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System Administrators - College or Career?
Chicks_Hate_Me asks: "I'm a Senior in High School right now and I'm graduating soon (hopefully!) and I was wondering what the hell I should do? My teachers are all telling me I should go to college, but they don't know much about computers so they automatically assume that I wan't to be a programmer or an engineer. I want to be neither, in fact, I want to become a System Administrator. Is college really the best option? Or should I concentrate on getting certification, experience, and taking a few junior college classes on the side? I've already gotten a few job consultancy offers in the area. What has the experience been for any of you out in the tech industry? For you that went to college, did it truly help? And for you that didn't go to college, has it been harder for you to find a job? Also, if you believe that I should go to college, what should I major in? But if you think I shouldn't, what certifications would hold valuable in the future, and what kind of job positions should I take now?" The never ending question. College is a valuable experience for most, but it's also expensive and time consuming. Might that time be better spent in the job market now rather than later (current conditions notwithstanding)?
College, and certs will get you in the door. So will a resume. Learn your skills. Since you are so young, you could probably undercut those who are more qualified. Know your stuff, and try for Junior-admin positions. Get a cert or two, so they will actually call you back, but concentrate on knowing your craft. If you are willing to move, do nation-wide searches for a job. Some areas have too many techs, but other areas are starving for them.
If you have the opportunity to go to college, take it. At this point in your life, you do not *really* know what you want to do. College will expose you to many possible careers. Not only that, but you might acquire additional skills that will provide you with a backup plan when you burn out on sysadmin'ing...
Most system administrators do not know enough to be truly useful. Not coincidentally, many have not had formal training in Computer "Science" or Engineering. Go to college. Learn about how things really work, not the regurgitated pablum that is spread by corporate sponsored certifications.
Since it looks like you aren't planning on going to a university this fall, it wouldn't hurt to get a certification or two in the upcoming year. But definitely go to university. To go immediately into the work world out of high school seems like a complete waste of youth to me. There are many more entertaining ways to waste those precious years between 18 and 24 than slaving long hours as a sysadmin.
A well-crafted lie appears unquestionable - Dama Mahaleo
I'm in college now. You are confused a little as I was. In Computer Science (at most universities), you have what's called a 'Software track' or 'Systems track'. In the Software track, programming and software development is more emphasized. In the Systems track, system administration is more emphasized. You should definately go to college, becuase as a sysadmin you will have opportunities to advance. Without a college education, you won't have as good of a chance to advance. College will also develope you socially and in other subjects such as political science, etc. College in today's competitive society is a must, especially with foreign competition becoming more feirce.
I'd strongly suggest college, for two reasons.
Firstly, whether it's fair or not, a lot of places simply won't look at your resume for any technical position unless you have a post-secondary degree of some kind. If you have many years of experience (3 minimum), you may be able to get by on past work alone, but even then you'll be less favoured for raises and promotions because of the impression that you're less "skilled".
Secondly, going through the computer stream, the business stream, or both, in college, will give you extra perspective on where the demands of management and the coders are coming from, and how to balance their requests. You'll be able to do a better job (not all of the job is technical).
Thirdly, it gives you flexibility and mobility in your job. You're qualified for being more than just a sysadmin, so you can take other positions if there are no sysadmin jobs available or if your interests change over time. Choice is usually a good idea.
In summary, I think that college would be very valuable for you at your current career stage.
These days, I can pretty much guarantee you that a degree of any kind will get your resume looked at much faster than those without degrees listed.
In the whole dot-bomb craze, a lot of people dropped out of high school and college, and went to work for obscene amounts of money. Now, many companies have realized that it take more than a working knowledge of whatever field is popular - it doesn't matter if you're the world's greatest genius in a particular field if you can't do the *other* parts of the job, like interacting with customers, making clear notes about what you've done for the runbook, and generally communicating with your co-workers.
I got my degree on the ten-year plan. It's not in a computer-related field, but having it means that more doors are open to me.
Specialization is for insects. - R.A.H.
You think you want to be a sysadmin. That's because you're young and stupid. (Sorry, dude, but every high school senior is young and stupid.) You don't yet know how demoralizing it is to work as a sysadmin. The pay gets a lot less attractive as soon as you have a family. You get very little respect, very little appreciation, in order to do a good job as a sysadmin you have to give solemn orders to people above you in the org chart of your work place, which makes you a prime target at every round of layoffs. The hardware and software both such and drive you to exasperation.
