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System Administrators - College or Career?
Chicks_Hate_Me asks: "I'm a Senior in High School right now and I'm graduating soon (hopefully!) and I was wondering what the hell I should do? My teachers are all telling me I should go to college, but they don't know much about computers so they automatically assume that I wan't to be a programmer or an engineer. I want to be neither, in fact, I want to become a System Administrator. Is college really the best option? Or should I concentrate on getting certification, experience, and taking a few junior college classes on the side? I've already gotten a few job consultancy offers in the area. What has the experience been for any of you out in the tech industry? For you that went to college, did it truly help? And for you that didn't go to college, has it been harder for you to find a job? Also, if you believe that I should go to college, what should I major in? But if you think I shouldn't, what certifications would hold valuable in the future, and what kind of job positions should I take now?" The never ending question. College is a valuable experience for most, but it's also expensive and time consuming. Might that time be better spent in the job market now rather than later (current conditions notwithstanding)?
College, and certs will get you in the door. So will a resume. Learn your skills. Since you are so young, you could probably undercut those who are more qualified. Know your stuff, and try for Junior-admin positions. Get a cert or two, so they will actually call you back, but concentrate on knowing your craft. If you are willing to move, do nation-wide searches for a job. Some areas have too many techs, but other areas are starving for them.
If you have the opportunity to go to college, take it. At this point in your life, you do not *really* know what you want to do. College will expose you to many possible careers. Not only that, but you might acquire additional skills that will provide you with a backup plan when you burn out on sysadmin'ing...
* Move to a cheap college state like Arizona (in-state is $1000/semester, you can qualify for in-state tuition after living there a year)
* Work and play for a year while you get instate.
* Enjoy college. Those are good years and you'll work the rest of your natural born life (save the low-probability cash-out option; see "unemployed", "options", "mortgage")
* College degrees are often important. Not always, and it doesn't always matter what they are. Sysadmining in college is a pretty good gig.
Theres no doubt that just having a four year degree on your resume increases your chances to get a good job. Experience will only get you so far in the job market. The Higher the salary range, the more and more they are going to expect a degree. Plus it Shows u have enuff dedication to get threw college to get one.
Most system administrators do not know enough to be truly useful. Not coincidentally, many have not had formal training in Computer "Science" or Engineering. Go to college. Learn about how things really work, not the regurgitated pablum that is spread by corporate sponsored certifications.
Since it looks like you aren't planning on going to a university this fall, it wouldn't hurt to get a certification or two in the upcoming year. But definitely go to university. To go immediately into the work world out of high school seems like a complete waste of youth to me. There are many more entertaining ways to waste those precious years between 18 and 24 than slaving long hours as a sysadmin.
A well-crafted lie appears unquestionable - Dama Mahaleo
I'm in college now. You are confused a little as I was. In Computer Science (at most universities), you have what's called a 'Software track' or 'Systems track'. In the Software track, programming and software development is more emphasized. In the Systems track, system administration is more emphasized. You should definately go to college, becuase as a sysadmin you will have opportunities to advance. Without a college education, you won't have as good of a chance to advance. College will also develope you socially and in other subjects such as political science, etc. College in today's competitive society is a must, especially with foreign competition becoming more feirce.
... Without a degree. Lots of times on interviews, people ask "Do you have a degree?" To some people it matters, to others it doesn't. Generally schools like to see that you have a degree, for various reasons. Once I asked "If I did, would it even make a difference?" The person who was interviewing me said 'Probably not'.
... Sometimes i wonder if it would help, as right now I'm out of a job, and starting to get desperate .. ;). But I have one thing a person who spent 4 years in college won't have over me, and thats 5 years experience as a System Administrator. Who would you rather have in charge of your systems, someone who has been doing this for a while now, or someone who's only read about it?
....
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My parents also always push to get a degree
Anyway, congrats on wanting to be an SA, its a good career choice I think, as you get exposed to a lot, and it can lead to other things, programming, DBA, network guy etc etc
Over all though, college looks like its a lot of fun, if a lot of work. If your parents will pay for it, I say go for it! Maybe you'll get to go to a few good parties
Choose no life. Choose System Administration.
I'd strongly suggest college, for two reasons.
Firstly, whether it's fair or not, a lot of places simply won't look at your resume for any technical position unless you have a post-secondary degree of some kind. If you have many years of experience (3 minimum), you may be able to get by on past work alone, but even then you'll be less favoured for raises and promotions because of the impression that you're less "skilled".
