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Your Fingerprint Buys Groceries in Seattle
lildogie writes: "The Seattle Post-Intelligencer reports that a Thriftway grocery store is installing fingerprint scanners that they will use to identify customers." Each customer's payment method (credit, debit) is then automatically applied at checkout. Haven't they seen Charlie's Angels?
but if you thought those MVP/VIC/etc... cards were bad about providing tacking info, this is a nightmare
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Interesting concept. Since it's difficult to forge fingerprints, it may be a viable idea. Still, someone other than you could use their fingerprint tied to your money, which isn't a good idea. Whatever works, though...
Live or die trying.
This will only encourage the act of chopping off fingers. Victims will be out a finger and a few thousand dollars in condoms and baby oil.
If this is to make a significant impact in the area, more businesses need to follow suit.
:)
Unless you're a West Seattle resident, chances are you never shop at this Thriftway. People I know in Belltown, Capitol Hill, Fremont, and near UW all either go for the small co-op grocery stores, Whole Foods, or the commercial Safeways and QFCs.
I think the technology is a great convenience for the consumer, but why should it be limited to one store in a not-so-often-visited part of town? I've lived in Seattle for nearly a year now and I didn't even know about this Thriftway.
If this becomes widespread, then fingerprint laundering would become widespread. Don't hold that drinking glass at the restaurant too tightly - the waiter may decide to lift the prints and sell it to the Mafia for money. So people will start wearing gloves. Buy stock in glove copmanies!
"If we can come up with a payment method where there's no opportunity for fraud, then the fees come down," Kapioski said.
That's what they said about ATM's.
That's what they said about Net banking.
Its all cheap and rosy until its mainstream and then BANG up jump the fees.
The technology might be cool, it may be convienient, but dont be fooled into thinking that it will be cheaper.
I'll think of a funny sig later on
Robber: This is a stick up! Give me all the cash NOW
Clerk: Ok sir.. But I'll need you to place your finger on the scanner so that the change drawer will open and i can get the money for you..
Robber: Err, umm.. nevermind
That is interesting once, for some time now, it's known that, contrary to popular belief, fingerprints are not unique. If I can use an analogy, the same applies for network card MAC addresses. Btw, the chances of finding similar fingerprints are greater then MAC addresses.
Now, I wonder why people continue to use non unique data as identification methods. It really scaries me, then I think about the kind of trouble one get get into on these issues.
morcego
No, the main advantage is easier tracking of the customer.
Verifying the identity of the customer would be absolutly key here.
(from the article)
"It takes about one minute to enroll," Kapioski said.
I somehow doubt that these people are carefuly examining multiple forms of identification in less than a minute. Also:
"Employees underwent 15 or 20 minutes of training in the system this week."
The system itself might be secure, but identity theft the issue that it seems to be today, I would be most worried about these "18 year old clerks" that can't be trusted with cash taking a 15 minute training course and being put in charge of registration.
heh, or how about walking out of the store? Man, I'd be a LOT more worried about having my index finger stolen than my CC.
It's beyond me how anyone would trust their biometrics to random companies (or other entities). Hell, I wouldn't trust the government with mine (they can take prints from my dead cold hands).
The problem is, that they are not just creating a "hash" from your prints - they need to store the exact print in order for the recognition to work. This means, any script kiddie lucky enough to get into their database, will have the prints.
The next logical step is, to hook this system up to the feds and interpol (post sept-11 this is not fiction!)
The real problem will be, that people trust technology blindly. When I "check out" of the store, putting my thumb on the reader, and the alarm bells sound (and the big "armed and dangerous, shoot on sight" sign starts flashing), guards, police, whatever, will trust the damn machine.
Now if one could trust that the responsible parties would (and could) ensure "absolute security" around their biometrics systems, there really wouldn't be that much of a problem. But believing that IT departments in regular companies (or even government agencies) who all live with finite budgets will ensure that their back-end systems are un-crackable is naiive.
Luckily, the iris scanning in the airports is still optional (and actually sold at an extra charge, as some sophisticated "luxury" - hah!).
...I'm sure the checkout lady won't mind you holding up a drinking glass to the Thriftway fingerprint reader.
...on how many naoseconds will pass between this and the time when law enforcement agencies decide to link this checkout system with thier fingerprint databases.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
Ok.. seriously.. i've seen a few postings on identity thefts, the inherent fallacies of fingerprinting technology, the lack of three dimensional recognition... but what really scares me is...
THESE BASTARDS ARE GONNA AD-TARGET ME!
On a serious note though, I'd be more concerned about targetted marketing and advertising from the supermarket itself than identity theft and mistaken fingerprints.
Think about it.. they'll have your name, your address, and your shopping habits. my gramma asks me to nip down to the grocery store for her.. next thing you know, i'm getting samples of preperation H and Depends shipped right to my door.
That time of the month? Don't worry, we've been tracking that too! This handy dandy sample of Playtex tampons will show up JUST IN TIME! (oh wait.. that one could actually be useful).
Gah. No thanks.. think i'll skip the fingerprinting and keep paying with cash. At least til they come out with a wrist chip implant...
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
I design software for biometric systems and although I don't know where they are installed at, the US Gov. is our largest client. *NO* current systems verify a third dimensional component. The neural network that IDs the print is fed many parameters. Amongst them is color (as you stated), thumbprint temperature,ambient and outdoor temperature (because the human extremity body-temperature is so dependent upon the environment), plus many more features from the actual 2-Dimensional image. There is no 3-D component.
You might argue that the angling of the scanning lasers adds a third dimensional component (a shadow) to the 2D image, but this is still something that could be duplicated given an image.
A very basic components analysis of the Neural Network will show that the thumb temperature is an ineffective means of classifieing the print, yet where I work, marketing insists that we continue to use this. That is why we have tried to increase the temperature importance by also including ambient temperatures, but mostly, the temperature is useless as a classification feature.
As far as taping a photocopy of somebody's fingerprint to the scanner this won;t work. Our scanners are color images, and the light from the photocopier has to come in at the same angle as the lasers. Using a pane of glass, a red light angled in the right direction, and a camera, we have been able to create photos that pass for fingerprints ~97% of the time. The percentage would be slightly increased if you kept the image in your pocket (body-heat) until placing it on the thumbprint scanner. This number approaches the number of false-negatives that you get with any thumbscanner.
Using biometric information creates a *real* problem for identity theft. Bruce Schneier points this out in his second book. If the advanced criminals can't reproduce your thumbprint, then they might as well intercept your biometric going from the scanner to the computer and reproduce that on all subsequent machines.
This is something that I will definitely opt out of in the future. Using a pseudo-random key generator on a cel-phone and having it transmit the key would be more accurate than a biometric.
Bringing irony to the Slash-masses
"They love it because it takes the cash out of the hands of 18-year-old clerks," Nickerson said.
Okay, I'm all for new conviences, but I think this is quite a bit unfair. I ran a cash register for Marshall's starting when I was 16, and ending when I was 19. My highest drawer variance was 13 cents, and the most expensive thing i took home was a pen from a register.
During my time there, 13 people where fired for dishonesty, and there was no trend in the age- people of all generations got canned for theft, including a 63 year old lady.
Really, I'm 23 now, but is there that much a problem with the youth being dishonest nowadays, moreso then anyone else? Please, do tell me.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Maybe I am unclear on this, but I use the same debit card 95% of the time at the Kroger I visit for my groceries. Do they have to agree to something saying they won't just use my unique cc number to track my purchases? And even still, is it technically against the rules to grep the data from the card for my name that is encoded on the strip and use that to track my purchases?
Furthermore, most stores have the "happy consumer tracking" card that many of us keep on our keychain, and to complicate the "tracking" argument further, the fingerprint thing is completely optional, as all of the methods I mentioned are today--
JUST USE CASH PEOPLE!!!!!
El Karma: excelente(principalmente la suma de moderación hecha a los comentarios de los usuarios)
Sorry but los alamos is not in nevada - but NM. New Mexico
1984 isn't just a book any more.)
It's called Singapore.
Though I always have my wallet I would love to not have to carry it. You are more likely to get mugged on the way to the store than have someone fake your fingerprint and buy things!
Unless someone mugs you and takes your fingers.
Amazed that a man would live so long, the London head-office naturally sent for the old man.
But they found nobody: turns out that the guy died some 30 years before. As he was illiterate, he endorsed his pension cheques with his thumbprint. When he died, the family "forgot" to notify the company, and they still cashed the cheques with his thumb, which was neatly mummified right after they cut it off...
Think again.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Even using cash can seem unsecure if you are parinoid enough. For instance, you withdraw 50$ from an ATM in the mall. Cross reference that with the purchaces made in the next 50 minutes and then filter anything >$75. They can quickly build a list of possible purchaces which will become increacingly accurate over time. The mall has the ability to do this as they probably own the ATM or have access to the log.
Ok, so now you are to the point where you can no longer withdraw cash form the mall ATM. You may be thinking, "I'll just use the QuickieMart ATM down the street." In time, and with better AI software, the places where you get cash annonymously will shrink. Right now, I consder the counter at my local bank the only place to get cash and not have my name cross-referenced to an ammount and then published to the world. But who knows what kind of deal your bank may have with local merchants. Even if they don't share your info, someone clever enough can find your pay scale, subtract your bills, and target you for specific advertisements based on what you will likely buy. Even knowing that it really isn't difficult for a 3rd party to find out how much free cash you have every month can scare the hell out of you.
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
If I ever find-out that someone is getting free groceries from them and is registered under the finger print system, I will kill that person (or not), cut off their hand, and bring that hand with me everytime i go grocery shopping.
Anybody got ideas on how I can conceal the fact I got a decaying hand with me?
I can see my credit card bills stating I owe them one finger each. Ouch.
I think everyone would give them the same finger.
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when they take them from my cold, dead hands.
Wait a minute -- this makes credit fraud potentially lethal, instead of just extremely inconvenient!
deus does not exist but if he does
The main advantage of the new system, Kapioski said, is the security. People no longer have to worry that their cards will be lost or stolen and then used to run up hefty charges.
What bugs me about this is that people shouldn't have to worry now--credit card fraud (which is not identity fraud) is covered by the credit card issuers. Even that $50 thing which is talked about is usually waived.
The only way this helps with fraud is that it reduces the amount of times the credit card is pulled out--obviously when your card is pulled out someone could quickly read the number and expiration date. (Hopefully all the merchants you go to no longer print the entirety of the credit card number and expiration date on the card. I just spoke in front of the Ohio General Assembly about passing a law to prevent that here.)
The vast majority of credit card fraud is online credit card fraud--which is an issue, by all means. However most companies have address verification now, and if the fraudster gets your address, then you got another problem altogether.
Fraud with a card in a store is too expensive and personal, and is generally avoided. It does happen (a fake credit card printed with your credit card number and expiration date, a fraudster's credit card remagnetized with a new credit card number, and in unusual situations, a stolen card with a new signature strip.) The least likely is someone just using a stolen credit card as is.
I think what's funny is that, as I said, credit card fraud is not identity fraud. However, by tying the credit card to your fingerprint, suddenly subverting the system becomes identity fraud. That's progress for ya.
Unfortunately this opens up the possibility of simply taping a photocopy of somebody else's thumbprint onto my own thumb.
No, it doesn't, because you're BUYING GROCERIES.
It doesn't have to be impenetrable. There are easier, and less detectable, ways to fraudulently buy groceries. You think nobody on line behind you is going to notice you walking around with a photocopy of a fingerprint TAPED to your THUMB?
The supermarket is not your lab, Dr. Biscuit.
Or they'll just cut of your thumb, keep it nice and warm and have nice and easy access...personally, I'd rather just have my keycard stolen
Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
The uniqueness of fingerprints is important when considering criminal convictions where there's little or no other direct evidence besides latent prints, but it's not a big concern here.
A far easier attack here is to swap out the record in the database. If it doesn't have good auditing, it would be trivial to swap in somebody else's prints, make a large purchase of easily fenced goods, then swap the original prints back in without detection.
You could probably even just add additional prints as an additional purchaser. But that's risky since those prints could then be used by investigators.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Otherwise...
Keep in mind any time you let the store handle the financing, and don't use cash, you are paying more than the price of the item.. you are paying with your privacy.
Welcome mates,
/. ecosystem.
DrBiscuit is a new form of troll interesting I caught it after it's 3rd post. Posing as a female los alamos empolyee the troll seems to have an agenda of seeing if the false id can garner support. An interesting addition to the
Join me next week as I Mongoose the troll hunter search for the elusive first poster
Crikey!
I see one now!
So let's hope that the criminals are up to date in the latest advances of fingerprint scanning and are also aware of this small problem.
While I was semi-joking in my previous post, I gotta wonder how many people will get fingers cut off when fingerprint scanners become commonplace. A digit could be worth a lot of money for a couple of hours at least. And somehow I doubt grocery stores will go for the very advanced and secure systems that would be able to detect anomalies such as lack of pulse or body heat.
Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
What is to prevent someone from making a wax/plastic copy and then applying this overtop of their actual fingerprints??
This method solves the texture problem (if done correctly), the color is easy to duplicate, and the pulse...well the imposter also has a pulse so getting around that is piece of cake!!
Iris scans are also vulnerable by using a similar approach...one takes the iris image of the victim and imprints it onto a contact lenses and then wears them...how would an iris scanner be able to tell the person is a imposter...it probably wouldn't...so much for biometrics.
And that's the problem...many people assume that biometrics are fullproof, but in reality they are far from it...
Now one may say..."nothing is 100%, but biometrics is very secure"...that may be, but in those instances where a system is compremised, there is then NO WAY TO REVOKE AND REISSUE A NEW KEY since biometrics by their very nature are difficult to change unless one wants to undergo very expensive surgery.
Bottom line is that biometrics, like any security method is not fullproof and needs to be used wisely; or in some applications should not be used at all.
Right now, they track all sorts of stuff (I used to work at a grocery store that implemented a loyalty card program) ... with biometrics it's even easier.
On the plus side, since biometrics are perceived to be "more secure" than a loyalty card, let's add the possibility to store your payment information in a Windows IIS Server that is located at the central database.
Now you can even pay as well as sending your buying habits ...
I've worked with biometrics ... once you get past the bullsh^H^H^H^H^H^H white papers ... its actually one more piece to go wrong with the system.
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
Why wouldn't a thief just grab some scotch tape or whatever device is similar to what forensics labs use to lift prints?
:-)
Just notice what finger the purchaser in front of you uses, when you buy your groceries you lift the print, then go home and transfer that to some vinyl/rubber/whatever mold/model, and apply to the apropo thumb.
Then you just shop at times when the store personnel aren't likely to know the person you've stolen the print from, or even another store completely. If it doesn't work (I'm sure that even for the real person this might happen occasionally) just pay with cash and be on your way.
Like others have noted, Schneier wrote about the downsides of biometrics in "Secrets and Lies". I was ok with them as an id device until that book.
Of course, I've just tagged myself as a subversive element in the Echelon database. Let's just hope they don't have a Tempest surveillance system on me as well.
Anyone remember the original Batman movie (the Adam West one) where Penguin has his fingers encased in plastic to get into the Bad Cave? I know it was more complicated than that, but it was funny.
"I don't know who you are, so I'll take you to my super-secret hideaway to discover your identity. What, you're a super-villan? I never would've guessed. Your disguise was transparent but strangely effective."
Triv
LOTS of people (chefs, labourers) don't have fingerprints due scarring, heavy labour, burns etc.
As far as I know the crossover accuracy ratio for finger print biometric techniques is low.
The few systems I've encountered, fingerprints are not used to uniquely identify people, just as a verification - people still need to swipe a card or enter a pin, then the fingerprint is used for verification.
Do they have a new technique? There's nothing on the Indivos or Bioscrypt websites stating the crossover rates etc.
Being a seattle resident. . . .
.), those the local store for a while was hosting some sort of cheese festival, it was a paid admittance thing. Ugh.
Thriftway, despite there name, is an establishment that caters to the middle and upper class portions of society. Their customers tend to be retired citizens or soccer moms.
Besides the very fact that I get damn nearly nauseous just going in there (no seriously, I think that they sprayed the damn place with "odor of extravagant spending" or something ), candy bars alone have a 200% price market from the local safeway. Ouch.
They rarely have any sales (or at least any that reduce prices to something halfway decent) and have 'guided tours' of their stores (what the hell ever. . .
Annyways, as I way saying. . . . ok actually no point to this message other then to say that the middle and upper classes suck. -_-
--- teh classissist
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
How about the cashier? I read a previous poster's comment about how he doesn't care about ID or signatures. I'm sure he'd perk up right quick if you were waving around a bloody stump of a thumb, though.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Even worse, dose the government sanction the revelation of one of their major secrets? That Los Alamos is located in Nevada instead of New Mexico? I think they'd be most upset about that one.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Yes, I think nobody would notice. Not if you were discreet about it, and the photocopy was small and colored the same as your finger.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Hunh... An interesting idea, but what if someone had their fingerprints burned off? I guess we could go to retinal scanners, but I've never liked sticking my eye up to some random machine. DNA scanners would need blood, voice recognition differs too much with attitude and health, and facial recognition is in its infancy.
Maybe, if someone could develop a system with, say, a two by three inch plastic card with someone's name on it, we could circumvent the whole deal. Yeah, it would be great! No more worrying about whether the machine would work, or your fingers were dirty, or someone had your prints - just slide the card and go through. We could even put a strip with bumps or - no, I've got it - a _magnetic strip_ with information identifying that person! As long as you didn't lose it - a far easier eventuality to avoid than, say, accidentally leaving your fingerprints on something - security would be perfect.
You think it'll catch on?
Wouldn't work - the finger usually needs to be attached. It is some kind of capacitance/heat thing.
Dude, where's my finger?!??
Petru
I'm in Australia. We have a 'four pillars' banking policy, with the biggest two continually angling to buy out the smaller two -- probably politically impossible, but it doesn't stop them trying.
:(
Most of the smaller banks are owned by one of these four.
deus does not exist but if he does
The number of input nodes depends upon the length of the feature vector, which varies from machine to machine (and with firmware upgrades). The output layer also varies from machine to machine, depending upon if we want a confidence measurement, and a few other factors. The hidden layer is dependent upon the training. for preprocessing, a PC uses a backprop/simulated annealing/GA combo. The genetic algorithm only changes the number of nodes in the hidden layer and picks from a small subset of the features, thus it isn't much of a GA. We figure, this way the GA can remove the temperature features without the marketing people bothering us about it. The simulated annealing is because the training is rerun on the PC whenever a new thumb is entered into the database, and a IMHO, every trainer should use simulated annealing to speed things up. Especially on low-end hardware.
Pretty much all biometric tools work this same way. We've reverse engineered some competitors, and found similar systems, so I'm not really giving away any trade secrets here.
Bringing irony to the Slash-masses
We have some room for error for false-negatives, but I agree that those are annoying.
Bringing irony to the Slash-masses
Pardon me, but as, for example this document, and multiple others state. Fingerprint ID has a false positive identification rate just under one percent. And gross biometric accuracy of 1:500.
:))
Simple mathematics applied, when the store gets some success, and it's customer base exceeds 500 or let's say even thousand - you are likely to always match someone else's fingerprint.
Sincerely, fingerprints were not made for shopping.
Is sharing your fingerprint with their "partners" because you didn't know you had to opt out before you were born.
The less people who have access to biometric information from which they can infer genetic information that they could then use to discriminate against me, the better.
"I'm sorry sir, but our partner Thriftway provided us with information that indicates that you have a genetic predisposition to liver cancer; we are going to have to deny you medical insurance."
If they insist on my fingerprints, I'm outta there.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
it takes the cash out of the hands of 18-year-old clerks
nah, it's because they just waste on having fun.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
The two big problems with this are the likelihood of misidentification and the fact that you can't just get a new fingerprint if somebody gains the ability to buy stuff with yours. (I feel the tracking problem is less severe because people are already tracking us with credit/debit card numbers and the world hasn't ended)
The identification problem is a very hard. As our pal Schneier likes to point out, a system that answers the question "is this person who they say they are" with impressive accuracy isn't necessarily any good at answering the question "who is this person". The accuracy drops fast as the number of people in the system increases. But don't throw out this system just yet. Is the base accuracy high enough, or can we keep the population low enough for the error rate to be acceptable? When Phil in L.A. is scanned at the supermarket, do we really need to consider Joe in N.Y. as a possible match(*)? Can we weed out more people with other checks before the fingerprint match is performed? I don't know the error rate of the best fingerprint matchers, but I need to know that, and the population size, and do the math if I'm going to reject a fingerprint id system on grounds of the misidentification risk.
The other big problem is devastating to your ability to use a biometric id system, but not to anything else. A stored reading can be marked as compromised in the system so an attacker can't use it any more. You won't be able to use it either, but you haven't lost anything you had before the system was put in place (unless some pea-brain decides that this shall be the only way to pay). You haven't even lost everything you gained when the system was implemented. You now have a choice to dictate that only a debit card + a finger print is enough to make a puchase with your account, which is safer than the credit card alone, although no more convenient.
Please, truly consider the benefits and liabilities of any new system and the system it replaces. At the very least, it'll make for more stimulating discussion than an endless stream of "this is bound to fail catastrophically" posts.
* And when Joe travels to L.A., we know where he is because we tracked his ticket purchase ;->
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Pick your nose in line conspicuously and deposit the gem right in the middle of the pad. When people see/feel the booger, they'll freak out and not use it.
Well, if you kill someone and chop his hands off, he's not going to be calling and canceling the account anytime soon.
I hope its a PIN, because people in a common zip code tend to use a grocery store(I would think). West Seattle is off the beaten path, likely only West Seattleites will use it, making all zip codes 98116 (or 98106 if they want to drive a few miles). But entering a PIN then placing the finger down sounds fairly safe.
I recently fell victim to check fraud, someone stole a checkbook and wrote $1300 in checks to grocery stores in Seattle. A few of the checks were to Thriftway. Assclowns obviously never checked the id of the person writing checks in any of the stores. Bah.
"America, I smoke marijuana every chance I get."
if they had a pulse detector like a million other people mentioned, there would be no reason for anyone to take anybody else's fingers. that's just silly. think a little next time! technology can solve bugs too sometimes! (that is a real big sometimes of course)
Yeah, and technology can solve problems for criminals as well. The fact that a finger has a pulse is a lame way to detect if it's alive... a battery operated pump could easily fake out a detector.
gives a new meaning to 'caught red handed'.
You think on-line transations get expensive after they become mainstream? That strikes me as odd. Credit card rates that should be have been criminialized were in place long before the net went mainstream. In fact, it's not unreasonable to suspect that exact issue might have been one of the big reasons e-commerce didn't fly. It was starting out the gate with a tax going to the card companies, and for what, money handling? Isn't the government supposed to provide the currency.
According to the Constitution that's how it was supposed to go.
Net banking fees emerged AFTER it went mainstream?
Sorry, that's factually incorrect.
I would hack upon this idea yet and make it scary. If you use a debit or credit card you've already tied your purchases to yourself. I don't mind if the police or the store knows I buy the cheap Zippo fluid and not the real thing.
Sometimes people actually don't care about privacy - they want technology to work for them to make things like shopping easier.
The problem I have is when you have to give them a fingerprint for food. Just because this system has been "invented" doesn't mean we must become evil. That will be up to us.
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