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World's First Hydrogen Fuel Cell Powered Island
Albanach writes "According to this article in The Herald Newspaper, the island of Islay, on the West coast of Scotland is set to become the world's first Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered island. Scientests at Napier University wish to use the existing Wave Power Station to treat sea water and store the resulting hydrogen in fuel cells. The first plan is to power a building, moving on to powering the entire island in a decade."
"Powered Island" != "mobile island which moves because of Hydrogen Power".
but this is just one more reason to drink scotch from Islay.
It's not only delicious, but environmentally friendly too!
I can just see it now, a little island scooting around the atlantic using sea water as fuel. Hehe.
Think nothing is impossible? Try slamming a revolving door.
R.
So they're using a completely renuable resource, namely wave power, to separate sea water into O2 and (2) H2.
This is a great idea for any region with significant ocean frontage. Unfortunately, it is only a great idea in such locations. We can't fuel the US gas glutton SUVs via this method, there just isn't enough ocean frontage for all the soccer-moms.
Kudos to a truly self-powered island!
"You worthless post!"
-Shakespeare, 2 Gentlemen of Verona, 1. 1. 147
I've been hearing about hydrogen fuel cells for so long now, I'm glad to finally see some progress. What I've heard, though, about it is that "battery-ifying" the hydrogen (turning it into fuel cells) makes up for the pollution your saving by using the fuel cells. Is this still the case, does anyone know? Or is it actually environmentally friendly now from creation to use?
P.S. What's been up with Slashdot lately? It's been really weird.
I understand that life's not fair, just why is it never unfair in my favor?
Else, why would they have so many distilleries on that little piece of land?
of getting some hydrogen! Surely it would be more efficient to use the electricity from the wave power and send it to people's homes rather than using it to electrolyse the water into hydrogen, then burning the hydrogen?
Video Game cheats, hints a
you do not save energy because of that. The point is that you can do waves->electricity->hydrogen->transport-& gt;electricity->consumer device you don't have to plug in.
Once the hydrogen fuel cell is complete, my plan for world domination will be one step closer to completion! I must only get my secret island stronghold fully operational, then kick off all the islanders, and I can blackmail the United Nations for... 5 BILLION DOLLARS! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
The wave-power station is used to produce the electricity to electrolyse the water into hydrogen and oxygen.
Video Game cheats, hints a
Hey! I just read the article, and it appears that I was flat out wrong! Oops.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
This is bullshit. Cuba has been hydrogen-fuel-cell powered for decades.
I don't know if it was your meant to troll, but troll you did.
Cuba may have made some efforts to use clean, renewable energy sources (wind, wave, solar) but it's also made considerable effort to use dirty, finite sources as well, including nuclear power.
The nuclear power plant at Juragua has been under construction since 1983. It's not yet been completed, so it's not up and running, but Cuba is still trying to get the plant productive.
Unsurprisingly, for what it calls "safety concerns", the US isn't too keen to see that happen - apparently, it's OK for the US to have nuclear power plants all over the country, nuclear powered ships and submarines and even to launch nuclear powered satellites but God forbid that some communists 200 miles off the coast of Florida should want to use nuclear power too.
It's true that these concerns aren't totally unfounded as the type of reactor that the plant uses (the Soviet-designed VVER-440) doesn't have an exemplorary track record but let's remember that while the USSR had Chernobyl, the US had Three Mile Island.
By withholding its funding to the International Atomic Energy Agency - an overly-aggressive and short-sighted attempt to pressurise that body into abandoning all assistance that its giving Cuba to safely complete and operate the plant - the US is effectively shooting itself in the foot. By doing everything it can to make sure that the Cuban plant isn't built, the US is only ensuring that cost-effectiveness and completion at any cost are the paramount in Cuba's considerations, at the expense of safety.
Yet elsewhere, the US is spending millions to make sure that similar Soviet-designed plants are as safe as possible. Overall, a rather naive approach by US legislators - not the first time and it won't be the last either.
(So, in a way, there is a capitalist conspiracy, but not where you were looking.)
