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Simulating Societies

blamanj writes "Most of us were exposed fairly early to Conway's game of Life. A few simple rules produce a fascinating variety of behavior. Now, it appears that similar simulations can predict the behavior of populations and human societies."

23 of 231 comments (clear)

  1. One word by nagora · · Score: 4, Funny

    Psychohistory!

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    1. Re:One word by Seska · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, It's all fun and games until the Mule shows up.

  2. Once again Pr1me history.. by popeydotcom · · Score: 3, Funny

    I had to write a "Life" program for the Pr1me as part of a college project years ago. It was ok when run on a VDU, but some fool ran it on a teletype... one box of paper later.. it was turned off.

  3. So what? by SkyLeach · · Score: 3, Funny

    Preachers (albeit self-inflated ones), Theologians, Prophets and madmen have been doing that for years, albeit with little success.

    The primary problem is that the raw data cannot predict the movement of society, so therefor conjecture must be used. The conjecture is based on a hypothesis which is based on one of the obove basic viewpoints: religion vs. lack-thereof, pessimissm vs. optimism and basic intelligence of the average human vs. lack-thereof.

    Unless the person who writes the simulation is a prophet or exceptionally gifted, the software will be as flawed as any other model.

    --
    My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so :-p
  4. Multiagent Systems by mellifluous · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This article is really describing modeling using multiagent systems. Though very simple multiagent systems may resemble cellular automata (such as Conway's Life), they are not the same thing. Though they have been described in very convenient graphical representations using grids in the article, agents can model more complex behavior and need not be determinisitic (i.e. they may have a random element).

    Another way to look at it is that cellular automata like Life use a single deterministic rule to govern the whole system. Agent-based systems, on the other hand, model goal-oriented behavior of the individual objects.

    Again, Conway's game can be viewed as a very special case of an simple agent system, but the spirit of what is being done with agent systems is typically more involved. Comparing these systems to Conway's game of Life may create an incorrect impression for those not familiar with agent programming.

  5. Worked with these guys in college by XDG · · Score: 4, Informative
    I worked with Epstein and Axtell in college. The author's description of them is spot on, and they are both fantastic people.

    If you found this article interesting, their book is a great exposition of their early work with emergent behaviors. You can find it at Amazon here:

    Growing Artificial Societies

    There is a similar article on complexity and emergent behavior in the latest Harvard Business Review.

    -XDG

  6. Uh... Police State? by Aix · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The corruption/honesty simulation is very interesting, and they make a big deal about how everyone "turns blue" at the end, in other words, the whole society turns honest. The problem is that, if you look, there is a band of red dots right above the blue ones, which means that there were a huge number of "arrests" right before everyone "became honest." I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot like communism or the Taliban or Pat Robertson, or any number of other totalitarian situations. "If we just threaten to throw everyone in jail, everyone will become honest!"


    Hmmm... So the simulation is accurate, but I would hypothesize that it does not show that a free society will trend towards "honesty."

  7. Hari Seldon by skankbot · · Score: 3, Funny

    The "Foundation" series by Issac Azimov never really seemed too far fetched to me. The ability of dedicated mathematicians to predict the course of large enough groups of human beings seemed to me to be perfectly reasonable, given enough variables and a population size that minimizes the chance for really unique/aberant behaviours. Now we have the computing power to back it all up.

    For those of you who will counter that I'm neglecting the point of the Second Foundation manipulating things... don't spoil it for me. Seldon still had to get at least the first several decades right you know.

    1. Re:Hari Seldon by sphealey · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The "Foundation" series by Issac Azimov never really seemed too far fetched to me. The ability of dedicated mathematicians to predict the course of large enough groups of human beings seemed to me to be perfectly reasonable, given enough variables and a population size that minimizes the chance for really unique/aberant behaviours. Now we have the computing power to back it all up.
      Lack of computing power hasn't been a problem for a long time - I wrote simulations like this on a VAX in the early 80's.

      The problems lie elsewhere. Two that come to mind quickly are (1) lack of agreed upon factual data to use as the basis of the hypotheses. Do people with green skin have more or fewer babies out of wedlock than people with orange skin, and has this number increased or decreased over the last 10 years? Even in the US, with the Census data and tremendous amounts of market research, there are no agreed-upon answers to fundamental questions of data. Plenty of Newtons but no Kepler.

      (2) None of these models are reversible. Put in a starting point of today's conditions, set the time increment to -1, and run the simulation backwards for 100 years. What comes out will be nothing like the world as it actually was in 1900. If we can't accuratly predict what happened in the past, how can we have any belief that the models tell us anything meaningful about the future?

      sPh

    2. Re:Hari Seldon by fwc · · Score: 4, Interesting
      (2) None of these models are reversible. Put in a starting point of today's conditions, set the time increment to -1, and run the simulation backwards for 100 years. What comes out will be nothing like the world as it actually was in 1900. If we can't accuratly predict what happened in the past, how can we have any belief that the models tell us anything meaningful about the future?

      You're correct about the models not necessarily being reversable - meaning that you can't predict history from the future. However, the correct method of verifying a simulation as correct is to verify the simulation results against known data. In the article, where it talks about the Anasazi, they describe writing the simulation and then letting it run through they years that they have data about the Anasazi (where the villiages are, the water availability, etc) and comparing it to reality. As described, they got quite close to reality. Villiages ending up in the same spot as reality over 50% of the time, etc. etc. etc.. Remember, it is very hard to determine the cause (or stimulus) from the effect without additional data. However, if the cause (stimulus) is known, the effect is usually fairly easy to guess.

      If we were to try to build a model of today's history, you would want to build the model, seed it like the world was in the 1700's or earlier and let it run, and see how often it ended up correct. If it wasn't quite accurate, figure out where your model is wrong, fix, and repeat.

      In the Asimov stories, what Hari Seldon was doing was to come up with a set of "formulas" (stored in the prime radiant) which accurately simulated history. The more accurate the formulas and the data you have, the more correct you are going to be. Hari and the members of the Foundation were constantly working on tweaks to better account for errors in the simulation. The hard part is dealing with the truly random influences. For instance, in the article when they talked about the Anasazi, they used real weather data instead of simulating it. I suspect if the weather data was simulated, the simulation would not have been as accurate on a year-to-year basis, although if the weather simulation was realistic enough I suspect that the outcome would have been similar.

      Thinking back about Psychohistory as put forward by Asimov, I think that the only thing which really stretches for me is the accuracy (within a few months) of the events which he predicted-- taking into account the numerous variables which have such a rare occurance (such as an asteroid hitting a planet wiping everything out, or another major random event), that it would be throw the accuracy of small-scale events off. It seems logical that you can be accurate on a large scale on a simulation (over many thousands of years) or on a small scale (over a hundred years or so), but not both with the same simulation.

    3. Re:Hari Seldon by sphealey · · Score: 4, Interesting
      You're correct about the models not necessarily being reversable - meaning that you can't predict history from the future. However, the correct method of verifying a simulation as correct is to verify the simulation results against known data.
      This is a very interesting question with a lot of good arguments and points of view to be hashed out. So I won't make any strong statements about Elphick and fwc's arguments, just that I respectfully disagree with them.

      The problem with the "running forward from 1900" test is that the model includes, both explicitly and subconsciously, the model maker's view and understanding of the world that already exists. Including the events that occured between 1900 and 2000, say. So of course you would expect it to show reasonably accurate results for that time period - otherwise it would have been discarded during the development phase. However, that is no guarantee that the model is accurate outside the limits of that perception of the world.

      I ran into exactly this problem myself. I developed several system dynamics models that seemed to give a good simulation of the population and wealth of the City of Chicago from 1950 to 1980. But when I ran them starting with the base data for similar cities, I got meaningless results. What seemed on first examination to be a general model of city population was actually just a condensed way of displaying the known state of one particular city.

      So stronger tests than just "run forward to known state" are needed. Some argue that human events include irreversible processes, so perhaps the "run backwards" test is not valid. But more is needed than a demonstration between two known states.

      sPh

  8. Re:A pebble in the sky by fwc · · Score: 3, Informative
    Used on amazon from $2.00..

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345335635

    It is quite a good story, actually.

  9. Re:Issac Asimov's Harry Seldon by sphealey · · Score: 3, Interesting
    [The Club of Rome]They came to some very interesting (and even disturbing) conclusions.
    Yes, those models are fun to play around with. Are there any open source Dynamo systems out there?

    Problem is, the Club of Rome predicted that everyone in the Western world would either be starving to death or choked in their own waste by the far-off year 2000. Looking out my window today, I see that things are far from perfect, but we have a higher population, more food, and in many respects less pollution than we did in 1975. So the CoR's models were dead wrong.

    sPh

  10. Re:Sociology by punchdrunk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But that's exactly what the corruption/honesty simulation is trying to argue against. It is saying that traditional social science modelling is fundamentally flawed because it assumes everyone in a particular group behaves the same and has unlimited knowledge.

    A social model that viewed individuals as multiple copies of the same fully informed person could thus never "see" the social transformation that Hammond found, for the simple reason that without diversity and limited knowledge, the transformation never happens. Given that human beings are invariably diverse and that the knowledge at their disposal is invariably limited, it would seem to follow that even societies in which unsophisticated people obey rudimentary rules will produce surprises and discontinuities--events that cannot be foreseen either through intuition or through the more conventional sorts of social science.

  11. Problems with the models by DG · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The major problems with the models is that they are not very good at handling technological change that in turn makes fundamental changes in the values the models use to make its predictions.

    For example, let's say your population growth model includes a value for "food value produced per acre of land". If something comes along that allows more food to be produced per acre, then that'll skew the models to hell.

    This actually happened. A new strain of wheat (?) was produced a few years ago that was able to survive in much tougher conditions, and that single-handedly staved off starvation in India.

    The same with waste levels. recycling has become much more prevelent, and modern cars are so much better that they're actually starting to _clean_ the air that passes through them.

    The models were accurate the day they were published, but the run conditions have changed since.

    DG

    --
    Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
  12. tit for tat by geoswan · · Score: 3, Insightful
    In the eighties a guy named Robert Axelrod ran a tournament. Participants submitted computer programs, that were to interact with one another. The "society" they simulated was very simple. They could use any strategy to play the "prisoner's dilemma".

    The program that ended up as the most successful was also the simplest. University of Toronto Game Theorist Anatol Rappaport had submitted a program he called tit for tat. Tit for tat initially cooperated with all the other players. In subsequent turns if the other player it was interacting with had defected last turn, it defected this turn. If the other player had cooperated last turn it cooperated this turn.

    Yes, the interactions between people are very complicated, and this game is very simple. Still food for thought though.

  13. Re:/. and Zipf's Law by flufffy · · Score: 3, Interesting
    no, but seriously, you could count things like the length of each post (e.g. by counting # of characters), there would be a few very long posts and many many short posts, with the average length of post being quite short. maybe you could also do this with the # of posts in each discussion, with there being a few discussions with 1000's of posts and the majority being below 150/200 or so.

    i've done this in other research, it checks out, it's pretty neat to calculate the length of posts/conversations etc, rank them and graph them, and see a zipf distribution pop out. anybody else out there doing this?

  14. Distinguish between Modelling and Emulation.... by cyberon22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A model pictures reality by simplifying it. This research is emulation.... The problem is that everyone KNOWS the outcomes. The IMPORTANT question is whether the underlying assumptions catch the true causal forces.

    And there are real problems with this school of thought, not the least of which is its claim that getting complex interactions out of simple assumptions is any harder than getting complex interactions out of a great deal of assumptions. It should be self-evident that complexity in this type of research stems largely from the number of actors, not the determinants of their behavior.

    Deeper problems include assumptions of rationality and intentionality on the part of actors. There is also a tendency towards selection bias and selectivity THAT IS NEVER ADDRESSED. IE, this author may think he explains ethnic genocide in Rwanda, but never points out that his logic fails miserable in places like Switzerland, Brazil, Mexico, Russia and much of the Middle-East, where his model would predict much MORE conflict than we see.

  15. JASSS - journal for this kind of thing by eddy · · Score: 3, Interesting
    --
    Belief is the currency of delusion.
  16. Re:A pebble in the sky - used is theft by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Why does it matter who sells the used item? By your logic, if I sell you my used Mustang, that's OK, but if I traid my Mustang in on a new Camero, and you then buy the used Mustang from the Chevy dealer, somehow Ford should get a royalty? Sorry, that's not how it works. Amazon is not printing copies of the book, so there is no copyright violation and no theft of royalty.

    Do you also support Disney's position that I should have to pay them a royalty every time I watch a DVD that I purchased? I won't buy DVDs or CDs or anything else under that plan, and I won't buy books under your plan. Period. If you want to kill your market, go right ahead -- there's pleanty of other entertainment sources that take a more reasonable view.

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
  17. Re:Do not use your more recent data to set your mo by sphealey · · Score: 3, Informative
    If you use the data say 1970 - 1985 for building your model, you can use 1986 - 2002 as the 'future' you are trying to predict.
    That might take care of the explict side (although I would argue that), but it does not address the subconscious bias of the modeler in creating the model - after all, we already know what happened during those time periods. Nor the problem of self-selection described by cyberon22 above.

    sPh

  18. BUG IN THE MODEL by Medievalist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    /.
    A fatal flaw of this simulation (as a model of real society, that is) is that it includes the "Cincinatus" characters - the incorruptible agents - but does not include the "Dillingers" - agents who are not deterred by punishment, of themselves or of others.

    I have found over the years that people who are not influenced by "common sense" (or even an informed sense of self-preservation) are much more common than incorruptible people. Luckily (perhaps) these people more commonly are obsessed with greed than killing, or we'd have a lot more mayhem and a few less rich people.

    Thus, the simultation should include agents that are not influenced by the arrest rate, and the model will probably become cyclic instead of trending to a fixed equilibrium.

    Your statement that "the simulation is accurate" is unfounded, as any serious study of real behaviour in a police state will show. The Chinese shoot homosexuals and drug addicts; yet they still occur just as frequently as in other nations with less draconian laws. The US is "soft on crime" according to the Immoral Minority, yet our crime rates continue to drop.

    But of course, anyone who thinks humans are simple agents with simple motivations is very unobservant.

    --Charlie

  19. Introspective Models by gnovos · · Score: 3, Informative

    The main problem with models like these is that they do not often take into account the dynamic nature of the "rules" that govern the simulated people. In the real world, people are able to change the rules that they live by, self-programming in a sense. For example, if we were to run a model that used the "rules" that governed race-relations in the 1800 and attempt to run that simulation forward to today, we would find that the end result is drastically different than the world we live in today, becuase the rules themlesves are evolving as the simulation moves forward. Maybe when simulating frog populations, this kind of rule-changing is less common, but when simulating people, it will always happen.

    People have the ability to see the broader picture and alter the way the work in it. For example, in the scenario from the article where any particular square bases it's actions on the squares next to it, a "human" square would base it's rules on the squares next to it, BUT also on the makup of the board as a whole.

    Once the simulators begin to allow the rules themselves to change, then we will see some really amazing results.

    --
    "Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"