The hours suck rocks through a garden hose. Trust me on this, there is nothing more demoralizing than rushing to work to fix an outage at 3 AM because your ISPs clients are getting mad at having to wait for their pron. The hours suck more when you're on call and you realize your wife is better looking and your kids far cuter than any of your cow orkers or clients, and that your wage rate cannot justify a single additional hour away from them.
So, forget about sysadminning, at least for now. Go to college. Shop around for areas of inquiry that might interest you, or might not interest you yet. Join the army. I'm not kidding. The army beats sysadminning hands down. Or try jobs that involve your hands or the open air. But for mercy's sake, don't sysadmin just yet.
- All good admins had good mentors. A good college or university is the place to find them.
- While at college, you can choose a less challenging curriculum and still do some admin work on the side.
- At the end of your college career, you'll already have 2 or 3 years of experience under your belt.
- Stick with Unix- don't waste time with NT or Win2K. Then windows admin market has two dubious issues: A. The market is saturated, making them a $28k/year commodity; and B. It's much harder to distinguish yourself in the industry in a saturated market.
- Beer, women, and community. Those reasons are enough to make me want to go back almost every day
:) .
I can seriously vouch for #'s 1, 2, and 5. By the time I left school, I had 2 years of sysadmin under my belt, and excellent skills because of a good mentor. I was even able to take my time and choose between a couple gigs > $70k.Good luck!
Don't sweat the petty things. But do pet the sweaty things.
A college degree (no matter in what area) is almost a pre-requisite for the 'good' jobs. Think of it this way, if you are an Employer, and you are hiring for a Systems Admin Position, you have 2 candidates who you need to pick from with equal on the job experience, would you take someone with a college degree over someone without one? Don't get shut out of a possible job just because you don't have a degree.
College also has several other added benefits over typical 'job experience'. College not only teaches you job skills, it teaches you to be resourceful in finding answers you don't automatically know. Programming courses in college have proven invaluable to me as a system admin even though I don't do much programming. Understanding how programming languages work and the data structures involved are not a typical job requirement but end up helping you alot in the long run. One of the best classes I ever took was "Basic Compiler Design" which has absolutely no relevance to any job I ever held, however, it did teach me a commanding knowledge of C++ and advanced data structures. If anything, college teaches you how to research problems and solve them. The college I went to make a specific point in the compsci department of not teaching specific software packages/solutions. Their goal was to teach the student how to learn those specific skills on their own when needed. In hindsight I must say that at the time it made little sense, but now I realize it makes all the sense in the world as those skills come into play almost daily.
And unless you are already married or an introverted supernerd, why in hell would you pass up FOUR YEARS of endless dating/mating possibilities? GO TO COLLEGE JUST FOR THE GIRLS, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A MORE VARIED POTENTIAL DATING POOL IN YOUR LIFE (unless yer Hugh Hefner).
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
On the plus side,
work often pays for tuition
you have a lot of experience when the time comes to move into that "real" job.
might even find that real job while going to school (woot!)
Downside?
It will take an extra 2-3 years to get your degree
you may become cold and jaded as the real world exposes you to the way things work in business rather than class.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
This is long winded, but I went through what you are asking about and I fucked it all up. Pay attention.
A few years ago I dropped out of college after my second year and started working as a full-time sysadmin. During that time I have had multiple jobs, moving from working in the financial industry, to a dotcom (Which crashed and burned.) to government contracting. Each job change has resulted in a huge raise, and my salary (With no degrees or certifications.) has risen to over $65,000 USD with incredible benefits, not bad for a 23 year old college drop out with no degrees or certifications. I have my own car, my own apartment, little debt, and life is generally pretty good. But...
Not a day goes by that I don't regret not staying in school. Having a degree opens doors I never dreamed of, and people who do go through school come out knowing things that you will probably never learn on the job. Every time I turn around I think about all the useful skills I could have picked up by staying in school, especially when it comes to serious programming and computer internals. On top of that, there are always plenty of people who will not take me seriously until I get myself through night school an earn the degree.
I can understand why you might not want to go to college to be a sysadmin; most computer programs don't teach what it takes to do a sysadmin's job. But as a sysadmin who passed on college, you will find yourself trapped in far more limits than the limited choices you may have when it comes to learning to manage a network at school.
