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First, WinModems. Now, WinWiFi.
zulux writes "Microsoft is actively encouraging WiFi (802.11b) hardware manufacturers to strip their devices of costly electronics, and use Microsoft software/drivers to make up the slack. And you thought WinModems were bad!"
As if WEP wasn't insecure enough as it is... Microsoft making it even more exploitable is just what we need... I can just immagine an 802.11x code-redish worm floating around... sounds like fun to me!
Just like MS to try and steal the thunder of something popular after the fact (coughcoughnetscape).
I think any company today who makes a "Soft WiFi" card will recognize that they're cutting out a serious chunk of their potential customers. It's not like the peak days of WinModems, where Linux users were a negligible percentage to the consumer hardware industry.
...people will go for this, because they dont know any better and because it's cheap. I just hope this doesnt become industry standard, because it will mean a step backwards instead of forwards, and because this is an obvious ploy by microsoft to push their domination of the OS market, anyone who's ever tried to install a winmodem in linux knows that. Oh well, thats my 2c.
I like replies better than Karma, even if they are flames, because that tells me I got someone thinking.
Some of you have commented on the possible performance implications of "soft" WiFi, but there is an even bigger issue, the same reason we hated WinModems so much.
If the software routines / hardware API is kept proprietary, which is likely the case, us Linux/FreeBSD/other open-source OS users will be left in the dark.
Either [a] hardware vendor thinks they will look good and support Linux by releasing a binary-only driver that is only compatible with kernel version X, and needs to be hacked to work with anything else, FreeBSD users like myself are out of luck (and anyway I would _never_ use a binary-only driver in an open-source kernel - hence my gripes with NVIDIA).
or [b] some of the brave of us attempt to reverse-engineer Windows drivers.
Either way, consider the next wave of laptops coming with built in "soft" WiFi - a definite possibility considering the amount of money manufacturers could save, and offer WiFi standard even on their lowest-end models. This means chances are we have to fork out and buy a traditional PCMCIA hardware adapter. And a lot of us run Linux/FreeBSD/whatever on our notebooks, I know I won't be happy. I think I'll be paying the $US45 for an 802.11b card while I can!
Which raises another interesting point - you may think "yeah there will always be hardware PCMCIA WiFi cards". But look what happened to 56k modems - try and find a 56k modem on a PCI card that isn't a soft-modem!
Of course this is not bad for everybody - the new cheap WiFi will be more widely spread since 99% of computers run Windows NT/Windows anyway, and this good be a good thing for prices of WiFi cards,etc.
--jquirke
Everybody seems to be making the assumption that there won't be drivers. Why not? Linux has a small but appreciable market share, and that market share is more apt to get WiFi than most other users. Unlike the situation when WinModems first came out, there is a viable base and thus economic incentive to release Linux drivers.
Now, let's hope they come with source - too many chipsets require that the end manufacturer can't release open source drivers. mda_hal.o and the like are workable, but not optimal - to a certain extent, open source drivers for software driven accessories like the so called Win* hardware makes it *more* powerful for the open source realm, where talented hackers can alter and upgrade the drivers to drive the hardware beyond the original specifications, purposes and features that were originally designed for it.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
the processor usage of this will be? Given that using a 56k winmodem can take a noticable amount of processor time, what will is it likely to take up in these high-bandwidth devices?
Personally I haven't had any bad experiences with winmodems, I've only had one (Lucent chip) and it seems to do a fair job in my linux gateway for browsing, but forget games!
He who defends everything, defends nothing. -- Fredrick The Great
..because it'll never happen.
Wireless is not a casual item like a modem is. Joe sixpack wants a modem to get onto AOL. He doesn't care about the method, only the result. Joe gets prOn, and on a modem that cost a whole ten bucks less! That's 5 blank cd's fer chrissakes.
But.
Joe Sixpack doesn't use wireless. It's a step-up on the tech ladder. And those who are in the know, are in the know and would *never* use a SOFT WiFi. No bottom feeders use wireless. And a soft-anything is a bottom feeder solution.
Let some clueless HW mfg make these things. If they're lucky they'll sell maybe five of them.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
interesting way of making your 802.11b device only work on windows... imagine it if you don't activate your MS software they can not only disable your PC, but your entire network. fun fun fun
I don't think too many companies are going to fall for this. Remember most of them use the same cards in their base units too and these don't have anywhere enough extra power to run Windows let alone a winnic.
Winmodems were a barrier for linux, but network cards are cheap and people will probably consider them inferior in design if they won't work on Linux. Linux servers are becoming popular in the average house, very well respected. This won't be seen as a weakness of Linux/Unix, but instead a weakness of the card itself.
Get the fuck out of here.
I'm philosophically against this too, but claiming that offloading the processing of an 802.11b card onto a 1.xGHz processor is going to "drag down" the system is a steaming pile.
It is actually a good idea from a the perspective of operating the cards. The less going on in the card the cleaner your signal will be.
OTOH, from a hardware peripheral point of view it is plain stupid to tie your device's ability to operate to a particular runtime environment. One would be wiser to have a clean and simple interface to simplify writing the driver. From a peripheral manufacturers point of view a driver is an expense that doesn't generate revenue (generally).
-Peter
The logic behind winmodems was to reduce the hardware costs and drive down the prices. My question is how much cheaper can they really drive these prices down. Right now you can pick up a wireless ethernet card for $50. Modems are runing as low as $30 for comparison.
So as demand increases, quantities of scale continue to increase, we can expect the cost for those same cards to come down. It's unlikely that WiFi cards will be able to press much further down in price even with using software drivers.
Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the wireless manufacturers tend to save costs by reducing redundancy in their wireless products. If you use a Lucent AP-1000 access point, it runs on the same cards that you'd put in your laptop. I have yet to see a wireless adapater for a desktop that wasn't, in reality, a PCMCIA slot with a wireless card. It's a big cost savings to them to only have to manufacture one set of devices to fill their needs in laptops, PC's, and access points. Trying to do software drivers would totally screw up these possibilities.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
And let's not forget that Microsoft has a brand new way of leveraging its monopoly: Driver Signing.
..So a manufacturer announces that they're going to make a software WiFi card. Knowing that a significant portion of their market base are people running Linux, they publicize their intent to make both Windows and Linux drivers.
Now they go to Microsoft to get their driver signed. Behind closed doors, Microsoft says "Nice product! We don't approve of the Linux driver though. Make your product Windows only, or we won't sign your driver." If they refuse, then publically, Microsoft claims that the driver didn't meet Microsoft's standards of quality for a kernel driver. They both have a defensible excuse, and can smear the uncooperative company.
Now the company is faced with a business decision. Face the 95% of their customers who use Windows and tell them to "Just click okay" when Windows says "This driver isn't signed! It's really, really bad to install unsigned drivers," thus reducing their image in front of their customers. Or, don't release a Linux driver, and save face with their Windows clients.
..And it can only get worse. How long until Microsoft doesn't allow unsigned drivers to be installed in the name of reducing their tech support costs?
If you look at how Transmeta does this (Intel and AMD are moving in the same direction) you'll find that the throttling is based on load analysis. For instance, a Crusoe system will not throttling down as much for DVD playback as for something less demanding like word processing. It's already been demonstrated that CPU speed can be altered constantly and still receive benefit in extended battery life.
SoftWiFi would just be another factor in the load analysis. When no network transactions are occurring the CPU runs a wee bit slower and speed up that little bit when needed. SoftWiFi would be used primarily in low end system which are understood by most prospective purchasers to have lesser battery life. This would be consistent with the way the portable market has operated since the 80's.
One possible outcome of this is a fork in the wireless data protocols if the "real" protocols are too expensive (patents etc) or too difficult to implement. I do not find it hard to imagine a scenario where somebody says "screw it" and writes a lightweight packet radio implementation using just enough of the hardware to get by and inventing a protocol with real security (none of this WEP or 802.11x crap). Add an instant D.I.Y. gateway (mini PC with OS of your choice) and voila.
Of course, that assumes that getting enough info to talk to the DSP etc is possible. I guess the far more likely outcome would just be more pain and hurt for non-M$ folks (but that's what M$'s objective is anyway!). Sigh.
Windows XP already downloads new runtime firmware to my wavelan card... I discovered this because it broke my old base station that didn't support link layer fragmentation with WEP enabled. I had to update the firmware on the base station to get it to work again after installing XP.
Get over yourself, lad. The PC market is vastly larger than that segment that interests you. Does the existence of tens of millions of Intel 810 -based business desktops somehow force you to use that chipset? I don't think so.
As long as they stay SoftWiFi, it's OK - it will be much cheaper. Providing there will be opensource developers willing to work on these.
But if it becomes WinWiFi - well, that is of course bad. Closed source, some kind of paranoid patent protection is of course unhealthy.
And Microsoft will be of course opting for Win, not SoftWifi.
:wq