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Spyware Fights Back
sparcv9 writes "According to the latest issue of Spyware Weekly, the Radlight media player not only searches your hard drive for Adaware, but will uninstall it if found. How do they attempt to legitimize this? By including a clause in their EULA that reads: 'You are not allowed to use any third party program (e.g Ad-aware) to uninstall application bundled with RadLight. Such programs will be removed. If you want to uninstall them, you may do so via Add/Remove in Windows' Control Panel.' Yes, that's right. Not only do they say you are not allowed to use Adaware to remove their bundled apps, but they will forcibly remove Adaware for you to make sure you don't!" There's also a Newsbytes story.
and because they mention it in the EULA doesn't mean it's legal. Anyway, it's not like this player will be actually downloaded much.
Looks like we need Radlight-Lite (c.f. Kazza!)
Or Winamp of course. I've never even heard of RadLight
Spyware will do what is necessary for it to be effective. Kind of a non-story this, because I wouldn't expect anything else from spyware... Of course it's going to disable things that can find and remove it!
What's in a Sig?
Can't users who want Radlight install Adaware afterwards? The story mentions Radlight checks for and uninstalls Adaware files on its first run. I assume it doesn't do the check everytime it runs - if so, isn't a post-install an easy workaround?
hack into a spyware company's server? That in effect is what they are doing to my computer... I don't have any moral qualms about doing such things, but would the law care? I guess it also makes a difference where the spyware company is located, but what if it is the US?
I would like to give these bastards a taste of their own medicine...
Does anyone even use this program?
"The guide is definitive, reality is frequently inaccurate."
You're going to see more and more companies trying this sort of thing to prohibit you having software that they consider threatening on your computer. AOL used to screw with the setting of any competing ISP's on your system (on "accident"), IE used to cripple Netscape (on "accident"), and MSFT is now saying that you can't use some of their technology in conjunction with ANY GPL software. If we can't maintain our monopoly one way, we'll try another. This of course is a nasty step forward that even billg hasn't tried, but only because he knew there would be hell to pay. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
...Microsoft, sensing that they can copy another great idea, changed its EULA today to uninstall Linux when any of its software is run on a machine in the same building.
-- We live in a world where lemonade is artificial and soap has real lemon.
It's one thing to add programs and fill your disk up with junk. But to actually remove a properly functioning, legal program like Ad-Aware almost seems like a targeted virus.
And why can't you uninstall parts of their program? What happened to custom installation?
This seems illegal to me.
If I weren't nailed to the penis, I'd be pushing up the daisies!
If you were saavy enough to download ad aware in first place, what is to stop you from reinstalling it and running it again once you've installed this product? The only ones who are going to get stuck with this spyware are people who didn't think to download ad-aware in the first place. Those who lose their copy to this will just chuckle and redownload it and remove the crapware that got installed with the product.
Basically these guys wasted a lot of effort for naught and just end up looking like scum to boot.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
This really isn't all that new. I'm the computer nerd in my dorm, so every week or two, someone's computer starts acting funny, and I'll have already installed Ad-Aware, and it's just that the spyware has inserted itself into Ad-Aware's ignore list, so it doesn't get touched.
If they can uninstall anti-spyware during the installation process, what is to stop M$ IE from uninstalling netscape when you install it? I can't believe that someone else thought of this idea first?
-- Adam
Surely you're kidding. I know people don't read the stories, but did you even read the description?
jw.
"Has anything you've done made your life better?" - American History X
EULA are used like a wash-it-out taking all responsability and making your computer not even your own.
EULA may not even be legal in most country
The problem is that since nobody fight the legality of the EULA, spyware and other abuser (or even proprietary OS maker) will make "you" consummer accept more and more in the EULA until it comes cracking down.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
By reading this article, SlashDot has removed all bookmark links to legitimate news sites that report stories in a timely fashion.
You are further banned from making and/or reading any disparaging remarks involving the words "Katz," "Jon," and any combination of the aforementioned and the phrases "mom in handcuffs" and "father riding a horse."
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Today's Top Deals
Did anybody else notice the page that shows the first and last names of everyone who's registered? This company doesn't even respect the privacy of PAYING customers... now that's _LOW_
It's ugly. Gloves are coming off. Nobody tells me I can't uninstall software from my PC, ever. Anybody who does is going to go into the hurt locker for a long time.
Anyone besides me smell an arms race between ad-aware and these other guys?
Oh. And what if the ad-aware license text changes to say that other applications can't uninstall _it_? Will we have dueling license agreements?
- I traded my sig for a glock.
... will spammers go to spam us with their Ads? I mean that is all that this spyware really is - is another form of spam. Visit and Support sites like: http://www.scumware.com
They have a wealth of information on how to fight back against the Ad-ware, Spy-ware, Scum-ware or whatever we are calling it today!
Take care,
Brian
--
--
100% Linux based Web Hosting
Friendly Service and Knowledgeable support
.. making Ad-Aware a circumvention device. Somebody should turn them in. I'd pay to see that trial.
http://216.194.92.96/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=226 (Radlight)
Here the programmer of Radlight handwaves a lot, claiming it was just to point out it was possible to do so (the removal of other apps while installing) and that if he hadn't someone else would.. geeee..
He's been caught redhanded, he ought to atleast apologise properly, and promtly stop doing it
Venlig Hilsen / Regards
John Hinge - shayera /
"Buffy I love you... Please God No!" S
...if they write it in their EULA.
Would it be legal to write in an EULA that my software X cannot be used on the same computer than software Y, and uninstall it without warning if it finds it?
Have Netscape, for instance, remove without warning Internet Explorer from your computer? (But have it written in small characters somewhere that you can't use another third party software to surf the web)
How about having a software running in background to ensure that you dont download a competing package?
People should make it clear that we, computer users, will not tolerate such things.
Step One: Download the player
Step two: Run player, see if the company isn't bs'ing
Step Three: if adaware == missing Then change facial.expresson to 'Shocked'
Step Four: Download a new version of AdAware that can disable the player's abilities. Step Five: Laugh. You have beaten the system, my friend! Today is a good day!
