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An Offer Tivo Owners Can't Refuse
An anonymous reader pointed us to this little tidbit. The BBC paid Tivo (company slogan: "TV Your Way") to force owners' boxes to record some new program they wanted to push, which looks incredibly exciting. UK Tivo owners seem a little upset.
And what's stopping stations from turning off the commercial-skipping feature through similar bribery?
Oh that already happened years ago. NBC, CBS, and ABC are all early investors in Tivo, the PVR without the 30 second skip. (OK, it has a 30 second skip, but you have to "enable" that feature, it isn't on by default).
The "little upset" link wasn't; it just explained that the program "does not take up any of your recording capacity - it is stored in a seperate reserved space."
If it doesn't take up space, and will lower the overall cost of the unit by allowing another revenue stream for Tivo, and you don't have to watch it, and it doesn't interfere with the rest of your programming, why is this news? Am I missing something?
No but these "special feature" programs take up space.
... I don't want that happening to my Tivo, especially considering how much I paid for my box AND the monthly fee.
My US Tivo had a 30 minute BMW commercial in the Showcases that I didn't know about. It sat there for a long time until I realized that I was getting shorted 30 minutes. (I record as much as I can).
Next thing you know, a good idea (Tivo), gets consumed by a bad idea (forced infomercials) and it sucks for everyone.
Look at how much of the web is now unusable due to lack of content and nothing but advertising. Usenet used to be one of the best sources of information, now its one big spamhole
I stopped watching TV because the ads enraged me. Ditto radio. I've been keeping an eye on the Tivo on the off chance television ever becomes economical (eg- I can get sci fi without having to get 37 other channels I never watch). And now they're essentially spamming their userbase- what next? A hard drive full of Golden Girls and The O'Reily factor?
:P
Fuck that- if I want unrequested, unwanted bullshit in my space, I'll go check my hotmail account. The fact that Tivo is doing this violates the basic concept behind why the boxes are selling at all.
If TV were actually configurable, it would be a simple matter of dropping the offending network from your selection of channels. But it's not- users have the illusion of choice. Much like cokeheads- you can have it cut with ephedrine or vitamin b. Or asprin. But you can't have it pure.
Screw these guys, I'm going home.
PS - A huge clue grenade gets lobbed to whoever believes that
It does not take up any of your recording capacity - it is stored in a seperate reserved space. You still have 40 hours of recording capacity on a standard TiVo.
Why isn't that space mine to begin with?
You're absolutely right -- it's a little clip that goes and lives in TiVo central (usually "Showcases" or someplace similar).
It won't be recorded if you're watching live TV or already recording something else. It doesn't eat into your storage space, as it's stored in the TiVo's reserved space.
What this is is another fine example of Slashdot posting articles mindlessly and submitters submitting articles mindlessly.
Following the link posted in the article about TiVo users being upset has a list of 'known facts' about TiVo Enhanced Content.
> If you have another programme scheduled at the time the promo airs, then TiVo will record your scheduled programme and will not record the promo. Your own scheduled recordings always take priority.
> If you are watching Live TV at the time TiVo will ask permission to change channels to record the Promo. Note if you are not around to say no TiVo will go ahead. I *think* the buffer up to the time of the channel change will still be available.
As a TiVo user, this really doesn't bother me. It is a possible alternate source of revenue for TiVo, which is always good. I've noticed them before (as other US TiVO users) and I've watched a few.
As long as it's available as an option only on the front menu, doesn't take up my recording space (they use some 'reserved space'), it doesn't force me to watch it, and it doesn't otherwise restrain my usual TiVo use, I really don't think it's a problem at all.
The TiVo is a tool that changes your TV watching habits in such a way that you may not be exposed to new shows as a normal commercial-watching viewer. While it (on principle) bothers me that it ignores parental controls, especially for a show with bad language, this is a tolerable way of letting you know about new shows.
My question would be does it keep you from recording something else in that time slot?