So stay in school. Just get yourself through a four-year computer science degree, and spend your time worrying about programming, network and computer internals, and other such stuff. Build good relationships with like minded folks at school and online, because helpful friends, especially on EFNet or mailing lists, will save your ass at work more than any vendor support or book. Plan ahead to find yourself good summer internships at tech related companies, even if you have to just volunteer. Try to get a government internship with a Top Secret clearance and you will be guaranteed a great job as soon as you get out of school.
When it comes to school, it sucks, but it will be worth it. Trust me.
If he actually thinks hes going to make a career thats going to last more than 10 years as a system admin, hes going to be wrong, VERY wrong.
Eventually servers will maintain themselves, lets not forget the system admin market is not in demand and hes not going to get paid a decent wage for much longer.
What he should do is go to college, get a Good 4 year degree, maybe work as a system admin via intership, Then when he graduates from college he can continue on as a Sys Admin.
He needs to get his degree so he can adapt to the times, when the time comes, Hes going to have to get a new job, wheres he going to go 11 years from now? or 20? Does he really want to go to college at age 30? By then he'll be far behind.
Look, you have to build your nest egg as soon as possible, that is
A. If you want to retire ever.
B. If you want to have kids.
C. If you want a house, car, or anything.
He needs a degree to have a stable career, he can get a job with just a diploma, they'll hire him as a sys admin, it will be his job, but when they dont need him anymore, hes gone, jobless.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I've had a number of different jobs in the tech arena now, from systems administration to Web development to writing and editing, as well as doing other things on a freelance basis, like consulting and even illustration. And no, I didn't go to school -- which isn't to say that anybody else shouldn't go.
Whether you go or not, though, my advice is to diversify your skillset as much as possible. And if you want to concentrate on some "top" skills that will get you farthest ahead, then forget about sysadmin and forget about programming. Bone up on your communication skills. Take English classes, take public speaking, take debate. Learn to communicate effectively. On top of that, read the newspaper, listen to NPR, and learn how the world works outside the server room. It'll all help keep you afloat a lot more than knowing Unix ever will, cuz 19-year old Unix gurus are a dime a dozen.
Breakfast served all day!
This is advice from someone who didn't take it himself. I went to college, but didn't finish. It never stood in my way because I went into software development and I had already been doing it for years before I went into the workforce full-time.
That said, I think a college education can be invaluable, if you're into it. If you're not, don't go and waste your parents' or your own money. If you go to college, go because you want the education, and I'm not just talking about an education in computers. If that's all you really want, then just get your certifications and go into the workforce.
College isn't much of a preparation for a particular job, so much as a general education, which I think everyone needs. One of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain is, "Never let your schooling interefere with your education." My personal translation that I live by, is "Don't limit your education to your schooling." Education is a lifelong process that shouldn't end until you die.
I was always a horrible student in English, but I discovered in the "real" world, being literate, in speaking and in writing is very important. While it may be wrong, many people, myself included, judge a person's intelligence, to a large degree, by their literacy. If people write poorly, I tend to think less of their intelligence. Is that fair? Maybe not, but you'll find it's quite common.
Education in other subjects is just as important, for a variety of reasons, but in general, to be an interesting and interested member of the human race. There's a lot more to life than your job, and an education, formal or otherwise, adds a lot of dimensions to your life.
But that's just my degree-less opinion.
1. Why do you think that I would not go on to get a degree later on? Or that I've even started?
2. Why does one need to advance? Perhaps I like being a sysadmin, perhaps I don't want to do anything else, perhaps $65k/year is more then enough for me and my family?
I never understood this, I know people that do shit work, digging holes, and they're the happiest people in the world, they can more then care for their needs and the needs of their families, yet people like you look down on them. Perhaps it's because you've spent all this time, energy, and money so you can get all this extra income, only to find out that you're not happy, and that your life, while filled with all the latest gee-whiz stuff, sucks..
Free Mac Mini
I'll start off by admitting that I am infact a college grad. However, I'm not working in my field, physics. I've been a professional programmer ever since I graduated. Here's the rub: I have zero formal education in the field. I built my skills up on the side during college and started getting progressively more responsible jobs afterwards. My physics education has been useful indirectly(analytical skills, math knowledge etc), but has only rarely been directly applied. Do I regret wasting four years on an education that hasn't helped me professionally? Heck no! I loved physics. I'm just not really good enough to make it as a scientist. I went for it and didn't make the cut. No regrets whatsoever for trying. Just a few for not making it.
So what does this mean for your plans? College is not a trade school, and frankly, thats what much of the computer field amounts to, a trade or vocation. I'd say you're better off getting some certs and some junior college creds if you want to be a sys admin. Meanwhile if you go to college, study something you love for its own sake. Looking at what college costs now as opposed to when I went, I'd really have to ask myself whether the skills I would acquire would be worth it. However, the cautionary note here is that a lot employers in the IT field want a bachelors. Some state "or equivalent experience", but most want that BA or BS.
No computer lab worth its name would accede to such demands. In fact, such demands should convince them entirely that you're more interested in flashy-looking paperwork than actual learning, and hence are not a good candidate.
Accepting often-meaningless industry certs does not demonstrate that a department is interested in real-world skills, it demonstrates that the department is desperate for cash and trying to gain corporate sponsorship. Real skills taught by real colleges last far longer than any industry cert. Do you really think a month of studying Swing or MFC is worth as much as a month learning what data structures are all about?
That's why my degree will last for life, but the MCPs who took Visual C++ 6 several years ago are now "uncertified" again, in spite of the fact that the tool hasn't actually changed a bit since then and is still in mainstream use. The vast majority of industry certifications are money-spinning, code-monkey-developing cash cows, and nothing more. (Incidentally, having recently been in the job market myself, this seems to be how they are perceived by employers looking to fill good positions. Compare and contrast with proper degrees, please.)
And speaking of starting salaries, if you think some pro cert is going to get you a higher salary than a degree at the start of your career, you're gravely mistaken. Many places will file you in the circular cabinet without a second thought if you aren't degree-qualified, however many TLAs, ETLAs and so on you write on your resume. I don't think it's going to be hard to beat a starting salary of $5/hour at McD's.
For whom? Not any employers, programmers or sysadmins I know, at any level of experience, that's for sure.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
College is not needed for most computer/IT/internet careers ... at least not to be able to do them. I've seen too many "idiots with degrees" to ever believe that college makes much of a difference. And this applies whether the career is programming or system administration or network administration.
What college will do for you is:
I may be hiring by the end of the year in a business I'm still trying to get launched. I can tell you this. I'd much rather hire someone coming out of the military than someone coming out of college. Good people can learn new technology. Bad people are stuck in what they managed to learn some of. Learning takes discipline, and you get far more of that in the military than in college. Not everyone coming out would be worth hiring, but even fewer coming out of college will be ... and fewer still coming out of high school. I'll be looking more for solidity in understanding basic logic and strategy, then in understanding any particular system. I'd rather hire a smart person with an MCSE (which is otherwise worthless) than a dumb person with an RHCE for doing Linux administration.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Answer:The Geeks from MIT with their degrees.
Why? Because these geeks will eventually have the experience, the degree, and the status.
IF you dont have a degree, Have fun competiting with the third world programmers and technicians in China, India, Pakistan, etc.
IF you didnt read the last slashdot article, Americans are being fired so these cheaper equally qualified workers from outside the country can take their job.
I recieved posts from people who said "Well to compete you have to provide better value"
The only way to provide better value is to have a better education. People in Pakistan may have more experience, more talent, and more skill but you still have to survive! You wont always be the smartest and best, you have to survive anyway, and when you compete with people who may be BETTER than you, you have to work HARDER than them to win, meaning getting your degree.
Lets see what slashdot thinks.
Quote from rmjiv rmjiv's profile
How about providing a better value? There will always be costs associated with manufacturing products at distance from use. This is as true of software as it is of cars. For cars, the extra costs is in the delivery. For software, it's in the communication of requirements (and the changing of requirements, etc.). If value = (quality / cost) then you don't necessarily need a lower cost to provide equal or greater value. I suggest reading Yourden's Rise and Resurrection of the American Programmer. It's an interesting read, and might even cheer you up.
BTW, if you can't provide a better value, why do you believe you deserve a job as a programmer?
She came sliding down the alleyway like butter dripping off of a hot biscuit."
Quote from Whitehawke WhiteHawke's Profile
Actually, I'm not worried about this for a lot of reasons:
1) As a skilled and reasonably experienced (7 years) developer, I'm better than most (though certainly not all) of the developers from the Third World.
2) I can actually interview on-site. Making a face-to-face impression is a HUGE advantage.
3) Companies don't even like to let people telecommute if they have a choice; they like to have people in-house, under their eye.
--Dave Storrs
These are some of the opinions of people at Slashdot, it seems they all see my point. Get a degree, or be replaced by Muhammed from Pakistan, or Wong Fei Lee from China.
You dont have a choice. Its survival of the most educated not the most talented.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac