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Zeppelins on Patrol?

Our Man In Redmond writes "Everything old is new again: The Seattle Post-Inteligencer is reporting that NORAD is considering deploying zeppelins along the west coast and Canadian border to keep an eye out for terrorists. Larger than jumbo jets, easier to repair/upgrade than satellites, this may be an idea whose time has come. Again."

19 of 261 comments (clear)

  1. Fly by Konster · · Score: 5, Funny

    The result of one of these flying into a building would be similar to me bouncing a marshmallow off of your forehead.

    It might catch you off guard at first, then piss you off as the shock and abject fright wore off, but no real harm would come to your forehead. The fate of the marshmallow wouldn't be the same, however, and this is to be expected.

    1. Re:Fly by WhaDaYaKnow · · Score: 3, Funny

      The result of one of these flying into a building would be similar to me bouncing a marshmallow off of your forehead.

      Uhm, not exactly. These things do have a structure, it's not a balloon.

      So it's maybe more like throwing, say, an egg at your forehead. (unboiled)

      The difference between a Jet hitting a building and a Dirigible hitting one is then more comparable to me throwing the egg versus using a high power canon to fire the egg at your forehead.

      Be warned though, I _can_ throw it hard enough to do some damage.

    2. Re:Fly by delcielo · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Allah Akbar!"
      BOING!
      "Damn it."

      "Badal!"
      BOING!
      "DAMN IT!"

      etc...

      --
      Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
  2. Nothing to do with "Terror" by sane? · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Come off it, just how is this supposed to fight terrorism ?

    High altitude balloons are hardly likely to trouble an Arab terrorist coming in on the American Airlines redeye service. Let alone the domestic terrorist who lives in Florida and mails you Anthrax.

    Nope, they are useful for three things: observation, communication relay and radar. Now either someone is trying to hop on the 'terrorism' funding bandwagon, or someone is attempting to hide a technology that effect civil liberties under the same cover.

    My personal guess is both. Someone has finally worked out that cruise missiles are easy to knock up and a threat to US cities - hence the need for good look down 24hour radar coverage. At the same time, an observation platform that could hover over a city, watching everyone, but not seen by anyone, has certain advantages.

    Neither really does much to prevent the average terrorist - but its a nice way to sell your system.

    1. Re:Nothing to do with "Terror" by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The LZ129 (Luftschiffe Hindenburg) was originally designed to be inflated with helium. However, the americans would not sell helium to DELAG (Deutsheluftschiffegesellshaft) because it had strategic value (the WW-1 zeppelin raids over London were still fresh memories then), so they had to inflate it with helium.

      During a subsequent refit, after one or two seasons, staterooms were added since hydrogen provides more lift than helium.

      The movie "The Hindenburg" does a very good job at recreating the luxurious interior (the grand piano was made out of aluminium; the lavish duralumin armchairs weighed something like 5 pounds each). The LZ-128 also appeared in the Indiana Jones "The last crusade" movie, but don't expect much in terms of historical accuracy (the LZ-128 DID NOT have aircraft launch ramps!!!)

      But the LZ-128 was not the last passenger zeppelin built: the far more luxurious LZ-129 (Luftschiffe Graf Zeppelin II) was completed shortly before the fateful New Jersey crash, but never entered revenue service. It was instead used for nazi tract spreading, and was promptly broken-up for aluminium when the war broke out.

  3. What the fuck?! by T.Hobbes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This will be of no use against any terrorist. Even if terrorists did attempt to cross the border outside of official channels (rather than use fake IDs, sailing a boat into a harbour, or simply live in the states themselves, they would be less than .1% of the total number of people trying to skip across the US-Canadian border or any other border. The rest would be boardertown locals, drug smugglers (we all know how effective the war on drugs has been, right?), and immigrants. Already, they try to and fail at stopping two of these groups from crossing the boarder, and in Mexico they even get flashy night-vision kit and a wall. It dosen't work. This won't either - more information just means you know more of what's going on. It dosen't mean you can be everywhere at once. The Zepplins will stand out of TV, however.

  4. Gotham City by DarkZero · · Score: 4, Funny

    All you need now is a few supervillains and a well-meaning, but deeply troubled borderline psychopath in a batsuit and all of the West Coast's cities will officially be entered in the Gotham City look-alike contest.

    (Yeah, so only about five people will get this joke, but all five of them are going to get a good laugh out of it.)

    1. Re:Gotham City by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 3, Funny
      (Yeah, so only about five people will get this joke, but all five of them are going to get a good laugh out of it.)
      Looks like they had moderator points, too!!!
  5. Re:Larger than a Jumbo? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 3, Informative

    Iron oxide, mixed with powdered aluminium.

    Read that again: Iron oxide, mixed with powdered aluminium.

    Not got it yet? Basically, that's what thermite is. Go and Google for thermite, or thermite reaction, and see what turns up...

    I watched a documentary about it a couple of years back, in which a recent investigation turned up fabric samples from around the time the Hindenburg was built. They had been tested for fire resistance, and were clearly labelled something along the lines of "Don't use this stuff, it's worse than no fireproofing".

  6. Re:Larger than a Jumbo? by redcliffe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That was because the Hindenburg was painted with rocket fuel. The same stuff that powers the shuttles SRB's.

  7. This is utterly ridiculous. by swaic · · Score: 4, Insightful


    Twice as big as a jumbo jet and soaring twice as high, they may soon be deployed to guard Canada and the United States, scanning for intruders on the Pacific Northwest's long coastline and international border.

    To guard against attacks? How is this going to prevent a determined person from putting a truck bomb in front of a federal building, or preventing someone from flying another plane into a building after coming up with yet another ingenious way of taking control of the plane.

    When was the last time the US had a missile coming from across the oceans to strike them? NORAD detects just about everything airborne, so they'll know if they're under attack. However this will do nothing to stop someone sitting at the end of a busy airport with a shoulder launched SAM and take out a couple planes.

    This is just another ridiculous idea to give the American people a false sense of security. Now don't get me wrong. There may be some merit in these ideas, but I just don't see them. Can someone please enlighten me?

    1. Re:This is utterly ridiculous. by joshki · · Score: 5, Informative

      These are supposed to replace the NATO planes that have been flying AWACS missions over the US since september 11th. They are obviously not going to stop a truck bomb -- but they do give us "eyes and ears" in the sky to look for those jetliners that are off course and heading towards a tall building. Fighters can't see very far -- they need an "eye in the sky" to direct them, and that's what these things would be doing. My guess is that they're a whole lot cheaper to operate than the NATO AWACS aircraft that have been up since September 11th -- also they're much more sustainable -- they can stay up a lot longer without refueling...

      --
      I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
    2. Re:This is utterly ridiculous. by inKubus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      False sense of security? Sorry, that was for the first 6 months. Now it's captialization on the IGNORANCE of the American people. It's amazing that most people are really dumb enough to accept this as being "anti-terrorism".

      In reality, this is just stupid. Then again, the American people will never get a chance to decide because we don't really decide anyway.

      Television decides for us, tells us what to think about the matter, and then we just shrug and go to work.

      I think there needs to be a citizen's veto system:

      Basically, it would be a website ("secure") with a database/list of EVERY U.S. government program. You can run a search, you can browse by category. Next to each program is a check box.. If you, the citizen, feel as though a program is a useless shill and waste of money, you simply click the check box, and submit your veto.

      Seriously, if we do not allow our "democratic" system (which is over 226 years old) to evolve up to our current communication capabilities, we are all going to be lost.

      Of course, even though something like this would be EASY to implement, congress would never give Americans that much power.

      Why? Because they like their jobs, which pretty much consist of accepting money from big business to make laws favorable to said big business. As if they are working for US. This is all mental masturbation. We work for them. We go to our shitty jobs day in and day out, hoping that maybe tomorrow will be better. And we want to do something to change the world but we CAN'T because we are POWERLESS. I thought this was a democracy, but it isn't. It's a REPRESENTATIVE democracy, and the representatives don't represent the average joe; they are rich fucks with fathers and grand-uncles who "served" in congress years before them.

      We are the ones who build this great nation, yet they just fuck around with it and spy on us to make sure we aren't trying to "take away their power" or are "terrorists." Guess what guys, nobody cares.

      Anyway, got off on a rant there, but I was just thinking about an idea I've had for quite sometime, actually since the rise of the WWW in the early 90's: Why not CHANGE the system and make democracy a little more DIRECT?

      Certainly it is within our abilities with our current communcations infrastructure to implement a simple CITIZEN's VETO system, which would allow we, the people, to institute checks and balances on the mainly corrupt government.

      And after that, we could change the entire system over to direct democracy. Personally, I have plenty of time on my hands; I could vote on each new bill in 5 minutes each night (after reading it and doing a little research). That would put the power back towards the people, and stop the idiots in Congress and the Sennate from making decisions about stuff which (as we see a lot) they really have no clue about.

      Let's face it, they are a bunch of old fuckers. Like your grandparents, they cannot use a PC worth a shit and they can hardly program a VCR. Sure, they can clean a gun, but frankly, these old fucks are on the way out.

      The next generation in congress will be the boomers, as all these 70-90 year olds die off, and we need to have a system in place so we, their kids, can keep them in check.

      It's a new world, folks. But it can be two ways: Their world, or OUR world.

      Why the FUCK are we still living in the 1700's when we have had 2 industrial revolutions and a space age?!

      More later.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
  8. Germany�s two approaches: Zeppelin vs. Cargolifter by HeinzHarry · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here in Germany, we have two companies building Airships - both for different purposes. One of them is about to file for bankrupcy - just within the next couple of days. While Zeppelin seems to be doing quite well offering flights to the public and building highgly priced Zeppelin Z1, Cargolifter stopped developing their product, the C160 Airship - which was supposed to carry 160 tons of payload - just yesterday. If there is a need for a hangar in the US... there is one spare in Germany pretty soon i guess.

    Here are two links to these companies and to an article about cargolifter:

    Zeppelin Germany

    Cargolifter Germany

    Yahoo on Cargolifter

  9. Re:the Hindenburg explosion by Gordonjcp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think the sabotage idea was discounted in favour of static arcing across to ungrounded panels. Whatever caused the fire, painting the aircraft with thermite in an oil-based paint probably wasn't a great idea.

  10. cruise missiles != ICBM by (H)elix1 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Someone has finally worked out that cruise missiles are easy to knock up and a threat to US cities Actually they are fucking difficult to make. It's significantly easier to make a nuclear warhead or a biochemical weapon than it is to make an ICBM to deliver it

    Cruise missiles are not much more than big RC airplanes with a payload. The German "buzz bombs" were a good example - a simple gyro and altimeter, a bomb, and enough fuel to make it over to London.

    Think of this with commodity hardware.

    The nav system is not too difficult - something to take the input and correct the course and altitude. A GPS with a COM port and a Palm Pilot makes this really easy (though mine are too clunky to actually put into anything that does not float).

    Power plant - don't think jet, think rotax. Since you are not looking for FAA certification, you would be surprised what you can stuff on an airframe. VW bug engines are used in a number of homebuilt projects.

    Payload. No clue, but I'm sure someone could manage.

    Anyhow, it is probably a mute issue. Cruse missiles are intended to execute an attack from a "safe distance" to prevent retaliation and also obscure where you are attacking from. Way too much harpoon in college... If the terrorist keep up with there current track record, they will just have someone drive/fly the payload in person. Those cruise missiles often have another name - kamikaze.

  11. What having boarder patrols would do... by Thomas+M+Hughes · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Quite simply, it would watch for people who are crossing the boarder at non-designated boarder crossings. The boarder between Canada and the US, from what I recall, is highly unguarded, and allows for basically anyone to pass over with no real effort. Furthermore, I believe any Canadian can waltz through legitimate checkpoints whenever they want, as long as they're not carring prohibited materials.

    Thus, anyone who intentionally avoids those checkpoints may be assumed to be transporting prohibited materials or prohibited people from Canada into the US. Legitimate people who wished to visit the US would cross through the boarder crossing, the 'terrorists' would skip those checkpoints, and these blimps would be better suited to spot such activity from high above for long periods of time.

    This operates under the assumption that Canadian customs processes aren't secure enough for the US, and thus we need to double check their work. For example, Canadians may freely come and go to Cuba, while members of the US may not. Thus, it stands to reason, that it'd be easier for a Cuban terrorist to enter Canada, and then sneak across the boarder to the US with his vile intentions.

    Of course, this does very little to stop new terrorist attacks, however the US political mindset right now seems to be 'any minor improvement should be done.' Flying blimps across the boarder decreases the chance of terrorists by a fraction of a fraction of a percent? Do it. Running around declaring people you don't like an Axis of Evil and invading them might stop the family of a suicide bomber from getting some money, go for it. I guess they thing every minor amount will eventually add up.

  12. More like a nerf by wirefarm · · Score: 5, Funny

    The article said that these things would only have a structure for supporting cargo, which, I'm guessing would be hanging about where a blimp's gondola is, so I guess the original assumption about the marshmallow might be true. (I have no idea why the author of he article kept referring to them as dirigibles...)

    I'm pretty sure that if you plowed any sort of non-rigid blimp into any sort of skyscraper, the blimp would do a minimum of damage before being punctured - though if it managed to break some windows first, the occupants of the building might be running around talking in squeaky voices from inhaling al that helium, which would make for some very confused 911 operators I'm sure...

    Cheers,
    Jim in Tokyo

    --
    -- My Weblog.
  13. Re:Larger than a Jumbo? by MtViewGuy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If I remember from that National Geographic documentary, the doping compound used on the Hindenberg was a combination of powdered aluminum and nitrocellulose. Which is the EXACT formula used on solid rocket fuel.

    Small wonder why when the airship burned there was almost no fabric cover left from the fire.

    A secret 1938 report inside the Zeppelin company confirmed that the doping compound was extremely flammable.