Slashdot Mirror
Are American Vacation Policies Outdated?
GiorgioG asks: "Am I the only one who sees US vacation policies as outdated compared to Europe? If I have 3-4 weeks of vacation time, why is it that most companies won't allow you to take more than 1 or 2 consecutive weeks of time off - especially if you aren't performing a 'mission-critical' function. I find it quite frustrating, considering I only want to take 1 long vacation a year (to visit family in Europe.)" This depends, of course, on the types of vacation policies found in Europe and those types found here in the US. So what do both sides of the fence have to say about what they have seen on the other side when it comes to vacation time?
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A shout out to all you people! Hell world HOW ARE YOU! Peace and Love and Good Happyness Stuff!
USA is Socialistic Country, it is more of a capilistic country. In Europe the countries set the rules for vacations while in the US, the companies set the polices. Also in Europe, there is a max number of hours you can work per week.
Americans work more hours than anyone except the Japanese. However, one might also note that employment % and productivity are higher in the United States than in Europe.
On the other hand, America's educational results sucks compared to countries which go to school all year 'round.
So one might postulate the following:
1) When people work more, more work gets done.
2) When children learn more, more learning gets done.
Amazing results, huh?
The goatse guy for president. Win one for the gaper!
Old co-worker of mine told me that when he lived in Australia most people did not leave their jobs, because the vacation time was huge. There are companies that give 3 months per year, after 20 years of service. The average person has 4 weeks off per year.
If this is true, it is no wonder that the turnover "down under" is next to nil.
anything coming out of america having grammar errors, typing mitchmathces and like, are not so "good". and those typo's were in the topic, title...
When I was a reporter working on a monthly magazine, I got paid vacation (I think 1 week for the first year, 2 weeks per year after that) but guess what, during the month when I took the vacation I pretty much had to write the same number of words.
Later, when I was an attorney, I got paid vacation time but again, my billable hour 'guidelines' for the year didn't really seem to reflect any weeks off. (Later, working for the same law firm, I switched to a straight model of getting paid per billable hour, instead of a salary, and ever since then I've had no paid vacations at all, nearly 10 years now).
Ultimately, paid vacation is just something you negotiate for, and it's part of the equation for how much your employer thinks it can pay. Unfortunately, vesting rules for vacation days often create a perverse incentive for a manager to actually fire someone (just before the days vest).
I suspect that a majority of Slashdot's readers can really pick their own vacation schedules, and if they wanted 5 weeks of vacation, they'd get it, but they'd get paid 3/52nds less than if they just took 2 weeks of paid vacation, all other things being equal. A substantial minority may work for anal-retentive corporations that won't allow any special cases, even unpaid days off during periods when there is no critical need for that labor.
Sigh. Last September, I took my first real vacation in more than 5 years -- and my first-ever vacation to Europe. Surprise! My week-long vacation was extended to two weeks because my original return flight was scheduled for September 12. I'm sure that 90% of employers would be understanding in that extraordinary situation, though it's unclear how many would give extra paid days of vacation.
I must admit that vacation and days off are less important to me, than for many folks, because I don't have a spouse or kids. Trying to book vacations when there are so many schedules to work with, and when so many "personal days" may pop up to deal with kids' medical needs or competitions or whatever, must be a nightmare.
Finally, my understanding is that the way much of Europe deals with those four weeks of vacation, is that everybody has to take them at the same time, and business essentially shuts down during the month of August. Is that the model we aspire to?
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
I don't know. Are they are?
Yes, thank you, that dependency was not clear to anyone.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Heck, the agency I'm with now doesn't offer any vacation time during the first year; you have to borrow against the following year's allotment -- which amounts to two weeks spread out over two years. Ugh.
End result: it's become yet another item one has to bargain for when going through the experienced hire job hop. And you might find you'll need to trade away more than you expected (in terms of salary, perks, etc.) if time off is really that important to you.
Well... at least until the job market opens up some; then it's safe to play a bit of hardball again. =)
Are you are thinking are there's are an are extra are word are in are there?
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
...we're more or less encourage to take most, if not all our vacation in one large block, usually during July. This so called "industry vacation" usually means that the entire country grinds to a virtual halt during the summer months. Quite distressing really...
Anyhoo, it's of course up to the employer to accept your vacation request, but I'd be surprised if anybody was denied vacation (even five consecutive weeks or more) unless a project depended on it.
Oh, and btw, five weeks is the legal minimum. I've had two employers so far that offered six week vacation contracts.
May we live long and die out
they are outdated. I have worked in three countries (Canada, Japan and the UK), and the policies in North America fall somewhere in between Japan and Europe.
Note that there is considerable variation within Europe itself (ie/ the UK was thought the 'workaholic' of the EU -- strange but true), between Canadian provinces and between US states. Moreover, it would make more sense to speak of a spectrum of vacation attitudes and sensibilities.
To generalise though, there is a stronger work ethic in the US than in Canada and Europe. Calvinist Protestantism at one time was thought to be a prime source (cf. Weber), as well as the free-market capitalist orientation. In my personal experience the European attitude is preferable, as I feel that living in a culture goes beyond the confines of just working, working, working all the time. It is much more in tune with how I would like to be. Others may differ, and that's fair enough.
In all honesty, I'm going back the first chance I get. You *can* have the best of all worlds.
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-- Pavese
My current job (at a State University) started me at 3 weeks per year, and if I stick around I'll get to five weeks per year. I can bank up to something like 1040 hours (26 work weeks), then it's a use-it-or-lose-it scheme. I also get 2 weeks of sick leave per year, and that can be banked to 1040 hours as well. It's also pretty lax with flex time. If I work a late night or weekend fixing or installing a machine, it goes into a under-the-table vacation bank (sanctioned by my manager, of course), which I use for extra vacation/sick time.
My last job at a small software shop started at 2 weeks per year and you could only bank 4 or 6 weeks before you lost it. There was no distinction between sick and vacation time, just a generic "leave" bank, which was really lame.
I'm getting paid less here (or at least I was when I left the last job), but I feel far better off now.
My plan is to transition to a more consultant/freelance self-employed state over the next 5-10 years, so that I can spend even more time with my kids as they get older (and before they leave the nest).
I guess it's all about your priorities. I know people my age with far different priorities, who take little time off, have no kids, and easily make twice my salary. I know guys in sales (yuck!) that work pretty much when and where they want to.
So here in the States, you have to taylor your job to fit your life goals. The government won't enforce anything more than minimum wage and safe workplaces, which I suppose is fine (I have too much of a libertarian tendancy to expect/want anything more).
Method of processing duck feet
The other downside was that days "off" were docked against vacation, but overtime was not recognized, so if you worked from 8:00AM one morning, through the night, to 10:00 AM the next day, and left to get some sleep, you got DOCKED 6 hours against your vacation.
It got to the point where I was not accruing vacation anymore (the use it or lose it rule), except if I pulled an all-nighter and took the next day off: I'd lose a day of vacation, but earn it back that month.
I now work in a better shop (startup as opposed to established company), with saner hours, and smarter people -- heck, there have been days when my boss left after I did (he's no slouch).
As for my former job, I hope all the assholes there die a horrible, slow, painful death. I suppose I could've taken the attitude of not giving a shit, but our customers included major world telcos, and our screwups would've affected tens of millions of their customers. I couldn't do that to the world.
Most jobs, your co-workers can't do without you. someone's got to do what YOU do while you are gone. Business doesn't just get put on hold while you're in Disneyland.
leave conditions etc are generally worked out by industry/company here in australia, and four weeks is the average. i get six weeks because i don't get any public holidays/long weekends.
despite that, i think you'd be hard pressed to find a company where everyone used their entitlements every year.
the lack of leave in the US is really outdated considering the era of 'family friendly' working conditions etc.
However, one might also note that employment % and productivity are higher in the United States than in Europe.
You are wrong on the first point. Comparing a country to a continent isn't right either.. Europe has some truly awful countries in it (economy wise).
Current US unemployment is 5.7% and rising. Current UK unemployment is 5.1% and falling.
mogorific carpentry experiments
I don't know about vacations but I sure could use a good nap.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
I think that it would be good for employers to give employees longer vacations and more time off. But instead of deducting from their paychecks, they should just give them everything and let them save up for their own vacations.
On a slightly unrelated note, you get a wide variety of vaction plans and coffee break styles, even within the same country.
My brother's wife works for a company that gives her around 5 weeks off, and she works in the payroll dept. Apparently, she's quite good. She gets paid a fairly decent wage too.
On the other extreme, I've had low end retail jobs. One time I asked if I could go on a coffee break assuming that I was entitled to 2 15 paid breaks. But the manager wouldn't allow that. She insisted that it all [30 minute lunch + 2 15s] be done at once, and even tried to reduce it.
"Is it alright if I go on a break now?"
"You have to go?"
That didn't sit well with me. Another employer gave an unpaid 30 minute lunch for each 6 hours of work, and an unpaid 15 only if you worked an 8 hour shift. Another employer gave one 30 minute paid coffee for 4 hours of work, another 15 minute paid coffee if there was another 2 hours after that, and a 30 minute unpaid lunch if hours worked totalled 8 hours. That was a unionized company.
As people go higher up the ladder and to better careers they'll get better breaks and holidays in general.
I believe that it would be best if companies asked employees to come in for approx. 8 hours, and paid them for the expected work. It would be entirely up to the employee to budget the time and money according to the employee's needs. If I need 4 hours of break today, and manage to complete the tasks, then lucky me. If not, then too bad. There are days when I don't mind working longer just to have a sense of acheivement. While there are others when I wish that I could relax a bit more and enjoy life.
Negotiating for a new contract every year would give *both* employees *and* employers a better sense of control, and it would allow them both to adapt to the changing winds of the economy.
testing out my trending skills
I personally find that the best solution for me is to stick to contractor type positions, and take a lot of vacation time between contracts. This works well for me because I am single and love to travel and work in different cities.
;)
Naturally, working as a contractor is risky and can be tough in a slow economy. If you're a good engineer, save your money, and can live in a relatively cheap area, it's not too bad, though.
I find it exciting to always be doing something new, work on the latest technology, and take a few months off at a time for some kick-ass vacations.
Your milage may vary.
Negotiating often works. Ferinstance I negotiated for three day weekends, every weekend. (Yes, I only work 32 hours a week). I looked at my salary vs my commission and the fact that Mondays and Fridays were the slowest days for me and discovered that I would only lose out on a couple hundred dollars a month. My boss was happy as he still gets 90% of my 40-hr a week productivity and I'm happy because I get 50% more time off. I do still come in on Mondays once in awhile when we have projects that require it of course, but that's not even once a month. :).
So yeah, especially in today's economy, your employer might be more flexible than you'd expect (as long as you do the math and present it in an appropriately business-like manner/perspective
The reason is obvious: if you've been cooking the books, you won't want to let them out of your sweaty little clutches, so it's a basic security precaution that you be thrown out of the office every so often, letting somebody else take over your work materials so they'll notice if you've been trying to pull a fast one.
Kind of different from programming, where managers are constantly trying to get you to postpone or skip or shorten your vacations.
In the Netherlands, about 23 days per year is the minimum by law. I've got 31 days, with an option to buy upto 21 extra days, or sell at most 5 days.
:)
You're "expected" to take one big holliday of 3 weeks, but you don't have to. You just have to coordinate with your boss.
When you buy 21 days, you can work 4x9 (instead of 5x8, which is normal), or you can just do 3 vacations of 3 weeks and still take the christmas-week off.
Most IT-jobs are less flexible, just 23 days is often what they'll give you.
Chris
In Germany (from what I heard) the gov requiers people to take a 6 week vacation. I recived a job offer from a German company and took it - 6 week vacation, company BMW (with paid 1000km a month for private use) med and dental.
The downside to all this - I was taxed 55%. I quit after a year becouse I was working for a tax, it was so depressing looking at your statment and seeing all that money go away.
So the moral of the story, in the end you pay for that vacation with your taxes!
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
After reading though some of the posts, I really started thinking about our labour law.
We get overtime for any hours worked beyond eight (8) in a day, or fourty (40) in a week.
I'm not sure about a standard vacation package, but so far, every company for whom I have worked provides two weeks to start, and increase the longer you work for the company.
We get seven general holidays per year. If we work on the holiday we get time and a half.
Admittedly, our dollar is not nearly as high as the U.S. dollar, but the regulation of the labour rules really makes a difference to my sanity.
At least what I call sanity. ^_^
At my place of employment, a University I get 4 weeks leave, which can be banked up to 8 weeks, at which point it sits there and wont go any higher.
I get 15 days sick leave a year.
After 10 years I get long service leave which is 3 months at full pay or 6 months at half pay off.
I can also cash in 4/52th of my pay and have an extra 4 weeks giving me 8 weeks leave per year.
As well we work flex time, and I can flex up to 1 day a week per fortnight (= 2 weeks in Australian)
i.e. work 9 days in every 10.
I do get payed significantly less (approx 25% excluding Super which when added in makes the difference about 10%)
than I would in an industry job, but with 2 young kids, and a Doctor for a wife (who works for her self, and get no paid
leave, its great to have such a flexable job.
Dave...
Here in Canada, the legally required minimum is two weeks, plus 5 sick days (plus public holidays). That's what most companies offer around Toronto.
Quite pathetic, when most countries around the world offer 2 or 3 times that.
You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
I work for a state gov't, and we get a pretty liberal amount of vacation time.
We accumulate one workday (7.5 hours) of vacation per month, plus up to seven bonus days (1 your first year, 2 your second, etc) and can accrue up to 300 hours a year. You get 11.5 hours a month after ten years. Then you get a week of personal time and 5.5 hours of sick time. If you accumulate 1200 sick hours over the course of your career, you can use that banked time to pay for your health insurance when you retire.
The policies for taking time off vary, in some groups its very hard to get large blocks of time, in others its very easy.
People always consider gov't jobs to be low pay, but that really isn't true, if you consider the time you get, the excellent health benefits and great retirement program, you're actually making out pretty good in the end, esp for IT people.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Until recently, I was working for a Japanese company. I have to say
that the vacation policies in Japanese companies are a lot worse than typical
US companies.
For one thing, there was no sick time. So, if you were to get
sick, you will have to use your vacation time. You only get 10 days
of vacation time in the first year after 6 months of work. The vacation
time will only go up to two weeks in the next 5 years. There is almost
no way to take a vacation more than a week at a time. In fact, most
people I know will only take a day or two at a time.
There was such a thing as overtime. However, it worked very strange
way. Let me explain. Suppose you work from 9 am to 6 pm (which
is typical work hour in Japan rather than 8-5 in the US). Many companies
"requires" you to take 30 minutes break before the overtime work starts,
so the clock will not start ticking for overtime until 6:30 pm. Does
anybody take that 30 minutes break? Well, that hardly ever happens.
So, almost always you work for 30 minutes for free for your company.
This may not seem a lot, but if you do this almost everyday, it will add
up very quickly. In some companies, overtime was often not granted
(legally, they do, but not in reality).
I was lucky that at least my company didn't usually have any (mandatory)
work related night outs (although I had to go a few times). These
night outs with your co-workers are not really mandatory, but they are
in reality. If you don't go one of these, you will not advance in
your company. I was actually "suggested" to go one of these once by my boss because of that.
Many people I know often works on Saturdays as well (5 days/week is
relatively new in Japan, and many small companies are still working 6 days/week).
I have to say that I have quitted that work in a Japanese company (of
course, there were some other problems with that particular company that
made me to quit).
So the morale here is, don't complain about the work situations in
the US. It could be worse. Yes, the US companies may not let
you take vacation more than 2 weeks at a time, but they at least let you
take more than a week at a time. Of course, if the US government
tries to have people take European type mandatory 4 weeks (or however long
that may be) vacation, I am pretty sure some people will be upset like
anything, as they believe the government cannot force them to take vacations
that long (whatever the reason maybe).
"...what do both sides of the fence have to say...?"
It's an ocean, not a fence, duh.
it depends on the company and your manager. I work in a fortune 500 tech company and i routinely see people taking 1 or 2 month long vacations a year. of course this may explain why this company is about to self destruct...
Scuttlemonkey is a troll
Over here in Germany I get the pretty much standard 30 days paid time off which I can take in .5 day fragments. Last year I took four consecutive weeks off. What's more: I work 35 hours a week. Every hour of overtime on top of those 35 hours I get as paid time off or recompensated in cash at a substantially higher rate.
I suppose, with 2 weeks of vacation time a year, most employees in the US call in a lot more sick time and slack off at the workplace.
Welcome to the modern version of slavery. You work 9 to 5, giving the best hours of the day to your master during the week. You spend the weekends recovering from the stress and BS from the week. Then, you might get to take off for a week or two.
Sorry, but this is inaccurate, not informative, but it does bring up a good point. The reason that vacation policies are so different outside the US is because business is the strongest force in government policiy.
In Europe, the trade unions are much stronger and the governments more democratic, hence more people-centered economic policies.
The reason that taxes are high has little to do with taxes per se. Because the trade unions and political left parties are much stronger and hence the welfare states are more expansive.
Personally, i wouldn't mind the taxes to enjoy more security, almost no crime, little poverty and those long vacations
It is by coff... er, will, alone I set my mind in motion...
Gee, I wonder if people like you who work long hours for low pay because they're here on H-1B visas are the reason that so many American workers are unemployed. If you don't like the conditions, get out.
Damn hot. Keep them in for 9 months of winter and of course they are going to want a month to party!!!