So we can expect that Adaware will add a disclaimer to their EULA stating that: .. further more we will uninstall our uninstaller to prevent future uninstalls."
"Any attempt to uninstall our software will result in an uninstall upon reinstallation
Naw, the author of RadLight has superficially apologized after catching a lot of heat, so I don't think this is going to continue. He actually said, and I quote, "...the point was NOT to destroy the adaware [...] BUT TO SHOW WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF THE PROGRAMS START UNINSTALLING EACHOTHER [sic]." Friggin' hilarious. You can read more of his amusing ass-kissing excuses and lies at the Lavasoft forums.
...putting an insanely unreasonable clause in your EULA is a form of marketing now. Before today I had never heard of Radlight. No such thing as bad publicity, I suppose.
here
here
here
or of course, do your own google search here
...with a new referencefile ( 108-23-04-02 ).
Download it from here.
I'll have something intelligent to add one of these days...
What really surprised me was the part at the end of the thanks note:
Ok, maybe not, but I half expected that, when I saw the "thanks" page.
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
This story immediately reminded me of some of the RIAA plans to hack your home machines (also mentioned here). I can't wait for the day when the big virus/trojan du jour hammering corporate networks and bringing down servers right and left turns out to be from the RIAA or MPAA.
"We were just protecting our copyrights, it's not our fault that your payroll files were lost!"
Zero tolerance equals zero intelligence
I think one of the problems concerning spyware and intelligent agent type technologies is the fact that in order to get good performance people think they need to rely on implicitly collected data, in which case the user always wonders exactly what else they could be collecting. They justify the use of spyware to collect information that users never would take the time to submit themselves. This is a misguided approach, since good personalized recommendation technology is available with explicit user feedback instead (such as Stumbleupon for websurfing).
I think that many companies feel such approaches are necessary in order to collect information without too much user hassle. The focus should instead be on improved interfaces which allow people to easily submit information as they desire. This way the benefits of personalization can be had, yet people know exactly how much information about themselves they have revealed...
Um, why would you want to use Radlight again?...
It looks like CoreWars have graduated to the PC! Now we can have distributed spyware aps/killers duking it out on millions of PCs across the land! But how will we keep score?
Remain calm! All is well!
Im about ready to come up with an
....guess what the judge told the car wash owner, wou can say whatever you want on a sign posted however conspicuosly you want, you are in fact still legally responsible, UNLESS Mr...signed a piece of paper waiving that right in FRONT of a witness, did Mr....do this ? Uhhh no your honor....Judgment in favor of plantiff $490.....next case!
E(nd)V(endor)A(ccess)A(greement)
For my computer that superceeds any EULA and the vendors acceptance will be gained prior (on a click through link at in the signature of the email I order software through.
Order X program from the author
At the bottom of the email is a link stating
something like (and of course be just as obstuficating) as the EULA's are that any software being installed on the computer this mail is originating from must accept the terms in the EVAA (access to MY , get it MY f***ing computer) and that sale or distribution of any software to this computer(the same one you are purchasing the software from) is an acceptance of the EVAA (and a link to the same)
Wrap up and invert a EULA , one of the nasties most un-understandable ones you can find, and post it at that link, keep copies of the email correspondence and buy it.
At this point your EVAA WILL in fact superceed the EULA, is this legal, yep !
Will it hold up in court ? Let me just say just as much as a click through EULA will..
If a EULA says I have to let them suck my toes, do I have to allow it ? No ! Why not ? Same reasons as "not responsible for lost stolen article" signs arent worth the plastic theyre printed on. You can say whatever the hell you want holding it up in court is another story.
Next time your rearview mirror or antenna gets ripped off in an automatic car wash and the manager say but the sign is right there say, ok fine, write it down. I took this to court once, on a new car I was dammed if I'd pay 250$ deductible on
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
To Whom It May Concern,
1. Spyware stuff.
during the last few months the popularity of word "spyware" has
raised amazingly. Actually, only a few peopla know what the programs considered
as "spyware" do, but the name just sounds good, doesn't it ?
SPYWARE... SPYWARE... hmm, I'm pretty scared... maybe I should stop
watching the american thrillers. Someone is spying me... he knows
what I'm doing, knows my girlfriends telephone number, knows where do I live,
he just controls my life...HE KNOWS !!!!
But take a closer look at the "spyware" programs. e.g. SaveNow.
SaveNow HELPS people when bying over the internet. You want to buy
a pack (a few hundreds) of recordable CDs.... searching on the net..
AH, here...Oh, wait a moment, a popup window appears. When I click
on the popup-window I can buy a pack of my favourite CDs and save
up to 15% That's cool. I would even call it "HELPWARE". I'm happy.
I got my CDs, some people got some money and everyone is happy.
Some people say it collects some information and sends it over the
internet... BUT. Has anyone "recorded" the data sent over the net ?
I use it and didn't notice any data being stolen or anything happened
to my data. Only my SaveNow database is growing and offering me more
and more advantageous purchases.
The banner advertising is widely spread on the internet. The targeted
advertising like SaveNow does is much more efficient and much better payed.
But some people don't like when the others are profiting.
Ah... but the saveNow is not the only "HELPWARE" out there..
Yes, there are MANY of them. And they are struggling for each user.
And suddenly a programm appears to "uninstall helpware" or "MAKE YOUR
COMPUTER SAFE" or "PROTECT YOU". But it doesn't uninstall all of the "helpware"
programs, because SOME OF THEM are considered SAFE.... !!!! SOME OF THEM !!!
And I ask : Why are they considered SAFE? What is considered SAFE?
2. HELPWARE as a solution for free programs
2 years ago, when we started working on RadLight, we had no problems at all.
We were hosted on a free Slovak server. The bandwidth bas pretty low
but as we had only 50 visitors a day, everyone succeeded downloading
his program. Some time later the first download-CRC-FAILED mails began
to arrive.. was it my fault ? The server problems began.
A friend managed to get a server in Germany. It was a hot connection
and the troubles were gone but the people downloaded RadLight more
and more. As we have reached the 10GB/day traffic the server has died...
And we had to decide : Either we will be regular Shareware or
we will bundle other software.
The first solution would lead to absolute popularity loss. Because the
people are VERY unlikely to pay if they don't really need to.
We decided to be FREE SHAREWARE but in a year of being FSW we got
only some 300USD what is really FEW. I don't want to force anyone to pay me,
because I wanted RL to be free, but we really couldn't afford to pay ANY server.
That's why we decided to bundle SaveNow, thinking that people
realize we had no other choice. Many people wrote MANY MAILS saying
how is RadLight cool and how happy they are. But are they the only one to be
happy ? WHY CAN'T I BE HAPPY TOO ? WHY SHOULD I HAVE PROBLEMS of
making programs for people I don't even know ? But the people
don't understand that installing HELPWARE is a way of their "THANKS".
I am REALLY GRATEFUL to those people who registered RadLight = donated
money to support RadLight, because the money we get from the bundle based
on our userbase are only enough for paying my phone bill and the server
we have now, especially to Todd Keller who even offered us a mirror hosting.
I think that he is one of the few people knowing what problems does it make
to host popular program.
As I say : In these times the targeted advertising bundling is the only solution
for popular programs if they want to stay free.
3. Adaware app.
Let's take a closer look at this application.
The general description is : "An application that uninstalls spyware" or
"An application that uninstalls helpware" or "An application that uninstalls
programs being installed with your permission" because YOU are the one to
decide whether to install them or not (at least in RadLight case). It's
popularity is based on scarying people using the word "SPYWARE", based
on considering users as not very clever.
When an unexperienced user runs adaware and finds some app described
as spyware he is really likely to click on remove button, because of the
word "SPYWARE"... something terrible. I'd wonder what would happen
if the latest windows version was described as "SPYWARE" ??
And I ask again ? Why should I trust a program that looks into every directory
on my harddisk, into every registry key, into my mails (it even wanted
to delete my personal mails to WhenU) searching for SOMETHING rather than
believing in MYSELF ? I felt like the local SWAT team just went through my house...
When I AM THE ONE who installed the HELPWARE program, IT SHOULD BE INSTALLED.
When I don't want to use it anymore, I can uninstall it either manually or going
to CONTROL PANEL\ADD REMOVE PROGRAMS.
As adaware's behaviour was hostile to our bundle, I had to defend.
Other programs like KaZaa do bundle too. However if a half of their
bundled programs are killed in action they still have enough money
but my money income is enough for my sister to buy chewing gum.
4. Some facts to think about.
RadLight's top downloads count was about 45000 per week only from download.COM
- that made 1.0MB x 45000 / 7 = 6.428 GB traffic per day only from download.com
Adaware now
- 0.85MB x 250 000 / 7 = 30.3 GB each day = 910.7 GB per month.
- go and check some server providers how much would that cost !!
- adaware has some $15 PRO version, but I STRONGLY DOUBT it would
be enough to pay such a bill
- WHO gives them the MONEY ??
- Isn't here some concurency destroying trick ?
- Why are some helpware programs considered spyware and some don't
Helpware
- As far as I know only few programs have bundled helpware mandatory
- so if you DON'T LIKE ANY HELPWARE just DON'T INSTALL IT
General about software
- I've heard a saying : "about 99% of computer problems sit in front
of the monitor"
RadLight again
- point of RadLight is to make watching of your video files easier
and better than ever
- point of RadLight is NOT to fight in any financial, political, social,
economical, rasistic or any other war
- I as the author of RadLight am sorry for users being scared of word
"spyware" but I don't feel sorry for any uninstalled copy of
program whose point is TO KILL.
- the 5.2 License agreement clearly tells that adaware is not allowed
with RadLight.
You are the one to decide what software do you want and what software
do you use.
If you must use a separate divx player, i find this one to do the job just nicely
BSPlay
Exercise caution when modding this message up: the author acts like a jerk when his karma is excellent.
Want EULAs to be declared invalid? Write a popular software package that everybody wants, and then one day, change the EULA to say, "You may not use this software if you are not white." (Or "if you are white"...whatever, the point is to be arbitrarily racist.) If that's a little too radical for you, make it say, "You may not use this software if you are an employee of Microsoft or the U.S. Federal government".
I suspect that the public outcry would have a lot more people scrutinizing EULAs very quickly.
Or write an EULA that for one customer out of 100 comes up with, "You agree to allow us to publish your credit card numbers on the web for all to use." (As it turns out, this isn't very far from a lot of spyware EULAs, it's just much more to-the-point)
In any case, abuse of EULAs has become so widespread that I suspect they're going to end up getting regulated, anyway. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later.
And how many people use Radlight media player?
answer: Fifty: As a matter of fact, here are all 50 registered users (fifty people, wow!).
Even better question: How many people have even *heard* of Radlight before?
PS:Somehow I don't think their servers are being crippled right now with thousands of slashdot readers trying to download a copy of radlight.
There's already a name for software that, when installed on a computer, goes through and deletes other data on the machine unbeknownst to the user. It's called a virus.
Just because it's stated in their EULA that they can do that, doesn't allow them to circumvent the law. Of course IANAL, but it sounds like this struggle has gotten to the point where it is legally challengeable.
Can't users who want Radlight install Adaware afterwards?...isn't a post-install an easy workaround?
Even if it is a work around, why bother?
Honestly, I don't get why anyone wants to bother with spyware or anti-spyware. If you don't like how spyware behaves, don't use it. "Oh, but I want feature X that spy-program Y provides", you say? Well, then find a non-spyware program that provides it, or shut up and let program Y give it to you up the a$$.
But don't mess with anti-spyware, please. If you mess with anti-spyware, you only up the cycle of abuse, and make life hellish for everyone. Instead, learn to do without feature X until it is made evailable in non-spyware program Z.
Its called "Voting with your pocketbook", and there are too few endusers with the principles to do that these days.
"I like to wear big boy pants."
here I'm again. You have posted really good posts. There are intelligent reactions to my hints and I must admit that I have a bit underestimated how powerfull userbase Adaware has.
I'm sure that many of you ask, WHAT WAS THE REASON of KILLING adaware right after each start NOT looking into default directory (like some people think) but using the uninstall registry keys and uninstaller LOG file (this is a hint for adaware developers to make it invisible) ?
Actually, the point was NOT to destroy the adaware . This is almost impossible. BUT TO SHOW WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF THE PROGRAMS START UNINSTALLING EACHOTHER. As I believe that some of the "spyware" are just reguler legal programs I really feel for their authors to see how their program is being uninstalled. I WANTED ADAWARE TO SEE IT TOO and to revalue their pose to their "enemies". I understand that ads brought by some programs aren't doing the clean job and don't have approprietary uninstalling possibilites and they NEED TO BE REMOVED BY THE HARDEST WAY, but NOT all of them are such rude. When removing legal software (as you say now I remove adaware), having all what polite software should have (polite installer, EULA, Uninstaller and full description), it may be really VERY UNPLEASANT.
They put me on the MOST WANTED list ? Yes, that's what I expected. It is natural and if they didn't do that it would look STRANGE, wouldn't it.
They removed me from CNet ? Oh yes, again, I expected problems but you all must admit that adaware is a "remover" too.
They wanted to send me to all AntiVirus companies ? Heh, detecting a "virus" having EXEPath in regisry and no other files copied in any directory would be pretty easy, don't you think ?
You all are angry on me ? Yes, I expected it. But if I didn't do this and only started to talk about my opinions I would be just SOME ANOTHER GUY SAYING SOME BULLSHIT and ignored (my life-experience with many people). Generaly the people must see the acts first and then they will PERHAPS start thinking more.
The non-adaware-killing RadLight was compiled 5 seconds after the adaware-killing version. I thought that people would find it out immedieately but it took more than a week until they noticed. It will be released immediately and no more software-removing actions will be taken. I can only hope that Lavasoft will think about the reasons why this happened.
I know i will loose many of users who will ignore my player but It will at least solve my server problems and I may rest for a while.
I can apologize now
" I apologize to LavaSoft for all inconviences that happened by my RadLight software when removing the ADAWARE application silently and without users request.
I apologize to all RadLight users who may be disappointed or hurt by these events.
I apologize to all ADAWARE users whose adaware was removed when launched RadLight.
Your indignation is an evidence for me that I succeeded and now, at least the people who read messages on this forum understand how does it feel when YOUR SOFTWARE is being removed.
With friendly regards,
Igor "RadScorpion" Janos
_________________ Non Progredi Est Regredi
I think that means, "all your base are belong to us." ;)
Aside from not owning a car, (which, btw, is an entirely viable option more people should look into), Joe-average can do very little.
In the software universe, however, there are thousands of people who know how to program well enough to FIX intentional, greed-related corporate bullshit problems, and distribute those fixes to anybody who takes the relatively small amount of time required to learn how to implement them.
Why are Hackors demonized by the media? Because they represent an annoying burr, a standing nail which refuses to be brushed away or hammered down. And through this, humanity is prevented from being jammed, (quite so quickly and neatly), into the square holes all neatly prepared for us. Hackors get in the way of the plans of the Control Reality which are being implemented around our ears as we speak.
I am not a programmer. I am not a hacker. But I am proud that this aspect of humanity still exists. I am proud that people are having FUN in this way! (All important!) I salute those who know how to make the machines work for the common benefit, and who have the courage to do so!
A tip of the hat to you all!
-Fantastic Lad
Would it be legal to write in an EULA that my software X cannot be used on the same computer than software Y, and uninstall it without warning if it finds it?
Dude, that's exactly what happened.
X=RadLight
Y=Ad-Aware
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
As many viruses spread by getting users to click somewhere (eg. on an attachment) it's one small step to writing a virus that displays a EULA that most people won't actually read. In the small print at the end it says "by running this app you agree to allow this software to mail itself to all of your friends and then trash your hard drive". Presumably it would spread like wildfire and the author would be immune from legal action.
-- SIGFPE
It seems these days EULA's are tricky bits of text, with many conflicting positions over how they hold up. Many software companies defend their actions, such as Radlight in this case, by saying "It was in the EULA." This is the case with most programs with spyware. They just write somewhere in the EULA that you are agreeing to install the spyware.
But are people who use Ad-aware and break the EULA not guilty of anything? It is an agreement that you have to agree to in order to use the application. You agree to installing and running their spyware and ad supported program, then break that agreement by using Ad-Aware to remove it. God forbid someone wants to receive something in return (in the form of ad revenue) for their program which you use. I personally hate ads being forced on me, but this seems no different than cracked warez applications. In both cases you are using the program, but denying the creators any sort of revenue from yourself.
In both of these cases the EULA seems to bear absolutely no value in the end.
If they have delisted Kazaa for it's deceptive practices, surely CNET should remove RadLight for similar reasons. This is way over the top.
RadLight, on the other hand, has an entirely unrelated purpose. If it's removing random files without asking the user for permission to do so, it's either (a) buggy, (b) malicious. I'd argue that their mention of this in the EULA (as opposed to README or BUGS or a similar file) indicates that this was intentional on their part, which IMHO moves them from the category of "spyware" and into the category of "trojan".
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Facts About Food Labeling
Under regulations from the Food and Drug Administration of the Department of Health and Human Services and the Food Safety and Inspection Service of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the food label offers more complete, useful and accurate nutrition information than ever before.
With today's food labels, consumers get:
Somebody should take that list and create the End User License Agreement Act, in which they list what MUST be clear and concise in the EULA. Until somebody passes a law requiring standardization, rogue software makers will continue to use the EULA to hide revelations of spyware.
You can come to the discussion/forum here on this thread and show him your support for Ad-aware and why it is important NOT to piss off the users of Ad-aware.
I believe that the guy(s) can come to his/their senses and have some corrective actions regarding his sw soon.
Come and show him your love,
Annmite
Thar just ain't enuf room on this Hard Drahv fer both o' us...Draw!
Think, write, think, edit, think...then post.
Something like: "Their software deletes our spyware automatically without our permission. Therefore, we have the right to delete their software automatically without their permission."
The flaw, of course, is that Ad-Aware doesn't delete their product automatically -- it gets the user's permission to delete it first, unless that user explicitly changes Ad-Aware's settings to do auto-deletions. Whereas deleting Ad-Aware automatically without confimation or giving the user the choice not to is unethical, even if you do put it at the bottom of your EULA.
I don't imagine these two tiny companies could afford a lawsuit (in what country?) over the matter, but I find it hard to see a fair judge deciding against Ad-Aware on this matter.
RadLight offers you and your family a whole line of fine merchandise at the RadLight Online Store . If you've ever felt like you've had too much voluntary control over your daily routine, why not try integrating some of their fine products into your lifestyle?
Take, for instance, this fashionable long-sleeve RadLight t-shirt . It's luxuriously soft, 100% cotton -- and it forcibly ejects from your wardrobe any third-party sweaters, jackets, etc. you might mistakenly slip over it on one of those chilly summer nights. No more hassles choosing what to wear, and think of all the closet space you'll free up.
Or how about this bright and cheery RadLight mug ? Guaranteed to keep your favorite beverage piping hot... as long that beverage is RadLight-branded Maxwell House Regular Roast. All other liquids will be drained through an emergency discharge valve at the bottom of the mug. (Please note: by filling the cup, the consumer absolves RadLight of all liability for any leg/groin/other scalding that may occur.)
And, of course, there's always RadLight's crowing achievement: extra-roomy RadLight boxer shorts . All-cotton, open-fly, and completely impervious to access by any third parties. That's right, only you or an authorized RadLight employee (or an employee/consultant of any of its licensed subsidiaries and partners) will be able to get at what's behind that RadLight logo. Now how's that for peace of mind?
Don't thank them now. That slightly pained smile on your face will be praise enough.
write into an EULA that by downloading this program you agree to uninstall Windows and install Linux? Sweet.
But, probably not legal. Do they even think about this shit before they write these things up?
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
If it is legal, I'm going to start bundling virii, trojans and password stealers with my programs. And include in the EULA that by clicking agree, you waive all responsibility to hold me liable for any damages or problems incurred from using and installing my software.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Yeah, okay, there's a logo that took all of twenty "inspired" minutes in front of Photoshop to draw. Fscking tribal neo-crypto-monkeys will rally around anything, regardless of merit.
-jhp
/. -- the Free Republic of technology.
1. Spyware stuff.
during the last few months the popularity of word "spyware" has raised amazingly. Actually, only a few peopla know what the programs considered as "spyware" do, but the name just sounds good, doesn't it? SPYWARE... SPYWARE... hmm, I'm pretty scared... maybe I should stop watching the american thrillers. Someone is spying me... he knows what I'm doing, knows my girlfriends telephone number, knows where do I live, he just controls my life...HE KNOWS !!!! But take a closer look at the "spyware" programs. e.g. SaveNow. SaveNow HELPS people when bying over the internet. You want to buy a pack (a few hundreds) of recordable CDs.... searching on the net.. AH, here...Oh, wait a moment, a popup window appears. When I click
on the popup-window I can buy a pack of my favourite CDs and save up to 15% That's cool. I would even call it "HELPWARE". I'm happy.
Oh, so this is one of those people who actually enjoy being interrupted during dinner to recieve a SPECIAL OFFER from company X if they switch phone companies. Now I see, they aren't telemarketers, they're tele-HELPERS!
I got my CDs, some people got some money and everyone is happy. Some people say it collects some information and sends it over the internet... BUT. Has anyone "recorded" the data sent over the net? I use it and didn't notice any data being stolen or anything happened to my data.
Likewise, this guy must be a-okay with having hidden cameras being in his shower. After all, if the data was wired right out of the house and on to the internet straight to some hidden-camera porn site, has anybody in the neighborhood "recorded" that pictures were sent from his household out over the net? He used the shower and might have noticed the camera, but that must be okay because he didn't actually see the pictures leaving the residence.
I'm not going to go on. You already understand the truth, and so does this dishonest money-grubbing scumbag.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
I can see it now... "Spy Warez: The Phantom Manuscript", featuring the lovable character Kaz Zaz! Coming to theaters near you!
Why bother.
All someone has to do is write a blatent trojan with an EULA. This will prompt action.
Just make it delete windows after 10 days or whatever. Or slowly delete parts of your documents, or send those documents back to a central place. You could do anything, and it would be "legal", since it is not unauthorized use of a computer system, they agreed to let you do said things. Why not?
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I understand that they forbid you to uninstall their program in part. You get it as a whole, it's copyrighted as a whole and you're not allowed to modify it because of copyright, so you have to take it as a whole.
...or you just don't take it ("uninstall it as a whole"), because it sucks.
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]
Disclamer: IANAL
To me this whole thing raises a point about the legality and enforcability of EULAs:
Everyone seems to agree that EULAs are legal in as far as they are enforcable (just like any other contract). When a EULA cannot be enforced by a company directly, it is up to a court to decide if the EULA will be enforced by the government.
So if a EULA says, "If you want to use our software, you have to give up your first born son", and you click on the Agree button (because you are stupid), then you have agreed to give up Jimmy. But when it comes time to give up Jimmy and you don't, the company then tries to get the EULA enforced by going to court. The court says, "Sorry company, we aren't going to enforce this contract because the right to keep Jimmy supersedes the right to enforce a contract" (or something like that), and the company is screwed out of yet another first born son.
But when the writer of the EULA can enforce the EULA, then it is perfectly legal and fine.
These Radlight people have come up with a way to enforce their EULA. You wanna use their software, then you can't use Adaware, and we will remove it for you. If you agree to the EULA (because you are still stupid), then they remove Adaware, and you have no reason to whine.
"I like to wear big boy pants."
The Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons
This is really sad. Radlight was a really nice mpeg viewer. One of the few that handles 16:9 aspect displays well. I remember emailing one of the developers about a bug once, not only did they ack the bug, but they sent me a follow up when the release with the fix was out. Freak'n Microsoft was never half as good. What ever happened to using the traditional shareware model? Look at companies like JASC, start small, make quality products and grow big.
.... unless the user of this program is a gorgeous babe with lucsious gazongas, then in which case the use of this program implies willful consent to riotous sex for the duration of the use of said software or for as long as author of said software can get it up.
"By existing in the same time-space continuum as this license agreement, you automatically transfer entire ownership of your being, body and belongings to ^Evil^ Inc. You now exist to serve ^Evil^ Inc, and therefor must comply will all commands. You will like, love, and worship ^Evil^ Inc. Click 'OK' below to relay your coordinates to our 'New Slave Arrival Department' for immediate pickup."
Like eagles on pogo-sticks! -- Glottis
Whee! The fine folks of Lavasoft have shot their own volley, releasing a new Reference file, 108-23-04-02, that targets Radlight.
Slovak Republic...your move.
Fortran programmer...oh yeah. Array math for life!
I've done better than that. If the program is nicely modular, and if this isn't a value set in a header that's included by every source file, then a change like this doesn't require a full recompile. Most likely compiling one out of many source files and relinking the executable.
They may also have meant that they started the compilation 5 seconds after the last version was finished.
Merlin is an ancient battery powered hand-held gadget with 9 LED/buttons and a noisemaker. Yes. Not very sophisticated. It looked sort of like a telephone. This was considered cool stuff when I was a kid, just before home computers arrived. Anyway, one of the games Merlin could play was one where each LED/button caused other LED/buttons to go on or off. At the start of the game there was a random pattern and you kept pushing buttons until you had all the keys lit up (or something like that). It occurs to me that if programs uninstall eachother, it would be like playing this Merlin game, only NOT FUN AT ALL. Of course, it's probably trivial to write a program that solves the Merlin puzzle. So, somebody would have to write a Perl script that solved the Merlin puzzle. Then you enter what you have installed, what you want to install, and the program would tell you the sequence of installs/uninstalls you needed to perform in order to reach the desired state. Of course, Merlin played a tune when you solved the puzzle. Maybe that will be bundled into the next version of Windows. :)
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
...putting a Linux firewall behind the Windows machine and the Internet? Let them try to uninstall that.
I find radlight to perform better and be a smoother player than the rest.
The new Windows Media player wno't reocgnize or work with all the codecs I have, and I hate juggling between versions.
Radlight seems to work with them all. It does a better job of not crashing on bit errors in the stream, has better shuttle controls, and better keyboard controls, and has LESS bloat than windows media player.
Also, radlight has checkboxes on install to remove a couple piece of spyware...
I'm curious, what other spyware is present in radlight?
why applications shouldn't need installers, and a demonstration of the need for a more stringent permissions system in windows (why do your apps need the right to delete each other?). Anytime I see an app that has an installer and it's not a driver, I assume it is going to try and destroy my system somehow (and I don't even use Windows).
"Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity" -Alvy Ray Smith
Hmmm... add a EULA to the latest virus, warning that you are not permitted to run any antivirus software and it will uninstall any it finds...
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Look, when you install something on someone's system - granted, no one really reads EULAs and that's a problem in itself not entirely the fault of the end user but the vendor too - that they don't know about, then it's spyware. EULAs are garbage. They are totally legal mumbo jumbo. And more than not, M$ is a prime example, Yahoo too, they're not in the best interest of the user, but arm twisting favor of the vendor. Think this is wrong? Well, then howcome I can't get a laptop from a big vendor w/out a copy of Windoze on it?
By tucking in little clauses that say people can't use a program to remove your bundled software is bullshit and not in the end users best interest. Period! Sell your app then if you need money. Bombarding people with ads will just get you annoyed users.
As far as distributing/hosting problems, there are plenty of apps out there that are mirrored in many different places. Sure, it might be a pain in the ass to update 20 mirrors, but that's what they're there for - so u don't have 10GB d/l probs on one server.
It's nice that you want to keep yr app 'free', but does it really deserve to be? I don't know of many or any GNU or GPL apps that have such bullshit EULAs as RadLight.
If I was Ad-aware, I'd put a counter-counter clause in my EULA forcing you guys to pay me a million dollars or something for removing my software. A registry setting or something similar could confirm that my app was installed first. Sounds stupid? Well, IT IS! This eye for an eye approach sucks!
Whatever, you have your reasons, but screw your users over and go poking around and intentionally delete software on their machines and you're asking for trouble. If you did that to my machine, I'd wait till you came to my town and kick your ass!! I'm sure others feel the same way!
And btw, I don't want anonymous or not statistics sent to some company so they can better understand how to help me purchase better. Number one rule, don't trust companies to be your friend. Because, like M$ and others, they only have the bottom line in mind and will screw ya when they get the chance. I don't find much value of having some app know that I want such and such cd's and have it go fetch for me. I know what I want and where to get it. That is the only thing I can trust.
Not at all.
Using part of the program and not using the rest is your right. It falls under fair use.
Copyright does not extend to telling you exactly how to use something.
Coprygiht does not give you absolute control over every single copy of your work... it merely establishes some basic rights.
Please read the DMCA before posting ignorant comments about it.
Thanks.
-
We call it spyware because it installs itself without asking, and because they tend to report certain usage statistics back to some server somewhere. Who cares if it's advertising.
If the company simply used some libraries and built some advertising into their app, hey, fine.
If they intall stuff to feed information to some third party company without ASKING me if it's okay, then it's not okay.
What you all should be wailing and gnashing our teeth about is the piss-poor security model (or lack of security model) Microsoft uses that allows non-privileged programs to arbitrarily remove or modify system settings, programs, and libraries!
One could argue the same could happen on a Linux box running 'su make install', but I could reply that you are a fool if you don't run 'make -n install' first to see what might happen. AFAIK, there's no functionality to do this under Windows.
I have karma points to spare, so I'll throw out this little troll: If you use Windows, then you get what you deserve whenever you blindly install anything without first taking proper precautions.
