have setup a Joltage system, I can be required to put their logo in my marketing propoganda if I want to remain a Joltage "service provider"? Yuck.

Re:Slashdot naievete strikes again

[einhverfr]

GIVING STUFF AWAY FOR FREE IS NOT A VALID BUSINESS MODEL

I completely agree. Which is why Microsoft is making a serious mistake by giving away Internet Explorer. I mean, really! They re JUST GIVING IT AWAY FOR FREE! Sure, they might underprice their competitors, but really, where is that going to get you? They will have to charge more for their other products and services by subsidising that development.

(Sorta similar about what they say about Red Hat).

Actually, the main problem here would be if you resell or give away excess bandwidth, what ends up happening is that the ISP has to rent more bandwidth, thus driving up your costs. Don't forget that bandwidth is extremely expensive, and the only reason why you don't have to pay for it is because you are not using it all constantly, so the same bandwith gets sold over and over.

The problem is not one of business model but of economics of scarce resources.

Ultimately...

[Restil]

The best option if this is a service people would actually desire, is to convince the majority of neighborhoods to wire themselves up with high speed ethernet, making each subdivision one high speed local area network, then feed a few T1 lines into the area for upstream (add more as needed) and split the costs over the entire neighborhood. Then have wireless access points scattered throughout. then simply exchange services with other neighborhoods. They're allowed to access yours if you're allowed to access theirs, and you could cover an entire city this way with wireless and it costs nobody anything extra, so long as the user has their home wired SOMEWHERE.

-Restil

It's time to start thinking bigger

[Crag]

I saw a few comments at threshold 4 saying this would be against the Acceptable Use Policy of a lot of providers, and that it would be better to get dedicated bandwidth (a T1) to do this.

Well, how about it? How much is a T1 these days? Could this pay for itself, or even compete with DSL?

I'm used to seeing full T1s sell for around $1k a month. I would have to recover around $1000 to be breaking even. I'm in downtown Seattle, so I think if this idea took off I'd have a rich pool of potential drive-by customers, but I'd also have a lot of coffee house and bar customers. There are about a dozen bars and coffee houses within 2000 feet of my apartment.

The Joltage site is a little sketchy about financial details, but their hourly rate is $2. They also say that the "hot spot" (me in this case) gets half of the revenue. That means I'd have to accumulate 1000 hours a month combined to recoup the $1000 a month I'd be paying for my T1. If 20 users consistantly used my net for 2.5 hours per business day (of which there are aprox 20 in a month), it would work. Is this realistic?

Right now I don't think it is. All the customers who might be interested already have solutions in place. The only way this could take off would be if they signed up people who already have bandwidth they can give away and who won't suffer if noone uses them. There are a few internet caffes around here who might be interested since they already have net AND they already re-sell it to their existing customers. The overhead would be a little lower for them and it could attract more customers. This project looks tenuous at best.

I wish them luck.

More trouble then it's worth

[interstellar_donkey]

I keep my WAP open and very public. Number one because it's cool, and number two because it keeps me on my toes security wise.

At best I get 2-3 people connecting in a given day. Even if the location was heavily advertised, I doubt I'd see more then 10.

The money I'd make through this would'nt be worth the time and energy to collect income, the system resources on my machine to keep proper accounting, or the loss of helping to build free wireless networks.

I keep my WAP open so folks at the the bar down the street can get online. I wish everyone had that attidude.