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Spyware Fights Back
sparcv9 writes "According to the latest issue of Spyware Weekly, the Radlight media player not only searches your hard drive for Adaware, but will uninstall it if found. How do they attempt to legitimize this? By including a clause in their EULA that reads: 'You are not allowed to use any third party program (e.g Ad-aware) to uninstall application bundled with RadLight. Such programs will be removed. If you want to uninstall them, you may do so via Add/Remove in Windows' Control Panel.' Yes, that's right. Not only do they say you are not allowed to use Adaware to remove their bundled apps, but they will forcibly remove Adaware for you to make sure you don't!" There's also a Newsbytes story.
Looks like we need Radlight-Lite (c.f. Kazza!)
Or Winamp of course. I've never even heard of RadLight
hack into a spyware company's server? That in effect is what they are doing to my computer... I don't have any moral qualms about doing such things, but would the law care? I guess it also makes a difference where the spyware company is located, but what if it is the US?
I would like to give these bastards a taste of their own medicine...
This really isn't all that new. I'm the computer nerd in my dorm, so every week or two, someone's computer starts acting funny, and I'll have already installed Ad-Aware, and it's just that the spyware has inserted itself into Ad-Aware's ignore list, so it doesn't get touched.
If they can uninstall anti-spyware during the installation process, what is to stop M$ IE from uninstalling netscape when you install it? I can't believe that someone else thought of this idea first?
-- Adam
EULA are used like a wash-it-out taking all responsability and making your computer not even your own.
EULA may not even be legal in most country
The problem is that since nobody fight the legality of the EULA, spyware and other abuser (or even proprietary OS maker) will make "you" consummer accept more and more in the EULA until it comes cracking down.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
But then isn't RadLite an Ad-Aware circumvention device?
My brain hurts.
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
...putting an insanely unreasonable clause in your EULA is a form of marketing now. Before today I had never heard of Radlight. No such thing as bad publicity, I suppose.
This story immediately reminded me of some of the RIAA plans to hack your home machines (also mentioned here). I can't wait for the day when the big virus/trojan du jour hammering corporate networks and bringing down servers right and left turns out to be from the RIAA or MPAA.
"We were just protecting our copyrights, it's not our fault that your payroll files were lost!"
Zero tolerance equals zero intelligence
This activity breaches the computer misuse act in the UK.
It affects the running of the computer without the user's express consent.
This act is awaiting some decent case to pummel some insiduous little pointless company selling stuff without a unique selling point.
To Whom It May Concern,
1. Spyware stuff.
during the last few months the popularity of word "spyware" has
raised amazingly. Actually, only a few peopla know what the programs considered
as "spyware" do, but the name just sounds good, doesn't it ?
SPYWARE... SPYWARE... hmm, I'm pretty scared... maybe I should stop
watching the american thrillers. Someone is spying me... he knows
what I'm doing, knows my girlfriends telephone number, knows where do I live,
he just controls my life...HE KNOWS !!!!
But take a closer look at the "spyware" programs. e.g. SaveNow.
SaveNow HELPS people when bying over the internet. You want to buy
a pack (a few hundreds) of recordable CDs.... searching on the net..
AH, here...Oh, wait a moment, a popup window appears. When I click
on the popup-window I can buy a pack of my favourite CDs and save
up to 15% That's cool. I would even call it "HELPWARE". I'm happy.
I got my CDs, some people got some money and everyone is happy.
Some people say it collects some information and sends it over the
internet... BUT. Has anyone "recorded" the data sent over the net ?
I use it and didn't notice any data being stolen or anything happened
to my data. Only my SaveNow database is growing and offering me more
and more advantageous purchases.
The banner advertising is widely spread on the internet. The targeted
advertising like SaveNow does is much more efficient and much better payed.
But some people don't like when the others are profiting.
Ah... but the saveNow is not the only "HELPWARE" out there..
Yes, there are MANY of them. And they are struggling for each user.
And suddenly a programm appears to "uninstall helpware" or "MAKE YOUR
COMPUTER SAFE" or "PROTECT YOU". But it doesn't uninstall all of the "helpware"
programs, because SOME OF THEM are considered SAFE.... !!!! SOME OF THEM !!!
And I ask : Why are they considered SAFE? What is considered SAFE?
2. HELPWARE as a solution for free programs
2 years ago, when we started working on RadLight, we had no problems at all.
We were hosted on a free Slovak server. The bandwidth bas pretty low
but as we had only 50 visitors a day, everyone succeeded downloading
his program. Some time later the first download-CRC-FAILED mails began
to arrive.. was it my fault ? The server problems began.
A friend managed to get a server in Germany. It was a hot connection
and the troubles were gone but the people downloaded RadLight more
and more. As we have reached the 10GB/day traffic the server has died...
And we had to decide : Either we will be regular Shareware or
we will bundle other software.
The first solution would lead to absolute popularity loss. Because the
people are VERY unlikely to pay if they don't really need to.
We decided to be FREE SHAREWARE but in a year of being FSW we got
only some 300USD what is really FEW. I don't want to force anyone to pay me,
because I wanted RL to be free, but we really couldn't afford to pay ANY server.
That's why we decided to bundle SaveNow, thinking that people
realize we had no other choice. Many people wrote MANY MAILS saying
how is RadLight cool and how happy they are. But are they the only one to be
happy ? WHY CAN'T I BE HAPPY TOO ? WHY SHOULD I HAVE PROBLEMS of
making programs for people I don't even know ? But the people
don't understand that installing HELPWARE is a way of their "THANKS".
I am REALLY GRATEFUL to those people who registered RadLight = donated
money to support RadLight, because the money we get from the bundle based
on our userbase are only enough for paying my phone bill and the server
we have now, especially to Todd Keller who even offered us a mirror hosting.
I think that he is one of the few people knowing what problems does it make
to host popular program.
As I say : In these times the targeted advertising bundling is the only solution
for popular programs if they want to stay free.
3. Adaware app.
Let's take a closer look at this application.
The general description is : "An application that uninstalls spyware" or
"An application that uninstalls helpware" or "An application that uninstalls
programs being installed with your permission" because YOU are the one to
decide whether to install them or not (at least in RadLight case). It's
popularity is based on scarying people using the word "SPYWARE", based
on considering users as not very clever.
When an unexperienced user runs adaware and finds some app described
as spyware he is really likely to click on remove button, because of the
word "SPYWARE"... something terrible. I'd wonder what would happen
if the latest windows version was described as "SPYWARE" ??
And I ask again ? Why should I trust a program that looks into every directory
on my harddisk, into every registry key, into my mails (it even wanted
to delete my personal mails to WhenU) searching for SOMETHING rather than
believing in MYSELF ? I felt like the local SWAT team just went through my house...
When I AM THE ONE who installed the HELPWARE program, IT SHOULD BE INSTALLED.
When I don't want to use it anymore, I can uninstall it either manually or going
to CONTROL PANEL\ADD REMOVE PROGRAMS.
As adaware's behaviour was hostile to our bundle, I had to defend.
Other programs like KaZaa do bundle too. However if a half of their
bundled programs are killed in action they still have enough money
but my money income is enough for my sister to buy chewing gum.
4. Some facts to think about.
RadLight's top downloads count was about 45000 per week only from download.COM
- that made 1.0MB x 45000 / 7 = 6.428 GB traffic per day only from download.com
Adaware now
- 0.85MB x 250 000 / 7 = 30.3 GB each day = 910.7 GB per month.
- go and check some server providers how much would that cost !!
- adaware has some $15 PRO version, but I STRONGLY DOUBT it would
be enough to pay such a bill
- WHO gives them the MONEY ??
- Isn't here some concurency destroying trick ?
- Why are some helpware programs considered spyware and some don't
Helpware
- As far as I know only few programs have bundled helpware mandatory
- so if you DON'T LIKE ANY HELPWARE just DON'T INSTALL IT
General about software
- I've heard a saying : "about 99% of computer problems sit in front
of the monitor"
RadLight again
- point of RadLight is to make watching of your video files easier
and better than ever
- point of RadLight is NOT to fight in any financial, political, social,
economical, rasistic or any other war
- I as the author of RadLight am sorry for users being scared of word
"spyware" but I don't feel sorry for any uninstalled copy of
program whose point is TO KILL.
- the 5.2 License agreement clearly tells that adaware is not allowed
with RadLight.
You are the one to decide what software do you want and what software
do you use.
Justin, Josh, John, (what ever your name is, your sig doesn't show up here on the reply form)
I am the programmer that would be so unedthical to write profit like that. I would like you to realize the importance of the statment that you just made. If I don't want my program to reside on the same disk as another, I am allowed to refuse my install until the other application in gone. I may, as a matter of convenince to you, prompt you with that information, and then start the uninstall process for you. One way or the other one of the programs is not going to be on that machine at the end of the day. I can be the biggest biggot you have ever seen, and still I am allowed to demand that my application not be installed on a machine with a particular application.
Now the problem is if I uninstall it without your knowledge. They are not uninstalling the application as part of thier install routine. Thier installer waits on the other application to be uninstalled before it writes it's own space. It actually prompted me and allowed me to control the uninstall. When I canceled the uninstall, redlight stoped it's own install with a message like "when you are ready to get rid of adaware...".
It's not illigal, and it's not unethical.
It seems these days EULA's are tricky bits of text, with many conflicting positions over how they hold up. Many software companies defend their actions, such as Radlight in this case, by saying "It was in the EULA." This is the case with most programs with spyware. They just write somewhere in the EULA that you are agreeing to install the spyware.
But are people who use Ad-aware and break the EULA not guilty of anything? It is an agreement that you have to agree to in order to use the application. You agree to installing and running their spyware and ad supported program, then break that agreement by using Ad-Aware to remove it. God forbid someone wants to receive something in return (in the form of ad revenue) for their program which you use. I personally hate ads being forced on me, but this seems no different than cracked warez applications. In both cases you are using the program, but denying the creators any sort of revenue from yourself.
In both of these cases the EULA seems to bear absolutely no value in the end.
If they have delisted Kazaa for it's deceptive practices, surely CNET should remove RadLight for similar reasons. This is way over the top.
Facts About Food Labeling
Under regulations from the Food and Drug Administration of the Department of Health and Human Services and the Food Safety and Inspection Service of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the food label offers more complete, useful and accurate nutrition information than ever before.
With today's food labels, consumers get:
Somebody should take that list and create the End User License Agreement Act, in which they list what MUST be clear and concise in the EULA. Until somebody passes a law requiring standardization, rogue software makers will continue to use the EULA to hide revelations of spyware.
You can come to the discussion/forum here on this thread and show him your support for Ad-aware and why it is important NOT to piss off the users of Ad-aware.
I believe that the guy(s) can come to his/their senses and have some corrective actions regarding his sw soon.
Come and show him your love,
Annmite
Look, when you install something on someone's system - granted, no one really reads EULAs and that's a problem in itself not entirely the fault of the end user but the vendor too - that they don't know about, then it's spyware. EULAs are garbage. They are totally legal mumbo jumbo. And more than not, M$ is a prime example, Yahoo too, they're not in the best interest of the user, but arm twisting favor of the vendor. Think this is wrong? Well, then howcome I can't get a laptop from a big vendor w/out a copy of Windoze on it?
By tucking in little clauses that say people can't use a program to remove your bundled software is bullshit and not in the end users best interest. Period! Sell your app then if you need money. Bombarding people with ads will just get you annoyed users.
As far as distributing/hosting problems, there are plenty of apps out there that are mirrored in many different places. Sure, it might be a pain in the ass to update 20 mirrors, but that's what they're there for - so u don't have 10GB d/l probs on one server.
It's nice that you want to keep yr app 'free', but does it really deserve to be? I don't know of many or any GNU or GPL apps that have such bullshit EULAs as RadLight.
If I was Ad-aware, I'd put a counter-counter clause in my EULA forcing you guys to pay me a million dollars or something for removing my software. A registry setting or something similar could confirm that my app was installed first. Sounds stupid? Well, IT IS! This eye for an eye approach sucks!
Whatever, you have your reasons, but screw your users over and go poking around and intentionally delete software on their machines and you're asking for trouble. If you did that to my machine, I'd wait till you came to my town and kick your ass!! I'm sure others feel the same way!
