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Spyware Fights Back
sparcv9 writes "According to the latest issue of Spyware Weekly, the Radlight media player not only searches your hard drive for Adaware, but will uninstall it if found. How do they attempt to legitimize this? By including a clause in their EULA that reads: 'You are not allowed to use any third party program (e.g Ad-aware) to uninstall application bundled with RadLight. Such programs will be removed. If you want to uninstall them, you may do so via Add/Remove in Windows' Control Panel.' Yes, that's right. Not only do they say you are not allowed to use Adaware to remove their bundled apps, but they will forcibly remove Adaware for you to make sure you don't!" There's also a Newsbytes story.
and because they mention it in the EULA doesn't mean it's legal. Anyway, it's not like this player will be actually downloaded much.
You're going to see more and more companies trying this sort of thing to prohibit you having software that they consider threatening on your computer. AOL used to screw with the setting of any competing ISP's on your system (on "accident"), IE used to cripple Netscape (on "accident"), and MSFT is now saying that you can't use some of their technology in conjunction with ANY GPL software. If we can't maintain our monopoly one way, we'll try another. This of course is a nasty step forward that even billg hasn't tried, but only because he knew there would be hell to pay. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
...Microsoft, sensing that they can copy another great idea, changed its EULA today to uninstall Linux when any of its software is run on a machine in the same building.
-- We live in a world where lemonade is artificial and soap has real lemon.
It's one thing to add programs and fill your disk up with junk. But to actually remove a properly functioning, legal program like Ad-Aware almost seems like a targeted virus.
And why can't you uninstall parts of their program? What happened to custom installation?
This seems illegal to me.
If I weren't nailed to the penis, I'd be pushing up the daisies!
If you were saavy enough to download ad aware in first place, what is to stop you from reinstalling it and running it again once you've installed this product? The only ones who are going to get stuck with this spyware are people who didn't think to download ad-aware in the first place. Those who lose their copy to this will just chuckle and redownload it and remove the crapware that got installed with the product.
Basically these guys wasted a lot of effort for naught and just end up looking like scum to boot.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
This really isn't all that new. I'm the computer nerd in my dorm, so every week or two, someone's computer starts acting funny, and I'll have already installed Ad-Aware, and it's just that the spyware has inserted itself into Ad-Aware's ignore list, so it doesn't get touched.
Ad-Aware has released a new version that will prevent RadLight from effecting it. Of course, that's obviously not the point here.
Did anybody else notice the page that shows the first and last names of everyone who's registered? This company doesn't even respect the privacy of PAYING customers... now that's _LOW_
.. making Ad-Aware a circumvention device. Somebody should turn them in. I'd pay to see that trial.
http://216.194.92.96/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=226 (Radlight)
Here the programmer of Radlight handwaves a lot, claiming it was just to point out it was possible to do so (the removal of other apps while installing) and that if he hadn't someone else would.. geeee..
He's been caught redhanded, he ought to atleast apologise properly, and promtly stop doing it
Venlig Hilsen / Regards
John Hinge - shayera /
"Buffy I love you... Please God No!" S
Im about ready to come up with an
....guess what the judge told the car wash owner, wou can say whatever you want on a sign posted however conspicuosly you want, you are in fact still legally responsible, UNLESS Mr...signed a piece of paper waiving that right in FRONT of a witness, did Mr....do this ? Uhhh no your honor....Judgment in favor of plantiff $490.....next case!
E(nd)V(endor)A(ccess)A(greement)
For my computer that superceeds any EULA and the vendors acceptance will be gained prior (on a click through link at in the signature of the email I order software through.
Order X program from the author
At the bottom of the email is a link stating
something like (and of course be just as obstuficating) as the EULA's are that any software being installed on the computer this mail is originating from must accept the terms in the EVAA (access to MY , get it MY f***ing computer) and that sale or distribution of any software to this computer(the same one you are purchasing the software from) is an acceptance of the EVAA (and a link to the same)
Wrap up and invert a EULA , one of the nasties most un-understandable ones you can find, and post it at that link, keep copies of the email correspondence and buy it.
At this point your EVAA WILL in fact superceed the EULA, is this legal, yep !
Will it hold up in court ? Let me just say just as much as a click through EULA will..
If a EULA says I have to let them suck my toes, do I have to allow it ? No ! Why not ? Same reasons as "not responsible for lost stolen article" signs arent worth the plastic theyre printed on. You can say whatever the hell you want holding it up in court is another story.
Next time your rearview mirror or antenna gets ripped off in an automatic car wash and the manager say but the sign is right there say, ok fine, write it down. I took this to court once, on a new car I was dammed if I'd pay 250$ deductible on
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
To Whom It May Concern,
1. Spyware stuff.
during the last few months the popularity of word "spyware" has
raised amazingly. Actually, only a few peopla know what the programs considered
as "spyware" do, but the name just sounds good, doesn't it ?
SPYWARE... SPYWARE... hmm, I'm pretty scared... maybe I should stop
watching the american thrillers. Someone is spying me... he knows
what I'm doing, knows my girlfriends telephone number, knows where do I live,
he just controls my life...HE KNOWS !!!!
But take a closer look at the "spyware" programs. e.g. SaveNow.
SaveNow HELPS people when bying over the internet. You want to buy
a pack (a few hundreds) of recordable CDs.... searching on the net..
AH, here...Oh, wait a moment, a popup window appears. When I click
on the popup-window I can buy a pack of my favourite CDs and save
up to 15% That's cool. I would even call it "HELPWARE". I'm happy.
I got my CDs, some people got some money and everyone is happy.
Some people say it collects some information and sends it over the
internet... BUT. Has anyone "recorded" the data sent over the net ?
I use it and didn't notice any data being stolen or anything happened
to my data. Only my SaveNow database is growing and offering me more
and more advantageous purchases.
The banner advertising is widely spread on the internet. The targeted
advertising like SaveNow does is much more efficient and much better payed.
But some people don't like when the others are profiting.
Ah... but the saveNow is not the only "HELPWARE" out there..
Yes, there are MANY of them. And they are struggling for each user.
And suddenly a programm appears to "uninstall helpware" or "MAKE YOUR
COMPUTER SAFE" or "PROTECT YOU". But it doesn't uninstall all of the "helpware"
programs, because SOME OF THEM are considered SAFE.... !!!! SOME OF THEM !!!
And I ask : Why are they considered SAFE? What is considered SAFE?
2. HELPWARE as a solution for free programs
2 years ago, when we started working on RadLight, we had no problems at all.
We were hosted on a free Slovak server. The bandwidth bas pretty low
but as we had only 50 visitors a day, everyone succeeded downloading
his program. Some time later the first download-CRC-FAILED mails began
to arrive.. was it my fault ? The server problems began.
A friend managed to get a server in Germany. It was a hot connection
and the troubles were gone but the people downloaded RadLight more
and more. As we have reached the 10GB/day traffic the server has died...
And we had to decide : Either we will be regular Shareware or
we will bundle other software.
The first solution would lead to absolute popularity loss. Because the
people are VERY unlikely to pay if they don't really need to.
We decided to be FREE SHAREWARE but in a year of being FSW we got
only some 300USD what is really FEW. I don't want to force anyone to pay me,
because I wanted RL to be free, but we really couldn't afford to pay ANY server.
That's why we decided to bundle SaveNow, thinking that people
realize we had no other choice. Many people wrote MANY MAILS saying
how is RadLight cool and how happy they are. But are they the only one to be
happy ? WHY CAN'T I BE HAPPY TOO ? WHY SHOULD I HAVE PROBLEMS of
making programs for people I don't even know ? But the people
don't understand that installing HELPWARE is a way of their "THANKS".
I am REALLY GRATEFUL to those people who registered RadLight = donated
money to support RadLight, because the money we get from the bundle based
on our userbase are only enough for paying my phone bill and the server
we have now, especially to Todd Keller who even offered us a mirror hosting.
I think that he is one of the few people knowing what problems does it make
to host popular program.
As I say : In these times the targeted advertising bundling is the only solution
for popular programs if they want to stay free.
3. Adaware app.
Let's take a closer look at this application.
The general description is : "An application that uninstalls spyware" or
"An application that uninstalls helpware" or "An application that uninstalls
programs being installed with your permission" because YOU are the one to
decide whether to install them or not (at least in RadLight case). It's
popularity is based on scarying people using the word "SPYWARE", based
on considering users as not very clever.
When an unexperienced user runs adaware and finds some app described
as spyware he is really likely to click on remove button, because of the
word "SPYWARE"... something terrible. I'd wonder what would happen
if the latest windows version was described as "SPYWARE" ??
And I ask again ? Why should I trust a program that looks into every directory
on my harddisk, into every registry key, into my mails (it even wanted
to delete my personal mails to WhenU) searching for SOMETHING rather than
believing in MYSELF ? I felt like the local SWAT team just went through my house...
When I AM THE ONE who installed the HELPWARE program, IT SHOULD BE INSTALLED.
When I don't want to use it anymore, I can uninstall it either manually or going
to CONTROL PANEL\ADD REMOVE PROGRAMS.
As adaware's behaviour was hostile to our bundle, I had to defend.
Other programs like KaZaa do bundle too. However if a half of their
bundled programs are killed in action they still have enough money
but my money income is enough for my sister to buy chewing gum.
4. Some facts to think about.
RadLight's top downloads count was about 45000 per week only from download.COM
- that made 1.0MB x 45000 / 7 = 6.428 GB traffic per day only from download.com
Adaware now
- 0.85MB x 250 000 / 7 = 30.3 GB each day = 910.7 GB per month.
- go and check some server providers how much would that cost !!
- adaware has some $15 PRO version, but I STRONGLY DOUBT it would
be enough to pay such a bill
- WHO gives them the MONEY ??
- Isn't here some concurency destroying trick ?
- Why are some helpware programs considered spyware and some don't
Helpware
- As far as I know only few programs have bundled helpware mandatory
- so if you DON'T LIKE ANY HELPWARE just DON'T INSTALL IT
General about software
- I've heard a saying : "about 99% of computer problems sit in front
of the monitor"
RadLight again
- point of RadLight is to make watching of your video files easier
and better than ever
- point of RadLight is NOT to fight in any financial, political, social,
economical, rasistic or any other war
- I as the author of RadLight am sorry for users being scared of word
"spyware" but I don't feel sorry for any uninstalled copy of
program whose point is TO KILL.
- the 5.2 License agreement clearly tells that adaware is not allowed
with RadLight.
You are the one to decide what software do you want and what software
do you use.
If you must use a separate divx player, i find this one to do the job just nicely
BSPlay
Exercise caution when modding this message up: the author acts like a jerk when his karma is excellent.
There's already a name for software that, when installed on a computer, goes through and deletes other data on the machine unbeknownst to the user. It's called a virus.
Just because it's stated in their EULA that they can do that, doesn't allow them to circumvent the law. Of course IANAL, but it sounds like this struggle has gotten to the point where it is legally challengeable.
here I'm again. You have posted really good posts. There are intelligent reactions to my hints and I must admit that I have a bit underestimated how powerfull userbase Adaware has.
I'm sure that many of you ask, WHAT WAS THE REASON of KILLING adaware right after each start NOT looking into default directory (like some people think) but using the uninstall registry keys and uninstaller LOG file (this is a hint for adaware developers to make it invisible) ?
Actually, the point was NOT to destroy the adaware . This is almost impossible. BUT TO SHOW WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF THE PROGRAMS START UNINSTALLING EACHOTHER. As I believe that some of the "spyware" are just reguler legal programs I really feel for their authors to see how their program is being uninstalled. I WANTED ADAWARE TO SEE IT TOO and to revalue their pose to their "enemies". I understand that ads brought by some programs aren't doing the clean job and don't have approprietary uninstalling possibilites and they NEED TO BE REMOVED BY THE HARDEST WAY, but NOT all of them are such rude. When removing legal software (as you say now I remove adaware), having all what polite software should have (polite installer, EULA, Uninstaller and full description), it may be really VERY UNPLEASANT.
They put me on the MOST WANTED list ? Yes, that's what I expected. It is natural and if they didn't do that it would look STRANGE, wouldn't it.
They removed me from CNet ? Oh yes, again, I expected problems but you all must admit that adaware is a "remover" too.
They wanted to send me to all AntiVirus companies ? Heh, detecting a "virus" having EXEPath in regisry and no other files copied in any directory would be pretty easy, don't you think ?
You all are angry on me ? Yes, I expected it. But if I didn't do this and only started to talk about my opinions I would be just SOME ANOTHER GUY SAYING SOME BULLSHIT and ignored (my life-experience with many people). Generaly the people must see the acts first and then they will PERHAPS start thinking more.
The non-adaware-killing RadLight was compiled 5 seconds after the adaware-killing version. I thought that people would find it out immedieately but it took more than a week until they noticed. It will be released immediately and no more software-removing actions will be taken. I can only hope that Lavasoft will think about the reasons why this happened.
I know i will loose many of users who will ignore my player but It will at least solve my server problems and I may rest for a while.
I can apologize now
" I apologize to LavaSoft for all inconviences that happened by my RadLight software when removing the ADAWARE application silently and without users request.
I apologize to all RadLight users who may be disappointed or hurt by these events.
I apologize to all ADAWARE users whose adaware was removed when launched RadLight.
Your indignation is an evidence for me that I succeeded and now, at least the people who read messages on this forum understand how does it feel when YOUR SOFTWARE is being removed.
With friendly regards,
Igor "RadScorpion" Janos
_________________ Non Progredi Est Regredi
I think that means, "all your base are belong to us." ;)
Aside from not owning a car, (which, btw, is an entirely viable option more people should look into), Joe-average can do very little.
In the software universe, however, there are thousands of people who know how to program well enough to FIX intentional, greed-related corporate bullshit problems, and distribute those fixes to anybody who takes the relatively small amount of time required to learn how to implement them.
Why are Hackors demonized by the media? Because they represent an annoying burr, a standing nail which refuses to be brushed away or hammered down. And through this, humanity is prevented from being jammed, (quite so quickly and neatly), into the square holes all neatly prepared for us. Hackors get in the way of the plans of the Control Reality which are being implemented around our ears as we speak.
I am not a programmer. I am not a hacker. But I am proud that this aspect of humanity still exists. I am proud that people are having FUN in this way! (All important!) I salute those who know how to make the machines work for the common benefit, and who have the courage to do so!
A tip of the hat to you all!
-Fantastic Lad
If they have delisted Kazaa for it's deceptive practices, surely CNET should remove RadLight for similar reasons. This is way over the top.
Facts About Food Labeling
Under regulations from the Food and Drug Administration of the Department of Health and Human Services and the Food Safety and Inspection Service of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the food label offers more complete, useful and accurate nutrition information than ever before.
With today's food labels, consumers get:
Somebody should take that list and create the End User License Agreement Act, in which they list what MUST be clear and concise in the EULA. Until somebody passes a law requiring standardization, rogue software makers will continue to use the EULA to hide revelations of spyware.
RadLight offers you and your family a whole line of fine merchandise at the RadLight Online Store . If you've ever felt like you've had too much voluntary control over your daily routine, why not try integrating some of their fine products into your lifestyle?
Take, for instance, this fashionable long-sleeve RadLight t-shirt . It's luxuriously soft, 100% cotton -- and it forcibly ejects from your wardrobe any third-party sweaters, jackets, etc. you might mistakenly slip over it on one of those chilly summer nights. No more hassles choosing what to wear, and think of all the closet space you'll free up.
Or how about this bright and cheery RadLight mug ? Guaranteed to keep your favorite beverage piping hot... as long that beverage is RadLight-branded Maxwell House Regular Roast. All other liquids will be drained through an emergency discharge valve at the bottom of the mug. (Please note: by filling the cup, the consumer absolves RadLight of all liability for any leg/groin/other scalding that may occur.)
And, of course, there's always RadLight's crowing achievement: extra-roomy RadLight boxer shorts . All-cotton, open-fly, and completely impervious to access by any third parties. That's right, only you or an authorized RadLight employee (or an employee/consultant of any of its licensed subsidiaries and partners) will be able to get at what's behind that RadLight logo. Now how's that for peace of mind?
Don't thank them now. That slightly pained smile on your face will be praise enough.
If it is legal, I'm going to start bundling virii, trojans and password stealers with my programs. And include in the EULA that by clicking agree, you waive all responsibility to hold me liable for any damages or problems incurred from using and installing my software.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
1. Spyware stuff.
during the last few months the popularity of word "spyware" has raised amazingly. Actually, only a few peopla know what the programs considered as "spyware" do, but the name just sounds good, doesn't it? SPYWARE... SPYWARE... hmm, I'm pretty scared... maybe I should stop watching the american thrillers. Someone is spying me... he knows what I'm doing, knows my girlfriends telephone number, knows where do I live, he just controls my life...HE KNOWS !!!! But take a closer look at the "spyware" programs. e.g. SaveNow. SaveNow HELPS people when bying over the internet. You want to buy a pack (a few hundreds) of recordable CDs.... searching on the net.. AH, here...Oh, wait a moment, a popup window appears. When I click
on the popup-window I can buy a pack of my favourite CDs and save up to 15% That's cool. I would even call it "HELPWARE". I'm happy.
Oh, so this is one of those people who actually enjoy being interrupted during dinner to recieve a SPECIAL OFFER from company X if they switch phone companies. Now I see, they aren't telemarketers, they're tele-HELPERS!
I got my CDs, some people got some money and everyone is happy. Some people say it collects some information and sends it over the internet... BUT. Has anyone "recorded" the data sent over the net? I use it and didn't notice any data being stolen or anything happened to my data.
Likewise, this guy must be a-okay with having hidden cameras being in his shower. After all, if the data was wired right out of the house and on to the internet straight to some hidden-camera porn site, has anybody in the neighborhood "recorded" that pictures were sent from his household out over the net? He used the shower and might have noticed the camera, but that must be okay because he didn't actually see the pictures leaving the residence.
I'm not going to go on. You already understand the truth, and so does this dishonest money-grubbing scumbag.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
This guy has decided that his revenue model is bundling his app with a third party program. This third party program is generally considered spyware but, at the same time, can be considered a legitamite app (just not the one that you were downloading).
He _does_ have a legitamite gripe about adaware. That is, with or without the user's permission, adaware conspicously removes a portion of his application (specifically the part that presumeably pays him).
This is fine, as far as I'm concerened. However, his installer is ass-backwards.
How would I have done it (note: I wouldn't have done it at all, but to each his own): When the installer launches have it check for the presense of Adaware. If adaware is installed then tell the user something to the effect of "Aborting install: Adaware detected." This way it is (a) clear that the program does not play well with Adaware and (b) the author has a gripe about adaware.
Instead he has written an installer that performs a virual function (destroying software without the users knowledge or permission) and is trying to legitamize it by pointing his finger at Lavasoft (adaware). Even if you accept his reasoning that Adaware is the evil culprit, that does not make his program any less evil. He is selling a video player and not an ad-remover remover.
Basically he just found a whole new way to piss on his userbase.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Wrong, right out of the gate.
Shrinkwrap "licenses" are a legal fiction with extremely shaky basis in law, and no basis in ethics, much less common courtesy. It is a fiction with a twenty year history, but a fiction nonetheless. See my long-ish editorial on this subject for a more detailed analysis.
Moreover, a California court recently ruled that, no matter how persistently and shrilly you refer to the transaction as a "license", if the behavior you engaged in has all the characteristics of a retail sale, then the transaction is a sale. Whether the "license" effectively alters the terms of the sale after the fact is a question unanswered by the courts. However, any person with even a smidgen of common courtesy toward their fellow man will agree that no such "contract" should be held as valid.
So, no, the EULA doesn't save RadLight's legal posterior.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Dear RadLight,
By accepting this message into your email system you agree to allow the embedded script to remove all data, applications and operating systems from your network.
Removal process started.
Have a nice d#* 7j
According to simtel.net the latest version (rl3r52a.exe) does not un-install Ad-Aware. Think the damage has already been done to Radlight's reputation now, though :)