Secondly, going through the computer stream, the business stream, or both, in college, will give you extra perspective on where the demands of management and the coders are coming from, and how to balance their requests. You'll be able to do a better job (not all of the job is technical).
Thirdly, it gives you flexibility and mobility in your job. You're qualified for being more than just a sysadmin, so you can take other positions if there are no sysadmin jobs available or if your interests change over time. Choice is usually a good idea.
In summary, I think that college would be very valuable for you at your current career stage.
Try and see the big picture. How do you know you want to be a Systems Administrator? And will you want to be one in five years?
Go and get your computer science degree. Plus you will never forget those four or five years. You'll make new friends.
Finally, if you can prolong your arrival into the real world, by all means do it!
These days, I can pretty much guarantee you that a degree of any kind will get your resume looked at much faster than those without degrees listed.
In the whole dot-bomb craze, a lot of people dropped out of high school and college, and went to work for obscene amounts of money. Now, many companies have realized that it take more than a working knowledge of whatever field is popular - it doesn't matter if you're the world's greatest genius in a particular field if you can't do the *other* parts of the job, like interacting with customers, making clear notes about what you've done for the runbook, and generally communicating with your co-workers.
I got my degree on the ten-year plan. It's not in a computer-related field, but having it means that more doors are open to me.
Specialization is for insects. - R.A.H.
You think you want to be a sysadmin. That's because you're young and stupid. (Sorry, dude, but every high school senior is young and stupid.) You don't yet know how demoralizing it is to work as a sysadmin. The pay gets a lot less attractive as soon as you have a family. You get very little respect, very little appreciation, in order to do a good job as a sysadmin you have to give solemn orders to people above you in the org chart of your work place, which makes you a prime target at every round of layoffs. The hardware and software both such and drive you to exasperation.
The hours suck rocks through a garden hose. Trust me on this, there is nothing more demoralizing than rushing to work to fix an outage at 3 AM because your ISPs clients are getting mad at having to wait for their pron. The hours suck more when you're on call and you realize your wife is better looking and your kids far cuter than any of your cow orkers or clients, and that your wage rate cannot justify a single additional hour away from them.
So, forget about sysadminning, at least for now. Go to college. Shop around for areas of inquiry that might interest you, or might not interest you yet. Join the army. I'm not kidding. The army beats sysadminning hands down. Or try jobs that involve your hands or the open air. But for mercy's sake, don't sysadmin just yet.
- All good admins had good mentors. A good college or university is the place to find them.
- While at college, you can choose a less challenging curriculum and still do some admin work on the side.
- At the end of your college career, you'll already have 2 or 3 years of experience under your belt.
- Stick with Unix- don't waste time with NT or Win2K. Then windows admin market has two dubious issues: A. The market is saturated, making them a $28k/year commodity; and B. It's much harder to distinguish yourself in the industry in a saturated market.
- Beer, women, and community. Those reasons are enough to make me want to go back almost every day
:) .
I can seriously vouch for #'s 1, 2, and 5. By the time I left school, I had 2 years of sysadmin under my belt, and excellent skills because of a good mentor. I was even able to take my time and choose between a couple gigs > $70k.Good luck!
Don't sweat the petty things. But do pet the sweaty things.
Or you could spend it trying to live a beer commercial fantasy and wonder why you wasted 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars. Your choice.
Let me start by saying that I had an overwhelmingly positive college experience. I knew I was a computer geek before I went, and I figured I'd major in CS and become a programmer.
I went to a small liberal arts college with a great CS program. But also important was the fact that there was a student-run web group that had just gotten off the ground (this was 1996, mind you). It was a student club -- none of us were paid for the work that we did, but we maintained several Linux machines for students to serve web pages from (at this time, the college did not provide web space for students, and most students could not set up their own web servers.
I learned a heck of a lot from that club, both from trying things out on my own, but also from being around other people who knew more/different things than I did. I have since applied that knowledge in sysadmin and programming jobs.
All this would seem to indicate that you don't really need classes to get good at being a sysadmin. However, I found classes helpful (and relevant). You'll need to be a good programmer to be a good sysadmin (at least on Unix, anyway -- can't speak to Windows since I don't use it). More importantly, many employers want to see a college degree. It's not 1999 anymore, and you can't just wander into a startup and demand a job because you know a little bash scripting
College is practically a prerequisite for most high-paying jobs now, and even when the economy wasn't soft college was considered important by many employers (at least, all the ones I interviewed with).
So, my feeling is that college is both important to employers, and also a great opportunity to grow and learn from other people like yourself. Yes, it costs money (sometimes a lot of money), but the experience is well worth it. Plus, if you can find a more sysadmin-related group at your school (as I did), the experience can be much more valuable than any certification course you can take. Even if there's no ad-hoc group, you could always look for employment in the college itself (running a public lab, for instance), which both looks good on the resume and gives you valuable experience.
A college degree (no matter in what area) is almost a pre-requisite for the 'good' jobs. Think of it this way, if you are an Employer, and you are hiring for a Systems Admin Position, you have 2 candidates who you need to pick from with equal on the job experience, would you take someone with a college degree over someone without one? Don't get shut out of a possible job just because you don't have a degree.
College also has several other added benefits over typical 'job experience'. College not only teaches you job skills, it teaches you to be resourceful in finding answers you don't automatically know. Programming courses in college have proven invaluable to me as a system admin even though I don't do much programming. Understanding how programming languages work and the data structures involved are not a typical job requirement but end up helping you alot in the long run. One of the best classes I ever took was "Basic Compiler Design" which has absolutely no relevance to any job I ever held, however, it did teach me a commanding knowledge of C++ and advanced data structures. If anything, college teaches you how to research problems and solve them. The college I went to make a specific point in the compsci department of not teaching specific software packages/solutions. Their goal was to teach the student how to learn those specific skills on their own when needed. In hindsight I must say that at the time it made little sense, but now I realize it makes all the sense in the world as those skills come into play almost daily.
And unless you are already married or an introverted supernerd, why in hell would you pass up FOUR YEARS of endless dating/mating possibilities? GO TO COLLEGE JUST FOR THE GIRLS, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A MORE VARIED POTENTIAL DATING POOL IN YOUR LIFE (unless yer Hugh Hefner).
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
On the plus side,
work often pays for tuition
you have a lot of experience when the time comes to move into that "real" job.
might even find that real job while going to school (woot!)
Downside?
It will take an extra 2-3 years to get your degree
you may become cold and jaded as the real world exposes you to the way things work in business rather than class.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
This is long winded, but I went through what you are asking about and I fucked it all up. Pay attention.
A few years ago I dropped out of college after my second year and started working as a full-time sysadmin. During that time I have had multiple jobs, moving from working in the financial industry, to a dotcom (Which crashed and burned.) to government contracting. Each job change has resulted in a huge raise, and my salary (With no degrees or certifications.) has risen to over $65,000 USD with incredible benefits, not bad for a 23 year old college drop out with no degrees or certifications. I have my own car, my own apartment, little debt, and life is generally pretty good. But...
Not a day goes by that I don't regret not staying in school. Having a degree opens doors I never dreamed of, and people who do go through school come out knowing things that you will probably never learn on the job. Every time I turn around I think about all the useful skills I could have picked up by staying in school, especially when it comes to serious programming and computer internals. On top of that, there are always plenty of people who will not take me seriously until I get myself through night school an earn the degree.
I can understand why you might not want to go to college to be a sysadmin; most computer programs don't teach what it takes to do a sysadmin's job. But as a sysadmin who passed on college, you will find yourself trapped in far more limits than the limited choices you may have when it comes to learning to manage a network at school.
So stay in school. Just get yourself through a four-year computer science degree, and spend your time worrying about programming, network and computer internals, and other such stuff. Build good relationships with like minded folks at school and online, because helpful friends, especially on EFNet or mailing lists, will save your ass at work more than any vendor support or book. Plan ahead to find yourself good summer internships at tech related companies, even if you have to just volunteer. Try to get a government internship with a Top Secret clearance and you will be guaranteed a great job as soon as you get out of school.
When it comes to school, it sucks, but it will be worth it. Trust me.
Consider the following:
- You won't want to be a sysadmin forever, so go to college and explore the possibilities. Once you're in a career, it's really difficult to change tracks. You may find later on that you are bored with being a sysadmin, and you want to try out something else. But most jobs don't grant you the luxury of switching gears.
- Having a "theoretical" background from a college education is beneficial even for a sysadmin. It gives you a framework for acquiring knowledge and understanding. Just knowing how to run a Solaris box or make an ethernet cable isn't enough. You need the higher-level knowledge to put it all in perspective (to think outside the box, as another poster put it).
- Certifications are worthless in my book. They get dated rather quickly, so you have to keep getting re-certified every year, and it winds-up being a rat-race. Besides, it's been my experience that if a guy has a certification, it's no indication of what he really knows or what he can really do. It's only an indication of how well he can regurgitate something on a standardized test. Kind of like a handful of the guys I've interviewed recently.
- College is fun.
You didn't say if you've been accepted to college or even applied, so the question may be moot. However, even if you can go, too many kids rush out of high school and into college without knowing what they are going to do when they get there. In your case I certainly think, if you can find work in the computer field, that a year spent doing that would be a positive step before and if you decide to go to college.
"Get a couple of Cisco certifications, get a network certification of some sort, and get some experience at any pay. Two years before your friends are done school you'll be changing to your second IT job...."
;)
...and always be working for someone else. Not to mention two years later your college friends will end up being your boss.
You can get those certs while in school you know.
College gets you friends, contacts, laid, and is a blast. You learn things other than how to set up a routing table. I learned to speak German there. Do I need this - no - but I am glad I learned it!
So what if you are behind the curve for 2 or three years - after that you race far ahead!
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Go to college to learn about lititure, history, science, politics, AND computers. Going to college means that for several years you will be within a five minute walk of someone who can answer almost any question you have. You will be surronded by people who are experts in fields you did not even know existed! All this in addition to getting an education in computers is why you should go to college. Not just to get a job.
I have a BA in History(!) and my A+ and Server+, with my MCSA in the works, and plans for Network+, Linux+ and RHCE down the road. Any degree on your resume will usually give you a notch or you above candidates without, more reliably than a certification. A degree says that not only do you know your stuff, but you can focus on a project for an extended period and have a certain level of competency at basic work-type skills, i.e. the English language, something many people lack, or business, or critical thinking. Certifications give a picture of you as an IT professional, but a degree says something about your life skills and what type of an employee you can become.
You are not the customer.
If he actually thinks hes going to make a career thats going to last more than 10 years as a system admin, hes going to be wrong, VERY wrong.
Eventually servers will maintain themselves, lets not forget the system admin market is not in demand and hes not going to get paid a decent wage for much longer.
What he should do is go to college, get a Good 4 year degree, maybe work as a system admin via intership, Then when he graduates from college he can continue on as a Sys Admin.
He needs to get his degree so he can adapt to the times, when the time comes, Hes going to have to get a new job, wheres he going to go 11 years from now? or 20? Does he really want to go to college at age 30? By then he'll be far behind.
Look, you have to build your nest egg as soon as possible, that is
A. If you want to retire ever.
B. If you want to have kids.
C. If you want a house, car, or anything.
He needs a degree to have a stable career, he can get a job with just a diploma, they'll hire him as a sys admin, it will be his job, but when they dont need him anymore, hes gone, jobless.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Let's suppose you don't go to college, and you spend all your time getting certifications and real-world experience to be a System Administrator. Now suppose, a year into your first 'real' job, you realize that you hate it and want to do somthing else. Unless you want to mow lawns, tele-market, or flip burgers, you are SCREWED!
With a college degreee you have a MUCH better chance getting a job "outside" your field of specialty.
For Example: When I left High School, I thought I wanted to be a chemist, so I went to college and got a BS in Chemistry. I got a cool job as an inorganic chemist right out of college making so-so money. It turned out that STUDYING chemistry was a LOT more fun than doing it every day, so while I was working in the lab, I taught myself VB. I liked VB so much more than chemistry that I quit my job (5 years ago) , and now make 75K a year +benefits as a VB programmer. Had I not gone to college, no employer would have hired me as a programmer. If I had gone to a "vo-tek" school for chemistry, my only option would be to stick to chemistry, and I would be stuck doing a job that I hated.
I've had a number of different jobs in the tech arena now, from systems administration to Web development to writing and editing, as well as doing other things on a freelance basis, like consulting and even illustration. And no, I didn't go to school -- which isn't to say that anybody else shouldn't go.
Whether you go or not, though, my advice is to diversify your skillset as much as possible. And if you want to concentrate on some "top" skills that will get you farthest ahead, then forget about sysadmin and forget about programming. Bone up on your communication skills. Take English classes, take public speaking, take debate. Learn to communicate effectively. On top of that, read the newspaper, listen to NPR, and learn how the world works outside the server room. It'll all help keep you afloat a lot more than knowing Unix ever will, cuz 19-year old Unix gurus are a dime a dozen.
Breakfast served all day!
You cant "learn" a talent though.
Your talent may be your technical skills and not your people skills.
What you have to do, is focus just enough on the people skills to get hired and in the door, then use your technical skills to stay in once you get in.
Working as a team, thats something you can learn playing online RPGs and sports.
Charisma, Humor, and things like that, it cant be learned, either you are goodat it or you arent.
So the goal is to level it out, put on a good act, make yourself seem like you are good with people, wear a nice suit and tie to your interviews, be polite, and when you get the job, continue to be polite, dress nice, and respect everyone.
Do not argue with anyone whos been there longer than you (its a death wish) and just put in effort to get along with them all on a business level.
Its no diffrent than school, you cant avoid people, you can learn to tolerate them and deal with them in a professional manner so that people dont have a problem with you and use your superior techical skills to make them respect you and want to have you around.
Thats what I basically did, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, depending on which corporation you work for, as some corporations almost demand you go to social events, others are very laid back and just want you to do your work and get along with everyone.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
This is advice from someone who didn't take it himself. I went to college, but didn't finish. It never stood in my way because I went into software development and I had already been doing it for years before I went into the workforce full-time.
That said, I think a college education can be invaluable, if you're into it. If you're not, don't go and waste your parents' or your own money. If you go to college, go because you want the education, and I'm not just talking about an education in computers. If that's all you really want, then just get your certifications and go into the workforce.
College isn't much of a preparation for a particular job, so much as a general education, which I think everyone needs. One of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain is, "Never let your schooling interefere with your education." My personal translation that I live by, is "Don't limit your education to your schooling." Education is a lifelong process that shouldn't end until you die.
I was always a horrible student in English, but I discovered in the "real" world, being literate, in speaking and in writing is very important. While it may be wrong, many people, myself included, judge a person's intelligence, to a large degree, by their literacy. If people write poorly, I tend to think less of their intelligence. Is that fair? Maybe not, but you'll find it's quite common.
Education in other subjects is just as important, for a variety of reasons, but in general, to be an interesting and interested member of the human race. There's a lot more to life than your job, and an education, formal or otherwise, adds a lot of dimensions to your life.
But that's just my degree-less opinion.
1.) What is the Opportunity Cost/Monitary Cost of a College Degree?
:)). so, naturally I felt like I could easly enter the job market. But something just erked me about not having some sort of higher education to give myself the chance for advancement in case I wanted to change fields later in life.
Maybe a couple of years of average wages - assuming you attend a 2 year tech school (few will pay the big bucks to a kid with a high school degree, regardless of knowledge or experience). Plus, the cost of school itself.
2.) Benefits of a degree
- You have something to put in the "Education" are of your resume other than a high school degree. It may sound trival & stupid...but it's true.
- The chance to work with top of the line technology (depending on the school) and to be around others who are equally interested in your field (this is where you learn the most)
- You increase your market value
I think the basic question that you have to ask yourself is: "Do I want to be an SA for the rest of my career?".
I was in the same boat coming out of high school (graduated in 1996). I had way more experence in the "computing area" than many adults I knew. In fact in 93-94, I was the only one in my high school with internet access (1200 baud
I'm graduating next week with a Masters Degree in e-Business, and I really feel that I made the right choice. Don't trap yourself into a career by passing up a college degree, even a 2 year school would be sufficient. It will only enhance your marketability when applying for jobs.
1. Why do you think that I would not go on to get a degree later on? Or that I've even started?
2. Why does one need to advance? Perhaps I like being a sysadmin, perhaps I don't want to do anything else, perhaps $65k/year is more then enough for me and my family?
I never understood this, I know people that do shit work, digging holes, and they're the happiest people in the world, they can more then care for their needs and the needs of their families, yet people like you look down on them. Perhaps it's because you've spent all this time, energy, and money so you can get all this extra income, only to find out that you're not happy, and that your life, while filled with all the latest gee-whiz stuff, sucks..
Free Mac Mini
I'll start off by admitting that I am infact a college grad. However, I'm not working in my field, physics. I've been a professional programmer ever since I graduated. Here's the rub: I have zero formal education in the field. I built my skills up on the side during college and started getting progressively more responsible jobs afterwards. My physics education has been useful indirectly(analytical skills, math knowledge etc), but has only rarely been directly applied. Do I regret wasting four years on an education that hasn't helped me professionally? Heck no! I loved physics. I'm just not really good enough to make it as a scientist. I went for it and didn't make the cut. No regrets whatsoever for trying. Just a few for not making it.
So what does this mean for your plans? College is not a trade school, and frankly, thats what much of the computer field amounts to, a trade or vocation. I'd say you're better off getting some certs and some junior college creds if you want to be a sys admin. Meanwhile if you go to college, study something you love for its own sake. Looking at what college costs now as opposed to when I went, I'd really have to ask myself whether the skills I would acquire would be worth it. However, the cautionary note here is that a lot employers in the IT field want a bachelors. Some state "or equivalent experience", but most want that BA or BS.
No computer lab worth its name would accede to such demands. In fact, such demands should convince them entirely that you're more interested in flashy-looking paperwork than actual learning, and hence are not a good candidate.
Accepting often-meaningless industry certs does not demonstrate that a department is interested in real-world skills, it demonstrates that the department is desperate for cash and trying to gain corporate sponsorship. Real skills taught by real colleges last far longer than any industry cert. Do you really think a month of studying Swing or MFC is worth as much as a month learning what data structures are all about?
That's why my degree will last for life, but the MCPs who took Visual C++ 6 several years ago are now "uncertified" again, in spite of the fact that the tool hasn't actually changed a bit since then and is still in mainstream use. The vast majority of industry certifications are money-spinning, code-monkey-developing cash cows, and nothing more. (Incidentally, having recently been in the job market myself, this seems to be how they are perceived by employers looking to fill good positions. Compare and contrast with proper degrees, please.)
And speaking of starting salaries, if you think some pro cert is going to get you a higher salary than a degree at the start of your career, you're gravely mistaken. Many places will file you in the circular cabinet without a second thought if you aren't degree-qualified, however many TLAs, ETLAs and so on you write on your resume. I don't think it's going to be hard to beat a starting salary of $5/hour at McD's.
For whom? Not any employers, programmers or sysadmins I know, at any level of experience, that's for sure.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
College is not needed for most computer/IT/internet careers ... at least not to be able to do them. I've seen too many "idiots with degrees" to ever believe that college makes much of a difference. And this applies whether the career is programming or system administration or network administration.
What college will do for you is:
I may be hiring by the end of the year in a business I'm still trying to get launched. I can tell you this. I'd much rather hire someone coming out of the military than someone coming out of college. Good people can learn new technology. Bad people are stuck in what they managed to learn some of. Learning takes discipline, and you get far more of that in the military than in college. Not everyone coming out would be worth hiring, but even fewer coming out of college will be ... and fewer still coming out of high school. I'll be looking more for solidity in understanding basic logic and strategy, then in understanding any particular system. I'd rather hire a smart person with an MCSE (which is otherwise worthless) than a dumb person with an RHCE for doing Linux administration.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
1) College is the most fun four years of your life. Five if you stretch it. :) If you miss them you will regret it for the rest of your life. You won't have anywhere near the same experience if you go back when you're 30; you'll just be studying (which is what it sounds like you think all of college is. Wrong!)
2) Maybe 10% of what I learned in college related to my major (CS) (and unlike many people, I majored in what I eventually ended up working in.) Maybe 30% total was related to classes I took. That doesn't mean the other 70% wasn't useful to learn; in fact I think it was that other 70% that most made the time worthwhile. Some of it might relate to hobbies you take up and get a lot of fun from. Some of it will be interpersonal relationships (read that how you like. :) Sex, but more than that too. Friends who will last you your whole life. Teachers who will open your eyes to new things, academic and otherwise. More.) Some of it will just be fun and cool stuff you'll never forget.
3) Maybe 10% of what I knew about my major when I graduated, I learned in classes. The rest of the stuff I got because I had four years to essentially play with whatever interested me, with the college's blessing and equipment and assistance (except for the one time when I almost got expelled. :) )
But at the same time don't discount that classroom 10%. Many of the things I learned from classes were things I would not ever have learned on my own, for lack of time or interest or simply not having a reason to go there. Chip architecture and why some types of operations work better than others. Compiler design. Assembly language. Real fundamentals that make the bits and pieces you learn elsewhere fit into a cohesive framework and become workable knowledge. In addition to giving you a better understanding of things you know now, you'll have a more solid base for learning things in the future.
4) Maybe you will find that you like something even better than being a sysadmin. Don't scoff, it happens all the time. Acting. Teaching. Digging up fossils. Blowing up the chem lab. Whatever. Maybe even programming. :) You won't ever be exposed to most of these things if you go straight into the workforce.
5) If you really feel the need to work, you can work while you're in college. Best of all possible worlds. Not only are you getting the experience, you're having the fun, and if you run into a problem at work you have a ton of resources at hand you can use to learn about the problem and how it should be fixed. You can get a job with a company and make (a little) money or you can work at a job in the college and get broader experience. Or both, if you're a masochist.
6) Did I mention that college was fun?
People here who are saying "You don't need college; look at me, I didn't," don't know what they are missing. Sure they have a job. Whoopee. If a job is all you want out of life, fine. But IMNSHO college is an opportunity for a lot more than a better job.
Don't screw yourself. Go to college.
Back in the late 70's, after I had graduated from highschool, I needed to get some work to try to pay my way through college. I ended up with a job working in the operations group at a local datacenter. At the same time I was taking a couple of programming classes at the local community college. Through a series of "being at the right place at the right time", and applying myself, I ended up in the systems programming (systems support) department. Within a year I was responsible for the full maintenance of the operating system (large mainframes).
So... there I was, 19 years old, working full salary for a national retail company, with the responsibilty of ensuring that their mainframe systems ran. The support department had about 12 people in it, divided into 4 groups -- across operating system and product lines, and I was one of the lead programmers.
Today, I'm still doing systems support. I've switched jobs twice. First time was because of a chance to move to a part of the country that I had always wanted to live in. I was hired as a senior level software developer (I had picked up quite abit of programming skills). However, after 5 years, the company did a major downsizing and the entire department that I was in was let go. I was able to pick up a new job fairly quickly doing system support work again (which I really prefer).
However... now that I have said all of that...
I never did get to college for a degree. Most of the people that I currently work with do have a degree (or two). The only problem that I've had in terms of work was getting my foot in the door. My resume is quite impressive (large varity of skills, lots of leadership stuff, etc.). When I was layed off I had quite abit of trouble landing interviews. I had one company call me saying that I had all the skills they needed, but they had a company policy to only hire people with degrees. The job that I have now, was because I had some contacts inside that knew my work and knew what I could do.
So for me at least, the lack of degree hasn't been much of a hinderance in terms of the skills I need to *DO* the job, however I suspect that if I need to hit the streets again, there might be some problems getting my foot in the door at some places without a slip of paper that says I spent 4 years getting that slip of paper. Yes... I've kept up to date with current trends (Linux, OSS, web programming, Java, Perl, etc.).
So where is all of this leading to....
Well... here is my suggestion...
Quick answer... go to college.
Longer answer...
If you are truely a self learner -- and I mean outside of your central interests -- how is your knowlege of early European history and how some of that relates to what is happening today in the middle east? Have you read a novel that was published before 1900? Do you understand what exactly the Greeks contributed to the world in terms of science and mathematics, and how it is different from China?
If so then skip college -- as long as you can continue self learning in areas outside of work then you will be fine. Build up a good resume of skills, get to know and work *WITH* people at work, then you shouldn't have a problem.
If however you have only focused on being a sys admin and never really expanded your focus of interest to other areas, go get a degree. Go to a liberal arts college and take a variety of classes in areas outside of computers. The goal is to become a person with a rounded out view.
It's not so much the specific technical skills that are being looked for. It is: can you complete a major task on your own? Can you communicate with others? And are you an interesting person to be around for 8 hours a day?
Answer:The Geeks from MIT with their degrees.
Why? Because these geeks will eventually have the experience, the degree, and the status.
IF you dont have a degree, Have fun competiting with the third world programmers and technicians in China, India, Pakistan, etc.
IF you didnt read the last slashdot article, Americans are being fired so these cheaper equally qualified workers from outside the country can take their job.
I recieved posts from people who said "Well to compete you have to provide better value"
The only way to provide better value is to have a better education. People in Pakistan may have more experience, more talent, and more skill but you still have to survive! You wont always be the smartest and best, you have to survive anyway, and when you compete with people who may be BETTER than you, you have to work HARDER than them to win, meaning getting your degree.
Lets see what slashdot thinks.
Quote from rmjiv rmjiv's profile
How about providing a better value? There will always be costs associated with manufacturing products at distance from use. This is as true of software as it is of cars. For cars, the extra costs is in the delivery. For software, it's in the communication of requirements (and the changing of requirements, etc.). If value = (quality / cost) then you don't necessarily need a lower cost to provide equal or greater value. I suggest reading Yourden's Rise and Resurrection of the American Programmer. It's an interesting read, and might even cheer you up.
BTW, if you can't provide a better value, why do you believe you deserve a job as a programmer?
She came sliding down the alleyway like butter dripping off of a hot biscuit."
Quote from Whitehawke WhiteHawke's Profile
Actually, I'm not worried about this for a lot of reasons:
1) As a skilled and reasonably experienced (7 years) developer, I'm better than most (though certainly not all) of the developers from the Third World.
2) I can actually interview on-site. Making a face-to-face impression is a HUGE advantage.
3) Companies don't even like to let people telecommute if they have a choice; they like to have people in-house, under their eye.
--Dave Storrs
These are some of the opinions of people at Slashdot, it seems they all see my point. Get a degree, or be replaced by Muhammed from Pakistan, or Wong Fei Lee from China.
You dont have a choice. Its survival of the most educated not the most talented.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I started college with a dual-major in physics and German. After a year I changed from physics to math. Soon after I wanted to change from math to CS, but wanted to graduate within 4 years so I just got a CS minor (stuck with the German though, it was easy). I programmed for a year, quit because I really didn't like it. Now I'm doing helpdesk work, and hate it.
Only about half the people I work with have college degrees, and most of them (myself included) had no idea what they wanted to do while in college. It has taken a few years of "real world" experience to figure it out, and some serious thinking. After taking some classes at the community college and spending several months thinking about what I like, I am preparing to start law school this fall. I am happy with my decision. However, I would have chosen classes differently and focused on different areas if I had been planning for a career in law rather than in {german,math,physics,programming}.
Bottom line is, college is important, but know what you want to do first. Even if you think you know now, take a few years to work (you have job offers!) before you make a commitment in college. Figure out your own path, get certifications as needed, and go to college when you think it is time, not when people tell you to do it.
There is an avenue that would give you on hand experience as well as the opportunity to complete a college education. Man, I hope this doesn't end up sounding like a recruiting pitch.
You can always join the armed forces. There you would get on the job training and tuition assistance which pays 100% of your tuition less books. You get to work with military network control centers and a variety of others tasks that most system admins do. You get a full time paycheck, annual vacation, and the ability to see the world.
The military also teaches followership and eventually leadership traits. Forms the foundations for team building as well. While this is not for everyone, it is an option that could be persued.
In my experience most employers would look at a prior military candidate in a higher regard than most others.
My apologies if this came off as a recruiting pitch, it was not meant to be that at all.
Hi,
I took the path you are considering... work versus continued education... I've done well in Silicon Valley without a degree. I spent 8 years at HP and 7 years at Sun... But...
If I had to do it all over again... I defnitely would have continued with education first, career second... Here is why...
Ultimately I found that as my skills matured, I needed to rely on other skills that I had not developed on my own, but would have had to in school. If I had taken advantage of a good college education in Computer Science with a minor in Speech and Communications, I'd have a solid base of fundamentals, instead of a base that is like swiss cheese... Don't get me wrong, I've done well for myself... but I missed an opportunity to round myself out early on.
Besides developing a strong technical background, ultimately the need to communicate very well, both written and verbally is really key to achieving goals, coupled with the ability to be effective in grey areas of the technical profession.
I've had the opportunity to work with a few people that while going to college also worked supporting the campus computing environments. Also worked with people that have done internships at HP and Sun... This may be something that would work for you.
Another thing to consider... is that while you are early in your career path, getting school out of the way early, leaves room to later have a family... without having to go to school too...
In terms of cost of education... The Jr. Colleges in California are very inexpensive, and colleges like Santa Cruz have great extension classes.
Best of luck!
Kramer
www.qbal.com
These days nearly everyone has a college degree. If you don't--everyone else has a leg up. Believe it or not, a degree is important. You may know just as much without college... but a degree is a form of insurance for the employer. We don't even interview applicants without a degree of some sort.
Dear Chicks Hate Me,
I teach a LAN Administration class at my high school (Bishop Union High, in Bishop, California), and every year I have the brightest, most motivated, and technically proficient kids in the school in my class.
The question often comes up about whether they should begin working and earning money right away, or whether to go off to college.
My advice? I see it this way. Kids have the entire rest of their lives to work. It would be foolish to jump into the work force without experiencing the joy of higher learning, if you have the opportunity. A college education is MORE than learning a trade. It is exposure to new ideas you may not have been exposed to otherwise. It is mingling with peers in a purely academic setting - an opportunity you will find quite rare as an adult in the workforce. Take the time to get the degree, and you'll find you not only have more foot-in-the-door clout, but you just may actually learn something OTHER than your passion (in this case, technology). Life is so much more than you can realize at 18.
So don't waste the opportunity for a few bucks now. You can *always* earn money - there is always a market for talented, enthusiastic people. It'll be there when you're done with college. Hell, it'll be there long after you're dead and gone.
Carpe diem.
Joe Griego
Dir., I.T.
BUHS
Don't Die Wondering