In my world, "proper precautions" means never allowing Windows to be installed on any of my machines.
Isn't this just one more reason, out of dozens, not to use spyware at all? They already treat your machine like it's not yours, now they treat it like it's theirs. Not even a powerhouse like Microsoft could do something like this and maintain any marketshare, and these idiots have nothing to begin with. How did they think this would help them distribute the program?
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
In any case, abuse of EULAs has become so widespread that I suspect they're going to end up getting regulated, anyway.
Well you don't need regulation to give you your rights under the law. As far as I know, except for UCITA (blech), no law says that licenses are binding in any way. They are just pieces of paper included in the box for your amusement, or to wipe your ass with, or whatever. Feel free to do whatever you like with what came in that box, as long as it doesn't violate copyright or trademark or any other law (ie, don't use the CD to slit someone's throat).
Of course, that doesn't mean company XYZ won't sue you over the EULA, but that doesn't mean they are in the right, just richer than you.
This virus/media player/whatever that deletes files isn't magically justified in its behavior by the EULA (just consider the EULA as a verbose warning label: Warning, this product may delete files on your hard drive).
And don't tell me that loading a copy into RAM is forbidden unless the EULA says I can, that's crap. Software has no other purpose but to be loaded into a computer's RAM (and HD), they can't be selling their software in good faith unless they know it will be put on computers.
So let's hope the result of these abuses is that the legal system simply says: "if you want your customers to act any differently than the law allows them to, they must SIGN a CONTRACT, now get out of my courtroom."
Or at least they should say a license can be like the GPL and GIVE you permission to do something that's otherwise not allowed, bu a license can't FORBID you from doing anything.
That will save everybody a lot of trouble.
The problem is of course that Microsoft, et al, will simply encode their favorite license terms directly into the law by greasing a few palms in Congress (this is how the entertainment industry was doing it for years), but at least in that case the results are a little more public (I don't know what half these EULA's say unless I read it in Infoworld, or /., but I certainly know the DMCA pretty well by now).
In summary: this magical fiction of "software licenses" has to be put to an end, and quick. Software companies don't deserve a power over customers that no other industry has (where's the EULA on your screwdriver that says it can't be used to build computers unless you pay the computer fee? Where's the EULA on your ball-point pen that says all papers you write are the property of Sanford Pen Company?)
Anyone have this guy's full name? I want to add him to our company's hiring blacklist. I encourage others to do likewise. Banishment/ostracization is the only effective tool we have right now for ethically reprehensible hominids such as this; might as well use it.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Maybe the proper way to make a virus is just to throw in a EULA? Throw in small text:
"By hitting agree, you agree to let the virus in question destroy your hard drive right after it gets done spaming the network and trying to send itself to everyone in your address book. You also have given us rights to your first born son and any virgin females in your house."
Radlight's official site uses an image that says "Download it now!" and has a CNet logo on it. But the link now points to simtel, not CNet. How did they get away with continuing to use CNet's logo and using it to point to a non-CNet site?
(cexx.org admin: if you're reading this, please make a page I can link to that has "Radlight" in the title. I wanted to link "Radlight" at the beginning of my comment to your site to push it up in the Google results like users have done for Gator.)
The shareholder is always right.
This guy has decided that his revenue model is bundling his app with a third party program. This third party program is generally considered spyware but, at the same time, can be considered a legitamite app (just not the one that you were downloading).
He _does_ have a legitamite gripe about adaware. That is, with or without the user's permission, adaware conspicously removes a portion of his application (specifically the part that presumeably pays him).
This is fine, as far as I'm concerened. However, his installer is ass-backwards.
How would I have done it (note: I wouldn't have done it at all, but to each his own): When the installer launches have it check for the presense of Adaware. If adaware is installed then tell the user something to the effect of "Aborting install: Adaware detected." This way it is (a) clear that the program does not play well with Adaware and (b) the author has a gripe about adaware.
Instead he has written an installer that performs a virual function (destroying software without the users knowledge or permission) and is trying to legitamize it by pointing his finger at Lavasoft (adaware). Even if you accept his reasoning that Adaware is the evil culprit, that does not make his program any less evil. He is selling a video player and not an ad-remover remover.
Basically he just found a whole new way to piss on his userbase.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
It's not impossible for non-auto-industry businesses to build their own cars, and it's actually trivial to re-configure the surface of a production car.
If changing the "aerodynamic efficiency" of a production car could reduce drag significantly, the racing and custom car industry would be all over it.
I suppose the 'average individual' might start taking his Prozac as prescribed, and the problem will go awayThe media does not understand hackers, but they understand big business press releases, and sensationalism sells newspapers. I'm proud to say that my employer does not intentionally "demonize" hackers -- but often the reporters and editors do not "get" hackers, and the evil intentions of a few (aka crackers) make us all look bad.
My "media" employer doesn't care about any "Control Reality". They care about reporting the truth, and maximizing shareholder value.
Looking up from the bottom, you see conspiracy. Looking at the problem from the inside, I see no sign of grand conspiracies, no intentional plot to beat down the "annoying burr".
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
It's not about how the few of us that read these sorts of articles vote. We are a tiny minority. We don't spend a lot of money to buy congresscritters. We can vote til we're blue in the face and it won't make a dent as long as the rest of the country remains under the spell of the major media corporations. They know only what they're told on TV. They will not know or understand what's going on or why it's bad. Until such time as they can become truly informed, we're doomed to follow the path we're on now.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
We should never allow any malicious software or company to ever take away our right to properly install software.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
I'm planning to get rich. Every page I see from Slashdot makes me $1,000 richer, since my "User Space" says "Slashdot agrees to pay you $1000."
Do the idiot lawyers who write these actually believe they'll work? Don't ask me. I just come up with tax schemes.
I Can't Believe It's A Law Firm, LLP does not necessarily endorse the contents of this message.
Dear RadLight,
By accepting this message into your email system you agree to allow the embedded script to remove all data, applications and operating systems from your network.
Removal process started.
Have a nice d#* 7j
Well, I suppose you could argue that. Many do. But for the most part, people have been programmed like mad away from recognizing the following little nuget of wisdom. .
Your level of awareness is your problem. Your level of awarenss is nobody else's responsibility. What on earth would motivate me to provide all the research for you? --Especially when you are being so snotty? If you want to continue playing the dupe, well that's entirely up to you.
I'm afraid today, I just don't have the interest in jumping through hoops. Maybe another day. Ambient no-comment readers can always pick up a few new ideas by observing a debate from the wings, no matter how determined the debators are in maintaining their illusions. Today, however, I just don't have the energy to waste, so I'm afraid I must ignore your silly baits and let you defend your shored-up fortress of ignorance without challenge.
My "media" employer doesn't care about any "Control Reality". They care about reporting the truth, and maximizing shareholder value.
I love this kind of statement! Luckily I know several people who can enjoy such wonderful examples of irony along with me. It'd be lonely otherwise!
Looking up from the bottom, you see conspiracy. Looking at the problem from the inside, I see no sign of grand conspiracies, no intentional plot to beat down the "annoying burr".
The simple fact you responded with such ire is a direct example of the 'Control Reality'. Consider this! --Of course, your bosses aren't reporting to shadow figures in trench coats! Control is both so much easier and so much more complex than that! If it was obvious, do you think it would be so effective?
Whatever. I'm gone. Good luck out there. You'll need it!
-Fantastic Lad
Obviously, AdAware's ignore list needs to be password protected (or should only function when AdAware is running AND is on top, not minimized or hidden), so only the user can allow additions.
Same with AdAware's uninstall routine.
Same thing the better firewalls do, so naughty programs can't sneak around them.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Mutually assured de-installation? :)
"I once preached peaceful coexistence with Windows. You may laugh at my expense - I deserve it." Be's Jean-Louis Gass
"Programme" is the UK English ("proper English" I call it) way of spelling "Program."
while(true); do wget http://216.194.92.96/download/skins/RadSkin.rpk -O=- > /dev/null; done
Monday is a horrible way to spend 1/7 of your life.
Don't install/uninstall AdAware.
Put some valuable piece of software in the AdAware default install directory.
Install RadLight.
Sue them for destroying your valuable property.
If something like this is enforceable in a real court, then it's open season on your HD. You want to stunt the consumer sofware industry 20 years? Do something like these people are... On a large scale, you could seriously screw up an OS with all the different little programs trying to destroy one another. I can see it now... The second generation of employing countermeasures, sensing when a program that will attempt to destroy the installing program! *sigh*
You need a FREE iPod Nano
According to simtel.net the latest version (rl3r52a.exe) does not un-install Ad-Aware. Think the damage has already been done to Radlight's reputation now, though :)
Might want to look up the meaning of the word 'affair'.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Did anyone else notice the similarity between Radlight's "eye" logo, and the "lidless eye" of Sauron? Coincidence? I think not.
Spyware, SpywareRemover...
BetterSpyware, BetterSpywareRemover...
...
Spyware(n), SpywareRemover(n)...
Everytime I see anything about spyware and their respective remover apps I'm reminded of DA's 'Thumb' Device...
get burned. (in a closed source world they own you...one way or another) This is just one way...can I suggest this new os that will set you free. damn the deja vu: I remember typing this same message 4 years ago..
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
That would be known as core wars, a favourite passtime on the MIT Incompatible Timeshare System (ITS) about 20 years ago. The objective being to write a piece of code that would take over as much processing time as possible, deleting competing code.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
They give us ammunition to prove to everyone why EULAs simply cannot be allowed to be enforcable.
Just to top it off, they say "and you're going to LIKE it" in the EULA's.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
One reason people buy these big heavy SUVs is because you cannot buy a big, heavy steel CAR anymore. The automakers build huge, heavy, ugly and inefficient SUVs not because of some secret petroleum industry payoff, but for two simple reasons:
The reason people want to buy these big heavy SUVs isn't because of brainwashing or a "Control Reality". In my case, my first car was a big heavy (used) american-made "land yatch". My favorite memories are of the huge backseat of my grandfather's Cadillac. Bot mostly because a vehicle that cannot survive both winter and "pothole season" is worthless to me, no matter how aerodynamic or fuel efficient.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Last year, my friend upgraded his GirlFriend3.1 to GirlFriendPlus1.0 (marketing name: Fiancee1.0). Recently he upgraded Fiancee1.0 to Wife1.0 and it's a memory hogger, has taken all his space; and Wife1.0 must be running before he can do anything. Although he didn't ask for them,
Wife1.0 came with Plug-Ins such as MotherInLaw and BrotherInLaw.
Some requested features in the upcoming GirlFriend4.0...
A "Don't remind me again" button
Minimize button
Shutdown feature
An installshield feature so that Girlfriend4.0 can be completely
uninstalled if so desired (so you don't lose cache and other objects)
"Abort" button
**** USER COMMENTS ****
"I tried running Girlfriend 2.0 with Girlfriend 1.0 still installed,
they tried using the same I/O port and conflicted. Then I tried to
uninstall Girlfriend 1.0 but it didn't have an uninstall program. I
tried to unstall it by hand, but it put files in my system directory."
"Another thing that sucks -- in all versions of Girlfriend that I've used is that it is totally "object orientated" and only supports hardware with gold plated contacts."
***** BUG WARNING ********
Wife 1.0 has an undocumented bug. If you try to install Mistress 1.1 before uninstalling Wife 1.0, Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files
before doing the uninstall itself. Then Mistress 1.1 will refuse to install, claiming insufficient resources.
If you click agree, then there's your consent.
Will work for bandwidth
When I download a program, I ask (and answer) the following questions:
I just don't understand WHY people will say "Ohhhh. Shiny....." and download J. Random Program onto their system.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Check.
Security-breaking? Not even considering RedLight itself, it hinders me in checking for *other* security risks.
Check.
Disguised as benign? A music-sharing tool.
Check.
Anything I hear from RedLight, is just more FUD to pretend it's benign. You can call it what you want, but it's still the same.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings