Spanish Province Dist-Upgrades

Johnny Mnemonic writes "The Spanish province of Extremadura has adopted Linux for the official OS of schools and offices, largely because of price. Simply, they don't have enough money for other OSes, and they promise to handle the rollout more gracefully than a similar Linux initiative in Mexico. According to Wired, this is the first time a European school system has switched to Linux."

Comments

Just a minor correction...

[mfarah]

The Spanish province of Extremadura has[...]

Actually, Extremadura is an autonomous community (formerly a region under the older division of the country). It's composed of TWO provinces: Cáceres and Badajoz.

There. Mod me down as redundant if you will.

Re:Just a minor correction...

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

Extremadura is an autonomous community

WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship: a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh, there you go bringing class into it again.

The desktop-revolution begins

[rseuhs]

Even the most die-hard Microsoft supporters will admit that Linux is viable on the desktop right now.

Microsoft supporters usually cite "migration costs" or "training costs", or other shortsighted reasons why people should not switch to Linux.

This is shortsighted because corporations and organisations come and go -> If switching costs is the only thing in favor of Windows, then it will lose slowly, but steadily.

Of course, the massive Windows-exodus will not start before CodeWeavers and Transgaming make Linux "Windows compatible", but I see them doing exactly this in the next 2 years.

Then computer-makers will start putting Windows-compatible-but-cheaper-than-Windows Linux on their boxes.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[56ker]

If you notice which companies grow the most - it's the small ones. They're flexible enough to change their working practices unlike the big behemoths where they're virtually set in stone!

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[municio]

IMHO, it's going to be the other way around: people will first switch to open source applications, (StarOffice/OpenOffice for instance, since it works in Windows) and then to an Open Source OS. It's easier this way, and it does more economic sense. I can imagine my company switching to an open source Office suite to save $500, I don't imagine them migrating to Linux to save on a Windows license they already paid for when the bought the computer. Besides, a marketoid who can MS Office can use StarOffice/OpenOffice very easily. If a marketoid has a problem with OpenOffice, I'm sure he will find his way around. But I can't imagine the same marketoid doing a su or changing file permissions. Besides the support team in many companies is made of MCSEs very familiar with Windows and that perceive Linux like a thread to their jobs. But I don't think they view OpenOffice like a thread, since they are not so into MS Office either.

Once a companies rely on specific open source applications, it might make sense for the market and free developers to target their efforts in providing bullet proof distributions based on specific applications, that hide all complexity to the final user (a la AOL), and gives maintenance responsibilities to the administrators. By complexity I mean very simple things for technical people (file permissions, packages installation, etc...), that look very complex for regular users.

For know, it's to soon to target the non-technical desktop market. Look at Red Hat, they don't even mention the desktop market. They focus only on the server side.

Move people first to open source applications, (I convinced 5 people to move over Mozilla on Windows this month on my job). OS will come later.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[Dave_bsr]

As far as i'm concerned, OO matches MS office. it's not _exactly_ the same thing but it does what an office app should do, and it's very close to being able to open up MS docs well. It can do what an office system should do, and it does it well. Once an office application is available, adoption will follow. Applications follow a market - and if linux doesn't get XYZ applications in ABC time that doesn't mean it isn't "viable", it just means it isn't the right thing for you at that time.

Gimp is cool, there are a million cool things about linux. And yes you can use it successfully as a desktop OS - I do.

Getting a machine "linux compatible" is much easier in my experience than getting a machine windows 2K compatible, by far - and XP has some pretty high standards too. I've never had problem with NICs, and my bet is that winmodem support will come, and in some areas is coming. As much as they suck, i wouldn't mind the extra for a REAL MODEM, thank you.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[Chasuk]

Even the most die-hard Microsoft supporters will admit that Linux is viable on the desktop right now.

I suppose you could call me a die-hard Microsoft supporter, though I tend to consider myself agnostic regarding OS's. However, as I use Microsoft OS's to the virtual exclusion of all others, the die-hard Linux supporters will probably consider me a die-hard Microsoft supporter. The point of this wordy preamble? I am [or might be considered] a die-hard Microsoft supporter, and I take exception to the quote italicized above.

Linux ISN'T viable on the Desktop right now.

Linux will be ready for the Desktop when the majority of *neophyte computer users* don't need tech support and hand-holding to use it, or when the tech support which is available is as freely and ubiquitously available as it is for the Windows platform.

The words *neophyte computer users* were emphasized for a reason. Don't respond unless you have digested them.

I work in telephone tech support, and I have done so for years. Further, I am the guy who is called by in-laws, friends, acquaintances, and other assorted and otherwise not-even-on-their-xmas-card-list family members when their PC stops co-operating.

During the day, EVERY day, I get phone calls like this one:

Customer: "Hello, I use you for my e-mails, and now I can't get them."

Me: "We are your Internet Service Provider, and you are having trouble receiving your e-mail through us?"

Customer: "Uh-huh."

I collect the customer's name, I look their account up, and after I have ensured that their service has not been disconnected due to a deliquent bill, we proceed.

Me: "Are you connected to the Internet when you try to check your e-mail?"

Customer: "What?"

Me: "When you try to check your e-mail, are you sure that you are actually connected to the Internet?"

Customer: "I don't know. How do I tell?"

After several false starts we do solve the problem, but the conversation almost always includes moments similar to this:

Me: "What version of Windows are you using?"

Customer: "I don't know. How do I tell?"

Or:

Me: "What browser do you use?"

Customer: "I don't know. What's a browser?"

Me: "The program that you use to browse the web. Do you use Internet Explorer, Netscape Communicator, Opera, or something else?"

Customer: "I don't know. How do I tell?"

Or:

Customer: "I can't read what my friend sent me."

Me: "What did you send you?"

Customer: "I don't know, I can't open it to find out."

Me: "No, I mean did he send you a text file, a sound file, an image, what?"

Customer: "I don't know, I can't open it to find out."

Me: "What is the name of the file that he sent you?"

Customer: "I don't know. How do I tell?"

Me: "Did he send it to you as an e-mail attachment, or was it sent on a zip disk, a floppy, or a CD?"

Customer: "I don't know. How do I tell?"

Or:

Customer: "How can I get rid of my cookies?"

I spend several minutes trying to explain one of several different processes, during which time it becomes obvious that the customer has no fucking idea what a cookie even is, but a helpful computer "expert" told him they were bad.

I spend hours a month trying to explain to people how to install, and remove, various computer applications. In Windows, it is a relatively painless procedure, though it is far from standard or perfect. The customer might have to download a program to help him extract the file he has downloaded, which is always confusing to a neophyte, but they eventually manage. Usually it is double-click and go, for both installation and removal. I say usually: Windows is especially sloppy in leaving fragments of removed programs all over the HD, and in leaving shit in the registry. And DLL hell sucks, but both problems are getting better.

In Linux, the customer has to understand debs, and rpms, and tarballs, minimum. He has to understand the compile process, and what a dependency is, and that the kernel may be rock solid, but that the Windows Manager or the application he is using isn't. In other words, he has to understand that the stable OS he is using, as a Desktop solution, is just as prone to crashes as Windows, but that if he were running a server it wouldn't crash nearly as often as a server crashes in Windows. That is exceedingly useful to a Desktop user.

Imagine a conversation with a neophyte Linux Desktop user.

Me: "What distribution of Linux are you using?"

Customer: "I don't know. How do I tell?"

Or:

Me: "What Window Manager are you using?"

Customer: "I don't know. How do I tell?"

I would then spend several minutes trying to ascertain whether the customer was using Gnome, or KDE (all arguments over what a Windows Manager is put aside), or Enlightenment, or...

You get the idea.

Now, today, right now, the average Linux user is several times more computer literate than the average Windows user. They are members of the geek-elite. They wouldn't ask questions as dumb as the examples I've given.

But for Linux to be viable on the Desktop, it would have to embrace the masses of *neophyte computer users* who are already petrified by MS Windows. And MS Windows is pretty bloody simple, in most regards, to Linux, regardless of which distribution or Windows Manager you are using.

I've been installing Linux since 1995, with Slackware as my first install, and it has improved leaps and bounds, but it is still not ready for the Desktop, the Desktop being that user space inhabited by the non computer-geeks, the computer neophytes.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[jesterzog]

Even the most die-hard Microsoft supporters will admit that Linux is viable on the desktop right now.

Even the most die-hard Linux supporters will admit that Windows is viable on the desktop right now. Unfortunately it has to be better before most people will consider it a reasonable alternative. It also needs better marketing, because effective (not necessarily honest) marketing is so often what decides the purchasing decisions that people and businesses make. Whether or not GNU fans want to sell their soul and push boundaries to gain market share is another issue, though.

Microsoft supporters usually cite "migration costs" or "training costs", or other shortsighted reasons why people should not switch to Linux.

This is shortsighted because corporations and organisations come and go -> If switching costs is the only thing in favor of Windows, then it will lose slowly, but steadily.

I'll agree that it's shortsighted, but I also don't see a serious difference between Linux supporters citing "software purchasing costs", which for the most part is just a fixed cost in the first place. Once you've bought it, you have it.

I've had Win98 on one of my boxes for three years, I've installed the updates when they came along, and it hasn't cost me much more than what I paid for it. It's the ongoing maintenance that's the big cost to a lot of businesses. Linux usually requires much higher paid and harder to find staff than Windows requires...

Yes it's partly because of the education system and the Microsoft monopoly and the unfair popularity of winmodems from companies that don't release alternative drivers, but it's true. And it's unlikely to be too difficult to put together an argument showing this to be more expensive than the occasional Microsoft upgrade.

Personally I like using linux/bsd/unix/whatever more than Windows. But I think it's naive to talk about free software as an inevitable dinosaur that will soon rise up and thwart Microsoft out of existence. Five years ago, people were saying that exactly that would happen within months, and people never stop saying it. It also never really happens.

When it comes down to it, Microsoft is full of very smart (albeit cut-throat competitive) business people who, whatever you might read around slashdot, are not stupid. Microsoft could be split in half and it'd still come out on top one way or another. This doesn't mean that Microsoft doesn't make mistakes or that people won't switch away from Microsoft products; all of that is just part of the calculated risk taking that any business does. But it's not going to collapse under its own stupidity any time soon.

That's how I feel about it, anyway.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[visualight]

I know an 11 year old girl who can produce web pages in a text editor and is equally comfortable using linux as she is using windows. Her parents think she's a brainiac, but the truth is she just didn't know in advance that linux would be harder. Just as she thinks that using Front Page or GoLive is harder than using NotePad. I quote, "I don't know what all those buttons do, it's easier to just type it." She's learning javascripting from one of the Bible books now, although I am available to "translate" the lessons from the book.

The point is it's just as easy to tell a friend in need to type "rpm -Uvh" as it is to say "doubleclick this file".

Linux is not so difficult it's just different and some people are too timid to attempt the adjustment. Think of how AOL spends a billion dollars a year convincing people that they're "easy" to use when in fact all they did was make they're user interface deliberately different from the "generic" IE/NS set. When an AOL user see's me open up Mozilla to a "blank" page they go "What do I do now?" because all the banner ads and popups are missing.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[Gizzmonic]

Look at Apple, decent systems with SHIT for software or at the very least, a good wait of 6 months to a year to get the same software Windows already has.

Not everyone cares about playing Doom 2k2, or having 12 different versions of label-making software. Some of us have video to edit, and the best packages are Mac-only.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[uspsguy]

You must not support the same Windows that I do. I just spent Friday night and Saturday morning trying to clean up a botched modem install on a W2K laptop. Finding and deleting files manually, searching and editing the regestry for multiple abandoned keys, frequent reboots. It was my father-in-law's machine. He is more computer literate than most but was completely lost. Don't tell me Windows is ready for the desktop. Its there by default in most cases but that doesn't mean its any better than Linux. At work, we have numerous Unix-flavor boxes that just run day in and day out. We keep Ghost images of our Windows workstations on the network because we don't have time to figure out all the problems that crop up. We just give them a fresh working image and walk away.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[m_evanchik]

Just putting my two cents in, but after 3 abortive attempts (Slackware, Mandrake, Debian) I finally got Linux workably installed through Red Hat.

I'm impressed with it, but it is definitely a work in progress.

Probably the biggest obstacle is just inertia. Whether it sucks or not, I've gotten used to my Windows box and have amassed the software on it and tweaked the interface that I'm used to.

Linux also lacks some pretty important software support on the desktop, particularly Adobe's Illustrator and Photoshop.

And finally hardware support is not out of the box. I still haven't started using my digicam with Linux because I'm worried it will be a long and tedious process.

That all said, I am very impressed with the potential of Linux as a desktop workstation. I'm really most interested in it as a server and platform for some big number-crunching.

So we'll see...

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[dvdeug]

Linux will be ready for the Desktop when the majority of *neophyte computer users* don't need tech support and hand-holding to use it, or when the tech support which is available is as freely and ubiquitously available as it is for the Windows platform.

Viable - Capable of living; born alive and with such form and development of organs as to be capable of living; -- said of a newborn, or a prematurely born, infant.

Viable doesn't mean that it conquers all. It means that there is something there that works.

In Linux, the customer has to understand debs, and rpms, and tarballs, minimum.

Why? Minimum, you have to understand debs or rpms, whichever is native on your system. For most major distributions, that will let you install pretty much everything you could possibly want. I have at most two or three packages installed from source hanging around, and none from RPM. You may as well claim that any Windows user must understand zips and rars and isos, minimum.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[quintessent]

The point is it's just as easy to tell a friend in need to type "rpm -Uvh" as it is to say "doubleclick this file".

Your point is well made except for this part. How many people are actually going to remember such a long string of unrelated letters, vs. people who will know to double click a file? The idea is to minize those phone calls from your "friend."

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[Tord]

Until Star Office or Open Office can match up with MS Office, Linux on the desktop is only viable for geeks. (I also like Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Cakewalk Pro, but don't see them being ported any time soon. GIMP ain't in the Photoshop caliber league inspite of what some people may think.)

As far as I'm concerned Open Office allready matches up with MS Office. I'm using it both at work and home for all my Wordprocessing and Spreadsheet needs and yes, I do need good MS Office import/export ability. All my colleagues use MS Office, but I have no trouble keeping up with them although Open Office still is a beta. I can't speak about the other programs because I don't use them.

Hardware compatibility is another problem. With all the winmodems and NICs out there that don't work with Linux how can you expect to get people to use it if you can't network? Replacing the NICs and winmodems isn't always the answer if you've got a cash strapped school.

I can't imagine many schools using a winmodem for each and every computer. They have a local network and one or a handful of connection points to the outside world. A new NIC is cheaper than one license of Windows, but I don't think many schools needs to replace those either.

I still like Linux on the servers, but on the desktop, it's got a long way to go.

I'm not a server guy, in fact I've nerver set up a server in my whole life. I'm only running deskop computers, but I still prefer Linux. Sure, there are a lot of areas that needs to be improved, but there are also a lot of things I like better with the Linux desktops (both Gnome and KDE) than Windows, for example:

• A lot of standard programs (editors, compilers, graphics tools, webbrowsers, games, scripting languages, IM clients etc) installed and correctly configured by default. I don't need to install them one by one.
• More themability and eye-candy. I want my computer to be fun and friendly to work with and I like to play around with look'n feel settings. It's fun! :)
• A good text shell. The MS-DOS prompt sucks.
• Linux has another kind of user community which I find more fun to be a part of.
• It's more adapted to multi-user environments. It will be perfect when me and my fiance get kids, I just give them their own account and let them play around, knowing that they can't screw up my files.
• Most good, standard programs are free. I save a lot of money. :)

As you can see, there is already a lot of reasons for me to run Linux on the desktop. I'm absolutely more techsavy than the average user (I'm a programmer by profession) and some of the points only apply to me, but quite many do apply to the average user as well.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[Permission Denied]

The point is it's just as easy to tell a friend in need to type "rpm -Uvh" as it is to say "doubleclick this file".

Surely you gest.

(a) recognition and memorization are completely different cognitive abilities, and (b) you need to actually work with these people to figure out what the parent poster is talking about. I'll talk about (b).

I knew this guy in college - physics major, really smart guy. He was doing numerical analysis in Fortran and he decided he needed his own Linux box instead of just using the iron the physics department offered. He bought a system from VA (this was a while ago).

Mein Gott, the problems this guy had. He never bothered to look up the rpm command. He just used the KDE feature where it would install an rpm once you double-clicked on it. If you think the "neophyte user" will remember that command you're completely wrong. If you think the neophyte user will do a google or apropos search for the rpm syntax, you're wrong. The neophyte user will never even see a demonstration of the rpm syntax.

One day, he decided to use GNOME instead of KDE. I get a phonecall when he wants to go back to KDE from GNOME. The Hell I went through that day.... No he wasn't using gdm, kdm, just plain xdm. Forget trying to guide him through editting .xsession. I ended up physically going to his machine and fixing it myself. Fortunately, I also enabled ssh that day.

Week later, I get another phone call. He can't log in using xdm. It took a while to get a good explanation of what was really going on, but I finally figured that logging into xdm was just spitting him back to the xdm prompt. So I tell hime to give me his passwords, and I log into his box. Nothing seems wrong - his .xsession is fine, I tried it myself remotely. Everything in his user account looked peachy. Then I did a "df -h". Turns out he had like 20 gigs empty in /home, but the 4 gigs in / were all filled up. This guy never used the user account that the VA setup program must have created for him. Double-clicking on rpm files requires root privs, so he would always log in as root. Thus, /root was full of crap and /home was completely empty (VA had a nice partitioning scheme which I understood). Problem is, this guy didn't have any idea of what a user even is, so the lecture about not logging in as root probably did nothing.

Now, you might call this guy clueless. Regarding unix administration, yes, he was completely clueless, but the stuff he was doing in his fortran programs was way over my head. This guy definitely knew his physics, so he wasn't stupid. Problem with us unix folks is that a lot of time we lump in people who don't understand Unix as idiots.

Me? I love /usr/ports, CVSup, the whole lot. Makes my job easier and more fun. But I know this stuff is not for everybody, and I'm OK with that - I'm not going to install Linux on my aging mother's win98 PC and if my colleague likes using MacOS, that's fine by me - no need to force Unix on everybody.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[rseuhs]

Linux will be ready for the Desktop when the majority of *neophyte computer users* don't need tech support and hand-holding to use it, or when the tech support which is available is as freely and ubiquitously available as it is for the Windows platform.

The words *neophyte computer users* were emphasized for a reason. Don't respond unless you have digested them.

I installed Linux (and before you ask: I also installed Windows for him, he is not willing to install *anything* by himself) for one of this kind.

One month ago, he calls me up for a need for a painting program, so I tell him on the phone: "Type Alt-F2 and then G-I-M-P Enter"

Problem solved. And much easier than in Windows where I would have to guide him through the start-menu where even I had no idea where the goddamn Photoshop/whatever is.

Actually supporting Linux on the phone or per E-Mail is much, much easier than supporting Windows over the phone, because you can do pretty everything with the commandline, and simple tasks in one line.

But how should an OS "agnostic" user who uses exclusively Windows know?

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[rseuhs]

However, is this not supposed to be about choice? If someone wants to use an MS solution, let them. Or MAC/OSX, Sun, Amiga or a TRS80 for all I care. Last time I checked, my Red Hat T-shirt said "revolution of choice", not "zealots will conquer the earth" nor "MS must fall".

Sorry, but all the advantages (great software library, good education system, good driver support) of Windows are results of their surpreme marketshare.

If their dominating marketshare goes away, all their advantages will go away and they are pretty much toast.

So "revolution of choice" is EQUIVALENT to "MS must fall". Microsoft can't survive on a leveled playing field.

And MS knows that pretty well, that's why they care so much about that 1% - 2% of desktop-Linux users.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[BlueWonder]

You have a strong point that Microsoft Windows is not ready for the desktop. But I fail to see what this has to do with the desktop viability of Linux.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[miguel]

People have been using computers with DOS and different variations of Windows for quite some time. I do not think anyone could claim that those systems were consistent or easy to use. They have always been a mess. We just happen to know how to use them.

Joel addresses the issue of frustration when moving between platforms: little things that are different frustrate people.

Anyways, if you are just starting to train people (like this is the case), you might train them in Linux or Windows.

Sure, Linux could use some improvements, but those improvements will not happen in a vacuum, in a lab and then deployed to the rest of the world. Just like Windows and the MacOS they will benefit the most from direct and real life exposure.

There are a couple of very nice stories that the Linex people have witnesses over the past few days (my favorite one being a sheep sheppard in the region that fell in love with the Linux distribution they had prepared).

Professors that have offered their input and the help of themselves and their students to improve Linex: This is the kind of thing that you will not see with proprietary software.

Anyways, we are not *that* far, you are just not used to Linux on the desktop. And it will only get better ;-)

Miguel.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[dhogaza]

After spending much of yesterday removing the Nimda virus from a friend's computer, I have to laugh at claims that Window's is easy for the neophyte to use while Linux isn't.

My friend went to MIT on a full scholarship (civil engineering) and to Tufts on a tuition scholarship (environmental engineering). While she has no sysadmin skills she's neither neophtye nor stupid.

Yet without my help I doubt she would've been able to defeat Nimda in any reasonable amount of time.

As soon as ESRi releases ArcGIS for Linux (hopefully later this year) she's switching. It will be easier than learning to dodge, avoid, and when necessary remove all the friggin' viruses, worms, and other nasties that keep cropping up in the Windows world. Her GIS tools are the only thing keeping her on Windows. Other than that she only needs a web browser, e-mail client, and Open Office, no problem.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[Stephen VanDahm]

I used to do some tech support too, and I remember those people. However, what you don't see in tech support are all the thousands of people in the world who may not know much, but can sit down and figure it out, because they don't need to call tech support. I think most computer users fall into this catagory. If this is true, then Linux is certainly a suitable cadidate for the desktop. Here are two examples off the top of my head:

Case 1:

I have a grandmother. She's the stereotypical grandma who doesn't know anything about computers, and calls me on the phone with silly computer questions all the time. However, she was able to use DR-DOS and WordPerfect 5.1 on an old 386 without any problems. Of course, DOS isn't like UNIX, but it's still fairly technical. Back when she had the 386, she had a copy of DOS For Dummies and consulted the book whenever she had a problem. In most cases, that worked fine.

Case 2:

My friend at college, who had never used a computer in his life for anything except MS Word bought an old computer for $25. He got sick of Windows 95 and demanded that I install Linux because he heard it ran faster than Windows on old hardware. So, we put Linux on it, and he's been using it every day ever since. My friend doesn't know the difference between RAM and hard drive space, but he can use FVWM2, Pine, and AbiWord without much trouble. I gave him a copy of O'Reilly's "Running Linux" and I've come by to fix a few hardware-related problems, but he's been basically on his own the whole time, and he likes Linux better than Windows 95.

My Point

Clueless newbies are perfectly capable of running UNIX, especially in corporate environments where the computers are managed by a sysadmin. All the complicated stuff that average users would need to do can be done from graphical utilities like Nautilus or Konqueror. Using Linux in the home may be more annoying than it is worth to Joe Sixpack, but that's just because most i386 UNIX distros are targeted towards corporate customers, rather than home users. Even those products aren't any more complicated than DOS was.

I think the fact that we're computer geeks is irrelevent. We weren't born computer geeks, after all. Everyone reading this post can remember a time when they didn't know anything about computers, but we all managed to learn UNIX. I don't think I'm that much smarter than anyone else is, in fact, I don't have much natural ability in math or science at all. I just sat down and learned how to use it. Anyone else could, if they had a good reason to do so.

That last part is the problem. While I think that Linux offers real advantages over Windows in a corporate or institutional setting (LAN of managed PC's, and so on), Linux isn't any better or worse than Windows or MacOS or BeOS or anything else. Once you can play your MP3's, run office apps, and connect to the Internet, you've done everything a home user needs to do with a computer. Unless Linux does something cool and amazing that Windows can't do, there is no incentive for Joe Sixpack to switch.

Steve

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[m_evanchik]

My problems really weren't with hardware compatibility, Red Hat runs fine.
My problems were with

1) My own lack of expertise and inability to get Xwindows working (Slackware)

2) An evil installation process that wiped out a lot of data. And then a desktop enviroment that crashed whenever I used the hardware config utilities. (Mandrake, and I hope that they go out of business, the arseholes)

3)Debian. For some reason the installation discs got corrupted. Anyway, I never got past installation.

Finally, I tried Red Hat, which I had avoided because: a) they have publically expressed tepid support for the desktop. b) they just seemed a little too corporate.

Well, I'm glad I gave them a shot, because they finally got Linux up for me.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[IamTheRealMike]

Linux ISN'T viable on the Desktop right now.

This assertion is based on the assumption that ALL desktop users are beginners. I use Linux on my desktop, and it is viable for me. Please don't make sweeping generalisations. Many users do know more about computer users than the people you deal with on the phone.

Re:The desktop-revolution begins

[m_evanchik]

Thanks for the offer and advice.

I'm going to stick with Red Hat for now, but one thing I liked about Slackware is that it at least did not cause any problems. But I am also wary of tying myself down to a distro that seems to be a one man show, regardless of how competent that one man might be.

Use the AOL strategy

[fungus]

The government has burned 80,000 CDs with the Debian Linux operating system and software ranging from text editors to an Internet browser. The disks will be sent to the area's 670 schools and distributed to the public through newspaper inserts.

1- One could send millions of CDs, containing an idiot proof linux system, to every computer owners and in computer stores. Add on it a free access to the internet for X months with a random isp, and configure it to be the easiest to use as you can.

2- ???

3- profit.

It would make Linux SO popular!

Re:Use the AOL strategy

[jedidiah]

Nevermind Lycoris: Howabout Tivo?

Unix in general is "expert friendly" and already structured to work around idiots and the malevolent. Unix has both the transparency to sysadmins and the tools to allow for "idiot-proofing".

WinDOS does not.

It's still a system that often asks too much of it's end users and is not willing to affect positive change due to business model conflicts.

The accelerated and gratis release schedule of Linux distributions, as well as the tendency of distributions to include ALL current drivers can actually make Linux more "idiot proof" in the end.

Many of these Lemmings are out of touch with the "common" user that might be intimidated by a mere driver download or fumbling with driver disks. With some devices, it's not merely enough to install everything for some users. Often, little conceptual issues might pose a total barrier.

Even XP's attempts to dumb things down don't even entirely solve this issue.

bilingual?

[CmdrTaco (editor)]

I've wondered for quite some time now about the need for programmers to be bilingual, especially with things such as Linux. I know most of the documentation has been translated into various languages, but it is impossible to translate the actual code. So to be a sysadmin for a Linux based network, I would think you would need to know at least some English.

This brings up the point of cost. Sysadmins in Spain that are bilingual will probably charge a slightly higher fee than those that speak only Spanish. In my experiences, getting Linux running properly requires mucking about in .conf files and code and what not, whereas an MS box will essentially set itself with only the occasional button to press or box to check. I think the end result will be lower cost savings over other alternative OS's than previously predicted, although it will definitely still save them a significant amount of money over an MS "solution".

Re:bilingual?

[glwtta]

Why on earth do you need to read source code to be a sysadmin? Hell, our sysadmin can barely read at all, and the place is still running. Are you like the FUD consumer of the year?

I hope they've considered all of the

[Slash Veteran]

ancillary costs. Not to prompt a flamebait, but if you only compare the costs of the various OSes to purchase, you're missing the boat.

Linux is free to acquire, but it is certainly not free in terms of support costs, training, finding compatibility solutions (when someone in the windoze world sends you that office document), etc.

None of this is insurmountable, but much of it is often overlooked.

JWZ himself said it best: linux is only free if your time has no value.

Now stand back and think about that. So true. Open Source is still the way to go, but don't forget the cost of Open Source in your financial rollups.

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[archen]

Um, this is a school, not an office. Chances are they'll have to have a few people who "know what's going on" to keep everything running even if they went with windows. Training will have to happen anyway, reguardless of if they went with an Apple, MS, BSD or whatever. And if their teachers are anywhere as near as bad as the ones I had, no ammount of training will help anyway =) Compatability isn't much of an issue either with Open Office. I haven't had any regular document not open with Open Office, aside from some wacked out spreadsheets that causes Exel to die half the time.

So basically I'm sure they'd still come out ahead. Linux takes time to learn yes, but then again much of what you learned years ago still works with Linux today. There's something to be said about needing to re-learn things that change (often for no good reason) - something that happens much more often with Apple/MS. So yes, "linux is only free if your time has no value", but I also consider that to be a good investment that doesn't depreciate with time.

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[Anthony Boyd]

Join the Great Slashdot Blackout [slashdot.org] April 21-27

You are aware that today is the 21st, right?

Well. That's funny.

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[rebelcool]

Chances are they'll have to have a few people who "know what's going on" to keep everything running

I laughed out loud when I read this. Public schools are worse than offices because the teachers often don't want to seem incompetant in front of students when it comes to computers.

As someone who's had to deal with public schools and computers for quite some time, I can't help but think linux is a poor choice from a usability stand point and I wonder what exactly they plan on doing with the computers. Maybe they only intend to browse the web with them.

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[Kunta Kinte]

linux is only free if your time has no value.

Not to be a unix zealot, or anything but that quote bothers me, because it implies that Linux maintainnence is a nightmare while other OSes are point and click. That is simply not true.

Didn't have a chance to see MS shops when nimda virus roled along did you? Or constantly taking down their servers for the latest service pack? Or Exchange is "acting up again"

The point is there are major time cost for maintannence of any operating system.

I management solaris servers currently ( linux only as my desktop for now ). And we're constantly on the look out for critical patches, etc. Software screws up just like on any other OS ( eg. very expensive iplanet ldap starts to use 100% CPU for no apparent reason ) My point is the windows people are busy doing the same kind of thing, only with Exchange, IIS, etc.

That view that UNIX total cost of ownership is higher due to higher maintainence cost is incorrect. If you have to hire a small group of competent MS admins to run your MS shop, it would cost you the same as to hire a group of UNIX admins.

Please not buy into that MS marketing crap that any modern Enterprise class OS is point and click

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[catfood]

Linux is only free if your time is of no value.

Well yeah, and Windows is only however-many-bucks per desktop if your time is of no value.

Unless you mean that you never have to mess with Windows to get it to do what you want.

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[jedidiah]

JWZ is simply an idiot.

ALL computing enviroments have system administration overhead. Even WinDOS is not immune to this. Infact, this aspect of WinDOS is why many of us switched to desktop Unix.

We wanted something that was more robust and needed less babysitting.

When compared to the "predominant desktop platform", Unix is far more tolerant of being deployed and then forgotten about.

One must seriously wonder what alternate reality of PC based computing Jamie suddenly dropped in from.

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[jedidiah]

Yet somehow they muddled through the days of DOS and AppleDOS.

Once you get over the culture shock of make, downloading and installing software for Unix is no more complex or intimidating than dealing with InstallShield. Past that point, Linux is using the same interfaces present under Windows.

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[Lemmy Caution]

One must seriously wonder what alternate reality of PC based computing Jamie suddenly dropped in from.

Lisp machines. If you don't know, you'll never understand what could have been. And you'll never know how fucked up things really are.

Re:I hope they've considered all of the

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

JWZ himself said it best: linux is only free if your time has no value.

This rates as a troll, or at least startlingly misinformed. JWZ said this circa 1995, when the state-of-the-art in packaging was .TGZ, and the only real configuration tools were XF86Config and vi.

How long is this going to be regurgitated by second-hand accounts of the Unix-Haters (sic.) Handbook?

Do your own thinking, and validate your criticisms. I admire JWZ too, but he has always shot from the hip - and this is just plain stale to boot!

Re:What's most interesting...

[yintercept]

It's the Free Beer loving software pirate that lives within deep within the Spanish psyche that's driven them to OSS.

Isn't it the same pirate spirit that attracts most /. users to Linux. My bet is that a third of the /.ers have a parrot sitting on their shoulders as they hack, a tenth have a false eye earned in MUD challenge, and a good 70% say "har" when they think a post is funny.

A hardy and light hearted bunch they be. But if ye break the prirate code (GPL) then to to plank with ye mateys.

Re:The desktop-revolution stays where it is

[WetCat]

Did you try new Mandrake Linux for example?

Maintaining XP is much much worse... especially its OEM stripped mode when you have only one big C drive and a backup CD that allow you to only recreate that big C drive...

The cost of free-as-in-beer software

[The Monster]

linux is only free if your time has no value.

That is precisely why Open Source software is cheapest in the most economically-depressed areas. For the money that would otherwise go to licensing fees, you can hire and train lot of local talent to run things. And becasuse it's OS, they can learn it inside and out, instead of just learning the interface that has been exposed to them.

Not good

[sanity_slipping]

This isn't necessarily a good thing.

Sure, it may seem like a good thing now, but you just wait five years, when suddenly all of the good Linux jobs will be taken by those darned Spanish!

What Mexico did wrong.

[damu]

I remember back when wired had some stories about the innovative change which Mexico was trying to make, in most schools. To bring Linux to the forefront and allow all school children to have access to a computer running Linux. What happened? After poop management, little to no training at the particular schools, and very little support from the actual implementors, most computers now are running win95 or a derivative there of.


This, on paper, seems like a great idea, however to actually pull it off it is going to be very difficult, and there needs to be some strong support from the very top people, if not, this move will suffer the same faith which it had in Mexico. Buena suerte mis amigos. dam()

Ah the old crashing routine...

[rebelcool]

You'd think this would have started dying off after the release of Win2k over 2 years ago.

Win2k and XP rarely crash. I run 2K..the only time I reboot is when I either apply patches (every couple months), or am replacing faulty hardware.

Actually my record with crashing has been far worse using KDE or GNOME.

Umm... sure... whatever...

[Danse]

I learned computers using DOS. I then moved on to Win 3.1. Then to Win95. I learned as I went. Someone could learn Linux or any other Unix-like OS the same way. Start with the basics and move on to the more complicated stuff.

Which version of Debian?

[ukryule]

Odd timing, given that Debian 3.0 (Woody) is due to be released (fingers crossed) on the 1st May.

Have they burnt their own (nearly)3.0 or gone back to the old 2.2?

Of course the neat thing about Debian is that it is possible to create your own pre-3.0 CD, and then it's a one-liner to upgrade to the full release when it appears. However I suspect they've 'played safe' and gone with the old (released in 2000) version.

Microsoft and Mexico

[Meech]

The other day, the NY Times had an article about how Microsoft wanted to help out Mexico get online. I wonder if this had anything to do with it.

Here is a link, (sorry but there is a registration)
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/17/technology/17MEX I.html

Nope, English

[jcsehak]

Actually, the vast majority of pirates were English-- Henry Morgan, Captain Kidd, Blackbeard (Edward Teach), Black Bart (Bartholemew Roberts), Edward England, Henry Every, etc. Just about all the famous ones. Spain mostly got screwed by the pirates when they were privateers (privateering was the practice of looting ships of an enemy country while at war with them. You got a special commision from the king and plundered away. This was a very cheap way to increase a countries standing navy). Of course, when the warring ended, the privateers had nowhere to go (since there were no unemployment benefits for the equivelant of dot-commers those days) and turned pirate, screwing everybody! Most notably, the East India Company (the closest thing to Microsoft back then). But the public ate it up, since in those days (late 1600's), 75% of Britian's national income went to barely 20% of the population.

And since I'm now miles off topic (sniff, is that my karma burning?) without a gps or even an astrolabe, I'll also mention that there are no recorded incidents of pirates making anyone walk the plank. Apparently it was made up by storytellers.

Oh well, just some useless information that might be interesting...

Re:Nope, English

[jcsehak]

And the pirates got em both! Yarr!

Seriously, anybody else think that "pirating" is a bit too strong a word for copying virtual information? I mean, sure, it's pretty close to stealing vast sums of gold, merchandise and supplies, torture, murder, rape and making war against your own country's navy, but, I dunno, maybe I'm just looking at it from the inside, but it doesn't seem *quite* as bad to me.

Linux extramadura

[pubjames]

Appears that these guys actually have their own Linux distribution called Linex. I think this is actually the distribution that will be distributed to schools etc. I expect it is based on Debian.

If you can read Spanish, there's more discussion about this on the Spanish version of Slashdot, Barrapunto And here's the Extramadura LUG.

It's great they have their "own" version of Linux - people are more likely to use it because they are proud of their region. Of course because 95% of people are clueless when it comes to computers, they will probably think that it has been invented there, just as many people believe Bill Gates invented "Windows". But in this case it's a good thing if people use it out of pride and it boosts uptake of Linux.

By the way, Extramadura is I believe the poorest region of Europe, not just Spain. But they have great weather, wine and food there, and the people really know how to have a good time (which could be why it's one of the poorest regions...)

Re:Linux extramadura

[pubjames]

That's right:

barra = slash
punto = dot

barrapunto = slashdot

Re:Linux extramadura

[pubjames]

You're badly outdated... perhaps in the 40s... not anymore.

It depends what you consider Europe. Of the countries currently in the European Union, then Extramadura is still one of the poorest regions. If you include the countries in Eastern Europe that might enter in the Union in the next round, then you're right.

Even so, Extramadura has been very poor even until quite recently - certainly much more recently than the 40's. Here's a paper from someone at the Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, which says Extramadura had a GDP 50% lower than the European average in the 1990s. So sorry, it is still a very poor place, even recently. This is just a fact. I have relatives there and can vouch for the fact that there's still a lot of poverty there.

Re:Linux extramadura

[pubjames]

Link

Best way to get this going in the rest of spain?

[shomon2]

Hi,

I can see from the article on mexico, and from my own experience trying to propose a free software alternative to a non profit organisation, that the problem of adopting a completely new or different operating system is not just about the price of the software. So my question to any experts out there is : how do you propose people get this going in other provinces - from getting the proposal out(I live in barcelona - I bet the local catalan linux translation group would help...), lobbying for it, getting political support, and getting the smarts and the time for people to install it, and from there to the point where everyone is actually happily using it and benefiting from it?

If it can be done, it's probably a great benefit, but I can see how it's just a waste of money if it's not done right, and especially, if it's just not the right time or place to do it...

Ale

It's true...

[aquarian]

Windows is not exactly trouble free or completely user-friendly, even for fairly advanced users. Training is needed no matter what. Eliminate the license fees, and you can invest more in training. Or hardware...

Re:I wish more people would do it.

[KjetilK]

Well, Norway isn't among the poorest countries on earth, though research and education is not getting it's share of the wealth. Yet, there is a project going on to get Linux into schools, supported by some good computer firms as well as governmental grants. They're still testing.

A friend of mine got Woody installed on all the computers where he is currently working, he is the only teacher aged under 50, but the other teachers love it, and they will probably make a complete switch to Linux (the Debian Woody-based distro the School Linux project is producing) in a short while.

There has allready been a few schools in Norway that has made the transition, for example Høle. They're still struggling with some governmental standards requiring M$ products, though.

Re: This issue is OLD as well as the answer :)

[fferreres]

If it's a real tech problem you can solve it using ssh shell and motely fixing what is wrong, asuming the support people are talented. If it's a client problem thing unrelated to you (can read friends email), then it's a PR thing. You answer because you care about your ignorant customer, but it's not really your fault, nor Windows nor Linux.

Actually, no

[HiThere]

Windows was viable on the desktop. Then they changed the license.

I no longer accept that Windows is viable on the desktop. Nor will any system be where you must give someone else the right to "add, remove, alter, or delete" any files that they choose without either asking your consent, or even notifying you.

Sorry.

Re:Best way to get this going in the rest of spain

[opkool]

Maybe then you should go to http://www.cat-linux.com and join the mailing list. They are probably looking for voluntiers to translate or help with Linux.

Re:Translations

[opkool]

Then, maybe you can help the translators, submiting "patches" to the documentation.

Your help will be probably welcome (and badly needed.)

Contact LuCAS here: http://lucas.hispalinux.esfor more information

Re:Installing apps

[Rhinobird]

Uninstalling? Uh, I haven't gotten that far yet.