And btw, I don't want anonymous or not statistics sent to some company so they can better understand how to help me purchase better. Number one rule, don't trust companies to be your friend. Because, like M$ and others, they only have the bottom line in mind and will screw ya when they get the chance. I don't find much value of having some app know that I want such and such cd's and have it go fetch for me. I know what I want and where to get it. That is the only thing I can trust.
This guy has decided that his revenue model is bundling his app with a third party program. This third party program is generally considered spyware but, at the same time, can be considered a legitamite app (just not the one that you were downloading).
He _does_ have a legitamite gripe about adaware. That is, with or without the user's permission, adaware conspicously removes a portion of his application (specifically the part that presumeably pays him).
This is fine, as far as I'm concerened. However, his installer is ass-backwards.
How would I have done it (note: I wouldn't have done it at all, but to each his own): When the installer launches have it check for the presense of Adaware. If adaware is installed then tell the user something to the effect of "Aborting install: Adaware detected." This way it is (a) clear that the program does not play well with Adaware and (b) the author has a gripe about adaware.
Instead he has written an installer that performs a virual function (destroying software without the users knowledge or permission) and is trying to legitamize it by pointing his finger at Lavasoft (adaware). Even if you accept his reasoning that Adaware is the evil culprit, that does not make his program any less evil. He is selling a video player and not an ad-remover remover.
Basically he just found a whole new way to piss on his userbase.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Wrong, right out of the gate.
Shrinkwrap "licenses" are a legal fiction with extremely shaky basis in law, and no basis in ethics, much less common courtesy. It is a fiction with a twenty year history, but a fiction nonetheless. See my long-ish editorial on this subject for a more detailed analysis.
Moreover, a California court recently ruled that, no matter how persistently and shrilly you refer to the transaction as a "license", if the behavior you engaged in has all the characteristics of a retail sale, then the transaction is a sale. Whether the "license" effectively alters the terms of the sale after the fact is a question unanswered by the courts. However, any person with even a smidgen of common courtesy toward their fellow man will agree that no such "contract" should be held as valid.
So, no, the EULA doesn't save RadLight's legal posterior.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Some unsuspecting user installs some spyware application (i.e. pop up that says "you need blah blah to do this blah blah gator") on a government owned computer.
And what happens when that spyware sees starts learning about some internal intranet sites hosted by the DOD or something?
I can see this happenning and the US Govt. going nuts.
Their logo appears to be using a frame from "Pulp Fiction". I wonder if they got permission for that? If not, I'm sure somebody in Hollywood would like to talk to them. *hint* *hint*
If you don't know who to contact, set up your own "Pulp Fiction" fan-site with lots of media clips. Wait until somebody sends you a "cease and desist" order. Then give then RadLights address. Think of it as an "Internet Improvement" project.
been there, done that. We had an alpha machine running linux for some vizualation stuff where I work (trying to get a cluster to drive an immersadesk, this was several years ago). It initally had one hard drive with linux on it. We added a second drive for windows and proceded to install NT, it hapilly informed us we had an invalid filesystem and it was reformating it to ntfs, it never asked, it just did it (because, of course on the alpha's back then basically every one wither ran true64 or NT, it reconized it was neither so it "helped" us). We lost nearly three months of work because of this. I've also had windows 98 "fail" twice during install and trash my drive's partition table and file systems, strange that it only did it when linux was installed (what I would call a qui-ki-dink - pronounce kinda like a coincidence, basically something that could just have been a coincidence but not likely)
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
If something like this is enforceable in a real court, then it's open season on your HD. You want to stunt the consumer sofware industry 20 years? Do something like these people are... On a large scale, you could seriously screw up an OS with all the different little programs trying to destroy one another. I can see it now... The second generation of employing countermeasures, sensing when a program that will attempt to destroy the installing program! *sigh*
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Did anyone else notice the similarity between Radlight's "eye" logo, and the "lidless eye" of Sauron? Coincidence? I think not.
MS does remove your software when Media Player installs: the WMP installer looks for hacked versions of the Fraunhofer mp3 codec, and deletes them if found.
Human/Ranger/Zangband