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
Well, it would also be nice if you could:
1) Opt out of these in the future
2) Manually delete them in case the extra menu item annoys you that much.
Actually... the funny thing is that mine doesn't have a power switch. :-P
And seriously, is it that bad?
Reading the links tells you that it doesn't (or shouldn't) interfere with anything that you are watching or recording. One of the features i like the most about my TiVo is that it's always trying to record something even if i haven't set that time aside for something else. I can't see how it's a bad thing that TiVo gets more money to record something when the unit would otherwise be doing nothing else.
I mean come on slashdot drones, TiVo needs to make SOME amount of money to keep themselves alive.
Because Tivo wants to make a profit and not be sued out of existence by TV companies. The description in the article sounds like a non-disruptive way of letting TV folks promote their shows.
Anyways, you paid for 40 hours of recording time. You have 40 hours of recording time. Tivo doesn't owe you every inch of recording media in the box.
It sounds like a better plan than death by legislation.
(side thought: Maybe in the future shows won't battle for a good time slot, they'll battle for Tivo priority. 200k for a two-day guaranteed time span on everyone's tivo, 25k for a 4 hour span, etc.)
lol... no it was not downloaded over the phone line.. it would take weeks ;-)
TiVO in the states recorded show (car commercial) at 2 AM when you didnt have anything set to record...
I can't believe some of you suckers falling for
TiVo's line that "it doesn't use your storage
space at all, it uses some *different* space!"
Uh, huh, and which space on the box *I* bought
with *my* money is "not my space?"
It's just hilarious how gullable people are. Just
by phrasing things oddly or renaming things, people
can be convinced of anything.
And having a Pepsi logo tattood on your forehead, would never get in your way, either. You would never even notice. It would cost you nothing. Pepsi might even pay you to do it. So why don't you? There's no downside, right?
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
It obviously does use your space unless they somehow magicly enlarged the available storage in the unit to create the extra space.
There's no "control" issue here. [...] It's also not using up any available disk space, because the space it's stored in is restricted to TiVo software and brand content.
And that is not a control issue? If I buy the damn machine, who the hell are Tivo to tell me which parts of the harddrive I can use for what?
It is scary to think that modern consumers have become so accustomed to giving up there freedoms to machines, that you could write the above without realising that it is a contradiction in terms. Go reread everything that Stallman has written until you undertsand why it is not OK when software decides what we do instead of vice versa.
you could simply make sure your kids don't watch it. i mean, if it is on BBC, i don't imagine that you have your parental controls blocking that channel to begin with, and they could just sit down and watch it when it was live. how is that different? simply monitor what your children are watching... jeez. people make me sick. wanting the government or electronic boxes to parent thier children for them.
What is the big deal? Doesn't your Tivo already proactively record shows without your permission, shows that it "predicts" you might like? Nobody complains about Tivo doing that. Tivo and the BBC are now just influencing that existing algorithm (with cash money). This stupid BBC show is now just another OPTION on a list of choices. It's not like you are forced to watch this show against your will. This is not A Clockwork Orange or something..
cpeterso
You're jumping the gun just a tad.
It's almost certainly an oversight that's being addressed right now, number one.
And number two, "parental controls" aren't foolproof anyway. The only effective parental control is... drumroll please... a parent! Many programs out there still don't have a rating listed. I could think MASH is objectionable and not want my (non-existent) children to watch it, but it's not rated, and thus not blockable.
Even if you go the double-bladed method of using the V-chip in your TV, you get no further than going on the TiVo's guide data alone. If there is no rating broadcast or in the guide data, your children could be watching porn until the cows come home.
Deal with it. Lock up the power cords or the TV if it's that big of an issue.
Honestly, though, today's children hear and see far worse things in school than they do on television. Everyone needs to give up on this "oh, my innocent little children" bit and get with the times.
File under "High-tech product obeys manufacturer over owner."
You laugh now, but wait until your flying car automatically lands at a McDonalds every hour during any long trip. A feature they didn't tell you about when you bought it. In fact, one that didn't exist when you bought it...
Thank you, I'll take the product that you can't reprogram remotely. The one that works for me.
Argument 1: "It's coming from reserved space, so it doesn't affect your existing programs."
What if I have a 15 or 30 hour box (at basic), and some event (vacation) means I'm having trouble juggling just a few things I wanted -- in the meantime, space is "reserved" that could have been provided for my use (remember me, the one who bought the product for usability's sake).
In that sense, the reserved space affects my regular space, and that of anybody who purchases the box, because only so much "space" fits in a given box. If it's about making for both happy users and a healthy company, the money from people who prefer the "extra" space rather than reserved space may outweigh the (payoffs from networks minus lost subscriptions from angry users).
Argument 2: It doesn't pre-empt live television.
Mostly wrong, though it doesn't seem to pre-empt scheduled recordings. I often pause a baseball game and leave the room to take a phone call, for example, or leave it playing knowing that I can go back 20 minutes or so to catch Barry Bonds' record-tying home run.
On 60 seconds notice, a forced program changes the channel and loses the previous program buffer. Goodbye, user option to review what they might have missed, all because they weren't on guard with the remote to respond "yessir" or "nosir" to the equipment they own. Remember that is one of the prime selling points of the product, at the moment.
For you non-Euro-resident readers, the BBC already collects a gigantic toll from the population at large ('the license fee'; currently UKP112 for a colour TV ) for its budget, in exchange for what is generally regarded as among the best programming anywhere. While I have supported the BBC strongly in the past, this kind of activity essentially is extremely unethical for a number of reasons:
The BBC, through its joint ventures in the UK (particularly publishing and radio), North America and elsewhere, is already blurring the distinction between public monies (the license fee) and private finance to an unhealthy level. With this latest effort they lose a little more of their hard-earned reputation of objectivity in pursuit of coin, and more importantly, give the British public less of a reason in future to pay the fees.
Regardless of however small the payment was in the grand scheme of things, this was wrong. To think of it another way, 100% of the British television public paid for only a small subset of viewers (less than 1%?) to receive something that they probably didn't want. How is that acceptable?
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Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
You still have control of the hard drive. If you want to reformat it and blow away the operating system on them, you are completely able to do that. The Tivo just becomes a little less useful afterward.
If you don't pay for the Tivo service or just don't hook your Tivo up to the phone line, then you can stop your Tivo from downloading this content that you don't want on your hard drive. But then you won't get the cool features you bought the Tivo for which is automated recording of shows, guide data, etc.
His point is that if you pay for the Tivo service, you get the Tivo service and all the things that come along with it. Just like you pay for Internet service. If your ISP decides not to route port 80 traffic to you, they have that right, and you have the right to cancel your service if you don't agree with it.
First, no one's forcing you to watch the show. It simply appears as an option on the menu. You can ignore it as you wish. It's far less intrusive than the average banner ad; and ads don't stop you from viewing Slashdot. It's even less intrusive than Google text ads!
Second, the extra space on the Tivo was not something that you knew about when you bought it, and it did not affect your purchase of the Tivo in the least. When you buy one, you know that it's a sealed box. If someone wants to make a PVR libre, I'd be glad, but Tivo reserving a very small amount of space is completely normal for a corporation.
Finally, a number of people think it's bad that the program had "bad language" but that it overrode "parental controls". Talk about control. What gives you the right to decide what your children can watch? Tivo has a program downloaded to your box... but it doesn't override your schedule... but it doesn't record if you ask it not to... but it doesn't force you to watch it... but it doesn't take up any space... And you're outraged! But your children are being explicitly denied the right to watch a TV show, solely because it has some "bad language" (which isn't bad - would you rather your kids fist- or gun-fighting than swearing?), is completely fine. Listen to yourselves!
As many of you may or may not know, the BBC is subsidised by the government and consequently a proportion of TV license fees and taxes go towards it.
So now I find that the BBC is using some of my money pushing crap TV onto people's TiVo boxes!? WTF? Firstly, what's the point of a government-owned TV channel pushing it's own content on a private TiVo service? To get other channels to buy it? If it's crap, no-one will syndicate it anyway, but hey - the taxpayers paid for it to be made, so who cares! Secondly, does this alter viewing figures? Viewer ratings seem to be notoriously difficult to estimate/guess/ascertain, so what does a TiVo box do about it, is this going to give the BBC inflated figures?
So, thanks BBC. Instead of using my money to make cool documentaries, you force shit onto people's TiVos, pissing everyone off in the process.
There's no contradiction there.
I paid for a 20 hour PVR, and I got a 20 hour PVR. I have 20 hours to record, which is what I paid for, and an additional portion of the drive is dedicated to holding the operating system and any special content.
I haven't given up any freedom since outlaying the cash for the unit. It does exactly what was advertised, and I get exactly what I expected as per the manual, the ads, and the packaging.
If I wanted to, I could wipe the hard drive and load my own PVR software on it. There's nothing stopping me. But what's the point when the TiVo software and service are already there and do exactly what I was told they would?
My personal opinions about Stallman aside, the software's not deciding anything for me. If I expect it to run, it's unreasonable to expect it to not have someplace for the OS to live. I assume you must run LFS and code all your own programs, if you believe this nonsense -- after all, distributions decide for themselves how the directory structure is laid out, what cron jobs to install, what depends on what else, and how you manage your software. Even if you run Apache, you're forced to administer it in its own specific way -- it's telling you how to run it, how to code modules for it, and how to arrange your content. They're deciding what you do.
You could certainly say that my looking at it that way is unreasonable. After all, how else would it be expected to understand configuration directives? And that's exactly the issue with the TiVo. There are expectations and sensibilities we make on a case-by-case basis. If you can't see that, you've fallen headfirst into the cesspool and ill-thought ideas that is Stallman.
So when every device in my kitchen is online,
will Safeway pay Kelvinator to force my fridge
to order their milk?
Will my net aware Ford drive itself to Shell?
Is this the promised end? Or image of that horror? KING LEAR
His point is that if you pay for the Tivo service, you get the Tivo service and all the things that come along with it. Just like you pay for Internet service. If your ISP decides not to route port 80 traffic to you, they have that right, and you have the right to cancel your service if you don't agree with it.
Any service you are paying for covers only what data is sent from Tivo to you (as with your ISP). If Tivo uses the services to make the machine do things that are not in your interest, then they are using it to control you.
Claiming Tivo filters channels when you're still paying for them- something another poster mentioned- is sticking your head in the sand. With the web tools available these days, I can simply choose how militant I am about control of the ads I recieve. By default, I disallow pop-ups entirely. Flash is a waste of bandwidth, so those wind up being dropped as well. I honestly don't mind banner ads- some of them are interesting. At least on the sites I go to. I could argue one angle of "these cats need the revenue", but the fact is, some of the sites I visit plug things that I wouldn't have found out about if it wasn't for their banner ads. This is nice, and the potential enjoyment factor is worth the possible hassle.
On the other hand, I have yet to be exposed to a blasting, annoying as hell TV or radio ad that caters to something I'm interested in. I have zero use for cadillacs, depends, preperation H or beer. I could give a shit about the X-fest. It bugs me that I know about these things when I have no need or use for them. But then, I'm the sort of person that actually figures out what I need and then looks for a solution, rather than eagerly being led around by the nose.
The internet advertising environment can be configured by an educated end user on a more or less global level. The television and radio environments cannot- sure, you can flip around, but if you haven't noticed, most networks seem time things so when you flip, you hit another commercial break. You can take or tivo and fast forward or drop commercials, but you're still expending effort to do so. Not an effective solution.
On top of all of that, tv and radio are passive. The net is much more interactive, and I'll take that over the tube any day.