The Plague of Frogs

jpbostic writes "According to this article on MSNBC, ag folks in Hawaii were considering using powdered caffeine to help rid themselves of an infestation of frogs from Puerto Rico. The EPA's application regulations apparently proved too burdensome and the stuff sits in a warehouse. If the EPA is really concerned with the danger, they should investigate the coffee in some restaurants *quoth the caffeine addict*. :-)"

Comments

Holy shit..

[I.T.R.A.R.K.]

..when I first read that headline, I thought the French were invading!

Frogs on caffeine

[abh]

I can't be the only one, who, after reading the posting, immediately had visions in my head of hyper wacked-out frogs jumping all over the place...

Am I?

Re:Frogs on caffeine

[dangermouse]

Heh. Because the caffeine would make them jumpy.

I'm sorry. I'm going to go take a nap now. Moderators, do what you must.

Re:Frogs on caffeine

[dagoalieman]

No, you're not the only one, but IIRC it won't happen.

I **vaguely** recall hearing that the caffiene has an adverse effect on their nervous system, in essense blocking the signals from the brain and to the brain. As in once they get it in them (dunno if it's absorption or consumption) they just don't move.. and shut down.

Someone please correct me. That's so vague on details that I'm SURE I've at least got part, if not all of it, wrong. Hopefully the real solution is better than freezing to death, though...

.

Re:Frogs on caffeine

[ahaning]

As with most topics, a cursory search of Google popped up this link. The relevant part:

Caffeine is a central nervous system stimulant that interferes with a neurotransmitter in the brain called adenosine. Caffeine also acts at other places in the body to increase heart rate, constrict blood vessels, relax air passages, and affect muscles. An overdose of caffeine is lethal to the coqui frog.

There is a link there to another page with examples of what they sound like. Though I'm rather against killing anything just to kill it, these ARE an alien species...so...erg. It's still a tough call. Damn conscience!

Re:Frogs on caffeine

[Seth Finkelstein]

According to the article, the frogs do freak out

First, the researchers decided to spray the frogs with an overdose of caffeine.
"It's like they have a heart attack," Matayoshi explained, "from like a hundred cups of coffee."
The scene is not pretty. "They freak out," said Matayoshi, the hunter who is not unsympathetic to his prey.

Frogs on a hundred cups of coffee ... what an image. Lots of little cappuccino cups?

Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)

Won't work.

[Kyeo]

The frogs would just annoy you and take no breaks.

Re:Won't work.

[gehrehmee]

Now if only we could teach them perl...

I dont like the french either ...

[Monkelectric]

but how will caffine help ?

Slow hunters?

[ElJefe]

On a smaller scale, of course, there is always hand-hunting, which is how Nilton Matayoshi has spent the last year capturing 40 frogs.

40 frogs in a year? That's less than one a week! If you're going to have a hobby, at least be good at it...

Re:Slow hunters?

[kcelery]

That does not work. Some area in southern China had such policy before in catching rats. Those guys who were rewarded for the catch found the business is profitable they start buying rats from the neighboring areas, or even farming rats.

I thought amphibians were disappearing?

[geoffsmith]

Amphibians, particularly frogs, are supposed to be an indicator species for pollution. From all accounts I've read they are dying off in great numbers around the world. Maybe because the live near the surface of the water, they are more sensitive to things like acid rain?

So why all the frogs? Hawaii... also Australia has also had a heck of a time with frogs, and in BC we've had a problem with huge frogs (the tadpoles are the size of your fist, and mature frogs so big they have been eating the ducks!) Just seems like contradictory evidence to me, maybe some species are heartier than others?

Websurfing done right! StumbleUpon

Re:I thought amphibians were disappearing?

[FFFish]

in BC we've had a problem with huge frogs

Er, eh? We have? Tell on, do. I'd like to see some of those monsters!

Re:I thought amphibians were disappearing?

[geoffsmith]

Try Elk lake on Vancouver Island. They have lots of them. Oh, and correction, duck=ducklings. Still, a frog that eats ducklings is a site to behold!

Re:I thought amphibians were disappearing?

[geoffsmith]

I can't seem to find anything online either. (although sometimes I just really can't find what I'm looking for using google) It was all over the papers for a while. Here's the only online reference I could find:

http://www.crd.bc.ca/parks/parkelk.htm

It mentions "giant bullfrogs." I'm not sure if it's the same frog, but it sounds like it is. They are humongous. And by the way, "duck" should be "ducklings" in my original post. It still takes a big frog to eat a duckling.

Re:I thought amphibians were disappearing?

[Tackhead]

> Amphibians, particularly frogs, are supposed to be an indicator species for pollution. From all accounts I've read they are dying off in great numbers around the world. Maybe because the live near the surface of the water, they are more sensitive to things like acid rain?

Solution obvious: Set up a huge coal-fired generator immediately to the east of Hawaii, and remove the scrubbers from the smokestacks!

It's arguably less-wasteful than having three tons of powdered caffeine sitting idle in a warehouse. If it ain't being used for the frogs, let me have some!.

(My only complaint with three tons of powdered caffeine in Hawaii is that it probably means there was an awful lot of good Hawaiian coffee that's been ruined by decaffeination.)

Yea great

[GMontag]

Yes, alleged tree huggers, mod me down.

The feds just can't quit, why the hell is it fed business if an infistation arrives to any State and that State is not allowed to eradicate the infevction?

Re:Yea great

[King_TJ]

My thoughts exactly! Once again, the federal govt. has to nose into what should be a state's own business and "protect" everyone from themselves.

I suppose they're going to try to justify it by claiming the frogs "crossed state lines", making it a federal case?

In the long run, I don't think something like a frog infestation problem is going to be cured without putting some sort of toxin or poison out. The sad thing is, there's probably a substance much more harmful to the ecosystem than some powdered caffeine that will end up being legal to use, simply because the FDA has already studied it and approved it.

Re:Forget the frogs!

[cduffy]

You don't want to. In substantial concentrations, it's poisonous.

Caffeine + Hunting

[sellerdoor]

Just give the caffeine to the local kids and promise another hit for every frog they can stomp.

I know a lot of little boys would jump at the opportunity.

About coqui

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Puerto Rico. I've always been thaught that coquis can not live outside of Puerto Rico, so their appearance in Hawaii comes as a surprise to me. The coqui is a "pet of sorts" here, if you bought a souvenir T-Shirt it would most likely have the picture of a coqui in it.

They are rarely heard in cities but they abound in other areas. I know of foreigners how can not handle the sound at first, but after awhile they get accustomed, just like us. (Maybe in Hawaii it got REALLY out of control.) If you can spot a coqui alone (that is, not in deafeaning armies), you'll probably agree that they are quite OK.

At one point coquis were believed to be headed for extinction.

Re:About coqui

[Micah]

I was also in Puerto Rico a few years ago and actually liked the sound of the things. And yeah, I have one of those souvenir t-shirts. :) I was told they only lived in PR, so I was also surprised to see this.

But isn't the noise exaggerated a bit? They wren't THAT loud. I don't even remember hearing them inside the house. Granted, I was in town (Bayamon, a suburb of San Juan). It's probably worse in the jungle.

Also, insects. Are there really so few insects in Hawaii that some frogs will endanger the birds by eating their food supply? Seems like more ways of getting rid of bugs is a GOOD thing.

PR certainly has agriculture and tourism, so any long term threat to Hawaii seems unlikely.

And in related news...

[bc90021]

...a plague of coders descended on Hawaii, eager to get at the caffeine and turn it into code!

Now the Hawaii ag folks have to figure out how to get rid of all the coders. An anonymous source in the state government was quoted as saying "Actually, we're thinking of holding them, and not releasing them. We are going to corner the geek market, and then make a fortune charging other states by the hour."

There is no word from the Whitehouse at this time regarding the swarm of geeks descending on Hawaii, but the President is expected to make a short statement later this evening.

A Potentially Lucrative Proposition� :-)

[NOT-2-QUICK]

First, approximately halfway through the article, we come to learn that "At one point, a hotel was paying bounty hunters $75 a frog, dead or alive."

We then learn later in the article that some areas possess frog population densities of up to "20,000 individuals an acre".

Now perhaps it is just me, but does this not sound as though it could be a quite lucrative prospect for a person with the appropriate amount of ingenuity and good old-fashioned entrepreneurial spirit... Just with some quick math, the potential industry of ridding the islands from the scourge of uninvited amphibians could be worth as much as $1.5 million per acre.

Of course, this is purely theoretical and such activities would hardly amount to such monetary windfalls, but it does make you think!!!

Frogs on Caffiene

[Eddy Johnson]

"Ribbitribbitribbitribbitribbitribbitribbitribbitr ibbitribbitribbitribbitribbit..."

One might think they've got a Hawaiian Frog techno mix running on repeat on the beaches.

sorry

[Lord Omlette]

but doesn't raw caffeine kill humans on contact? Absorbed through skin & all? Are they sure this is a good thing to be spraying around?

"The federal regulations proved too burdensome."

Hello?! Aren't these regulations in place to prevent we-had-to-destroy-the-village-to-save-it syndrome?

Oh my god, I can't resist

[abe ferlman]

We've come to one of the finest lilypads in the world and replaced this frog's caffeine powder with Folger's Crystals.

Let's see if she notices.

"Croak!"

There you have it folks!

Ya, but caffeine really is not that good

[Aqua OS X]

Don't get me wrong, I like caffeine, but it is not good for you. We have lots of studies to show this. I highly doubt that it is good for mother earth as well.

Re:Ya, but caffeine really is not that good

[Kintanon]

Oh give me a fucking break. "Mother Earth" Will eat every piece of waste our civilization ever produces, and the worst possible result is that we'll kill ourselves and a few other species off. It's not like caffeine isn't a naturally occuring substance ya fuckwit...

Kintanon

It's not giving caffeine to them....

[DarkHelmet]

It's taking it away from them that'll do the trick.

Just think about it... All those mornings that you rely on coffee to go to work. All those mornings that you need something to keep you awake, and not sleep in until noon. It's what prevents you from making your head explode.

Get them hooked on coffee. Not just something in the water, but the frigging powdered kind. Kind of like a drug addict, where they inject it. Frogs are different though. It would diffuse right through their skin.

Then, when you have an army of frogs addicted to the funny powder, stop giving it to them, and see what they do.

Re:It's not giving caffeine to them....

[Medevo]

I would wonder if the frogs would set up rehab centers, or would they just take it cold turkey.

Seriously Caffeine withdrawal in frogs could be quite a interesting phenomena,
The website Neuroscience for Kids - Frogs and Caffeine mentions that a overdose of caffeine is lethal to frogs.

I would only wonder how?

Medevo

Re:It's not giving caffeine to them....

[Tackhead]

> Get them hooked on coffee. Not just something in the water, but the frigging powdered kind. Kind of like a drug addict, where they inject it. Frogs are different though. It would diffuse right through their skin.

We all know that if you put a frog in a pot of water and heat it up slowly, the frog won't notice, and will boil to death.

Now you're telling me that if you put a frog in a pot of water with some nice fresh-roasted and fresh-ground coffee, and heat it up slowly, the frog will notice, but it just won't care. Cool! :-)

Meantime, I have visions of programmers on vacation in Hawaii sneaking out of the hotels at night to catch frogs and lick them in the same way that hippies and druggies lick toads for the bufotinin. (Except that the programmer gets paid $75 per frog for every "empty" frog he turns in ;-)

Re:GRAMMAR

[Guppy06]

Um... if you bothered to read the whole sentence you'd see that it's supposed to be posessive (as in "the application regulations of the EPA"). Or do we have multiple Environmental Protection Agencies in the US? Where are they getting all their funding?

Nice try at trolling. I give it an E for effort.

Photos

[loconet]

This page has some photos and more information about the frogs. They're very small!!

Just curious...

[mindstrm]

I assume you meant anbesol..

So rubbing a topical anaesthetic on a frogs head kills it?

And uhh.. why is it you are killing frogs? Serial killer in training?

Obligatory Simpsons Reference.

[glassware]

I didn't see it in the list, so I'll karma shoot myself.

Bart gets the boot in Australia - after making a prank call, Bart arrives in Australia, unknowingly bearing a simple ordinary bullfrog, whose progeny then goes nuts and devastates the Australian continent.

Marge: We have them in America. They're called bullfrogs.

Clerk: What? That's an odd name. I'd have called them "chazzwazzers".

Ribbit. Not only are the Simpsons running out of ideas, they're now predicting the Future. Any more episodes with Al Gore in them? Look for the season finale! </weak joke>

Absorbtion.

[Peale]

Frogs only eat moving objects (with very few exceptions). The caffiene is absorbed along with water directly into their bloodstream through their skin. It has a 'double-whammy' effect, affecting not only their nervous system, but it also drys them out.

Re:Cats might eat "poisonous" frogs

[kesuki]

First off the frogs in Hawaii aren't poisonous, and secondly while cats could 'eat' the frogs, they're far better at being trained to 'hunt' the frogs for rewards. If the cat had to actually eat the frogs is would soon grow sick of hunting them and move on to other prey. But if the cat is rewarded for each frog it brings in, it will bring in many frogs every single day to recieve rewards. A dozen or so trained cats could easily be used to clear a resort of the frogs. Animal trainers in hawaii could make a nice business selling trained cats to homeowners who were sick of the frogs mating calls. Cats have been used for centuries to control pests, and the cost of keeping them is sure to be less (at least for resorts) than using humans. Also cats have great night vision, so they're more effective at hunting the frogs than humans.

Caffeine toxicity - material safety data

[Seth Finkelstein]

The Material Safety Data Sheet for Caffeine has a lot of good information

Caffeine is toxic to the blood, lungs, nervous system, and mucous membranes. It is a human poison by ingestion and is a slight irritant of the skin and eye. The oral LD50 for caffeine is 127 mg/kg (mouse); the oral TD Lo for man is reported as 13 mg/kg.

Signs/Symptoms of Overexposure:
Exposure to ingested caffeine can cause convulsions, muscle spasms, tremors, poor muscle coordination, vomiting, and blood pressure increase. Continued excessive use in tea or coffee may lead to digestive disturbances, constipation, palpitations, shortness of breath, cardiac disorders, and depressed mental states.

Apparently, you'd have to drink a lot of coffee to get a lethal dose. But it does seem to possible to kill yourself (or approach it) with caffeine pills.

Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)

Re:Caffeine toxicity - material safety data

[IceFox]

When I was working on the LSDVD project someone sent us 80lbs of Jolt. It came in two crates of 20oz bottles. I put one of the crates in my cube and over the course of the day would chain drink the soda. About 2pm I found I couldn't control the mouse anymore. As not amused as I was I repeated it for a few more days untill the Jolt was all gone. (The other three memebers of the team did get some, but I am fairly sure that I accidently got most of it.)

-Benjamin

Re:Caffeine toxicity - material safety data

[darkonc]

As has been said many times, LD50 is the dose at which 1/2 the population would die. THis means that, for someone like me (who avoids coffee/caffine), sucking back 5 cups over a few minuts might very well kill me. Other people who regularly drink 8-10 cups a day have obviously developed a tolerance, and might even suffer mild withdrawal effects from reducing themselves to 5 cups/day.

Coqui, the only frogs with no tadpoles

[XBL]

These frogs are being studied for their evolutionary traits. Right from the egss hatch the frogs, as there is no intermediate state of a tadpole.

Maybe the lack of an intermediate stage has made this species even more hardy, and therefore more prevalent in Hawaii.

No matter what, the Coqui are there to stay in Hawaii. They will just have to get used to it.

Australian Cane Toads

[Permission Denied]

Years ago, my high school biology teacher liked to show this one film on Australian Cane Toads. Basically, these buggers were introduced intentionally in Australia to eat a particular kind of insect that was destroying crops. Problem was, these toads will eat anything, so they didn't go for the insects that would stay up high on the crops when they could eat anything else that crawled by.

They had a HUGE explosion of these things. This movie showed them in hoards. It also had this one scene with this hippie - the guy had a VW van and his hobby was to go around smashing these things. He would swerve the van from one side of the street to the other, running over the toads which would make a very satisfying pop. This hippie is the only thing I remember from high school biology.

So, my point is that these toads were introduced for an ecological reason (pest control), but apparently these guys didn't understand ecology all that well. Of course, this Hawaii thing is different since the frogs weren't introduced intentionally, but it seems toads/frogs have a talent for growing explosively.

smiley noses

[tps12]

From the article description:

:-)

Excess noses cost Internet providers billions annually. Consider that the noseless ":)" conveys as much information as ":-)" at two-thirds the cost in bandwidth.

Slashdot, as a pillar of the Internet community, stands to make a real difference in the fight against smiley noses. It would be great if it could act as a role model in this important struggle.

Everyone: please run your messages through the following perl script to remove excess noses:

#!/usr/bin/perl -w
$_ = @ARGV ? shift @ARGV : ;
chomp;
s/([:;8B?|\%])[-o^]([\)\(|PB9oO\@0{Xx\*D&])/$1$2/g ; BR> print;
print "\n";

Note this is a beta version. It only handles one-line messages, and only "right-handed" smileys. Improvements are forthcoming, and patches are welcome.

Re:smiley noses

[tps12]

Sorry, that first line should say

$_ = @ARGV ? shift @ARGV : <STDIN>;

And the "BR>" should just be a linebreak.

Re:smiley noses

[tps12]

Yes, non-standard smileys are definitely an area for improvement. I know people who are very liberal in their definition of smileys, e.g., ?-> . Now, I can see a face there with a little effort, but I can also imagine a situation where that is not supposed to be a smiley at all. Like in a C++ forum.

Current plans for development are to test the contents of some of the more popular and respected smiley dictionaries for compliance.

Obviously, there are always going to be people who figure out a way to get around any denosing algorithms. But even a 95% success rate on real-world data will have an important and measurable impact on Internet traffic.

Easier solutions.

[scott1853]

If it takes one person 1 year to catch 40 frogs, and the governments solution is a chemical spray, has nobody thought of just using a lawnmower or heavy duty roller?

Re:A Potentially Lucrative Proposition� :-)

[mekkab]

Given that the coqui are the size of a silver dollar and only croak at night, AND given Hawaii's position on the earth (very little "Dusk" time) I'm sure they're hard as HECK to catch!

AS also outlined in the article, one guy caught 40 in a year... can you live off 3 grand?!

Thankfully the island I'm going to in two weeks (Kaua'i) is not infested.

Re:Forget the frogs!

[Rhinobird]

I have visions in my head about thousands of geeks recreating "the night of the living dead"..."caffieeeenee"groan'CAFFIEEEEEEEENNNNEEEEE "caffiene.....

Re:Cats might eat "poisonous" frogs

[Elbereth]

Cats don't have such great vision, really. In general, they have trouble focusing on something unless it's moving. Stationary frogs would present something of a problem, though certainly not a showstopper. My girlfriend's cats will go to any length in order to get some Pounce.

Being a /.-er from PR ...

[flk]

So I sit here in front of my PC, catching my daily dose of /. when I come across this interesting post.

Considering the fact that I am not an Hawaiian ecologist, I do not understand the dangers of the coquí's presence in Hawaii. Here, on its native island, it is harmless and it had been rumored that it couldn't survive anywhere else outside of PR. To think that it has survived in Hawaii must be exciting news for Puerto Rican ecologists ... but as the saying goes: one man's trash is another man's treasure ... of course, this case, it is the other way around.

Yes, the coquís are cute and tiny and chirp like it's nobody's business. Their half female-attracting, half male-warning calls are not annoying. Raining season coming in, the night is filled with "co-QUI co-QUI" -- it really does make for a pleasant natural soundtrack.

These amphibians don't belong

[mekkab]

ACtually, its not tourists- it simply through transported vegetable matter (potted plants, etc).

Since these frogs don't have a tadpole stage (they grow from eggs laid in/on said plants) they are much easier to carry.

Since they don't belong there are no natural predators, so their population grows unabated, and they compete with birds for food resources.

These croakers have gotta go!

And have you heard the sound sample? (go to hawaii star bulletin website) EEEESH!

Thank god they haven't taken over kaua'i! (two weeks baby...)

Re:A Potentially Lucrative Proposition� :-)

[FFFish]

Hard to catch? Not when they're dead... as in "dead or alive."

Me, I'd be out there with a pressurized pesticide sprayer loaded up with Starbucks' finest!

Trained, Certified Pest Applicators...

[GNUCyberKat]

Yeah right.

"One dose for da froggies...one for me...weeeee! One dose for da froggies..."

Spiders and Caffeine

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a spider's web. This is a spider's web on caffeine.

(pic)

(Trust me, the link is relevant.)

Any questions?

Caffeine is a drug that seems to have a stronger impact on small animals.

Questionable Accuracy

[gasp]

I live on Maui, and my experience here goes back to the early 1970's.

According to this story, "There are no naturally occurring reptiles or terrestrial amphibians, no snakes, iguanas, toads or salamanders in Hawaii. Until the coqui arrived, it was a frog-free world."

Umm. No. It says the Coqui arrived around 1990. I wouldn't know about that. Nobody I know here has heard of these frogs. Perhaps the 40+ infestations claimed on Maui are simply places I don't go. HOWEVER...

No other reptiles? No amphibians, toad or frogs before 1990? Totally false. For one thing, these islands are famous for having Geckos. We've got hundreds of them right in our yard. There's more than one within 20 feet of me right now. And we have other salamander-like lizards here than geckos. I'm not a biologist. And I suppose the frogs or toads I played with as a kid 30 years ago weren't here either back then.

I don't know when or how frogs, toads, geckos, salamanders and such got here, but it was long before 1990. I'm sure there is some basis for truth in this story, but I've managed to escape hearing even one of these tens of thousands of 90-decibel frogs on Maui. That doesn't mean they aren't here, just that the story sure doesn't reflect any common knowledge here as far as I can tell after discussing this story with my friends.

The sad thing is...

[MikeyNg]

No one here really seems to care about the invasion of the frogs. Hawaii is a lovely environment and is home to more than 10,000 species of plant and animal life found nowhere else in the world. It is blessed with having virtually every major ecological zone (the only one missing is permafrost-tundra, like think Antarctica) and was virtually isolated from everywhere else in the world, as the islands are at least two thousand miles away from any other large land mass.

That is, until we started to really live there, and now invasive species threaten many of the plants and wildlife that are unique to Hawaii.

Obligatory linkage for the karma-whoring:

Nature Conservancy

Google directory

Carnivorous Caterpillars!

There's a great deal to know and understand about the endangered species in Hawaii and the invasive species that threaten them. We have no snakes, or many other reptiles, for that matter. There are no scorpions, no tarantulas, none of that really vile stuff you find in other rainforests.

Re:patch

[tps12]

Thank you, this will go into CVS.

Re:A Potentially Lucrative Proposition� :-)

[TheLink]

I don't understand why that guy only caught 40 in a year.

I'll just train a few dogs, and voila one acre cleared. Believe me, if you're a frog or rat or whatever, getting away from a well trained dog is very difficult. Them dogs will just do it for fun.

I won't even have to cheat and breed more frogs like some crooks ;).

Cheerio,
Link.

Re:The real solution is easy...

[GungaDan]

Setting yourself up for the Darwin. Frog baseball requires a "chaser" to make the frog jump to within the strike box. The position of "chaser" is incredibly dangerous given the bat swinging just inches away (hopefully). Frog golf is a much better option, IMO.

Let me get this straight...

[gosand]

Today, three tons of powered caffeine sits in a warehouse on the Big Island, as the Hawaiians contemplate their next move.

The programmer's mecca.

3 tons of powdered caffeine, sitting in a warehouse? Why do I get the distinct feeling that I am going to be seeing ThinkGeek ads for this stuff?