But I digress. Cuba obviously isn't 100 percent wave powered and, frankly, it's never likely to be. Wave power stations cost money too and, if you've got chronic power shortage problems like Cuba has, they're far less cost-effective than the alternatives.
On the other hand, Islay is hoping that its wave power station may soon provide all the energy that it ever needs - a noble goal, well worthy of our praise and good wishes.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
This development of alternative fuels powering large areas is indeed quite encourageing...
OK, I know you're trying to pass yourself off as CmdrTaco but can you spare us the obvious atrocious spelling mistakes please?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
You're right, it isn't perfectly efficient. But, efficiency isn't the most essential aspect of power production. Usability is.
Sadly, the consumer's use of electricity doesn't vary in proportion to the tide. If it did, and the tide always produced exactly the right amount power to keep everyone's lights on then it would be best to pipe the electricty directly from the water to your power outlet. But, that's not the case.
Fuel cells allow them to store the power and distribute it as needed. This ends up being most efficient in the long run because the water-driven power station only needs to produce power equal to the usage averaged over a period of time. It dosen't need to increase production during peak hours and won't be wasteful during off-peak hours. The fuel cells take care of that.
I think if you re-read the original article you will see that hydrolysis is powered by wave energy, you know, ocean waves, not light waves.
Also, may I point you at a simple explanation of how fuel cells work? It has this cool animated gif, displaying the process. Note: no turbines.
There is this really cool tool on the web, called google, it is a search engine. You can use it to look things up, before you post stuff, preventing you from looking like a complete dope. You should try it out!
Yes, let's. You certainly don't.
1: Seawater is made out of Hydrogen and Oxygen (with lots of energy in the bonds)
No, the energy of a water molecule is lower than that of hydrogen and oxygen in pure form. You have to add energy to the system to break water down. It's an endothermic reaction. If there were lots of energy "in" the bonds within water, water would burn.
2: Solar panels at the sea locations provide the energy, albeit slowly, to electrolyze the water to the gaseous components. H 2 and O2.
Yes, they're electrolyzing hydrogen out of the seawater. No, they're not generating the electricity from solar panels. They're using a plant that generates electricity from the motion of the waves.
3: The H2 is stored until used in Hydrogen Fuel cells. Combining of Hydrogen gas, Oxygen gas and heat give lots of heat. This turns turbines.
No, not even partial credit for this one. The hydrogen is stored in tanks of some kind: "bottled" is the term they used. Proton exchange membrane fuel cells generate electricity directly from a reaction with the hydrogen (which is fed to the cell from the tank) and the oxygen in the air. You get electricity and heat, along with pure water for exhaust. There's not necessarily a turbine involved at all, although for maximum efficiency in a stationary installation you could conceivably capture the heat and use it to drive a turbine so as to increase your electrical output. But that's not really necessary; a fuel cell makes electricity all by itself.
No need to comment on your blather about solar cells; there aren't any involved. Nobody stores hydrogen in metal form as this requires temperatures near 0K. You could store it in liquid form cryonically, but it's more often stored as compressed gas at high pressure.
And the brethren went away edified.
We all know that when we use hydrogen power the waste is water vapor.
:)
Won't all this vapor make the climate much wetter causing it to rain more and so on?
Plus since from what I've been told the vapor comes from the hydrogen mixing with oxygen in the air. Won't this also lower the oxygen content of the air?
Please tell me I'm completely off my rocker.
Or better yet explain why
Thank you.
I know I'm going to hell, I'm just trying to get good seats.
---"It doesn't matter how inefficient it is if the source of the all the energy is free (minus startup costs)."---
That's the key. The BIG issue here is break-even. You cant go over 100%(cause of thermodynamics), but you can compare efficency of that plan to that of Standard Oil (semi-pun intended). And no, it's not all startup coses and minimal maintenance. YOu know those big heavy propane drums? Well, the hydrogen drums will have to be much heavier and costlier, because H2 can break open microfractures in seals.
According to the article, the plant produces 500 kilowatts.
Btw, even if these answers aren't so great, it's still a cool experiment - but you have to cite more details than the article does to reasonably brag that you'd save the world except that the evil oil companies won't let you. :(
Someone joked "Won't anyone think about the rotation of the Earth?"
The question has a much more serious ramification than the jokester may have realized:
The Earth is slowing down and will eventually break this system.
The Moon ya see is creating these things called tides that this generation plant is at least partially dependent upon.
The friction of the water being drug across the surface of the Earth by the moon is slowing decelerating the earth. Eventually the Moon will become geosynchronous with the Earth, and the lunar tides will cease.
If lunar tides cease to exist, ocean temperatures will likely equalize a little (less water movement at all), and so winds will become less intense. Lower wind speeds mean lower waves (wind and tides are the major causes of waves).
This may not really be the long term soution they think it is.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Well, their whiskey is clearly too good to use for fuel...
Mats
How appropriate that my favorite C2H5OH, made by Laphroaig on Islay, will one day be manufactured entirely using H.
::Colz Grigor // I'll take donations of it, too!
is this sponsored by any eco-freaks?
Are you one of those fake readers created by US oil companies?
Can't be less efficient than drilling oil in some far off country like the USA and shipping it 3000 miles to be used...
Say you want to drive a clean car. You have an electrical engine. You have to store your energy somewhere, since draging an extensioncord along the road is not a viable solution
You can charge inefficient, mostly very heavy bateries at home, or use the electrical energy to create hydrogen, a light substance that can easily be used to generate electricity for your car again.
The last option is certainly viable.
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
I'm sorry but isn't waves renewable, it would be even better than wind-power if they switched from oil to water in the hydralic system that gives the power.
Hydrogen and fuelcells is only the infrastructure for the energy. There would probably not be a better solution than getting the oilcompanies to transport hydrogen over the world. The origins are still electricity which would probably come from wind or solar power which there are plenty of everywhere. Even if they were to use natural gas from oil-production, hey they burn it for no use today anyway...
So, will we be seeing oygenated whiskey as Islay's Next Big Thing? It could conceivably slow or prevent the loss of brain cells. It's a pity they're not going to produce Helium (squeak)...
(this is not a
Plus a few hundred thousand who are there in spirit.
The world's finest whiskies come from this little tiny island! Who does NOT know where it is? (At least, somebody with a small interest in whisky?)
:-)
Bowmore, Laphroiagh, Ardbeg, Lagavulin, Port Ellen, Bruichladdich, Caol Ila and Bunnahabhain -- eight distilleries on this island, each one of them producing a fantastic malt. (Though my favorite right now is a 17yo Ardbeg.)
Sadly though, some of these stills have been dozed...
Seriously, what do they need hydrogen for? They have plenty of fuel, just tap from the stills
I wonder what the efficency is of wind and wave powered electolosis of water is.
could green power derived from nature be the best way to extract hydrogen from water as it is constant and basicly 24-7?
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Cuba can't even make cigars right anymore. Seriously, talk to any tobaccanist, even if they still prefer Cubans, they'll concede that they're not overwhelmingly considered the best as they once were. If Cuba can't even make cigars well, then I'd say concerns about nuclear power plants are well founded.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I'm shocked - SHOCKED! -- that you could think such a thing! Next, you'll be suggesting that the US forced out the head of the body that monitors compliance with international chemical weapons treaties -- even though the USA had ALREADY been granted an unprecedented waiver allowing them to just deny the inspectors access to any facility, without needing to give even an explanation -- because he was saying that it wouln't be a problem to get into Iraq and verify that, in fact, they have no more WMD,and that would remove the US's pretext to bomb a few thousand more women and children to bits.Good heavens, people may then start to wonder if the US forced Mary Robinson out of office as the head of the UNHCR (high commission on refugees) because she spoke up for the human rights of the civilians being massacred in Jenin, and that might slow sales of US tanks, planes, bombs and so on to Israel. They might even suspect that perhaps the Bush administration feels that, because they've got more hydrogen bombs than anyone else, they can do whatever the fuck they feel like, to anyone, anywhere, any time, without needing an explanation more valid than "it's in our best interest". You must surely be some sort of anti-American terrorist hippy communist drug-dealer.People like you should be secretly arrested,imprisoned without trial or access to legal representation, or in short, "disappeared". Oh, wait --
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
Perhaps the most important and certainly the "cleanest" storage method for H2.
Sodium Borohydride (soap).
Chrysler even made a minivan that uses it. It acts as the H2 storage medium and is easily 're-energized'. Think about it. No explosive H2 to mess with. You get in a wreck and the only thing that leaks out is soap and water. Clean streets!
It took eighteen years to get one on-line in the US... what's so bad about 20?
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
> Metal Hydride storage functions at room temperature.
a lhydrofact.h tml
u 48 8-1.htm says "Livermore physicists have the best evidence yet that deuterium, a heavy form of hydrogen, is metallic at pressures as low as 50 GPa with temperatures near 8000 K. These conditions are near those expected in Jupiter's interior."
Yes, but when the original clueless poster said "in metallic form" he probably meant metallic hydrogen.
Which apparently can exist as a liquid at relatively high temperatures and huge pressures:
http://www-phys.llnl.gov/H_Div/GG/met
"they found that metallization occurs at pressure equivalent to 1.4 million times Earth's atmospheric pressure, nine times the initial density of hydrogen, and at a temperature of 3000 K (5000 F). Because of the high temperature, the
hydrogen was a liquid."
(They did cool it to 20K before hitting it with a shock wave though).
http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2000/split/pn
Not that we're likely to be mining Jupiter's core for fuel anytime soon.
rant
A lot of the discussion has been around the production of the hydrogen for the fuel cells. An interesting side note: California Solar Center has a weekly new clipping service that, this week, has this article about scientists discovering huge, natural stores of H2 gas. From the article:
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
Plus a few hundred thousand who are there in spirit.
Or perhaps you meant "in spirits"?
It'll be a sad day when some greenie activists get around to declaring the traditional methods of producing a nice peaty single malt to be environmentally unsuitable and go about forcing a change. Some things just weren't meant to be good for us, just good.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
The existing infrastructure for transporting natural gas is unfortunately insufficient to transport hydrogen gas.
The hydrogen atom is the smallest one around and tends to leak like crazy if given the chance. This is part of the reason why hydrogen power is so expensive. A valve that would stop propane or methane flow looks like a wide open door to hydrogen gas!
Cheers,
Colin
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
I heard NASA already has a solution to this, they're going to attach solar powered wings to the moon. Moon Wings!
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
What you're proposing (charging a battery and then discharging it) is no better, in fact in many ways it is worse. I can't find a good site to explain in depth how a recharagable battery works, but, remembering from my intro chemistry class it's an oxidation reaction at your anode and the corresponding reduction reaction at your cathode, and it's reversed to recharge- hydrogen brings the advantage of portability (it's easier to transport hydrogen than it is to transport nickle metal hydride) and, from what I've seen, increased practical efficency.
-bugg
Please publish some sort of evidence to back up your claim about Cuba!
There are these cute little things that you find on many web pages called hyperlinks. If you followed the first one that I included in my posting then you'd have the evidence that you want.
Of course, you could try using your own initiative and perform your own web searches on Juragua, the IAEA, and Cuban power generation in general but I guess that would be too much to ask.
After all, if you can't be bothered to follow a simple link what are the odds that you'll fire up Google, Alta Vista, Yahoo or whatever to do any research of your own?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Imagine your neighbour was putting up a shed in his back garden that overlooked the sandpit that your kids played in. But, because he's never done something like this before he's enlisted the help of the expert builder who lives down the street to help him make sure that the shed's built safely (using the appropriate materials and methods, etc) so that it won't accidentally fall over and squash your kids one day.
In that scenario, why on earth would you stop the good samaritan from making sure that the job was done well? Especially when you know the alternative is that your neighbour will still build the shed but is bound to do a less than perfect job of it?
Why wouldn't you want that shed to be the safest shed in the world?
Hint: because not wanting your neighbour to have a shed at all is clouding your better judgement.
Some people would call this pig-headedness. Others would call it cutting your nose off to spite your face. Or shortsighted. Me? Well, I just call it dumb.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg